Talk:SEPTA subway–surface trolley lines

Pennsylvania Low‑importance

	Pennsylvania portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Pennsylvania, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Pennsylvania on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PennsylvaniaWikipedia:WikiProject PennsylvaniaTemplate:WikiProject PennsylvaniaPennsylvania articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Trains: Rapid transit / Streetcars Low‑importance

Trains Portal

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Trains, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to rail transport on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion. See also: WikiProject Trains to do list and the Trains Portal.TrainsWikipedia:WikiProject TrainsTemplate:WikiProject Trainsrail transport articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Associated projects or task forces:
/
	This article is supported by WikiProject Rapid transit.
	This article is supported by WikiProject Streetcars.

Philadelphia Mid‑importance

	Philadelphia portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Philadelphia, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Philadelphia on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.PhiladelphiaWikipedia:WikiProject PhiladelphiaTemplate:WikiProject PhiladelphiaPhiladelphia articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

1906?[edit]

1906 is listed as the date of first operation in the infobox. Is this when the subway tunnel opened, or is it just the beginning of streetcar service in Philadelphia? --Jfruh 19:52, 5 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

According to Dr Harlod Cox "The Road From Upper Darby" c. 1967-: 1906 is neither the year that: streetcars began in Philadelphia, horse-drawn streetcars made thier appearance in the 1850's. Nor is 1906 the year that the Philadelphia Rapid Transit Co(PRT) was created, It was created by an act of the Pennsylvania Legilslature in June 1901. It's articles of incorporation were drawn up in 1902. And 1906 was not the year that subway surface car service began, the first subway route was the Market Street and Haddington line (Numbered streetcar routes do not make thier appearance until sometime between 1909 and 1911.) in 1905. 1906 was a very important year in the transit history of Philadelphia however. It was the year that the 69th street terminal opened. It was the year the trains for the Market Street El & Subway arrivied (They began service the following year.) And it was the where West Philadelphia streetcar routes other than the future route 31 began to go into the subway. (comment by J311rk)

Revenue miles[edit]

There are said to be over 60 miles of trackage in the SEPTA subway-surface lines operating as of spring, 2006, but no source on the Web appears to list revenue-miles, that is, travel distances along each of the separate and common routes.

Craig Bolon 10:26, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Station Naming Conventions[edit]

Just so everyone knows, I have proposed a naming convention for SEPTA stations, with discussion here. The proposed conventions will require considerable changes for MFL and undergound Subway Surface stations. Please feel free to contribute there.-- danntm ^T _C 16:32, 22 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Map errors[edit]

The map shown on the right has some substantial errors. Route 13 goes to Yeadon via Chester Ave. while Route 11 goes to Darby via Woodland. Further, Route 13 splits off from Route 11 before Route 36 does. I'd fix it myself, but I can't figure out how to change the map. 24.207.160.25 (talk) 10:49, 6 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pending changes[edit]

This article is one of a number selected for the early stage of the trial of the Wikipedia:Pending Changes system on the English language Wikipedia. All the articles listed at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Queue are being considered for level 1 pending changes protection.

The following request appears on that page:

Many of the articles were selected semi-automatically from a list of indefinitely semi-protected articles.
Please confirm that the protection level appears to be still warranted, and consider unprotecting instead, before applying pending changes protection to the article.

Comments on the suitability of theis page for "Penfding changes" would be appreciated.

Please update the Queue page as appropriate.

Note that I am not involved in this project any much more than any other editor, just posting these notes since it is quite a big change, potentially

Regards, Rich Farmbrough, 23:54, 16 June 2010 (UTC).[reply]

Track gauge[edit]

Three questions.

The page states that the gauge for the Subway-Surface tracks is 5 ft 2+1⁄2 in (1,588 mm). SAme for Pittsburgh Light Rail. I'd like to add sources.
Also, I'd like to know whether "Pennsylvanian gauge" really is a name for that gauge. If it only means to say "used in Pennsylvania", we should not use it as a gauge name. Btw, this gauge is used by streetcars in New Orleans and streetcars in Cincinnati too (see Category:5 ft 2½ in gauge railways in the United States).
Only SEPTA Route 11 mentions a gauge of 5 ft 2+1⁄4 in (1,581 mm). This is unsourced too. It would be curious since this line shares tracks with the other lines in the Eastern tunnel.

-DePiep (talk) 11:16, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Source for Cincinnatti: [1].
Phil Market–Frankford Line: [2]
Interesting: "The history of trolley cars and routes in Philadelphia". SEPTA. 1974-06-01. p. 2. Retrieved 2014-06-11. An early city ordinance prescribed that all tracks were to have a gauge of 2' 2+1⁄4". Same site [3] page 10-11 drawing: wheel gauge 5' 2" (!). Booklet 1974. -DePiep (talk) 12:18, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A wonderful hit by Aaron-Tripel:

Hilton, George W.; Due, John Fitzgerald (2000-01-01). "The Electric Interurban Railways in America". Stanford University Press. Retrieved 2014-06-10. Worst of all, not all city systems were build to the standard American and European gauge of 4'-81⁄2". Pittsburgh and most other Pennsylvania cities used 5'-21⁄2", which became known as the Pennsylvania trolley gauge. Cincinnati used 5'-21⁄2", Philadelphia 5'-21⁄4", Columbus 5'-2", Altoona 5'-3", Louisville and Camden 5'-0", Canton and Pueblo 4'-0", Denver, Tacoma, and Los Angeles 3'-6", Toronto an odd 4'-107⁄8", and Baltimore a vast 5'-41⁄2".

Another source is Harold E. Cox [4]: "The track gauge of 5 feet 2+1⁄2 inches": contradiction(?) (source mentioned, also Cox: The Road from Upper Darby: The Story of the Market Street Subway-Elevated; c. 1967). ~~(context missing?)~~. -DePiep (talk) 09:13, 11 June 2014 (UTC) Context missing? - I meant to say: the available source text may be too short to provide enough. There even is no complete sentence. -DePiep (talk) 22:26, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
here Cox lists "2 ft 2 1/4 in" gauge for Philadelphia transport. Looks confirming. -DePiep (talk) 09:13, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hilton & Due into table[edit]

Hilton & Due into table
row	Place	Gauge	note
A	standard American and European gauge	408504 ft 8+1⁄2 in (1,435 mm)	s.g.
B	Pittsburgh and most other Pennsylvania cities	502505 ft 2+1⁄2 in (1,588 mm)	Pennsylvania trolley gauge
C	Cincinnati, Ohio (streetcars)	502505 ft 2+1⁄2 in (1,588 mm)
D	Philadelphia	502255 ft 2+1⁄4 in (1,581 mm)
E	Columbus, Ohio (dab?)	502005 ft 2 in (1,575 mm)
F	Altoona (dab?)	503005 ft 3 in (1,600 mm)
G	Louisville and Camden (to dab)	500005 ft (1,524 mm)
H	Canton and Pueblo, Colorado (2 to dab)	400004 ft (1,219 mm)
J	Denver, Tacoma, Los Angeles	306003 ft 6 in (1,067 mm)
K	Toronto	410874 ft 10+7⁄8 in (1,495 mm)
L	Baltimore	504505 ft 4+1⁄2 in (1,638 mm)
AA	Streetcars in New Orleans	502505 ft 2+1⁄2 in (1,588 mm)	added, not in H&D

Parameter allk=on not used. -DePiep (talk) 21:05, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Conclusion #1: SEPTA/Philadelphia routes have gauge 2 ft 2+1⁄4 inch from history. And #2: that one is not named "Pennsylvania trolley gauge". -DePiep (talk) 21:05, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Just to inform, for research: page List of track gauges says for 4 ft: "Former tram systems in Canton, Ohio; Honolulu, Hawaii; Laredo, Texas; Pueblo, Colorado; San Antonio, Texas." (No wikilinks, no refs there). -DePiep (talk) 21:33, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

RailGauge overview[edit]

The gauges from the H&D source, by {{RailGauge}} list.
(note: this is Track gauge/data/sandbox, i.e. showing all current proposed changes). {{Track gauge/document gauge/sandbox| 5'2.5"|5'2.5"|5'2.25"|5'2"|5'3"|5'|4'|3'6"|4'10.875"|5'4.5"|5'2.5"|doctitle=[[:template:RailGauge]] options (/sandbox data)|docstate=collapsed}}

-DePiep (talk) 21:52, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

A conclusion: Pennsylvania (trolley gauge) does not belong to 5 ft 21⁄4 in, but to 5 ft 21⁄2 in (error now). -DePiep (talk) 21:52, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

done this one thing: sandbox now shows "Penn..." alias input option as intended. -DePiep (talk) 23:19, 10 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Question; Why would SEPTA claim that it is, if it isn't? Does Pennsylvania Trolley Gage only consist of 5 ft 21⁄2 in (1,588 mm)? Also it should be pointed out that this brochure was published in 1974. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 14:02, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So far, I have not found sources that SEPTA does claim anything. And the sources mentioned above that do mention a source, are pointing to 2 ft 21⁄4 for Philadelphia. The fact that a source is from 1974 does not reduce its quality. It could even be that back then, there was less mixing and confusing of those very similar gauges. And anyway, that booklet was published by SEPTA, so it has some authority & connection. -DePiep (talk) 15:09, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

...or do I misunderstand your question? According to you, is SEPTA saying "we use Pennsylvania trolley gauge", or "we use gauge 5 ft 21⁄2 in", or even both "we use [the/a] Pennsylvania trolley gauge of 5 ft 21⁄2 in"? Links are welcome. -DePiep (talk) 15:23, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I saw something in the brochure claiming 5 ft 21⁄4 was also "Pennsylvania Trolley Gage." Now that I've checked I can't remember where I saw it. For the record, I only mentioned the fact that it was published in 1974 by SEPTA, to point out that things may have changed since the publication of the pamphlet. I'm not out to discredit anything, and yes that source certainly does give it credibility. ---------User:DanTD (talk) 16:22, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

ok, clear for now. If such a quote by SEPTA pops up, we'll have to dive into it, sure (including a check on possible sloppyness & derailed streetcars). These days, I've clicked a lot of their pages, but I might have missed it. -DePiep (talk) 16:39, 11 June 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Another source is Middleton, William D. (1961). The Interurban Era. Milwaukee, WI: Kalmbach Publishing. ISBN 978-0-89024-003-8. OCLC 4357897 – via Archive.org. which states on p.382 that Pennsylvania Broad Gauge was 5 ft 21⁄2.

Dual or mixed gauge[edit]

Did SEPTA have any dual gauge? The name of the file appears to suggest that. Peter Horn User talk 18:04, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would assume that it refers to mixed rail as in different types of transport systems (both Septa and regional rail are shown in the image). If you look closely behind the first bogie you can see that there is no third rail anymore. It is just a set of points. --PhiH (talk) 21:12, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"SEPTA Night" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect SEPTA Night and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 July 20#SEPTA Night until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TartarTorte 16:14, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Green Line (SEPTA subway–surface trolley lines)" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Green Line (SEPTA subway–surface trolley lines) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 5#Green Line (SEPTA subway–surface trolley lines) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TartarTorte 23:57, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Green Line (Philadelphia SEPTA subway–surface trolley lines)" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Green Line (Philadelphia SEPTA subway–surface trolley lines) and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 September 5#Green Line (Philadelphia SEPTA subway–surface trolley lines) until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. TartarTorte 23:57, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

endash versus hyphen in title[edit]

is there a reason the title uses "subway–surface" instead of "subway-surface"? the former produces an ugly url with the urlencoded sequence %E2%80%93 in it, for what I don't think is any reason in particular, unless there's a style mandate I'm unaware of 73.141.38.93 (talk) 00:18, 21 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]