Talk:Russian mystery fires (2022–present)/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Coordinates & Map

This article would benefit from a column containing the coordinates of each location in the table and also plotted on a map. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.66.237.128 (talk • contribs) 08:07, 9 May 2022 (UTC)

@79.66.237.128: I added the map from Basque Wikipedia. Psiĥedelisto (talk • contribs) please always ping! 00:04, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

more here

Ozon warehouse fire

https://www.newsweek.com/fire-blaze-russian-warehouse-ozon-amazon-moscow-istra-video-1730465?amp=1


Victor Grigas (talk) 01:27, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Reuters article [1]. Mellk (talk) 01:37, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Another fire

At a metal plant https://www.newsweek.com/fire-russian-steel-plant-putin-ally-abramovich-video-1746238?amp=1

Victor Grigas (talk) 19:51, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

Train station

https://www.newsweek.com/moscow-fire-videos-show-smoke-billowing-around-key-train-stations-1760909?amp=1 Victor Grigas (talk) 21:45, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Mistake

The Ryazan gunpowder factory fire occurred ONE YEAR EARLIER, in 2021. Read the links you attach thoroughly 176.59.9.203 (talk) 21:20, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Siberian wildfires?

In 'see also' we've listed wildfires. I see no connection at all except for the word 'fire'. Error? Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:35, 20 December 2022 (UTC)

2022/12/23 Fire in Kemerovo nursing home

source: Al Jazeera English - At least 20 people died 213.118.94.49 (talk) 09:19, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

ebat fire

There is a lot of ebat fire in Russia. Ebat. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.32.151.247 (talk) 09:24, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

2022/12/23 Fire in Moscow military unit

https://www.newsweek.com/russian-military-unit-catches-fire-near-kremlin-1769367

https://vm.ru/news/1020834-rogozin-soobshil-o-smerti-ego-pomoshnika-pri-obstrele?utm_source=vm&utm_campaign=scroll&utm_medium=scroll

https://msk1.ru/text/incidents/2022/12/23/71922800/

Location on Google Maps: улица 3-я Соколиной горы, д. 10,

81.129.201.96 (talk) 10:18, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

2022/12/24 Kuban "Vega" shopping center fire

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1606929497953124354

https://euroweeklynews.com/2022/12/25/watch-another-russian-shopping-centre-on-fire/

Location on Google Maps: 45.3634071,40.1897158

81.129.201.96 (talk) 13:26, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

2022/12/26 Novosibirsk fire

https://mobile.twitter.com/russiasonfire/status/1607359111179411456

https://www.fontanka.ru/2022/12/26/71930372/

https://ngs.ru/text/transport/2022/12/26/71930261/

81.129.201.96 (talk) 13:40, 26 December 2022 (UTC)

2022/12/27 Persianovskii, Rostov military base fire

https://old.reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/zx5alv/probably_cigarette_smokers_military_base_of_the/

https://twitter.com/Kyivtodaycom/status/1608190759206850561

https://donday.ru/pod-novocherkasskom-gorel-korpus-150-j-motostrelkovoj-divizii.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.129.201.96 (talk) 23:49, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Location on Google Maps: 47.523344, 40.123138

81.129.201.96 (talk) 20:08, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

2022/12/30 Rostov fire

https://twitter.com/LeaderMichael1v/status/1608902439524274177

https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1608601331434160131

81.129.201.96 (talk) 19:16, 30 December 2022 (UTC)  DoneThelisteninghand (talk) 15:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

2023

We need to re-title to 2022-2023...I will move when I find out how. Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:20, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

2023/1/2 Perovo

https://russia.liveuamap.com/en/2023/2-january-military-enlistment-office-was-attacked-with-firebombs Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:31, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

Page name should not be “2022 …”

The name of the page is “2022 Russian mystery fires”, but the list extends into 2023. A rename or move is required, perhaps to “Mystery fires in Russia during Ukraine war”. JDAWiseman (talk) 18:47, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

@JDAWiseman: That's done now - I wonder whether you want to contribute on the question above? Cheers. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:15, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
I don’t love the choice of name. I would like the Ukraine war to end in 2023, but lack your confidence. So “… during Ukraine war” would better capture the sense of what is needed.
Which of the many questions? JDAWiseman (talk) 22:34, 5 January 2023 (UTC)
The question about reliable sources. I take on your point about the title, what WP terms the Russo-Ukrainian War began in 2014. There is ongoing discussion about the title of the article for the 2022 invasion. One solution proposed there which could be used here is "xxxx, 2022 - present". Thanks. Thelisteninghand (talk) 16:50, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
Alas, I don’t have sources — sorry.
Separately, “xxxx, 2022 - present” works for me, even though I’d prefer an en-dash (“–”). JDAWiseman (talk) 18:26, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
Agreed with "Russian mystery fires (2022-present)" for now. Wondering if 'mystery fires' is the best description, perhaps 'unexplained fires' or incidents is a better option in the future? Yeoutie (talk) 18:58, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Voronezh Aircraft Production Association

Voronezh Aircraft Production Association is apparently on fire : https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/russo-ukrainian-war/possible-explosions-and-large-fire-at-the-voronezh-aircraft-plant-in-russia/amp/ Victor Grigas (talk) 04:28, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 April 2023

Possible explosions and large fire at the Voronezh Aircraft Plant Ulitsa Tsiolkovskogo, 27, Voronezh, Voronezh Oblast, Russia, 394029 https://www.aviation24.be/miscellaneous/russo-ukrainian-war/possible-explosions-and-large-fire-at-the-voronezh-aircraft-plant-in-russia/ Sawbux (talk) 04:48, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Actualcpscm (talk) 12:47, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Much better sources needed

This article purports to cover mystery fires, but several of the sources simply note an incident, and therefore characterising them as a mystery is probably WP:OR. For any given incident to qualify for this list, I believe a source should explicitly describe the incident as mysterious or unexplained, ideally linking it to the overall pattern. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 19:52, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi @LICA98, you have added many entries to this list, but all the recent ones I checked are just articles about fires - no suggestion of mystery. I don't think this article is intended to be a catalogue of all the fires in Russia. Do you have any better sources that link these to the earlier fires? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 09:49, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

what is the difference between a "mystery fire" and a regular one? I use good sources when they're available but many of the fires just don't make it into mainstream English language media so you have to rely on fringe sources in those cases LICA98 (talk) 10:37, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

The whole point of this article is that sources have characterised a series of fires as mysterious, possibly linked to sabotage related to the war. Russia is a big country - there must be lots of fires all the time, most of them non-notable. We need to identify the fires that are notable; the rest don't need to be mentioned. If a source is fringe, that might be another issue, but the bigger issue is that even those sources don't give us a reason to think many of these fires are notable. Note that the English Wikipedia does allow foreign-language sources, so if you can identify any of those, they might be an improvement. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 10:57, 14 March 2023 (UTC)

Article definitely runs risk of being a WP:SYN issue since on the face of it, it's compiling fires and creating a narrative as if they are all related simply because they aren't all explained in the press; and being such an opaque press its a self fulfilling prophecy that a mysterious fire will remain mysterious. --LeVivsky (ಠ_ಠ) 20:03, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Also I think a better title would be “2022–2023 Unexplained Russian fires” - the word “mystery” is a touch melodramatic. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 21:03, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

More fires

Since this article has been protected, I expect that those who did that has a plan for how the article shall be updated?

In any case, there are more fires:

15 April 2023, Kazan, Tank training ground https://www.newsweek.com/fire-breaks-out-russian-tank-training-ground-after-explosions-reports-1794594

17 April 2023, Belgorod, Power plant https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1759588/russia-fire-power-plant-belgorod-ukraine

11 - 19 April, Nizhnegorod, 4 fires in days, including chemical factory https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pIlu7lDb6uM Joreberg (talk) 17:05, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Unfortunately The Express and YouTube are not considered reliable sources, and Newsweek is also questionable (see WP:RSP). Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 17:53, 19 April 2023 (UTC)
YouTube is not a "source", it is a communication medium, and thereby a sibling to TV, telephone, radio, podcast, and paper. Many different sources use YouTube, TV, telephone and paper for communication. To accept BBC on TV and not on YouTube would be strange.
A proactive attitude would be for you to check the information using several sources. A possible passive, destructive attitude is to just sit down and refuse information from being published.
Another source for the 15 April fire at the Kazan tank training grond:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/04/15/ukraine-russia-war-putin-news-latest-china-weapons-missiles/
Another source for the 17 April explosion in the Belgorod power plant:
https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/04/17/telegram-channels-report-drone-attack-after-fire-breaks-out-at-belgorod-power-plant
Joreberg (talk) 23:13, 20 April 2023 (UTC)
This isn’t an article about Russian fires, it’s an article about unexplained Russian fires, and neither of those sources characterises the fires as unexplained or links them to a pattern of fires. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 06:46, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

20 April: Major explosion in Belgorod https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/04/20/belgorod-blast-leaves-buildings-and-vehicles-damaged-one-car-lands-on-rooftop Joreberg (talk) 23:13, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

19 April: Warehouse on fire in the city of Dzerzhinsk, Nizhny Novgorod Oblast - Alt Source: https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/04/19/7398529/ --Darkcoucou (talk) 10:06, 21 April 2023 (UTC)

Explosion

https://news.yahoo.com/explosion-occurred-near-st-petersburg-104753198.html Victor Grigas (talk) 20:00, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

Unreliable sources

Tass and Oopstop aren't really reliable, can someone also check if fontanka.ru is reliable? SnoopyBird (talk) 20:33, 3 January 2023 (UTC) btw, twitter, the express and NY post aren't reliable either (WP:RSP

also found some other sources that i don't know about the reliability:

-rossaprimavera.ru
-lb.ua
-glavnoe.ua
-czechia.postsen.com
-russianfreepress.com
-kurgan.bezformata.com
-au.topnews.media
-news.ru
-en.mehrnews.com
-anews.com.tr
-dv.kp.ru
-globalhappenings.com
-pravdaurfo.ru
-RZN.info

those that are unreliable should immediately be removed, and, if no reliable source mentioning that fire can be found, the entry for the fire must also be removed.

SnoopyBird (talk) 20:50, 3 January 2023 (UTC)

I've noticed same and also included as per that protocol. The fires are in Russia so usual sources are seldom reporting this, to state the obvious. In my opinion it would be a great shame to lose this documentation. It is presented as a table - a certain amount of neutrality is gained in that. Perhaps a very clear statement that this is a list of reports . Press in Czechia is most probably reliable for example. WP rules are not absolute.Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:53, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

I've boldly changed to 'List of reported fires' Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:18, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

When even TASS admits that there has been a fire, then there has DEFINITELY been a fire
Joreberg (talk) 18:00, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Biased introduction

The introduction states that "there has been speculation that some of the fires or explosions have been the result of sabotage efforts by Ukraine". This is incomplete and biased. There have also been speculations about sabotage from Russian peace activists or Putin-opponents, and also speculations about sabotage from Ukrainians without any special connections with the Ukrainian government and therefore not representing "Ukraine", and also speculations about false flag operations initiated by the Russian government or Russian militant groups. Joreberg (talk) 18:07, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

This can be changed if you can identify reliable sources that cover the various speculations. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 18:41, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Not a “mystery”

According to the investigation, most fires are sponsored from Kyiv. 188.162.132.82 (talk) 03:27, 5 May 2023 (UTC)

Russian "investigation" is usually nonsense.
When you refer to "the" investigation, in singular, are you trying to say that there has been ONE investigation? Of all these fires?
When you refer to an investigation, you should provide a reference, otherwise your claim seems unfounded and not noteworthy.
Do you at least have more information about the "investigation"?
Joreberg (talk) 11:20, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

More fires

It is burning and burning and burning in Russia, without much of it being mentioned here.

Some recent fires:

  • The military recruitment office in Murmansk
  • Intercontinental Hotel in Moscow
  • Chernyshev Factory in Moscow producing engines for Mig-29 fighter jets
  • A location close to a power plant in Dzerzhinkiy
  • Paint factory in Tolyatti, Samara

~~~~ Joreberg (talk) 11:29, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Still blocked?!

I see that this article is still blocked for updates. Is somebody trying to hide something? Here is another mystery fire (Or is this also not sufficiently mysterious?)
Sabotage Or Accident? Mysterious Fire At Russia's Tank Training Ground In Kazan Amid Ukraine War
https://www.news18.com/videos/world/sabotage-or-accident-mysterious-fire-at-russia-s-tank-training-ground-in-kazan-amid-ukraine-war-7562479.html Joreberg (talk) 18:00, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

It's not blocked, it's protected. Thanks for the info which I've added. Cheers. Thelisteninghand (talk) 19:55, 5 May 2023 (UTC)
For almost every person in the world, the article appears to be blocked, but calling it "protected" of course sounds better :-)
Thank you for including info. All the fires in Russia now are an important part of the overall picture of the ongoing warfare (or "special military operation" :-) ), no matter if the fires are caused by Russian resistance, accidents caused by many skilled workers sent away to the front, partisans, saboteurs, or whatever. The world deserves to have an overview over what is going on. Joreberg (talk) 11:35, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

"Mystery" is appropriate word

It is in regular use by press: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/russian-oil-refinery-erupts-latest-29153284 https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/02/seven-dead-in-mystery-fire-at-barracks-for-russian-workers-18208877/

The increase in number of fires is also reported: https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2023/04/10/russia-is-burning-who-or-what-is-behind-the-fires/?sh=8b10344f21ed https://www.businessinsider.com/fires-explosions-insider-russia-may-be-sign-of-unconventional-warfare-2022-9?r=US&IR=T

'Unexplained' could be an option. Hope that helps. Thelisteninghand (talk) 21:10, 1 June 2023 (UTC)

bulk deletion

I have just reverted an edit which removed all of the last nine entries on this list. Please note the 'contentious issues' header above and also that this article is a list of reported incidents. Thanks. Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:58, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Thelisteninghand. The reason for the deletion is as per my comments above. The deleted entries did not establish that their fires were mystery fires, or link them to a wider pattern. This article isn’t a list of reported fires in Russia. There has to be something in the source which gives us a reason to put it on this list. Just being a fire in Russia isn’t enough. N.B. I left the sources which included even the most basic suggestion of being part of a pattern. The ones I deleted didn’t even do that. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 21:08, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
Thanks. The criterion for inclusion, as described in the article, is only that it is unexplained. They do not have to conform to anything else and certainly there is no suggestion that there is any pattern. That is beyond the scope of WP I would have thought and would constitute WP:OR. Thelisteninghand (talk) 22:05, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
Those sources didn’t even claim the fires to be unexplained. They are just reports of fires. The OR here is the WP:SYNTHESIS that is committed by collating these incidents and connecting them as a series. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 22:29, 12 May 2023 (UTC)
@Thelisteninghand will you please self-revert your changes, unless you have found something in one of the sources to support inclusion? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 07:11, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
Most fires are initially unexplained but all are investigated and a lot will have an explanation later but of course no one outside of the local media will report on that nor do I expect someone to add the explanation here because that's not as exciting as adding another item into the table. I just saw a tweet about a fire at a door factory. Expecting this very important mystery to be added soon. TFerenczy (talk) 12:47, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
Reuters, Yahoo and Telegraph among sources. I can see no reason to delete. Thanks.Thelisteninghand (talk) 14:38, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
The issue is not reliability, but relevance. This article is not "List of fires in Russia". Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 16:12, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
@Thelisteninghand - what do you think the scope of this article should be? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 08:38, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Thanks. An obvious answer might be what it says in the lead - which I didn't write by the way. It would be good to include the original author @Victorgrigas: in the conversation - I just contribute from time to time. It was decided by editors that this should be a list - as such it serves simply as a record without narrative, a deliberately very neutral account. I added the word 'reported' to the list heading because it was more accurate. My perspective is that Wikipedia may well be here for a considerable time into the future and that any documentation done now is therefore extremely important in terms of archives. In twenty or thirty years time we will, no doubt, have a different picture in which this list might play a role we can only guess at. Thelisteninghand (talk) 20:45, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
The lead says this article is about mystery/unexplained fires that may be part of a pattern since the invasion of Ukraine. It’s not just a list of reported fires. We can’t just keep adding to this list every time there’s a fire in Russia. We must expect the source to give us a reason to include it in this article in particular. It is original research for us as editors to infer that a fire is part of the series. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 22:03, 1 June 2023 (UTC)
Hi, I started this article after I saw several unexplained (and suspicious) fires in reliable news sources. I did intend it to be a list, with sone context. Any fires that become formally explained ought to be deleted from the list. Victor Grigas (talk) 03:51, 2 June 2023 (UTC)
What about fires that are not reported as suspicious or explicitly described as unexplained? Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 08:29, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:2022–2023 bombing of Odesa which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 13:37, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 22 July 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) – MaterialWorks 20:54, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Russian mystery fires (2022–present) → Russian unusual fires (2022–present) – Better title. "Mystery" seems to be clickbaity. Hddty (talk) 17:30, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

I would support the change.Ânes-pur-sàng (talk) 20:03, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Strong Support Using “mystery” in articles such as these is considered inappropriate.
WikipedianRevolutionary (talk) 20:31, 22 July 2023 (UTC)
Per WP:GS/RUSUKR, non-extended-confirmed users aren’t permitted to edit in internal project discussions, including requested moves.  —Michael Z. 20:12, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
I just aware of that rule. That's really discouraging, because that user's reply is not disruptive and acting in good faith. Hddty (talk) 04:03, 29 July 2023 (UTC)
Oppose. Not an improvement. Sounds awkward: the natural-sounding order of adjectives is unusual Russian fires, but that doesn’t sound like a good article title either.  —Michael Z. 20:15, 26 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Michael. It's hard to convey why, but the order does not sound natural. Unusual comes before Russian because adjectives of opinion come before adjectives of origin. (The order can be summarized as opinion, size, age, shape, color, origin, material, purpose.) The reason mystery goes after Russian is that mystery is a noun acting here as a noun adjunct (as opposed to the adjective "mysterious"). Noun adjuncts go just before the noun they modify. SilverLocust 💬 10:35, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
  • Oppose 'Mystery fires' is used by much of the media - I cited some in the "mystery is appropriate word" section above. Forbes says "The cause remains mysterious" https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2023/04/10/russia-is-burning-who-or-what-is-behind-the-fires/?sh=51ca96acf21e It is correct use of the word where 'unusual' is inaccurate. If the title must change, the better word might be 'unexplained'. Cheers. Thelisteninghand (talk) 15:18, 30 July 2023 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

august 2023 explosion

Victor Grigas (talk) 00:21, 10 August 2023 (UTC)

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