Talk:Route of the Borgias

Advertorial

this is completely unacceptable advertorial.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:04, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

Camino de Santiago or Camino del Cid and other many religious or cultural routes move a lot of tourism. Which is the problem??. The Route of the Borgias is the cultural heritage of the Borgia family in Spain. Where is the problem?. I can't understand you. I don't work in tourism, but is our cultural heritage and I love it. That's is all. Leave me work in peace in Wikipedia, please. Kind regards: --Valencian (talk) 18:28, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

The problems here are myriad. The page in the version you reverted to is set up as an advertisement overflowing with inappropriate content from contact numbers to meaningless hyperbole: "legendary" , "universal" , "splendour" etc. The bibliography consists of not a single work published after the tourist route was established and so cannot provide anything about the subject of this article which is: the tourist route/marketing campaign. There is no evidence that as an event or business scheme the "Route of the Borgias" meets any of the criteria for a stand alone article (which is all that matters, not that some other tourist trap has an article). -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:46, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

As of this version, I don't understand what the Route of the Borgias is. El Camino Real in California is an old trail that connected Spanish missions throughout California. That's pretty clear-cut. Is Route of the Borgias just a connection of all the various properties the Borgias owned? Is it an actual route, i.e. one long trail that runs through all of the properties, or did people draw an imaginary line to connect the dots? If the Borgias are notable, and they appear to be, and if this "route" is a real, established route other than just a tourist route, then maybe there's a good way to present this. But a lot of cities have informal tourist routes that aren't particularly noteworthy. There are tours you can take in Hollywood to visit all the different places where celebrities were murdered or otherwise died. That doesn't necessarily warrant an article... Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:49, 2 November 2015 (UTC)

The reverted material is clearly opinion/advertorial, being rife with "...is worth visiting", "...we can see", etc. It's not a route the anyone followed historically, afaics, so there seems to be little point in helping to promote this purely tourist trail. However, the collected material does appear to be quite a comprehensive guide to other WP entries so, with some decent copy-editing, perhaps it can be morphed into a List of Borgia places of interest or somesuch WP resource. Thoughts? jxm (talk) 20:38, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

"List of properties owned by the Borgia family?" or "...the Borgia family of Spain?" It would be nice to have another article to compare this to. We could just create a category "Properties owned by the Borgias" and call it a day if we're just going to create a quicky list. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 19:08, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

This is my opinion as author of the article, if it serves to clarify a little bit the topic. The Route of the Borgias covers the historical monuments where there lived or practised his power and those monuments that they constructed (palaces, etc) or that guard an important art gallery of the Borgia family. It is not a simple list of his properties or a list of the properties that they bought. It is a cultural route around the cultural heritage and the legacy of the Borgia family. Is the article important for the whole world in general?. Very probably, not. Is it important for those whom are interested on the history of the Borgia family?. For sure. Is it important for the cultural heritage of the Valencian Community and Spain?. Undoubtedly yes. This cultural route can realize anyone for his own account. It is not a question of a tour operator or that any company offers his services to realize this route. The route was promoted by the regional Valencian authorities and the Gandia Town Hall also, in the year 2007. The article treats of cultural and artistic heritage, not of tourism. If this cultural and artistic heritage attracts tourism, it is possible. I don't know. For sure that the article does not treat of a tourist route, It treats only of cultural and artistic heritage. Particularly, I think that the article is interesting for all the people or historians that are interested in the Borgias and also for the cultural heritage of the Valencian Community and Spain. My humble opinion is that the article should be respected and extended. Thank you very much for your attention.--Valencian (talk) 14:56, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for your work preparing this article - and for your thoughtful response on this Talk page. The basic problem is that the entry relies on just two external references, both of which are primary sources (see WP:PRIMARY) that were, as you point out, developed for regional promotion purposes. We have no useful evidence so far that the concept of this Route exists in any reliable secondary sources. Compare this to the Hippie trail article, for example, which draws upon various references and colloquial usage of the term in non-primary contexts. Since it the main text of this article outlines an actual cultural route can be followed by anyone, perhaps it might be better relocated to WikiVoyage or WikiTravel.... jxm (talk) 00:24, 20 January 2016 (UTC)