Talk:Saddam Hussein/Archive 9

Western supplied chemical weapons

The phrase "During the war, Iraq used Western supplied chemical weapons against Iranian forces fighting on the southern front and Kurdish separatists who were attempting to open up a northern front in Iraq with the help of Iran" is highly misleading and the supplied reference does not even support this statement [1]. 84.70.159.152 14:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and have modified it to note that it was material and technology, supplied by Western and Asian companies. Actually, it was also from the Middle East as well. Since so much of this technology and material is, in fact, dual-use, the whole reference should probably go. It was originally just designed to be inflamatory and give the impression that the West directly supported Saddam's campaign against the Kurds, which is clearly not so. Epstein's Mother 17:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Chirac with Saddam

If we have to have a picture of Rummy meeting with Saddam, can't we also put up a picture of Chirac personally giving Saddam a tour of a French reactor? Maybe some mention of the fact that Chirac wrote up the bill of sale with 80% enriched uranium, so he could go straight to a nuclear weapon? It seems so many relish the dripping irony of Rumsfeld meeting with Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war (when we, the French, and the British were acting in lockstep vis a vis Iraq) that perhaps we ought also have some nice pictures of Chirac posing for official diplomatic photos with Saddam when he went to sell him nuclear technology. You know, the guy who said war is never the answer.

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And the pic of Chirac would just be POV pushing, SqueakBox 17:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The US clearly did not invade Iraq for oil and nothing the US has done since the invasion remotely suggests that. However, France did secure favorable oil contracts from Saddam in return for weapons, and France was the number two supplier of weapons to Iraq after Russia (according to the Stockholm Peace Research Institute). According to the SPRI, the US was tenth at less than 1% of the total between 1972 and the invasion. It seems egregious to me to tie the US to Saddam in his war of aggression with a picture of Rumsfeld, when not only were the French partners in that, they were also his main arms supplier after the Soviets. That deserves at least equal representation since it is far more relevant to his military power than anything the US did.

On the other hand France supported Saddam which makes it relevant to the context. It puts a perspective to the French resistance to the war. Prezen 18:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Small correction: "It puts a perspective to the French government resistance to the war." The French (population) resistance to the war has clearly nothing to do with Chirac and Nuclear reactor. This population has learned from the 2 last world war and from the decolonisation that "war" should not be an answer. Huygens 25 20:16, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The French have been trained to be reflexively Anti-American for two centuries and their loyal opposition to anything the US does can be counted on without any need for a logical reason.

France was a big player in the Iraqi procurement of nuclear materials, but I'm not sure how many pix we need. Perhaps we should put both of these pictures or none of these state handshake pix? Chastising Chirac is off topic in this part of the article, which is about Sadaan Hussein anyway. Perhaps if there ends up being a section on the pursuit of nuclear weapons by Sadaam Hussein (which there should be), it should appear there.weblady 23:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

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But here french didn't conquer Iraq for oil or for nuclear weapons (which was not there) Bush administration did it. So the picture of Rummy is relevant to the context. Hope 31 December 2006 . This form is for facts not for personal views.

Bush didn't conquer Iraq for oil either, unless you have references? Your signature is missing. --weblady 18:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

NPOV Picture

Put a picture that is more polite.

-G

how about you do it —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.42.98.97 (talk) 03:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

I agree with G we need a more neutral picture perhaps one where he isn't in front of the Iraqi special tribunal like these examples 1 2

I also kind of agree with "G" about that matter. But on the other hand, a picture like one of the two named above is not NPOV either. -Wutschwlllm 13:04, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

- "G" is right, I would also courteously suggest that the MAIN picture, on top be changed with a more unbiased/professional one. In the first picture he is unshaven and unkept. A formal, clean picture should be posted as the first one, in order to properly represent the man.

I changed the image to one that is widely used on the Internet and is unanimously attributed to an official image released by the Iraqi Mission to the UN when Saddam was in power. This is correctly attributed. There is no need to put an insulting picture on a head of state article, regardless of how you personally feel about the person. Flybd5 22:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I will modify the image later, after some time passes. Clearly there are some hotheaded editors here today who can't see two inches in front of their faces and understand that by reverting to an insulting image of a HEAD OF STATE they are adding fuel to the fire and acting in a very disruptive manner. Flybd5 23:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Flydb5. Waiting until the notoriety of the event dies down a bit will help. A neurtral sort of picture should be found--neither formal head of state nor pulled out of the hole, but something in between that represents how he was most often seen by the world. weblady 23:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Saddam's Marriages and Famliy Relantionships

Shouldn't these go right after the section on his youth? At the moment these are listed right after his rise to power, capture, trails, ect. ShadowWriter 16:46, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. The biographical stuff, except for the stuff that occurred in running the country, should go together in a biographical section. The exceptions would be state appointments of his sons and stepsons and their deaths as agents one way or another of the regime. weblady 23:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Also, the mushy stuff about his daughter's dispositions towards him after the execution of her husband-by her father-and her exile to Jordan ought to be left out. It's maudlin and off topic in a wikipedia account of a man's life as an educational resource. You'd expect her to say something of the sort to the press and this stuff could appear on most every autobio in Wikipedia. Let's just leave it out. There's more than enough other more important material to include.weblady 23:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Article to consider, when reworking

Hello, the following aricle (of the BBC) may be worthwile looking at, when this is reworked:

• Saddam trial 'flawed and unsound'

Just a comment, though. -- Eptalon 01:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Saddam Hussain as a secular person:

saddam is an honorary citizen of Detroit MI USA [2] [3] [4] [5] [6]

he donated several dollars to many churches to keep them alive

and also kept second in command in Iraq a christian..

and iraq was the only secular country in Arab and middle east

michael youhanna also known as tariq aziz is christian

he used to meet pope regularly

Perhaps it is best to report the overwhelming evidence provided at the trial of this undeniable mass murderer rather than BBC opinion and the lack of judgment in Detroit. Veritas 03:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

A couple updates may be needed also,in this sction: All Muslim Sunnis out side Iraq do not consider him a Sunni Muslim, but Ba'athi. You should correct this important information about his religion, also, you may add some of the Sunni leaders fatwa about Suddam faith, where they excluded his faith from Sunni and call him Ba'athi. Such fatwa is available and made by nemours of Sunni Grand Muftis such as Abd-al-Aziz ibn Baaz and others in Saudi Arabia between 1981-2006.

_____________________

All of this is page filler. Everybody who can get an appointment meets with the Pope. Big deal. I agree with Veritas that the evidence ought to stand for itself. Print facts, not innuendo with respect to the trial. This article probably can't be long enough to get detailed enought to include some cockamamie Michigan ceremony to make Sadaam Hussein an "honorary citizen of Detroit." If this is printed, then the celebrations at his execution ought also to be included--they are far more representative and important, far more widely reported too. weblady 23:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge with Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda timeline

I suggest that these articles be combined as the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda timeline is almost entirely about Saddam Hussein and what he did or did not do with Al-Qaeda. Perhaps as a sub-page of this main page? --BenBurch 22:31, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

• No Merge. I would expect that the Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda timeline would be entirely about Saddam Hussein and what he did or did not do with Al Qaeda. And also when he did it. Imagine that. Saadum is already too long. is already too long, why would we make it longer?
• No, Saddam Hussein and al-Qaeda timeline is already one of the longest articles and needs to be cleaned-up. Catchpole 10:50, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
• No merge. There is no objective proof of links between Sadam and Al-Qaeda. mabuimo
• NO way. Saddam wasn't even a Sunni, for crying out loud. According to the very same article that is suggested should carry the al Qaeda timeline, purports that Hussein was a pan Arabist. He wasn't even Muslim. sammyjames
• No, the article is already 45 pages long, it is in sore need of cleanup, not additions.
• NO, this article is an educational account of the life of Sadaam Hussein, not some big middle eastern movements account. Leave it out. The other account needs to stand on its own.weblady 00:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

categorization: "convicted for war crimes"

is Category:People convicted of war crimes appropriate? to my knowledge, Saddam has been convicted for Crimes against humanity over the Dujail killings so far, which does not appear to be a War crime. while he has been charged with war crimes (or is going to be), he has not been convicted of them yet. Doldrums 10:26, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

The verdicts of those trials and links to those convicted (or not) in those trials should be placed here when these events happen. I agree we'd ought to be precise about the actual verdict of this trial. I believe it was "crimes against humanity," but don't yet know if there were other parts to the verdict which also need to be added. weblady 00:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Minor Repairs Needed

Just a few suggestions for any admins passing through who'd be able to edit the article:

• Iran-Iraq War — the link for the word "supported" is misspelled at "establishing(estabilishing)," resulting in a faulty sublink
• Gulf War Aftermath — in the second paragraph, the phrase "a injury" should be "an injury"
• 1991-2003 — I suggest bracketing al-Qaeda in the final paragraph; make sure the spelling of "al-Qaeda" remains consistent
• Pursuit and Capture — (under Pursuit) after the quotes, the paragraph beginning with "Ayad Allawi in interview..." should instead read "Ayad Allawi in an interview..."
• Trials — June 30, 2004 shouldn't have future tense
• Trials — November 8, 2005 needs commas after "al-Zubeidi" and "Ramadan"
• Trials — November 5, 2006 needs a comma after "however"
• Marriage and Family Relationships — the second-to-last paragraph needs a comma after "according to the soldiers"
• Marriage and Family Relationships — the end of the second-to-last paragraph needs Saddam's quote tailored for grammatical consistency; needs to be changed from "he "wish things..."" to either ""[I] wish things..."" or "he "wish[ed] things...""

Thanks! -Unregistered anklebiter 64.90.198.6 22:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

MINOR REPAIRS? ARE YOU KIDDING ME? THIS IS THE MOST BIASED, LEFTIST BIOGRAPHY I HAVE EVER READ OF SADDAM! BAGHDAD BOB COULD HAVE WRITTEN A MORE CRITICAL ANALYSIS ABOUT 'THE BUTCHER OF BAGHDAD'! HOW CAN YOU COMPLETELY LEAVE OUT SOVIET INVOLVEMENT IN HIS BEING BROUGHT TO POWER AND IN THE BUILDING OF HIS REGIME?! HOW CAN YOU SKIP OVER THE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF IRAQIS HE HAD TORTURED, RAPED, MAIMED AND MURDERED??!! WHY IS THE AMERICAN LEFT SO KEEN ON NOT SEEING THIS VILLIAN AS A VILLIAN? WHAT A JOKE! - ANONYMOUS WIKIREADER

AMEN ANONYMOUS WIKIREADER!

Hey, anonymous wikireader. I totally agree, but you must realize that a lot of these wikipedia editors are very internet litterate and that means that TALKING IN ALL CAPS makes you look rude to them. Try not to make people like me look like idiots, please.

This has no place here. If you have something you want to add or alter bring some reputable citations. Trcrev 22:42, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Nicely put statement anonymous Wikireader but, WHY DON'T YOU JUST EDIT THE ARTICAL YOURSELF INSTEAD OF GRIPING ABOUT IT IN ALL CAPS??? MastertagUSA 14:51, 30 December 2006

Who are you to judge what is reputable citations. Facts cannot be disputed

Much of what anonymous wikireader states is true and a matter of the historical record, but he need not shout and be rude. Anonymous wikireader, please get an account and state the facts with references if you do not think what you read is complete. BTW, the phrase "butcher of Baghdad" should occur in this article since, as an educational article it should include references to terms and phrases commonly used in the global media to refer to this man. "Butcher of Baghdad" was one of those terms, even among Iraqis. weblady 00:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

US Supplied Chemical Weapons?

From the Wikipedia article... 'Iraq quickly found itself bogged down in one of the longest and most destructive wars of attrition of the twentieth century. During the war, Iraq used US supplied chemical weapons against Iranian forces fighting on the southern front and Kurdish separatists who were attempting to open up a northern front in Iraq with the help of Iran.'

Did the USA really supply him with chemical weapons? What's the source for this? I know it's great fun to bash the USA, but I'd like to see proof of such allegations.

Here is a source about German involvement... http://www.fas.org/nuke/guide/iraq/cw/az120103.html

Bajama 13:37, 21 December 2006 (UTC) Barry Mann

I added citation needed tag. This is an uncorroborated fact.Brian23 14:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Changed US to Western and added a reference. If anyone else has anything to add, feel free.Brian23 14:11, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

This article needs severe rebuttals and MANY more factual/cited support. There is NO mention of the unprovoked invasion of Kuwait, for example. MUCH more to follow....

At the present time, there is much controversy and much disagreement. This article is severely flawed, yes. It will need to be fixed such that it is more neutral, yes. Emphasis on corroborated facts, please. weblady 00:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

When he gets executed

Is anyone gonna start past tensing the article, and also put information on his death.

• Sure. But no reason to worry about it until then; you'll be amazed at how fast the article will be brought up to date. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 21:05, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

The world is full of surprises... Maybe he won't be executed. I mean he was a dictator and I'm sure he took many lifes but it is not a guarantee for his execution. Look at the Pinochet example. He destroyed a generation and abolished the rights of people but no one executed him. With respect, Deliogul 21:48, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

i wonder why no one archived this take page !!!! anyhow about execution it is 100% sure without any doubt saddam will be executed maybe tomorow if not in this few days - if u know iraqis u will be sure as i am ,, so u will not wait for along time --82.194.53.100 02:39, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm certain he'll be executed as well - it's no longer a matter of IF - it's about WHEN and who's going to carry it out. But the world is full of surprises and it might not go according to plan. He might commit sucide like Hermann Göring, or even die before the inevitable like with Slobodan Milošević. 81.111.222.205 18:05, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Well he isnt at death's door so dying of natural causes sounds like it wont happen, and I doubt very much he will be allowed to kill himself as the US authorities are clearly aware of howw Goring "cheated" justice. I would have thought his execution is by no means certain and as we are not a psychic encyclopedia we cannot start past tensing a man still very much alive,. But do be assured if he ius executed wikipedia will indeed update more infinitely more quickly than our rival encyclopedias, SqueakBox 18:49, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

I just wanted show the possibility law and according to the law, even an invasion of the world by purple dogs is a possibility. The world is a crazy place and many different things can happen in every second. Also I don't want to be rude but which justice was the one Göring cheated? We all know that it was all about winners and losers... Deliogul 18:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I guess this discussion is moot now :-) Nyttend 05:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Off topic conversation. weblady 00:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Current Event

I added a current event tag since I didn't see one. Johp78 03:48, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Context for weapon inspections

I've tried to add some more context for the weapon inspections. I think the spying allegations are important as is the claim Richard Butler (diplomat) withdrew on the recommendation of the US. The Bombing of Iraq (December 1998) and aforement biography provide this info in more detail. This is important especially given the untrue claim the inspectors were expelled (as mentioned, they voluntarily withdrew coz of the impending airstrikes) and the fact that it seems more understandable Iraq or Saddam would not want to cooperate with people who were spying on him Nil Einne 17:31, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

NPOV tag

The opening reads like a hiostory of saddam according to the US government,, which is nowhere near POV, SqueakBox 18:58, 27 December 2006 (UTC)

Saddam Hussein 'reigned' as Iraqi President? Though this is true in pratice, constitutionally it isn't. Is this sentence PoVish? GoodDay 00:18, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

The opening is accurate. I don't see it as a history as written by the US. It is almost universally accepted. There is no hiding what he did and I think it is stated accurately. I think you have a problem with the US as your recent comments have suggested and are biased towards anything that sounds remotely like the US beat up Saddam. I suggest you rephrase and tone down your anti-US rhetoric. Thank you. Brian23 17:30, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont agreee that the US view is almost universally accepted. He did a better job than his successors Bush and Blair in keeping Iraq stable and free of terrorism. An example of POV is the section title pursuity. That is the pov of the US army, I changed it to Escape as the article is about Saddam and not the US army. Nothing wrong with anti US rhetoric in this article, not being an American I am not patriotic toward America myself, just like billions of other people. Nor am I anti the American people. What needs toning down is the pro US pov that infects this article, SqueakBox 19:09, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I was actually impressed with the impartiality of this article. When there are such strong feelings around as there are in regards to this man, the pursuit of NPOV is going to be particularly difficult. For the first time, reading this article, I think I started to get an idea of what motivated him and that he wasn't just a brutal dictator (as the US gov't and media describe him), but with an actual agenda that did do some good things for his country (though he was inescapably brutal)... Kudos to whoever wrote this article. It will need a cleanup in a few days, though- after the execution and everything dies down. Trcrev 22:38, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

This article is still very POV, it struggles to say one positive thing about saddam and generally gives the US gov version of events. Please dont remove the tag until the dispute is sorted, SqueakBox 17:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

So please dont hide it without coming to the talk page and telling me why there is no dispute in spite of there ebing one, SqueakBox 17:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Squeakbox, it's also part of the public record that he wiped out whole villages of people and killed all told hundreds of thousands of people, including his own son-in-laws. Let's not be cute. This has to be an article which is unbiased and has references for facts. Leave your weepy emotions home or you're not up to the task. weblady 00:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Incorrect info in intro

The first paragraph claims that saddam wassentenced to death for "crimes agst humanity". This is incorrect. He was sentenced to death for handing out death sentences to 143 people in 1982. Not the same thing. Please correct.

Not true. Many news sources have been lumping his sentence into the category of humanitarian crimes. However, the specific crime should be stated. But Fox News mentioned something about this being the "fastest" case that could be put together. One must realize that this death was not JUST a sentence for the 143 people, it was also one for the 4 to 6 million other confirmed and unconfirmed deaths he has caused. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.53.29.52 (talk) 05:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

Wrong ;) Saddam was sentence to death for the kill of 143 people in repression for an outrage against the presidential procession in 1982. This is what Le Monde a French newspaper has stated. They even detail that his death put an end to other trials against him (like genocides against the Khurdes) Huygens 25 20:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Huygens is correct. An attempt was made on Sadaam Hussein's life in 1982 in the town of Dujail, and he punished the town for it by killing 148 townspeople. These are the people he stood accused of killing in this case. It has been widely reported that this is the case. There are pictures online of a memorial museum erected by the survivors, mostly female. There are other trials which will be carried on yet, with other people which may receive sentences. These trials are for other atrocities, including the Kurd massacre. weblady 00:30, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Style of hanging?

There is no information on the style of hanging (short drop, long drop, etc.). Is this information known or just not shown on the page? I think it would be a good piece of information. --142.179.137.175 03:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

That's probably more detail than is necessary in this article. This article is already very long and probably will need a cleanup after all of the events of today play out. Trcrev 22:34, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

No, too much detail given the amount of much more important information available. This article is not about methods of hanging but about Sadaam Hussein. weblady 00:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Televised

I read somewhere that the hanging will be televised (I think it was CBS or something). Is this confirmed? --142.179.137.175 03:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I watched on the news last night that the Iraqi government is still undecided. If it's televised, it would put conspiracy theorists to bed (he wouldn't be faking his own death) and everyone would know his existance has ended (like how we got the message seeing Zarqawi's body) but it would incite more violence. If it's not, the converse can be true. The news also said the Iraqi government is trying to keep it all under its hat to minimize the chance of a coup to rescue Saddam from transport to the gallows or something like that. We most likely won't hear about it, or even see it, until immediately before or after. 12.167.225.121 18:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Televising would make him more of a martyr than he is already likely to be if they just hang him, SqueakBox 20:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

What does this have to do with the editing of this page? Trcrev 22:33, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It has been confirmed that the execution WILL be filmed (BBC). There is nothing about it being televised. 90.193.239.5 02:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The film will be shown on TV, though... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.53.29.52 (talk) 05:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

Saddam was a dictator

why it is not mentioned very clearly that Saddam Hussein was a dictator - it must be one of the most known fact about him please add it as it is in his friend article Benito Mussolini and by the time prepare to add him to his new category with his friends Category:Executed heads of state--217.17.231.42 14:10, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

This WikiPedia Saddam article is almost an election plug for this murdererous tyrant. How could such bias come into play here? Spirit Of Truth 16:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Hardly. This article is an American stitch up and violates POV, SqueakBox 16:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

He isn't executed yet so wait. He was clearly the sole leader of his country but his recognized occupation was being the president of Iraq. For example, we all know that Stalin was a dictator but, officially, he was the general secretary of the communist party. With respect, Deliogul 16:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

How can you possibly say it's an American stitch-up? First, I see no support to justify such a specious argument. Second, he ordered mass killings of anyone he wanted, like the Algerians. Only one of his grevious edicts, the murder of the 148 Shi'as is what he was found guilty of (and being sentenced to die). Do you need me to keep going or do you get it yet? So the label 'dictator' is quite apt so try and not let your knee-jerk anti-american reactions cloud your opinions in the future, thanks. 12.167.225.121 18:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Genrally we dont call anyone a dictator on wikipedia, we dont call either Hitler or Fidel one and it just buys in to the US gov view of events, which we cannot accept as the only truth here, SqueakBox 16:20, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

No, but it can be said that, "Many historians agree that Hitler was a dictator..etc" or in this case, "Many historians and scholars agree that Saddam was a dictator." - which is a fact. That is a better NPOV. Brian23 17:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

To 12.167.225.121, I am not sure if you are aware of it but the decisions made by George W. Bush caused the deaths of thousands of people (be open minded don't just think the war on terror thing) but these deaths don't make him a dictator, he is the president of US. Being a dictator or not is releated to your style of exercising the power over your people. Deliogul 19:12, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Dictator is also a weasel pov word that we should avoid on wikipedia, either for Saddam, for Bush or for anyone else, SqueakBox 20:00, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Also, I didn't say that Bush is a dictator, don't get me wrong ;) I juts think American people are crazy and I can't understand why they voted for him :) With respect, Deliogul 20:53, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The term "dictator" is a heavily loaded word which is difficult to define using objective measures. Basically it is inherently subjective. If there is a way of documenting he's a dictator then by all means... Also, in re: the crimes he's accused of. They should only be included in here if there if verifiable evidence that he did it. Just because the US gov't states that he did something shouldn't be taken as fact (i.e. WMD...). Trcrev 22:31, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that such childish bantering is occurring on Wikipedia. I cannot even scroll through these talk pages without seeing people take anti-American potshots. This is not the place for such conduct; use your blog. As for the term dictator, it is a bit POV, and although common sense should tell us Saddam is one, I think we should avoid using it for the best. However, I do not think that calling Saddam "president" is appropriate either, he is no more a president than George Bush is a dictator. The great kawa 23:57, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

A nation's leader is called a "dictator" when he has absolute power: Whatever he "dictates" is expected to be carried out, with grave punishment for dissenters. There is no question Saddam fit that bill, and Bush does not. It's also a propagandistic term, like "terrorist" is, so it really doesn't need to be in the article. Outlining what he "accomplished" during his reign speaks for itself. Wahkeenah 00:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Dictator is a "weasel word"? Good Lord....why don't you all just go over to Iraq and join Hussein's buddies? He was in FACT a dictator...a person whose every edict must be carried out or some penalty, including death, will follow. If you can't call a spade a spade, then shut down Wikipedia, because it is worthless propaganda, nothing else.

It is not whether someone support Saddam or not. More than terming him as dictator, it is more important that he was the Head of the Nation. If one wants to use negative words whenever, one should give Bush more nastier terms with respect to the number of killings he had, and with respect to invading another country. In fact, one can say Bush practised dictatorship by taking over the power, law and lives of another country. --Rocksea 10:04, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if I give the impression I'm taking "anti-American potshots." First time i've been accused of that. I'm simply talking about the editing of this word. This article shouldn't be written from a pro American POV or an anti-american POV. Recent times have reminded us that we cannot take all information given to us as dogma, as my government (American) spins just like any other. Trcrev 15:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Dictator is a weasel word and shouldn't be used in any wikipedia article. All it shows is an anti Saddam POV, SqueakBox 15:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

"why don't you all just go over to Iraq and join Hussein's buddies?" What is this! Why do you think I must join to Arabic nationalists? I'm a Turk. Also, as others said before we can't accept everything which US leaders say because nearly everthing they told about ıraq came out to be wrong so you have to be calm. You must sit and think about the deaths that American policies are causing all around world. Deliogul 20:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Deliogul, I sorry you feel that way. But we've made some mistakes, the Bush administration has made mistakes, just like Ford administration, Nixon administration, etc. People will die, its an unfortunate thing, but if it is for good, don't bash it, like the million americans do.

This is incredible. All the morons join in the fight. Dictator, a weasel word? He was a dictator! Reign of Tyranny, dictator, its all true. Dictator is like the word "bastard", it can be abused, but if you use it in its proper meaning, then it is true. Get over it. -Yancyfry

Please dont engage in personal attacks. It isnt moronic to want an NPOV article, SqueakBox 20:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but Dictator isn't a NPOV thing if it's true. I shouldn't have sent a message to you, but I'm sorry it's true. Now, I don't know you or anyone will believe that I forgive Saddam. He made huge mistakes, killed hundreds without cause, that is hard to not hate. We are here to make this article like an Encyclopedia, Dictator is in the Encyclopedia, so leave this "weasel word".

There is nothing to get over. I can't understand you. Naming Saddam as a dictator is no good for the article. You can only say that many experts on the issue think that Saddam was ruling Iraq as the absolute power etc... Also, I'm sure that, in Iraq, America kills more civilians per year than Saddam. Deliogul 20:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Being cute about the facts is also no good for the article. He was a dictator since he murdered all usurpers to his position. It was his modus operandi for years. He also set his sons up as his successors. This article *must* be factual about these matters. It is not your own little love note, Squeakbox. --weblady 00:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Weblady, then what about George W. Bush? He took international law into his hands, bypassed UN, took the power, law and lives of people of a country not under his administration. Isn't George W. Bush to be termed as World Dictator? Haven't George W. Bush murdered millions of civilians in Iraq and Afghanisthan saying excuses like they possess weapons of mass destruction, they are a threat etc? If you apply your way of logic to Saddam, it applies more to George W. Bush. It has been his modus operandi for years. He has been dictating the world on how it should run, with disrespect to rest of the 400+ countries in the world. Do you see that? --Rocksea 07:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

This article is not about George Bush. It's about Sadaam Hussein. BTW, it's also not about your personal opinions. I don't see references. --weblady 18:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Violation of WP:BLP

Saddam is still alive. This is an encyclopedia. The first pic was a violation of WP:BLP as well as an insult to Saddam, his family and the Iraqi people. Such edits make wikipedia a laughing stock. Please read BLP and dont repeat, SqueakBox 16:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It's not an insult. He's in jail.. it's a third-party source photo. It's the most recent photo we have. I don't think we need to sugarcoat it by putting him in a nice-little suit.Brian23 16:43, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It isnt the most recent photo we have and it insults both him, his family and the Iraqi people. Have you read BLP, as if so you would see this is a gross violation. Please put your hatred of him (though I bet he never did anything to you) to one side if you want to edit the article as we need to follow wikipedia policies of NPOV and BLP, and a picture of him whose only end was to insult and offend is a gross violation of every norm of wikipedia, which is an encyclopedia and not a political rag, 17:07, 29 December 2006 (UTC)SqueakBox

I read it. I don't see how it is a gross violation of BLP. It's not as if we intentionally altered the photo. He was in jail and in court. How is that offending. Please explain. Would you rather have us post a picture of him holding a rifle aimed in the air as he rules as dictator of Iraq or maybe one of him a couple of his wives or maybe one of him ordering the gassing of Kurds. Either one can be interpreted as insulting. Unless you can come up with a better reason, I simply don't see how that photo is insulting.Brian23 17:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Ok, looking at the edits.. I see what you are talking about. It would have made more sense to me if you had stated that you removed an offending pic. When you state "first pic", I think the saddam trial photo. If you are still talking about the saddam trial photo as being insulting, then I still don't understand how that is insulting.Brian23 17:24, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry about that. IMO the underpants pic as the main pic should be treated as simple vandalism, the one I replaced it with is uncontroversial, SqueakBox 18:03, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course now it doesn't matter, Saddam is dead (so no more BLP vio.). But it could still be construed as a violation of NPOV, in which case that could be grounds for keeping it off. 74.38.35.171 08:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

On this, IMO I believe that the photo of Saddam should be changed to a widely accepted photograph of him. Think of say Mozart or Hitler or Einstein - shouldn't there be a historical picture of him? I dont think the "trial" photo currently posted is a very accurate depiction of Saddam and the life that he has lived. It looks more like a mug shot. It should be more portraited. I hope I am making sense here - I'm not saying that it's still a violation, just this runs along the same lines.... 58.178.174.174 07:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

He's dead now. There's a more appropriate discussion of photos already updiscussion, so this part is superfluous--move it up there with the other photo discussion. Subject closed. --weblady 00:43, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions for the article

Is it mentioned anywhere that he was handed over to the Iraqi police? That seems to be pretty important. Also, I would recommend semiprotecting the article. It's getting a lot of vandalism.--CJ King 17:16, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

That's an issue for wikinews Brian23 17:19, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I see its been added, not an issue for wikinews, SqueakBox 17:59, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

He was HANGED! not hung

I think this is an important detail, given the political import of this event. It should be evident in text or in links at least that the actual executors were Iraqi officials. --weblady 00:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Anticipated Death Date

I removed the anticipated death date. It is ridiculous to add that in there. We'll add it in when he dies.. until then, I don't see a reason to post anticipated death dates. If we did that, we would have to do it for every public figure and that is silly. Brian23 18:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Any refernce to his death (as opposed to his planned execution) withouit a reliable source will be treated as vandalsim and may result in the user being blocked from editing, SqueakBox 18:28, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Added update to Announced Execution date/time. Reuters is now reporting that he is still in US custody.Brian23 18:40, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree, but no longer relevant to the discussion.--weblady 00:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Protect from anonymous users

Perhaps given the recent events surrounding the subject of this article, maybe it should be protected from editing by anonymous or newly registered users.Mellon123 19:17, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

It already is semi protected, SqueakBox 19:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree with that edit, an "anticipated" death date is ridiculous Jacob Steep

I agree with this as well, we should protect the article from anonymous editing.

Well, I'm an anon. editor and I've added a ton of content to the article, as well as found sources confirming many facts without citations...

The article is semi-protected now. --weblady 00:51, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

protected status

Shouldn't there be a box at the top of the page saying that the article is protected? I can only find a padlock

A padlock is what you get. Try WP:Village pump if you want to change policy, SqueakBox 21:58, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

sorry, pressed edit too quickly,what I meant was shouldn't there be a box at the top of the article saying it is protected as new or unregistered users would not understand why they can't edit RyanPostlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or lets have banter} 22:02, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Probably should be but I dont know what it is. Will keep an eye out for the relevant template, SqueakBox 22:27, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

DONERyanPostlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or lets have banter} 23:22, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Announced execution - update needed?

A couple OF updates may be needed to the execution section:

• Eid ul-Adha is an Islamic holiday, not a specifically Iraqi holiday.
• Eid ul-Adha begins on December 30th in Sunni Islam, but December 31st in Shi'ite Islam.

-Source? I think the sighting of the moon in various countries, not the sect, determines this since Pakistan has declared Eid on January 1. (http://moonsighting.com/1427zhj.html)

• It is legal to perform an execution up until sunrise on a holiday, as that is considered to be the beginning of the holiday, not midnight. On December 30th, 2006, that will be approximately 6:00 AM.

Yes, I realize this is entirely academic, since the execution seems to be imminent and I'm sure the section will be completely re-written in a matter of hours. It just seems appropriate to bring it up, considering the spirit of Wikipedia as that of essentially a "living encyclopedia".

• Maybe the article needs a "countdown" clock, as with NASA: "H minus 4 hours 3 minutes..." Wahkeenah 23:52, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

The second point is not correct. Eid ul-Adha is celebrated on the same days (beginning on the tenth day of the Islamic month of Dhu al-Hijjah) regardless of the branch of Islam. Differences in dates of celebration have to do with when the new moon was sighted (and thus the beginning of Dhu al-Hijjah occurred) according to particular national or local authorities. Because of this, Eid ul-Adha began at sunset on December 29 in Saudi Arabia and Qatar, among other places. It will begin on the night of December 30 in Indonesia, Turkey, and Guyana, among other places. It will begin the night of December 31 in Pakistan and Bangladesh. However, the date of celebration is dependent on what local communities are doing. Thus, if one mosque wants to observe Eid starting December 30, but another just a couple kilometers away wants to start on December 29, they are free to; it just depends on what moon-sighting the mosques' congregations trust (or if they decided to use scientific calculations to make a theoretical moon-sighting). In theory, the two mosques should most likely be in unison (since they are so close), but that often times does not happen.

The third point is also incorrect. Islamic holidays begin at sunset. As far as I know (I'm not entirely certain), most of Iraq is beginning Eid on the night of December 30, which would mean a sunset time of just after 5:00pm. -- tariqabjotu 01:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

But alas... people are free to do what they want. And it would not surprise me if the celebration of the holiday in Iraq is separated Shi'a-Sunni. -- tariqabjotu 03:04, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Tariq, what you have written is a contradiction unless you mean to say that the whole calendar can be shifted by how the local community views the moon. Is this what you are saying? --weblady 00:54, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

protected template

Why was the sprotected template removed? it showed new or unregistered users that they could not edit, now there is nothing but a small padlock. Please, whoever removed it put it back in RyanPostlethwaite^{See the mess I've created or lets have banter} 00:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

From Template:Sprotected2:

This template [{{sprotected2}}] should be used for pages that are semi-protected for longer periods (for brief semi-protection please use {{sprotected}}) or where the other semi-protection template may be untidy.

Saddam Hussein has been, and most likely will continue to be, semi-protected for a long period of time. Perhaps un-protection may occur when the article becomes linked from the Main Page. Additionally, with so many templates at the top of the article, the {{sprotected}} template is also untidy. -- tariqabjotu 01:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but we are likely to have many new readers as a result of the execution, and without a banner they won't understand that this article is an exception and so they can't edit it. Simesa 02:04, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Well... I unprotected the article. It had been protected for a month and the only thing better than being clear about why a page is not available for editing is to actually allow everyone to edit. However, let me point out that the Gerald Ford article prior to its unprotection twenty-four hours ago had the same {{sprotected2}} template. It's pretty much standard for articles that will most likely be protected for a long time due to persistent vandalism. As you will most likely see, many of the anonymous edits in the next several hours will be vandalism. Thus, the argument that the {{sprotected2}} template does not convey enough information is not really important; with long-term protected articles, many of the people turned away from editing are potential vandals anyway. -- tariqabjotu 02:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

dead yet?

Can we mark him as a dead guy now? Remember to remove him from the list of living people 75.201.82.175 02:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Watch BBC news or something.. "BREAKING NEWS: SADDAM HUSSEIN Al Hurra TV: Former dictator executed" although I'd wait for other sources, too. --84.249.253.201 03:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

CBS and FOX say he's dead. NBC and ABC have not broken in, so obviously they don't think he's dead (or they like Jeopardy! and Extra better) Bduddy 03:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The execution has been confirmed on all UK news networks apart from Al-Jazeera Eng. I would wait until it's been confirmed on there before declaring it official.

Al-Jazeera Eng are only stating that "media reports are suggesting he has been executed in Baghdad".

IRAQI STATE TV CONFIRM EXECUTION - OFFICIAL (SKY)

Saddam Hussein 'executed in Iraq' Should hep back up the SKY news. Loompyloompy313 03:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Vinylstellen 03:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Merging from Execution of Saddam Hussein

I can't think of what could potentially be in the recently-created Execution of Saddam Hussein that couldn't fit nicely here. -- tariqabjotu 02:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, Execution of Saddam Hussein should be deleted; I don't see anything useful there that isn't already here. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 02:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed - there's nothing that warrants its own entry there. RedHillian 02:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't agree - it deserves its own page while it's a current event. When all is said and done, then of course merge. ray 02:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't think so there well be controversy and conspiracy theories so we need the execution of Saddam Hussein, so we can put those things in there. And it deserves and article of its own. Pseudoanonymous 03:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Well its over now; let's see a merge!

• More importantly, let's see the videotape! It should be accompanied by Johnny Cash singing "25 Minutes to Go". Wahkeenah 03:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• I believe it warrants its own page - it's a major news event, and for convenience if nothing else deserves not to be at the bottom of an already extensive article. Yeanold Viskersenn 03:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Execution on its own page gives room for the international comments at the bottom, which are very worthwhile but would make the main article too long. Colin99 16:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

No, there's nothing there that shouldn't be put here instead. Unless you want a "final moments of XXX" for every celebrity that's ever lived--on this precedent. Purge it. --weblady 00:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Death

Saddam is dead. CNN has confirmed it as well as many other places. He died OFFICIALLY on December 30, 2006, not December 29. He died in Iraq in an execution, and it was Dec. 30 there, so that's when he died. Øřêōş 03:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Anderson Cooper states that it has not been officially confirmed by CNN on his 360 program... --Madchester 03:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

MSNBC.com has it as a breaking news headline though, and they seem pretty sure. And here's the article: [7]Homestarmy 03:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

CNN.com is only relaying local Iraqi reports... it has not been independently confirmed by CNN, as repeatedly stated by Cooper on-air, right now. --Madchester 03:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

CNN has not confirmed it. They have announced that it has been reported on two Arab-language news stations. They haven't confirmed it through their own sources. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 03:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Who cares about CNN. It's confirmed by Al Jazeera he's dead.

It was on the news, I know that. Wikipedia already lists his death... Øřêōş 03:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't remember hearing any time announcement of when Saddam died on foxnews. I just heard that he was dead.

Either way, he's dead now, is getting ready to be hanged, or is being hanged. He's supposed to die in the next 40 minutes, according to many news sources I'm looking at right now. Øřêōş 03:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The Deputy Foreign Minister reports via BBC that he believes Saddam has been executed. --Kind Regards - Heligoland | Talk | Contribs 03:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Every source that I have seen including CNN claims he's dead. Atlantis Hawk 03:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Let's wait for official confirmation. --VKokielov 03:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Fox is saying Arab media is reporting it. Apparently they waited until after the morning's call to prayer to do the job. Yes, confirmation would be good. Wahkeenah 03:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Well if Anderson Cooper said it then it must be true.

Did Saddam die in Baghdad?--Robo 03:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Executed at 6:00AM in Baghdad... --KCMODevin 03:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

According to every news source I can see at the moment, yes, he did. Øřêōş 03:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

FOX News says he's dead too. Surely, the world is a better place without him. (Eddie 03:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC))

We should photoshop a picture of saddam hanging from a noose and people all around him cheering.

Iraqi State TV has now confirmed that he has been executed by hanging. This has been confirmed on all UK news networks including Al-Jazeera Eng. I would go ahead and make the relevant edits now. Vinylstellen 03:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I already changed the death date to Dec. 30, as there's some debate on what day he died, but officially, it was Dec. 30. Yes, he's dead now. If it was filmed, as the BBC and a ton of other networks have reported, there'll be a timestamp, so we'll figure out the official time if the video is ever released. Øřêōş 03:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

His lawyer has confirmed this, supposedly, but I am not aware of his name. I know it's Isham something. Someone find this out. There is someone of Fox News claiming that they watched him die, but I might be watching incorrectly as i've been researching this like mad.

EDIT....... najeeb al nuaimi was the lawyer who talked to Greta. This needs to be updated.

Saddam Hussein was executed by hanging

While this may be satisfying to some people, this isn't exactly encyclopedia language... I suggest that someone who has access to editing this should change that to something like, Saddam Hussein was executed by hanging.

That was added at 5:06 and removed at 5:07, seven minutes before you posted this message. Vandalism like that gets cleaned up pretty quickly, especially on high-interest articles like this one. -- Chuq 05:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I went ahead and edited the title.

Why? Then the comment doesn't make sense. Changing it back. Eric119 21:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Hyperbole not needed. --weblady 01:49, 31 December 2006 (UTC)Note: The title of this section of the thread has been changed since these comments were put here. It used to have a generic body part name in it. I agree-that term should not appear in the final article. --weblady 18:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Last word of Mr. Hussein before is dead

According to Le Monde a French newspaper, Saddam Hussein last words were:

I hope you will stay united and I warn you: do not trust the Iranian coalition, these people are dangerous

The Iranian coalition could refer - state Le Monde - to the Shi'ite government. These last words have been reported by the witness of death, judge Mounir Haddad, says Le Monde. This is in contradiction with the statement from Times Online. What were the last words of Mr. Hussein has to be investigated further. Huygens 25 20:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Last words seem to be disputed. --weblady 01:49, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• If you know the language, you might be able to tell, from that grim Google video, what his last words were before he dropped out of sight. There seems to be a fair amount of shouting going on, so it's hard to tell who's saying what. Wahkeenah 02:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Last words are still disputed. --weblady 18:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

4 to 6 million deaths

According to the June '04 National Geographic, Saddam is estimated to have been directly involved in the murder of between 4 and 6 million people throughout his career. Anyone care to comment or add that note somewhere in the article? 69.244.153.46 03:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Good idea... You might find a place to put it. Start looking ;) Øřêōş 03:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

A list of executions or massacres authorized on his authority would be a good addition to this page because it's history and public record. Go ahead if you have the references. --weblady 01:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

References to "Saddam"

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't "Saddam" just his first name? If so, according to WP:MOSBIO all references to "Saddam" in article should instead be "Hussein", ie. his surname. For example, in the introduction text, one of the sentences reads "As president, Saddam ran an authoritarian government and maintained power and stability in the country." Shouldn't it instead be "As president, Hussein ran an authoritarian government and maintained power and stability in the country"? I think this sounds more formal and more appropriate for an encyclopedia; it is also the style used by credible papers like The New York Times. KeL 03:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Good point there. However, many references to Saddam Hussein, especially on television news networks, refer to him as simply 'Saddam'. I don't know why, but 'Hussein' does sound more formal. Øřêōş 03:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Please see the archived discussion (linked to at the top of this page). -Fsotrain⁰⁹ 03:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

They were all on a first-name basis in happier times, when he was our ally. Wahkeenah 03:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I guess I was wrong. My appologies for wasting everyone's time. KeL 03:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

No, "Hussein" was his father's name, not his surname. See note 1 in the article which explains all this. -- Arwel (talk) 13:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Saddam Hussein was executed at 10:05 American Eastern Time, and 6:05 in Baghdad according to Saudi Officials. It was shown on CNN.

Rest in Peace old chap. You'll be missed. Allahu Akbar. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 88.113.137.249 (talk) 10:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

Naming conventions in that part of the world differ from those used in Western Europe and the US. Sadaam Hussein was widely referred to as Sadaam. --weblady 18:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

semi protect

anyone think this should be semi peotected? Jerrycobra 03:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Too many people are attempting to edit it and it has been repeatedly vandalised. AntonCernan 03:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)AntonCernan

It already is semi-protected. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 03:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes it was protected at 2:45 UTC but the template hadn't been added yet. It was added at 3:41. --WikiSlasher 03:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm bothered that it was locked. I was trying to add sources to a lot of the info. and doing clean up of the proseline, and it was closed :(

Nevermind. It's not locked anymore. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.53.29.52 (talk • contribs).

It's still semi-protected. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 05:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, well, it's locked now, and myself and several others are still trying to edit it. Particularly annoying, since we supposedly have our hands on video now (unless I heard incorrectly)

Execution

Why are we reporting this execution as if it actually happened? All reports I am seeing say it is still uncomfirmed. Even Al Jazeera says that. We really need to not jump on this and treat it as fact. --OuroborosCobra 03:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

CNN says it is done. timrem 03:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Why are you here then Fredd? --WikiSlasher 03:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Correction: In the time I took to write this, it went from unconfirmed to confirmed. --OuroborosCobra 03:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The B.B.C. reported it at 3.15, Sky news joined in at 03.17 and Euro-news rounded it up at 03.24. --

--Homer slips. 03:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

A lot of those reports, if you looked carefully, still said "Unconfirmed", that was the problem. --OuroborosCobra 03:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

It's fact now, and it will be revised at the appropriate time. --weblady 01:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Video and Pictures of execution

== اننا للة وانا لة راجعون....لا حول ولا قوة الا باللة...رحمك اللة وادخلك فسيح جننانة == Should pictures and video be put and linked on Wikipedia?

I suppose since Wikipedia is not censored. --WikiSlasher 03:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure it'll end up on YouTube... 68.112.145.146 03:47, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Its probely going to show up on CNN first they say they have images and are reviewing it

FOX News announced around 11pm EST that they were reviewing images/video also —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.53.29.52 (talk) 04:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC).

It has nothing to do with freedom of speech, but with decency. We don't deliver child pornography here either, do we? Probably some freaks will get high on it, but wikipedia shouldn't give them a fix. It isn't here to deliver them snuff.

Execution Video

A complete unedited execution video is available on this mirror Saddam Execution Video, I'll leave it to everyone if they post it or not.

Saddam is a Lawyer?

I can't find any reference confirming Saddam Hussein's profession is that of a lawyer. Can anyone point it out to me? Given that for the last 30 odd years, he has been dictator of Iraq, I think that would be a better description unless he actually did practice law. I don't think he held a formal rank in the Army, so we can't use that. Caper13 04:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• I have never found anything saying that.

I put in "government office" since I couldn't imagine anything better. Article says he was an army general, but only made so after the revolution. It just seems to me that, as someone said in an edit summary, "dictator" really isn't what we think of as a profession, while we have plenty of people who were lifetime government-employed. He seems to have been a lifetime opponent of the government when he wasn't in power; could he be put as "Revolutionary"? Nyttend 06:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

It's best to leave it blank. If "dictator" is an occupation, then we might as well put "elected official" in every democratically-elected politician's infobox. It's just redundant. Look at the infoboxes for other world leaders. This field is not always applicable and indeed usually isn't, unless the person actually held a real profession before the public career. KeL 06:47, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

No, he did not hold a college degree from my reading. He was relatively uneducated, a law school dropout. --weblady 01:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Merge Execution into this article?

• Definitely - House of Scandal 04:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Absoutely - StevenBao^{talk} 04:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Surely - No need to glorify the end of something negative User:rahul.acm
• Yes -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 04:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Yes Lcnj 04:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Indubitably -- RattleMan 04:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• yes, it should be—Preceding unsigned comment added by [[User:{{{1}}}|{{{1}}}]] ([[User talk:{{{1}}}|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/{{{1}}}|contribs]])
• Yes -- no need for it separate. RedHillian 04:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• NO --- Not yet, hold on it is being edited very heavily right now, we need that page unlocked for editing, once it settles down we can merge it here 65.13.3.52 04:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Not yet I'm afraid that editwarring and constant changes will cause this article to be locked. Let's have it over at a separate article until the recentism dies down. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 04:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
  • Correct, not just the problem of locking the article, but this would cause a significant load on the database too -- or would it? Anyhow for now it should stay separate until the blitz ends.65.13.3.52 04:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Ay. They should be merged as soon as possible. -- AntonCernan 04:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Why? Khoikhoi 04:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Not yet. This event is still breaking. Let the edits die down until taking action. Additionally, the article in its entirety is way too long. So I am almost leaning to keeping the main details and execution as a separate article. -- immunity 05:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

No'. This is a incident and deserves its own article. At least leave it a week or two before doing something premature. - Mike Beckham 05:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Merge" It's fork as is. What specific things about the "execution" can be talked about anyways? What kind of jeans he wore? Or what kind of a cigarette he smoked right before? He was executed at a certain time with so many witnesses and voila. That's it, not much to elaborate really... Merge... The article has grown and is well-structured, so a decision on a merger should be taken later. Baristarim 05:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Do not merge. This article is fairly long, and the Execution article has a fair bit of content on its own. Let the execution article be a "main article" for a section of this one, as it is now. If it must be merged, perhaps the Trial of Saddam Hussein article would be a better target, as it is directly related to it. -- Chuq 05:16, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• Not yet. Wait until more details of the execution are verified, then merge. Paradoxsociety 05:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
• NO i think we should wait, there is alot of information being poured into these articles, and i think we should wait till there is some kind of confirmation on some of this info that is being put into these articles, we should wait to see whaat we end up with. [user:MCoop06]
• Definitely not Many have worked to make a detailed, well-structured article out of this within a matter of hours. It can only grow from this point. I think it is large enough to stand in its own right.
• Wait Its too early --sony-youth^talk 19:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

There should not be an additional "Execution of Sadaam Hussein" article unless you want an article on the demise of every celebrity. The information belongs in this article and should be put in the proper perspective here. --weblady 01:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Military dictator

Saddam Hussein, like his predecessors going right back to Abdul Kassem wasn't a President of Iraq. - (203.211.74.39 04:27, 30 December 2006 (UTC))

Why can't a person be both president and military dictator? --WikiSlasher 09:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm just surprised there is little to no mention of the bad things he did...--68.95.230.168 04:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

If you wish to have his 'bad things' mentioned, find source information and edit the article yourself.

It all needs to be added and put in the historically correct perspective yet. --weblady 01:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Minor POV wording issue

Concerning this sentence:

The stranglehold of the old elites (the conservative monarchists, established families, and merchants) was breaking down in Iraq.

While I'm not particularly biased towards "old elites", the term "stranglehold" is definitely not a neutral term. If you talked to the "old elites" or their supporters at the time I'm sure they'd describe their control differently (stewardship maybe?). Something with more neutral connotation is in order. Brentt 05:29, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, and for the end user using this as an educational article, something more informative though brief would be better. "The old elite" may not impart much information unless it has a context available to the reader. --weblady 01:13, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Retaliation

Nothing has occurred yet, but I believe retaliation will occur. A new section might need to be started. Spirit Of Truth 05:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

This is currently in the reactions section as far as the US measures for security in Iraq. We are waiting it out. Once any retaliation occurs, a new section will be added.

It has now been reported that a courthouse in Fallujah has been burned down by crowds and a bombing in Kufa killed dozens, as reported by FOX at exactly 2:30am

This will also need to be placed in the context of Sadaam Hussein after the controversy dies down. If as many people are killed in the retaliation as were killed in one of Sadaam's massacres, perhaps it will be able to edge them out for line space. --weblady 01:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

farewell letter

Many news sources have said that he wrote a farewell letter to the world and that an english translation was posted on a baathist website. Can anyone find this? --M i c 06:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/27/AR2006122700799.html

http://www.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/story/0,22049,20990518-5001021,00.html

-- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 06:05, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I meant the complete translation, not a secondary source. --M i c 06:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The Daily Telegraph article appears to be the complete translation. -- Jim Douglas ^(talk) _(contribs) 06:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Its the best I've seen at least. --M i c 06:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Cause of death ?

Snapping of the neck as caused by the noose and the floor dropping out, or by the eventual suffocation and restriction of the oxygen and air passage way to the throat and to the lungs ?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Berniethomas68 06:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Hanging Achille 06:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, I was going to say an acceptable abbreviation would be 'hanging' 06:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, he died instantly, -- implies there was no suffocation, but just the snap. Now if if hanging is not acceptable, what is? Snapping of the neck? -- what caused that? Sudden and immediate tightening of the rope && acceleration... and that was caused by, um gravity and tension... you get the idea Achille 06:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Inquiries about this document probaby don't belong here. The search ought to use a search engine instead. This document should not be included in this account UNLESS you have also printed the Unabombers Manifesto with his entry in Wikipedia and Hitler's final letters with his account. It is the same kind of literature. --weblady 18:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

on his way to hell?

please remove the phrase, "currently he's probably on his way to hell". Yelin

That was added at 6:05, removed at 6:07, and your message was posted at 6:31. -- Chuq 06:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont agree at all. Why do you think so? SqueakBox 17:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Unknowable content and no references. Don't include. --weblady 01:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

can we remain pro

as evil as sadaam is, we should not celebrate a death but mourn that sometimes in the intrest of humanity these choices have 2 be made. I will not soapbox but i must ask that the colorful language and ref to hell be left for cheap forums. one reason for this is you attrack more hositlity from anyone against what happened to him. I can think of some other people that need the neck noose 4 ongoing crimes against humanity--HalaTruth(ሀላካሕ) 06:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The section above was quoting a previous edit. Wikipedia is not censored -- Chuq 07:06, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

This makes absolutely NO SENSE whatsoever. Did it come out of babelfish or something? --weblady 01:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Can we have a "Contemporary" picture of Saddam as the first picture in the article please?

doesn't do justice to who he was and what he represented. Can we have something like [8] or [9], etc. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 07:11, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

This is a current events piece, not a historical or biographical piece. There is no background other than the trial for the execution. There is no need to put any other picture within this article. The details are the most important part, anyway—Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.53.29.52 (talk • contribs)

What in the world are you talking about? This article is not about current events, this article is about Saddam Hussein and his life. Portraying Saddam as who he is most recognized as is integral to this article. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 07:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree. This is a biographical article, is part of the Biographies project. Zelmerszoetrop 07:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree as well. Opinions aside, Saddam was still a former head of state. The picture should illustrate him as a political figure, as is the norm for articles on any world leader. KeL 07:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, this is a biographical article. I like the first photo.[10] --ElectricEye (talk) 08:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that this is a Biographical piece, NOT a current events piece. I recommend the second photo suggested [11] as it represents former president Hussein in his formal attire. This is standard practice of all former presidents, whether we liked them or not. ~ Eric 67.42.131.27 08:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't mean to be pedantic but does anyone know the copyright statuses for those photos? They're much worse quality and resolution. --WikiSlasher 09:32, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the copyright statuses, I just did a search on google image and came up with them. I didn't mean that we should use those exact pictures, I meant something like those. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 10:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

One of those photos of him with a ceremonial sword would be ideal JayKeaton 12:52, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I was actually going to comment that this picture is not acceptable for the article, we should rather find one from he's days as president of Iraq. As much as I don't like this man, I still think he deserves a fair and NPOV presentation, so let's get rid of this picture for the inforbox and find a better one! Snailwalker | talk 13:07, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Any other stamp collectors among you? I suppose we could try to use pictures from Iraq Scott#967 or #1264-1273 if they would be large enough. Of course, we'd still have to check the copyright issues... Nyttend 15:14, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

[12] would also be nice. If we can't find a good free picture, could we email the owner of one of these for permission? Nyttend 15:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Now he is dead we should have a pic from when he was President, having an up to date pic is only relevant for living people and it would be less POV and more respectful to the Iraqi people, SqueakBox 19:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

There's already another thread updiscussion on the picture. --weblady 01:18, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Current Events Tag

With Saddam now dead for almost 5 hours now, his life is no longer a current event. I'm going to remove the Current Event tag because nothing in the article is expected to change as a result of further developments. Most sources anticipate an anonymous burial at an unmarked grave, but even if a burial section is added to this article, it will be the only major change to the article due to current events. Discuss here if you feel the removal of the tag is premature. Zelmerszoetrop 07:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the current event tag should be removed from the top of the article, but it should be in the "execution of Saddam Hussein" section. --Ķĩřβȳ♥ŤįɱéØ 07:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Good call. Zelmerszoetrop 07:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I think that we should wait until 24 hours after his death before removing it. Before that it is very likely that the international reaction may bring about the need to update. 194.204.106.155 12:27, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Denied. Some people in the world are still asleep, it wont be a current event for those wikipedia users until they have woken up and talked about it. Wikipedia IS NOT just America and CNN ya know. JayKeaton 12:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Which is why the current event tag remains on the section discussing his execution. Zelmerszoetrop 07:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The only part that is current is the world reaction. This part should be edited after the fact when the controversy dies down. For the whole article, yes, the Current Events tag probably can be taken down now. --weblady 01:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Saddam is dead, therefore his life and hence his biography no longer reflects rapidly changing events.

Protection

I think we need protection for the article until the heat cools off SACP 08:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

How much more protection do you want? You have full move protection, and a semi-protected article. If you have any questions, please contact me at my talk page. Ian Manka 08:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Who is Saddam survived by (at the time of his death by execution)?

Saddam's family and relationship history is very confusing. Could someone please include a simple one-liner:

"Saddam is survived by wife(s) < names >, son(s) < names >, daughter(s) <names>."

Bonus points for including their ages. ~ Eric 67.42.131.27 08:16, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

A reputed son, Ali, although there is much confusion on this count. 3 daughters, the eldest two of which are widows, thanks to their father. Mother, and ex-wives Illigitimate children?? Probably many, given Hussein's habits. --weblady 01:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Rise to Power section

The Rise to Power section: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddam_Hussein#Rise_to_power, totally lacks mentioning of the fact that he used to execute his political opponents. This fact is widely known and citable:

• http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1100529.stm
• http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGIC,GGIC:2006-49,GGIC:en&q=Saddam+Hussein+executed+opponents

His "rise to power" was a bloody one, so please mention this. John Hyams 08:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Information now exists. John Hyams 16:08, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Must be included. --weblady 01:22, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

And now someone deleted it!! John Hyams 13:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Then it needs to be restored. It's part of the historical record. --weblady 18:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Mock elections & dictator.

It is ridiculous not to state the plain facts in the name of supposed neutrality: Saddam held fixed elections through oppression and most news agencies and governments considered him a dictator. I added citations as deemed necessary, but since this is a controversial article right now I'm opening up my edits to discussion before someone else does. -- Kevin Browning 08:30, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Speaking of mockery and elections, remember that election he held ca.2000, where amazingly enough he got all the votes? Contrary to rumors, the ballot had two choices:

__ Saddam if you do

__ Saddam if you don't

Wahkeenah 08:39, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

that's the second funny thing you've said! --WikiSlasher 10:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Hush, or they'll delete this one, too. Wahkeenah 10:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I see my true, relevant and referenced edits have been removed with no comment on the talk page. Does anyone wish to explain this action? If I don't get an explanation for this unwarranted defense of Saddam in violation of the truth and value of this article in a timely manner, I will simply put it back, and in an even more blunt fashion. -- Kevin Browning 01:06, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you to whoever put back the true and necessarily included fact that Saddam was generally considered a dictator. However, I see it has now been removed again. I don't have the time to play games about including what should be an elementary point of an article about a dictator: the fact that virtually all major news agencies referred to him as one. Hopefully some rational users will reinstate this basic and vital information to what has potential to be a great article. Thanks. -- Kevin Browning 09:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

There's an item on the term dictator updiscussion. The term needs to be included because it's one of the terms that has been widely used to describe him. There are many references to it when the article is revised. --weblady 18:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Photo

I think the photo of his infobox should be changed to a photo which was taken during his reign.You know,where he has his famous mustasheDimts 08:47, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

We discussed this a little here. Some photos considered are: [13] and [14] --ElectricEye (talk) 09:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

A photo topic is updiscussion. --weblady 01:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Invasion Term

Do you believe it is neutral to use the phrase "invasion of Iraq." What one person may call an invasion, another person could call a liberation, or something else. Maybe it would be better to replace the word "invasion," which seems to be a biased word with the term "entry" into Iraq.

Raindreamer 12:56, 30 December 2006

2003 invasion of Iraq is the name of the article it links to. You could neutralize it here, but it would still have to link to that article. The article says "The stated objective of the invasion was 'to disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, to end Saddam Hussein's support for terrorism, and to free the Iraqi people.'" Let's see how it worked out: (1) was easy, since there weren't any; (2) was relatively easy, as Saddam was in no position to do much terrorism support once he was driven from power; (3) should have added from Saddam and then it would have been "mission accomplished". The question is whether "invasion" is considered to be a negative. Battle of Normandy is called an "invasion", and few would argue that D-Day was a negative overall, as it led to Hitler's defeat. Wahkeenah 09:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

"Invasion" is a neutral word because that conflict was by definition an invasion. An "entry", as you put it, into a country on which you declared war is called an invasion. Some may call it an act of liberation, others an act of conquest, but "invasion" is the term for the act itself. KeL 09:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

"Invade" means "to go into". Typically it means forcefully and quickly. "Entry" also means "to go into", but without any qualifiers. Invasions are entries, but not all entries are invasions. "Invade" is the right term here, I think. Wahkeenah 09:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Refused to wear cap

Finaly Saddam was refused to wear the "BLACK CAP" over to his head, when he was about execution. Guddu 09:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

In fact, he seemed to be dressed rather casually, considering it was supposed to be a necktie party. He was dressed warmly, to keep him from getting cold feet at the last minute. Wahkeenah 09:45, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

This is not a forum for general discussion about the article's subject. ^_^ --ElectricEye (talk) 12:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Not relevant to the article. --weblady 01:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Please add oc:Saddam Hussein

Thanks, and Happy New Year.

Done, --Cpt. Morgan (Reinoutr) 09:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Not relevant to the article. --weblady 01:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

by who?

On November 8, 2005, Adel al-Zubeidi a defense attorney during the Hussein Trials on the legal team representing Taha Yassin Ramadan was killed. On June 21, 2006, the chief defense attorney for Hussein and his brothers, Khamis al-Obeidi, was kidnapped and killed

who killed those two? someone should add that. --SummerThunder 11:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Is there room? --weblady 01:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Italy is part of the EU

From the article: Also, Italy, Malaysia, the EU, Pakistan, the Vatican, Libya and others... Italy is part of the EU, it should therefore be deleted from that enumeration.--134.130.4.46 12:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Picture of Saddam at the gallows?

Is it really necessary to have a picture of Saddam at the gallows in the section on his execution? It strikes me as gratuitous. TimTim 12:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a tough picture, but I guess it is considered rather important for depicting the execution? Snailwalker | talk 13:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

But we don't need to 'depict' the execution; we simply need to document the notable facts about it. I don't see that the picture adds anything useful to the article. TimTim 14:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The truth hurts. Positive or Negative, all facts apply. 67.8.238.211 16:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I disagree. Only the notable facts need documenting. TimTim 14:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to have a picture of Saddam at the gallows in the section on his execution? It strikes me as gratuitous

It is gratuitous. But, the standard media is doing it so much that it's effecting Wikipedia a bit.

-- That Guy, From That Show! 19:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm not sure it is necessary. In fact, I think not. We don't have death shots of every celebrity and should not have them in this case either. That's macabre. --weblady 01:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I removed them twice since (with explanation) they had no encyclopedic value and only appealed to vicariousness and morbidity.

-- That Guy, From That Show! 10:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Please see the wikinews article before re-adding picture that doesn't improve this article.

-- That Guy, From That Show! 10:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, That Guy. I think you are right on this one. --weblady 18:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Broadcast of execution

Despite this however, countries such as the United Kingdom are unable to broadcast the execution due to national television restrictions, which deem the event "inappropriate" to broadcast.

Could someone make it clear that it is just the execution itself that can't be shown; footage of him being led to the gallows has been broadcast on BBC News 24 and Sky News many times this morning. 81.145.241.67 13:33, 30 December 2006 (UTC) Is there any reason they cannot shot the execution on the web? I mean legally?sorry show the exe..?

Not relevant to the article. --weblady 01:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Reaction to Execution

Since America and Britain were once friendly allies with Saddam Hussein at a time when he was executing the worst of his atrocities, I find it strange that there is not an echo of laughter over the moral superiority expressed by these same countries when discussing Saddam, and their gleeful jumping up and down over his execution. Why are we not discussing the giant elephant in the room: that America and Britain only expressed outrage over Sadddam's barbarism TWENTY YEARS TOO LATE and that they too should be held to account? Saddam was armed and funded in part by the administration of George Bush Senior, so why are not senior members of that former administration being held to account too? Have I not made the most obvious point in the history of the universe? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.202.154.66 (talk • contribs)

The talk-page is not for discussing politics but how we can improve the article. Snailwalker | talk 13:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Well put. None of this should be mentioned in the article anyway. It is all speculation. The fact the UK and USA were "too late" by this persons own view is down to many factors. One is the people of Iraq. John Major (the prime minsiter of Britain at the time of the gulf war) stated that he decided not to get Saddam out because he had already promised the people of Iraq he wouldn't, because they believed it would make things worse. Major decided to uphold his promise as he belived if he hadn't have done so, that the people in that country would never trust a British PM again. There are also many, many other factors (too many to go into) as to why it took so long to get this man, but this page isn't for me or anyone else to lay these out. 74.65.39.59 17:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Facts only, with references. This is not a treatise on international relations. It's a biographical article on Sadaam Hussein. --weblady 01:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Iran's reactions

Iran's reactions need to be properly covered as Iranians suffered from Saddam as (if not more) Iraqis did. Therefore a reaction from Iran naturally deserve to be covered much more than a reaction from a European or south american country etc. Sina Kardar 14:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Youth

He was sentenced to death in absentia. Saddam studied law at the Cairo University during his exile.

The first sentence doesn't make sense under the YOUTH category (his death sentence is not part of his youth - unless he was sentenced to death during his youth). It should be place under other categories. If this article is opened again, please try to elaborate on the second sentence because it also doesn't make any sense too - it may/should be part of another paragraph of this category and be explained further. Besciamella 15:03, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I take it to mean that the Qassim government sentenced him to death for his participation in the assassination attempt, which happened when Saddam was (officially) 22 years old. If this were referring to the sentence that got him executed this morning, it wouldn't say "in absentia" Nyttend 16:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Time of Death

I have seen several accounts of Saddam's time of death varying by about 10 minutes. I was wondering what we should use for the official time of death in this article. Also, the time of death at the top of the page is not the same as the one in the Execution section. Also, should we continue to list it as both local time and UTC? Bradkoch2007 15:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

There's alot of confusion in the Media. I'm not sure all the facts are in yet. Try to find some reliable sources that state the time. Also, i believe that we should use both times for now. It's important that we tell what time he died at in Iraq, but at the same time, make it clear what time he died at to the rest of the planet (which is why "UTC" is used). dposse 17:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Marriage and family relationships

I would move this section to after 'Rise to power'. This section after 'Youth' somehow disturbs the flow of events. John Hyams 16:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

No, the strictly biographical information needs to be kept separate in a biography section at the top. It's fine. But there were, in this case, family events that were political and these details can be put where they belong in the political account. --weblady 01:33, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Well, I still think otherwise, becuase many events that occured in the 90's are described before the reader can understand how he rose to power. Britannica does on its own article what I suggested (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9041630/Saddam-Hussein). John Hyams 06:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. I'll have to check out how they did it. Thx, John.--weblady 18:44, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

A.S.

As far as I know, the phrase "Alaihis salam" is used for prophets and Gabriel (Jibreel). It means "peace be upon him". The question is why does Saddam have that at the end of his name in the "Youth" subarticle. I mean, does he even deserve peace after what he has done? Please correct me if I'm wrong

http://islamicweb.com/begin/key_term.htm#P.B.U.H.

Fix it. It's not understood by most readers. --weblady 01:34, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Removing {{npov}}

• I'd suggest you all, not feed the troll. (re: above 'dictator' discussion) The guy is clearly enjoying the argument, and not businesslike and level headed on this.
  
     Since there is no consensus or disputed discussion indicating that the article is pov ahead of the tagging, such should be dismissed with contempt. Please stop wasting our time! If you can't list five to ten bulleted or numbered reasons which support your pov that the article is pov (THINGS MORE substansitive than choice of a single word!), please supply a shorter list as things which need adjustment— not disrupt WP (See WP:POINT) with unprofessional biased edits that make us all look bad. Such IN-YOUR_FACE templates must be used cautiously, are always controversial, and demand a list of 'problems' as seen by the tagger. They should not be used to hold good editors hostage to one persons slant on reality. She/he may be biased and unable to judge dispassionately. Any such tagging should be preceded by {{fact}}, {{disputed}} AND such line tags with appropriate discussion... not the shotgun of this insulting over arching tag! Best regards // FrankB 16:54, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The tag is argued above. This article is far too pro US, and if you havent been in on the discusion please check it out before removin g the tag,. IT is bad form to remove an NPOV tag without resoving the dispute, SqueakBox 17:26, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I did peruse the disordered talk above, and some points were raised and dealt with. To better see where I'm coming from, I invite you to add to the discussion at User:Fabartus/Wet noodle award and make some concrete suggestions as to how to get the message through to people that all such tagging needs a punch list other people can work against to clear such objections.{{I2]}YOUR arguments above were typically POV, and almost irrationally sophomoric and in a word stubborn.

   Since I've challanged you to put up or shut up, kindly ennumerate what is POV now... preferably by first inserting less offensive inline tags in sections or lines which you find off NPOV. You can imbed numbered inline comments in most all tags, and all will ignore extra arguement fields as well, so you can document your objections in one pass, then discuss using your own diff and elaborate for the rest of us; If you don't, your take deserves being treated with contempt, as you are disrespecting the rest of us and the project as a whole.

   I see you in gross violation of WP:POINT and am amazed at your childishness given your user page biography.

This kind of trolling doesnt help resolve anything, so I for one wont take Fabartus seriously any more, and will not be responding further to his comments, SqueakBox 18:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

For those into tracking incoherency, User_talk:Fabartus#Your_trolling_my_user_space documents more of my discussion with this POV editor that won't back up his assertions.

   It includes matters he'd rather you not see, apparently, as he's vandalized his own talk to hide them. So they're on the thread given— just in case this is his typical behavior and continues to cruise for an RFC.

   I also put together WP:DT (Wikipedia:Dispute templates) so he could educate himself on adding non-disruptive inline tags instead of 'bombing' articles with unjustified banner tagging against WP:POINT. Happy new year to all! // FrankB 07:08, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

"lawyers, officials, and a doctor."

Do we know yet if these were Iraqi people or American? dposse 16:56, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Probable that there may have been international officials, but was an internal judicial exercise, so could have been all Iraqi. Some of his Lawyers were American ACLU types, iirc, and so likely to have been present. Suggest such minutia can wait while news accounts settle out. The edit trail is getting murky with all the fiddling small changes. // FrankB 17:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Iraqis. View the videos. --weblady 01:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Reaction from countries

Who cares what all these countries thought of Hussien's execution...that section should be seriously trimmed down. It's cute that someone took the time to create it, with all those nice flags, but do we really to know what Finland or the Republic of Ireland thinks of his death? Scott 110 17:31, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we do. This is an encyclopedia, and anyone who reads it and wants to find out the reactions of countries other than the US, Iraq and Great Britian will find the infomation very interesting. dposse 17:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

This is an international encyclopedia and we dont just care what America thinks. Thios is not an American encyclopedia, SqueakBox 18:10, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

It should be complete with all the opinions available of every country.. if possible. 67.8.238.211 00:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

No, not unless the reaction is bigger than the rest of the information. [It isn't.] This article is not about some international treatise on public relations. It's about Sadaam Hussein. Period. --weblady 01:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Scott -- You need to calm down, okay? Nomore POV from you. We need to document this, world opinion is crucial to this article. Nuff' said. Crud3w4re 08:27, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

POV balanced

The article was under heavy influence from propaganda touting an antiwar agenda. I've tried to restore the balance by pointing out that Iraq was a Soviet ally, not an American ally during the Cold War. I didn't remove a number of claim that I consider to be mendacious, eg the claim that the US supported the Ba'ath party together with the Egyptians since I can't *prove* that its wrong, only that I consider it an extremely unlikely piece of propaganda. Nor did I delete Heller's ridiculous claim that there were no Iraqi troop concentrations in Kuwait.Prezen 17:55, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Its far too pro western in its outlook, we need more info from the Arab world, that is part oft he poc v problem. Both pro and anti war sourced amterial needs to be in the article to ensure NPOV, SqueakBox 18:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't know where you get your information squekbox, but I can assure you that this article is about as natural as it can possibly be. "Far too pro western" is nothing but an accusation without any factual support. Reading your comment above and this one, I can't help but wonder about your feeling against "the west" or "the US" to be more precise. Please do not edit Wikipedia if you have such strong feeling against any nation or civilization. It will just end up becoming another POV article. Thank you, (Eddie 18:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC))

Dont tell me not to edit wikipedia, I have more experience than most of the editors here and like with many other bios I am concerned with NPOV. Not only pro Western but pro Bush, SqueakBox 19:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the biography should not represent a pro Western or Arab point of view nor should it be pro war or antiwar. In short, the biography must represent the life of the individual in terms of significant events known to be factual and as distributed proportionally within the constraints of space. In my estimation, the hundreds of thousands of innocent people that were murdered in the wake of Mr. Hussein’s ambitions, regardless of reason or intention, are more significant than any other part of his life. However, those murders are the least represented component within the current version of the biography and thus, the biography is found to be wanting. Veritas 18:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes but howe many lives did he save? With the West encouraging racial divisions I expect we shall see another Rwanda. I think we need motrer Arab sources and more criticism, for instance there has beenm massies of criticism in the press about the fairness of the trial but until I added something a bit back nopne of it surfaced on wikipedia, SqueakBox 19:02, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

How many lives did WHO save? Saddam? Excuse me, but Saddam was a mass murderer. Saddam had people's children raped in front of them to force them to talk. Talking about how many lives "Saddam saved" is an insult to those who were massacred by his criminal regime. Caper13 20:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear SqueakBox,

Your question above, which argues that Saddam Hussein actually saved more lives than he destroyed, is your apparent opinion and cannot be supported by the facts or any combination and/or extrapolation of facts. Moreover, any such argument is in direct opposition to the United Nations, almost every society in the world, all evidence supplied at trial, and is also an insult to the hundreds of thousands that were murdered by Mr. Hussein. You likewise contend that the West is encouraging racial divisions, thus, you anticipate a Rwanda like situation. However, the West and especially the United States has invested vast treasure and many lives to achieve precisely the opposite and no economic or ideological argument is present that could possibly conclude otherwise. Furthermore, demographics support the fact that the West consist of more racial, ethnic, and religious tolerance than any other society in the history of the world while the United States has promoted the same by many times more so than any other society in history. The simple truth is that the various religious sects within the Arab nations and/or tribes have been slaughtering each other for millennia, long before the West existed, and Saddam Hussein was more of the same but a mass murderer nonetheless and despite your invalid opinions. Veritas 20:36, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Facts, Squeakbox, with references. --weblady 01:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Playing Cards

From the "Escape" section: "they captured the former president's personal secretary Abid Hamid Mahmud, Ace of Diamonds and number 4 after Saddam and his sons Uday and Qusay." Maybe I missed it earlier in the article, but the Ace of Diamonds and number 4 are just thrown in without explanation that I could find. I know what it means, but some day someone will not know. Maybe a short explanation of the playing cards is appropriate? 69.249.18.49 19:41, 30 December 2006 (UTC)kingsley911

• Go ahead. One question: Is al-Sadr in the deck? Wahkeenah 19:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

This is an educational article and needs to be accessible to an audience. --weblady 01:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

inappropriate tag

How was it possible that the article was locked with an inappropriate tag? An admin should remove it, please!

SqeakBox: The article is NPOV. You have made edits in another article defending another dictator, Fidel Castro. When you write “With the West encouraging racial divisions” this strikes me as paranoia. You say you have a level 5 in Spanish. If that is true you could understand poetry. Here are the words of Octavio Paz, the main debunker in Latin America of stupid anti-West sentiments [P.S. Paz's words have been removed but can be seen in my talk page].

―Cesar Tort 20:09, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The article isnt locked. As soon as I put the tag on I have tried improving the article for NPOV. The media is far less pro Bush, even the US media, than wikipedia in this case. We need much more critiscism of this anti Saddam line. What about the criticisms of the trial? Of the hanging? Of the invasion? Just a deathly silence. if the article was pro saddam i would fight to get it poved in the other direction. I think is encouraging racial divisions, as the press are saying, the Sunni's see the hanging as a personal attack and racial tensions massacre people ebery day in Iraq. Nice poetry, vaya bien, SqueakBox 20:17, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Saddam Hussain's Body Doubles

Just wondering if it would be relevant to have a section in this article dedicated to Saddam’s body doubles? --D.Kurdistani 20:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Here are some links, about Saddam’s doubles
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1076722002
http://www.samsloan.com/saddams.htm
http://www.maddogproductions.com/ds_saddam.htm

Interesting detail if there is room in the article. --weblady 01:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Criticisms of trial

There is a huge amount of media coverage of the trial's unfairness. Attempting to censor this in wikipedia is appalling. Where are people coming from? Doers nobody here care about wikipedia, only editors who want to stitch up saddam? SqueakBox 20:49, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Saddam was convicted by a legitimate court according to Iraqi law. Thee opinions of some ProSaddam organization is just POV pushing. Are you suggesting that Saddam didnt commit the crimes he was found guilty of? Caper13 20:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Members of the judging team were all American puppets and you don't have to be a genius to know that. I am not from Iraq and I don't like Arabs but these can't change my opinions about the trial so we don't have to be pro-Saddam to talk about unfairness of his trial. Let me put it this way, Saddam rule caused deaths (like all other rules) but it wasn't the job of America to judge him. Deliogul 21:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like POV to me. 69.234.201.208 21:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

All of you, please, read the template at the top of this page. As for you, Squeakbox, find notable "media coverage of the trial's unfairness" and I will revert anyone who attempts to "censor" it for you.Bduddy 21:24, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The trial before the SICT failed to satisfy international fair trial standards. Political interference undermined the independence and impartiality of the court, causing the first presiding judge to resign and blocking the appointment of another, and the court failed to take adequate measures to ensure the protection of witnesses and defence lawyers, three of whom were assassinated during the course of the trial. Saddam Hussein was also denied access to legal counsel for the first year after his arrest, and complaints by his lawyers throughout the trial relating to the proceedings do not appear to have been adequately answered by the tribunal. The appeal process was obviously conducted in haste and failed to rectify any of the flaws of the first trial.

Amnesty International AndyMcCarthyUK 21:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

The trial satisfied Iraqi law. Those are the standards that are relevant. There is no such thing as a commonly agreed upon set of International Fair Trial Standards. What is put forward as these standards is simply one group's opinions of the way they think things ought to have been done and their view is POV. Saddam was tried for crimes committed in Iraq, by an Iraqi judge under Iraqi law. Though it isnt relevant, while his trial wasnt perfect...and no trial is (which is why that whole argument is a canard...unless the trial was perfect, it is tainted) much of the violence against witnesses which you cite, was committed by groups SUPPORTING Saddam. Iraq is a sovereign state and no outside group has authority over its judicial system to dictate the terms by which a criminal who committed crimes in Iraq, will be tried. Most of the complaints are nitpicking by those seeking to discredit the result.

Caper13 01:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

"Iraq is a sovereign state and no outside group has authority over its judicial system". What kind of a dream world you are living in? American and British troops are controlling the area and only Iraqi people who have power in the country are the allies of America (Barzani, Talabani). Deliogul 10:01, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Uhm, that's the way it works. If you don't like it, go to Iraq and become a citizen and vote. Works the same way there as it does here. If you don't like a political party, you make a campaign against them. This is not the place to debate whether or not the Shiites are allies of America. 67.8.238.211 13:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Barzani and Talabani are not Shiite, they are Kurdish. Barzani is the warlord of a powerful Kurdish clan and Talabani is the leader of the Kurdish nationalists. Please, you don't even know who is who! "If you don't like it, go to Iraq and become a citizen and vote" come on what is this! Occupation forces are ruling the country and Iraqi people have no power to say something against it since there is no democracy. Iraq is in, somewhat, a civil war. There are no peace birds and happy people voting for their future. Please come back to reality. Deliogul 13:51, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I hope you rot in hell with Saddam and the rest of his cronies. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.8.238.211 (talk) 19:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC).

He's dead. The trial happened. If you dispute its legitimacy, this is not the place to get into a pi$$ing match about it. Wikipedia is not a forum for your personal opinions. Get references or cool it. --weblady 18:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

I cant belive on this article regarding Saddam that it's seen ok for people to type biased reports coming from there own political beliefs. This is supposedly supposed to be a netural report, yet it has rubbish information saying Tony Blair and George Bush are war criminals and should be punished in the hauge for there illegal occupation of Iraq, which of course is totally debatable.

Is this is a unbiased netrual encyclopedia for people to read and learn off, or a propoganda web site for muslims and other people who dispise the Western world to vent there anger on ??

Please whoever is in charge of moderating Wiki, please sort this article out as it's very offensive and not at all eduacational to anybody doing any research on Saddam's life.

Neil Of Cardiff 21:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Neil, click the edit button and change it yourself. This is a wiki which anyone can edit, so it's possible that there are mistakes. --Majorly (Talk) 21:38, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Being a war criminal is a strange thing because you can't be one before you loose the war. Believe me, Bush would become a war criminal (and directly be hanged) if Iraq would invade America. Saddam was officially the president of Iraq and there is not a divine fate or the justice of democracy in this situation. Deliogul 21:40, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

What the heck are you guys talking about? First off Neil, I dont see the section you are refering too, where does it say Bush and Blair are War Criminals? I will gladly erase it like I have erased other non facts w/o citations. And Deliogul? What the heck are you talking about? Iraq invading America? Would the UN approve this liek they did the Iraq war? Plese keep your POV off of Wikipedia -peterp

If you had come on 10 mins ago Pete you would of seen the paragraph so dont call me a liar. It was on there as thats why I made this comment, So dont call me a liar as I am not in the habbit of making such things up. Also I am not going to get involved in a political debate with you, this is neither the time or the place. I have just checked the article and thankfully it's been removed so obviously I'm not the only one who though it was wrong to to type such biased garbage. So now I am happy anyway.

Neil Of Cardiff 21:50, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Unfortunately, Neil, one of the down sides of a wiki is that individuals intent on vandalism or point-of-view pushing can take advantage of the very system that allows us to accumulate a depth of knowledge that makes such good articles. In high traffic articles such as this, such vandalism will not last long (indeed, probably less than a a minute). Thanks for pointing it out, but in future it would be a great help if you could revert such editing yourself. Rockpocket 21:58, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Neil, Next time just erase wrong info. At least we are both now happy! Wrong info or non cited info like you pointed out should be removed and I thank you for pointing it out... 66.31.222.89 peterp

Of course Iraq can't invade America! I was just thinking but enough is enough. People come and say he was a dictator. He was one but we don't even call Stalin a dictator here (his dictatorial rule is in the article but his occupation was being the generaly secretary of the communist party) so we must call Saddam the fifth president of Iraq. Also, it is not the legality of something which makes it good. Whatever UN and you people say, entering a country by force and causing the deaths of thousands is no good but whatever. I'm just angry because of that guy who thinks the execution was the divine fate and it was according to the God's plan. Now, this is unrealistic. Not what I wrote... Deliogul 22:13, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I find the American attitudes here highly revealing. And highly depressing for the rest of us. The guy with visiopns is [probably a paranoid schizophrenioc and would be well advised to see a doctor...all this stuff does kill people.......every day, SqueakBox 22:15, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

• Theoretically, everything that happens is God's will... including the Republicans getting whomped in the recent American elections. Wahkeenah 22:28, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Dear SqueakBox,

Your question (in POV) above, which argues that Saddam Hussein actually saved more lives than he destroyed, is your apparent opinion and cannot be supported by the facts or any combination and/or extrapolation of facts. Moreover, any such argument is in direct opposition to the United Nations, almost every society in the world, all evidence supplied at trial, and is also an insult to the hundreds of thousands that were murdered by Mr. Hussein. You likewise contend that the West is encouraging racial divisions, thus, you anticipate a Rwanda like situation. However, the West and especially the United States has invested vast treasure and many lives to achieve precisely the opposite and no economic or ideological argument is present that could possibly conclude otherwise. Furthermore, demographics support the fact that the West consist of more racial, ethnic, and religious tolerance than any other society in the history of the world while the United States has promoted the same by many times more so than any other society in history. The simple truth is that the various religious sects within the Arab nations and/or tribes have been slaughtering each other for millennia, long before the West existed, and Saddam Hussein was more of the same but a mass murderer nonetheless and despite your invalid opinions. Veritas 22:44, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

SqueakBox: This is a wikipedia. If you have something to add, then get a reference and make it neutral and informative. This is not the place for political bombast and nationalism. Get to the point and provide an acceptable reference. weblady, 6:16, Dec 30, 2006

Peterp, please calm your butt down. In my eyes, Bush and Blair ARE war criminals. And secondly, Iraq had been excluded from the UN before the time the US had attacked him. -- WiiVolve 02:43, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Once again, this is NPOV. Stop making suppositions. If we are going to say that, then the Former Soviet Union leaders are war criminals for attacking Afghanistan.. just because some people die, doesn't make them war criminals. Get over yourself and let's get back to the subject at hand.67.8.238.211 13:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Saddam's hanging is just another case of a nation's people getting revenge on the guy who oppressed them for many years, as with the French Revolution, Benito Mussolini, the Ceauşescus and so on. In the end, Saddam got what he gave to countless others. Whether it made good strategic sense to overthrow him is another question altogether. Wahkeenah 03:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The above is your opinion Wahkeenah. Wikipedia is about facts. --weblady 18:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

conspiracies section

The conspiracies section seems to onnly be about his execution. Perhaps it should be moved to the actuall article about the execution? Ilikefood 22:48, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Correct. The information about the execution should follow the technical details about the outcome of the trial as it was its logical outcome. --weblady 19:00, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Vandals

Some 'clever' person changed 'Saddam' to 'Bush' around in the artice, and I also spotted some nonsense about a sexy general.. 89.10.26.141 22:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out. It looks like it's been dealt with. If, however, it hasn't yet, it will soon will be. dposse 22:59, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

News wire?

As approximately one-third of the introduction is about events that unfolded in the last two months, and as the events of one day are described at roughly the same length as the events of twelve years, extra vigilance is required to ensure that the latest news stories are not given undue weight. Saddam's execution deserves about one sentence in the lead: we do need paragraphs about Saddam's emotions, statements, or appeals in the moments leading up to his death. While such things make for great news stories, they have only a minor place, if any, in ecyclopedic articles. Remember, the introduction is supposed to be a summary of the entire article, and clearly Saddam's brutal rule, rise to power, and foreign relations comprise a larger chunk of the article than his execution. This article should not become a news wire; that is what Wikinews is for. -- WGee 23:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Since his death is a recent event, it's logical that wikipedians would want to have that infomation at the top. It's also very logical that the recent events would get more attention, since the Media covered them more closely than the death of a United States President. However, when things cool down, all of the infomation should be placed in the proper sections. Yes, i said all the infomation. While we do have the requirement that this article be NPOV, what he said before he died is relevant. He was, after all, a leader of a country. We do need the infomation about the appeals, his emotions, and his finals words because that's history. If there's one thing that Wikipedia is for, it's for writing about history. dposse 23:20, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

This always happens in historical accounts, if you've noticed. D-Day was more important than some anonymous Tuesday, for instance. The amount of line space on each item needs to be alotted on an importance basis, such that the most important items to the life of Sadaam Hussein receive the most line space. Sort of obvious, isn't it? --weblady 01:43, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The intro text is getting out of hand

The intro as it stands right now is overlong and turning into a debate. Basically there is too much information that really cannot be made NPOV without going into an indepth discussion. Just look at the second paragraph--it's ridiculous. The intro should give just the plain facts and leave all that controversial debate to the body of the article.

I will try to rewrite the intro into something more like that of Slobodan Milošević, another controversial figure where the intro smartly avoids going into points that are best left to indepth discussion. Notice that article's intro gives adequate context without jumping into things like "He was and remains a popular hero..." followed by a sentence like "However, he is hated by many Iraqis for the murder of their relatives and loved ones..." Just a no-nonsense summary of what happened. KeL 23:23, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed on that fact that this shouldn't be a debate, but rather a historical account. Editing needed. References required. --weblady 18:50, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Trial section also "out of hand"

Is it just me or is the trial section (a) way too long (particularly for a topic about which there is a dedicated sub-article) and (b) very poorly written as it consists entirely of bullet points followed by dates and descriptions of events? Would anyone object if I (or someone else) tried to shorten it to its essentials while leaving the details to the appropriate sub-article? --ElKevbo 00:56, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Good idea. If you are willing, go ahead and do so. The section should not be a timeline, but rather in parenthetical form. Pepsidrinka 01:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Compared to the rest of his life, the trial space is too long. But I suspect people are recording it disproportionally because it just happened. Needs to be adjusted to its proper place in the whole account. --weblady 01:45, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

This is the execution Video (Posted by Investigative Reporter Robert Paisola)

I've made the section much shorter. Please feel free to further edit it as necessary and desirable! --ElKevbo 05:40, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Execution

"Film footage has been aired on American television up to the time of the noose being wrapped round his neck, however the full execution can be viewed on the Internet."

We aren't advertising his execution, are we? Someone who reads this will immediately go off to YouTube or Google Videos and look for it. I strongly suggest that we remove the last phrase "...however the full execution can be viewed on the Internet."

-- WiiVolve 02:38, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The fact that there was video at all isnt even notable. Why do we need to mention it. This is not the evening news. We are writing an encyclopedia article. Caper13 02:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the fact that there is video is very notable. They made the video for the Iraqi people, to prove to them that he died. That's notable, considering the climate in Iraq. dposse 04:17, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Well there's a difference between the footage on worldwide media, and the leaked cell phone. While I'm sure it's tame compared to other snuff (Not that I would know), this doesn't seem like appropriate material for Wikipedia to be linking to. PlayItBogart 05:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Based on what wiki guideline? Wahkeenah 05:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Caper13 and WiiVolve. It needs to be removed. It's similar to someone on the WW2 page that: ""...however many clips can be viewed on the internet." There's no reaso in saying that. 67.84.46.162 07:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The above is me, didn't know I was logged out. Crud3w4re 07:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

He went out in style ! Well despite all his murderous deeds & violent acts, he showed exemplary bravery at the end and went out in great style with a load of insults ! <==opinion. This is about facts and references. --weblady 18:51, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Crimes

There is almost no mention of the crimes committed under Saddams regime.

Evidence? Also, please sign your entries. The most that can be said is "assumed by some" or in different words, we need more evidence. Crud3w4re 07:58, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Another section in this thread talks about these events. A list with references is desirable, I think. They are a matter of the historical record. There are many witnesses. --weblady 19:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

The Iran/Iraq War section

This section needs to be divided into sub-sections, i.e. heading 4s. The war section is too long, and there must be a pointing to the Kurdish massacre, for which Saddam was executed. Someone is repeatingly deleting these headings. John Hyams 07:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

John, I restored the headings as the were stable for several years. See the note I posted on your talk page. [15] 172 | Talk 07:16, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

John, but we must not conduct POV here. Where's the evidence that he made the order? Yes, he was "convicted", but it is widely seen as a puppet trial. And so we cannot presume that he did it, we can only go on the evidence available. I think that two things should be looked at when it comes to wording:

Is there's enough evidence that Iraq gassed the Kurds? If so, it should be seen as fact. But if there's no real evidence, that has to be noted as well. Also, how is it proved that Saddam ordered it? If he ever ordered anything? So, I don't think it's safe to say he did these things, assume, yes. Crud3w4re 08:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

There are photographs and there are witnesses. References are needed, yes. --weblady 19:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Iranian Gas? US backed decision?

I think we should mention something about Saddam's lawyer saying on FNC, in a call-in to Greta Van Susteren, that he alledges the US controlled the trial, and he said that Iran gassed the Kurds [I think] This should atleast be investigated. What's his lawyers name? Crud3w4re 08:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh my goodness! He died? Last I heard he was going to be executed! Was it an accident? What happened?? 211.223.80.173 08:20, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• Where you bin, boy? They gave him a necktie party last night. True to form, he was defiant to the end, getting in a shouting match with the onlookers. USAToday said he was reciting a prayer as they were giving him the "bad noose", and that his last word was "Muhammad". I suspect they sugar coated that. I'm guessing his last utterance was more like a Donald Duck imitation. Wahkeenah 08:25, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

This statement is uncalled for, this isn't a place for your opinions of the man. Crud3w4re 08:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

• Somebody farther up the page called Bush and Blair war criminals. Where's your criticism of that statement? Wahkeenah 10:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Please don't Troll, doublytrue because you don't have the talent.

If that's directed to me, I'll take it as a compliment. If it's directed at the other guy, I'll let you and it slug things out. :) Wahkeenah 11:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

We are quite aware of the Bush/Blair situation and how history figures out who the war criminals and who are not. Adios, -- That Guy, From That Show! 11:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, we are. :) Wahkeenah 11:26, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

References, folks, references. Stop the pi$$ing matches over opinions. --weblady 19:35, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Who DELETED the section "Execution of political opponents"??

John Hyams 08:39, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

People are repeatingly deleting my edits, without any discussion. This article is not neutral, and tries to potray Saddam without the important negative facts about him. Not even one word about his family dictatorship, his $9 billion of personal wealth from Iraq's oil, and many many many many MANY other facts. John Hyams 13:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Agreed, John. The article must include the negative information as well as any positive. It must reflect the historical record or it will be worthless. --weblady 19:04, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Hadhrat Saddam (A.S.)  ??

Why is his name written as Hadhrat Saddam (A.S.) in the youth section?? Lennart.larsen 09:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

When someone did a rollback, they reverted back to the version that had all the honorifics in the youth section. Pepsidrinka 13:10, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Delete it. Not understood by the reader without more context than is necessary. Remember, this is supposed to end up being an educational article accessible to a reader. --weblady 19:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Translation?

can someone help translate this video http://www.alrafdean-news.net/Dec,2006/Shaaaheed_IRAQ_Sdaaam.3gp? might be useful to have it in the article traanscribed or separate but linked --F3rn4nd0 ^{BLA BLA BLA} 14:44, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

VANDILISM in Article

In beginning of article, there is profanity that I can edit out, because the page is closed to editing. Would someone with the ability to edit this page please remove the part in the beginning about him being a "PIECE OF S***" even though he really is. Unfortunately, it presents a bias point of view, even though it's just saying it like it is...

71.205.110.217 15:42, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Noting that Saddam was "pwned" is not necessarily vandalism...

While the description was accurate, it was vague, and not precise; "hanged" is a more precise term describing what happened to Saddam, and, besides, not everyone understands leetspeak. That reversion probably should count as one of a good-faith edit, rather than one of vandalism, but a necessary revert all the same. oh yeah, and Saddam suxxed big time oops, personal opinion inserted! 68.36.214.143 19:44, 31 December 2006 (UTC)