Talk:Saini/Archive 4

The first line has no source or proof about saini and mali being same, on the contrary there are ample evidence they are seperate tribes?

The first line which goes like this - 'This article is about the Saini (Mali) community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi.' clubs saini and mali into same category and gives no proof of them being same. On the contrary many people have submitted links on these communities being different, but that all have been repeatedly ignore. Please I request admins to delete this line since there has been no proof cited by the person who has called both as same communities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deviprasad1366 (talk • contribs) 14:01, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Instead of writing Mali in bracket the article should say that Mali also claim to be sainis since 20th century — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deviprasad1366 (talk • contribs) 14:05, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

The census of 1881 as shown on page 292 and 232 of the book linked below 'The Cyclopaedia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia, Commercial, Industrial and Scientific by Edward Balfour, Jan 1885' ascertains that Sainis and Malis have always been documented as entirely separate tribes in census. Same with page 232.

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=yvNWAAAAMAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA294

also

"At the time of 1941 Census most of them got registered themselves as Saini (Sainik Kshatriya) Malis." 

-Census of India, 1961, Volume 14, Issue 5, pp 7, Office of the Registrar General, India.

So we can be sure that Malis only started using Saini surname somwhere in early 20th century but they are a seperate community. So to avoid confusion, I humbly request admins to remove Mali from the bracket. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deviprasad1366 (talk • contribs) 15:02, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

To editor Deviprasad1366:  Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. And thank you so much for your interest in editing Wikipedia! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 15:48, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 August 2020

2409:4053:38F:A2F9:8E88:28BA:143F:DD5E (talk) 14:51, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Saini'S are Yaduvanshi Rajput. Many other castes are using this surname .They are fake Saini'S.

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Thjarkur (talk) 15:05, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 August 2020

2409:4053:2085:6DC:83FC:58F4:2E9B:B963 (talk) 05:29, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

This is not correct information..Saini and mali are different castes

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Thjarkur (talk) 09:54, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

He dont understand reliable source what is, even you thjarkur sir not understand our feelings you spreading wrong information in whole world specially in backwards country like india wherw we lives kindly remove mali word in bracket you can see in articles mali does not use saini surnames before 1937 Er. Hummy (talk) 10:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 30 August 2020

why you merge mali caste in saini caste articles, mali caste and saini caste are two different articles on Wikipedia in saini caste article simply we can mention mali caste have Started using saini surnames in 1937 please remove mali words in bracket in hatnote summary of saini caste it creates confusions many edit requests are coming to remove mali words in saini article as mali caste articles is different on Wikipedia they started using saini surnames in 1937 clearly showns in mali caste articles kindly remove mali in bracket

References

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_caste

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saini see above link two different articles on Wikipedia why you all merges mali word in saini article you all tries forcefully to  make saini is mali trying to confuse saini identity in saini articles you said saini is landowners zamindards on other hand you try to explain saini is gardner ,request you in saini article simply you can mention mali caste started using surname Saini in 1937 remove mali word, Er. Hummy (talk) 15:54, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Please see WP:RS, we try to follow books, journals, and sometimes newspapers. See also the talk page archives of this page. – Thjarkur (talk) 16:51, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Reference

https://enacademic.com/dic.nsf/enwiki/11683431#cite_note-Neo_Saini2-3 check history of mali caste Wikipedia is not reliable but this source is reliable please remove mali word humble request punjabi saini is not several edit requests are coming you can see please read articles by clicking ob this link both saini and mali are different castes ,latter started using Saini surnames in 1937 Er. Hummy (talk) 17:15, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

References

The source you pointed to is a mirror of Wikipedia. Please point to reliable sources. – Thjarkur (talk) 08:24, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/18786/NP Er. Hummy (talk) 16:16, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

JOshua is considered unreliable in WIkipedia. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 09:30, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 September 2020

Saini is Yaduvanshi Rajput caste in Punjab Rest Are Fake Sainis Saini is declared Martial caste while Mali is not Martial caste first line has no meaning Saini(mali) Remove Mali word 42.109.224.77 (talk) 04:18, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:27, 7 September 2020 (UTC)

Saini and mali are different caste

Saini and mali are different caste. No Mali in punjab region. Please take action Sainisardar (talk) 15:59, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

See above. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 19:01, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Removal of word mali.

There is no evidence that Sainis of Punjab are Malis , There are certainly proofs of sainis being warriors and belonging to Kashatriya Clan , Given the status sainis hold currently in punjab and Himachal. And its clearly evident that Malis started using saini name post 1937 to get into british army . This information is misleading and Mali should be removed with immediate effect . Xxyyystart (talk) 19:53, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Is this not valid proof? Dear Mods, Please take action on this , we request you!

The census of 1881 as shown on page 292 and 232 of the book linked below 'The Cyclopaedia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia, Commercial, Industrial and Scientific by Edward Balfour, Jan 1885' ascertains that Sainis and Malis have always been documented as entirely separate tribes in census. Same with page 232.

https://play.google.com/books/reader?id=yvNWAAAAMAAJ&hl=en&pg=GBS.PA294

To all mods, how come this link is not reliable?

Why is it being ignored, please understand this is a sensitive topic for Saini community and we are being mistaken for other group which lives in different part of India.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Deviprasad1366 (talk • contribs) 12:20, September 12, 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. Raj-era British sources on castes, ethnic groups, tribes, etc. in the subcontinent are generally not accepted as reliable sources for claims about those subjects. The general consensus of editors experienced with those sources is that the Raj authorities that were the main source of this information were not concerned with accuracy but with furthering colonial administration. If you wish to inquire further, you may find the Wikiproject India a good source of information. I hope this helps. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:56, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

ok then, how to establish consensus? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deviprasad1366 (talk • contribs) 17:59, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

What is your source of truth that sainis are Malis ? Nothing , just making wrong use of your authority . You should also do a bit of research before publishing anything Xxyyystart (talk) 19:57, 3 November 2020 (UTC) @Eggishorn: saini is rajput caste not mali see news below https://www.dailypioneer.com/2018/state-editions/2018-07-05-210907.html

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 November 2020

This page states Saini is OBC in Punjab yet the reference does not say so. Please do not include incorrect information. I want to edit this part: "The Saini community is given representation in government jobs and educational institutes under Other Backward Class (OBC)[2] category in states of Uttar Pradesh[3], Punjab[4], Haryana[5], Rajasthan[6][7] and Madhya Pradesh[8]". Reference number 4 states it was a proposal. Does not say it was approved.

Please change this statement. Sweetu101 (talk) 03:30, 16 November 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Added cite to show that the proposed decision has been implemented and the Punjab government has listed Saini under OBC regulations. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 05:31, 18 November 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 December 2020

In the hatnote summary of saini caste this article is about Saini community of Punjab haryana,himachial pardesh, jk, Chandigarh, delhi on other side in the article you have mentioned obc representation in Up, MP Rajshthan(The Saini community is given representation in government jobs and educational institutes under Other Backward Class (OBC)[2] category in states of Uttar Pradesh[3], Punjab[4][5], Haryana[6], Rajasthan[7][8] and Madhya Pradesh.) Saini caste does not exist in up, mp, rajasthan these are the malis who started using saini in 1937 after rajput mali described in mali caste articles , also remove mali in hatnote summary someone wrongly published mali word saini is martial caste declared in 1857 while mali is not martial caste in this article we can simply mention rajput mali started using saini surname in 1937 all saini are not malies See in the article's this article does not deal with utar pardesh, rajasthan, madha pardesh, so remove these states from this article in terms of reservations.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 03:38, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 February 2021

Saini and mali both are different communities saini are unreserved in many states like jammu and kashmir

http://www.jkscstbccorp.in/schemes-backward-classes.htm

also in punjab it was declared in 2016 by political parties before this saini declared martial caste

Also saini is Rajput caste. See news Rajput Mahasabha conference held

Ambala: The Yaduvanshi Saini Rajput Mahasabha, which represents the Sainis of Punjab, Jammu and North Western Haryana, held a colloquium in which the top level representative and spokesman of Akhil Bhartiya Kshatriya Mahasabha (ABKM)

Please change this article https://www.dailypioneer.com/2018/state-editions/2018-07-05-210907.html

So in this article lots of improvement needed. 

Rajput Mahasabha conference held

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Chariotrider555 (talk) 00:33, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Remove mali word with bracket in hatnote summary as mali is separate caste start using saini surname in 1937 saini are not mali source already given you above saini is yaduvanshi rajput. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Manvir Safedposh (talk • contribs) 01:18, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Chariotrider555 (talk) 01:45, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

This is reliable source I am providing you link of list of backward castes in the state of Jammu and Kashmir state of India in the list it doesnot exist it means saini caste is gernal in jammu and kashmir http://www.jkscstbccorp.in/schemes-backward-classes.htm.

Manvir Safedposh (talk) 04:20, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

@Chariotrider555: Manvir Safedposh (talk) 04:22, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Government websites and newspapers don't count as reliable sources for castes. See WP:RS, WP:HISTRS, User:Sitush/CasteSources, and [1]. Please find academically published reliable sources for content you want to see added. Chariotrider555 (talk) 04:28, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 May 2021

Remove the word ‘Mali’ that is written in the top-most line of introduction text . 14.102.118.174 (talk) 20:48, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Ben ❯❯❯ Talk 21:16, 24 May 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 July 2021

Remove Mali word from bracket with Saini. As Malis use Saini surname as short form of Sainik Kshatriya. But Sainis use it as it is since forever. No harm to anyone but both are distinct castes. Saini is a undivided punjab caste. 106.204.226.255 (talk) 04:44, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

•  Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -ink&fables «talk» 10:21, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 June 2021

Please edit Saini(Mali) to Saini only in first paragraph. Saini's are whole different community. Later it was found that Mali community adopt Saini surname. Major portion of Saini community of Punjab are Sikh, also mentioned in journal article on page 653 (singh J 1996) but here it represent that all of them Mali. Even the external link provided in wiki itself shows numerous reliable data of claiming Mali's adopted the surname, which represent that Mali community can adopt Saini surname but nowhere mention that Saini are Mali. Saini is a prestigious caste among Sikh religion and comes in top level discussed in published article by Singh J 2015 1986.

Roman Saini -Jaipur (founder of Unacademy) could belong to Mali caste but Navdeep Saini -Karnal (cricketer) isn't.

Singh, J. (1986, January). THE SIKHS AND THE CENSUS UNDER THE BRITISH. In Proceedings of the Indian History Congress (Vol. 47, pp. 649-657). Indian History Congress. Https://www.jstor.org/stable/44141615)

Judge, Paramjit S. "Caste hierarchy, dominance, and change in Punjab." Sociological Bulletin 64.1 (2015): 55-76. https://doi.org/10.1177/0038022920150104

https://www.sikhcastes.com http://yadavhistory.com/saini_yadavs

In the hatnote of the page Saini i.e. "This article is about the Saini (Mali) community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali. Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai " The word "Mali" is written in brackets with Saini which should be removed.

• What I think should be changed:The world "Mali" should be removed from the brackets in the hatnote i.e. "This article is about the Saini (Mali) community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali.

Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai "

• Why it should be changed:The Sainis and Mali both are different castes, Mali caste adopted saini surname during the 1930-1940 decade during the colonial rule. Both are different castes and this word is creating misconception among the people of other castes. Saini caste is descendants of King Shurasena whereas Mali is an occupational caste, both castes are different and mentioned separately in the census of 1881, also in later on cenus too. I am attaching a reference of the census too.
• References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Balfour, Edward (1885). The Cyclopædia of India and of Eastern and Southern Asia: Commercial, Industrial and Scientific, Products of the Mineral, Vegetable, and Animal Kingdoms, Useful Arts and Manufactures, Volume 2 (1st ed.). Retrieved June 23, 2021. anshsaini (talk) 05:23, 23 June 2021 (UTC)

 Done, and thank you very much! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 11:59, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 July 2021

Mali are not saini. Mali caste does not exist in punjab and Haryana. 120.21.224.5 (talk) 18:21, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

 Done, and thank you very much! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 12:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

I have reverted. The entire reason for semi-protection is because people repeatedly contest this (sourced) Mali point without verification. No idea why an experienced contributor would agree to remove it on request, given the history etc. - Sitush (talk) 13:26, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Maybe you're wrong? I've been involved with this before and have removed the "Mali" before for the very reason that it is not sourced. You say it is sourced, so show the sources in the article if you have them. Otherwise this will continue to be a matter of contention. P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 13:45, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Paine Ellsworth, have you checked the ref no. 8 of the article? I don't have access to it, but from the snippet view, it seems that the subject of the article, i.e. Sainis of Punjab and surrounding areas, are also called Malis. Here are some of the relevant quotes from the source:

p. 3090
In Punjab, the Saini living in the districts of Ropar, Hoshiarpur, Jalandhar and Gurdaspur. They are also known as Mali outside Punjab. They affix Saini as a surname. The community traces its origin from the time of the Mahabharata. They call themselves Shoor Saini or Brave Saini.
p. 3088
The Saini are also known as Shurasaini or Mali in the union territory of Chandigarh. Chaudhary is the title used by them. They claim to have been in the sena (army) of Lord Krishna and to have fought the great war of the Mahabharata.
p. 3089
In the union territory of Delhi, the Saini or Sayani are also known as Mali. It is stated that when Mohammad Ghazni invaded India, the ancestors of the Saini came to Punjab and settled down there finding the land fertile. They are settled in rural as well as urban Delhi. Punjabi is their mother tongue and they are also conversant with Hindi.

We obviously need to have access to it for getting the exact details, but the aboves quotes are visible to me by clicking on the following links: [2], [3], & [4]. - NitinMlk (talk) 18:25, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Singh is as good as a random John Doe. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:55, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

TrangaBellam, this seems like the only indepth & acceptable source about Saini/Mali from the mainstream scholarly publishers. Do you have any better source about Sainis? - NitinMlk (talk) 19:50, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

@NitinMlk The book (India's Communities: N - Z Volume 6 of People of India) you are showing as a resource is not valid or we can say it's irrelevant on the discussion because it was published in 1998.

& Mali started using Saini as a surname only after 1937, There is also an official order by the jodhpur government for the same which the jodhpur government archives and you can check it anywhere, though I have already provided you a reference for that malis adopted Saini surname in 1937 and the book provided by you as a source is published in 1998 which is irrelevant, Just because Rajput Malis of some states are using Saini surname and that too after a certain year (which have all the resources of it) it doesn't mean Sainis are Malis. Can you provide me any source that says sainis are malis by origin or before 1937 they were anywhere called as Malis or Gardeners? I can show you many resources about origin of Sainis and none of them mentions them as Malis. - anshsaini (talk) 17:04, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

Anshsaini0304, how does "published in 1998" make the source "irrelevant" or "not valid"? The article's WP:hatnote already gives details about the Rajput Malis. And as far as your "resources" are concerned, I have already seen them. In fact, even after my multiple explanations, you have again created a WP:BLP violation by using your favorite 'resource': [5].

PS: I have tried multiple times to explain the difference between WP:UGC and WP:HISTRS to User:Anshsaini0304, but to no avail. Maybe someone else can give it a try. - NitinMlk (talk) 17:33, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

I am not saying that a source published in 1998 is irrelevant or not valid. The main problem on this article is that Mali word written in brackets with Saini in the hatnote and I told you a lot of times that since 1937, Malis of Some states are also using Saini surname but that doesn't mean every Saini is a mali.

Wikipedia is to provide information, not to defame a particular caste. If you are really that much correct then show some sources that says saini are malis or have mali origin before 1937, otherwise remove that Mali word. anshsaini (talk) 18:30, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

When did you tell a "lot of times"? There is just a single prior comment from you on this page. Everything else has already been explained to you – see my previous response here. - NitinMlk (talk) 18:39, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Check your talk page, I requested the same thing to you there! Your "explanation" is not satisfactory for many users as you can see in the previous requests, everyone have the same issue but you are just always changing the topic instead of coming to a solution. anshsaini (talk) 18:44, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I have already provided quotes from an academic source that was already cited in the article and am not changing the topic. Now that you can see the sourced quotes, you are demanding a source that mentions details that won't even help you in removing their alternative name. Anyway, here's a source which desribe them in early 1800s during the rule of Ranjit Singh:

• Gupta, Hari Ram (1991). History of the Sikhs. Vol. V: The Sikh Lion of Lahore, (Maharaja Ranjit Singh, 1799-1839) (1st ed.). Munshiram Manoharlal. p. 480. ISBN 978-8-12-150515-4.

A Mali was generally a market or nursery gardener. He was found mostly in towns and cities where manure was abundant and great demand for his produce. He was a skilful and industrious cultivator. He produced 3 or 4 crops in a year in the same field. In the Yamuna zone he was called Mali and in the eastern sub-montaine districts Saini.

- NitinMlk (talk) 18:57, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Again the same problem, the book you are showing me is published in 1978 and I have already told you that after the 1937, some people misinterprets Sainis as Malis.The first problem is that the book you were showing only allows a "snippet view". We don't know on what basis the author is claiming this and also that there are a lot of books by scholars post raj era that shows Sainis a completely distinct group. Why we shouldn't consider them?

I noticed another important thing that author said Mali was called as Saini in "eastern sub-montaine districts" i.e. the areas of Uttar Pradesh and Saini caste is found only in Undivided punjab not in Uttar Pradesh. This is also proving that author used modern ideology in that. From the above book you are accepting as source, what you can quote is that Malis were called as Sainis too but not that Sainis are Malis. and former line is already in present in the article Rajput Mali and Mali that they adopted a new identity in 1937 as 'Saini'. It's better for you to edit Rajput Mali article that now they are also known as Sainis. Why you are disturbing the Saini identity by doing vice versa? anshsaini (talk) 19:13, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Read the very first source provided by me, which says that Sainis of Punjab and surrounding regions are also known as Malis. How hard is it to understand that? - NitinMlk (talk) 19:31, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Okay, for your satisfaction I have rechecked the very first source provided by you. Now let me demonstrate some mistakes from that "very first source" which had became a sole reference to conclude something by you.

1. Currently from your source, we can only see a snippet view which can be seen as major problem currently because no one knows the exact information. From that source check on p. 3086, there is something mentioned about census of 1931 which is also related to the same problem which I am trying to describe here at Wikipedia i.e. at the time of census 1931 to the time of census 1941, a lot of people from Rajput Mali & Mali caste started to adopt Saini surname because of the order passed by Government of Jodhpur at that time.
2. Even you can check out that the same source which is more likely to be called as a book, shows that there are 15 results of the Saini but it is only showing 3 of them which are also in a snippet view. How you can rely on a book completely which even you can't read properly? Just by reading 2-3 lines of the book, how you can come to a conclusion specially when editing for a global encyclopedia?
3. The author of the book is not even a historian or any scholar, he is an IAS officer who is appointed as Director General of ASI.
4. Some policies that have been mentioned by sitush will always lead to disputes over this case because he says Raj era sources are not reliable but for the case Saini caste, it is necessary because that particular event occured in 1937 (In Raj era), the period when mali caste adopted Saini surname, so no one can do anything in this. Editors have to understand this and really needs to come to a solution.

anshsaini (talk) 04:40, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Anshsaini0304, firstly, this is not my source: it was already cited in the article and I have already mentioned regarding the snippet view in my first edit of this section.

Secondly, I have also already mentioned that this seems like the only scholarly source which is discussing the Sainis of Punjab and surrounding areas in-depth. If you have any other source which is discussing them nontrivially then provide it here. Otherwise, we will have to depend on this academic source.

Thirdly, we cannot use non-scholarly and outdated Raj-era sources.

Finally, if you don't have any scholarly source which has decent coverage about the subject of this article then there is no point in repeating similar things again and again. - NitinMlk (talk) 07:19, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

NitinMlk, Okay give me some some time I can try to provide you scholarly source that will meet your criteria.

Also tell me the reason to having that hatnote, I can't understand when the hatnote states this article is about sainis of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi then why it is written that sainis are given OBC status in the states of Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, Madhya Pradesh etc., Seems both are contradicting to each other.

There are many scholarly sources according to which sainis are farmers and agriculturalists and none of them mentions them as Mali, Will they be enough? anshsaini (talk) 07:43, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

So after wasting other editors' so much time in the last few months you will "try to provide" a scholarly source. And those are the community's "criteria", rather than mine. Regarding different states, Sainis are living there as well. Anyway, please provide those sources. - NitinMlk (talk) 07:55, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

It's just I don't know which sources wikipedia accepts, because I am getting trouble in finding those wikipedia community will accept and If you think your timing is getting wasted then who forced you to be an editor here?

You are still ignoring my question, There are many scholarly sources according to which sainis are farmers and agriculturalists and none of them mentions them as Mali, Will they be enough for you to remove that Mali word?

However again, I will suggest you to add in Rajput Mali article that are also knowns as Sainis. anshsaini (talk) 08:01, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

You have been told multiple times that you will need to provide a scholarly source. So why do you still "don't know which sources wikipedia accepts"? Anyway, if you have a scholarly source which is discussing the subject of this article nontrivially then please provide it here. Otherwise, stop repeating the same thing. - NitinMlk (talk) 08:11, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I hope you know the difference between a farmer and gardener, if you don't then please tell me now otherwise you will create excuses that time too, I will provide the scholarly sources according to which Sainis are farmers and landholders. anshsaini (talk) 08:29, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I am not making excuses. Please provide scholarly sources which are discussing this subject and are supporting your claims, i.e. Sainis are not known as Malis. - NitinMlk (talk) 08:37, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

https://books.google.co.in/books?id=wGiAoOmYVtEC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

Although this is in hindi but on the page 153 it clearly shows that Sainis were farmers. This is also a scholarly resource. anshsaini (talk) 08:49, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

The list mentions occupation of Saini Sikhs of a particular area (Ambala-Hoshiarpur) as farming in 1911. But what does this has to do with the discussion at hand? - NitinMlk (talk) 08:59, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Anshsaini0304, If you have any other source, then please provide it now, as I have logged in just for this discussion. - NitinMlk (talk) 09:50, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

I think you are thinking that Mali is something by birth, Mali is also an occupation, if a person is indulged in gardening then he is called Mali. Similarly, If someone is involved in farming then they are farmers. The basic difference is always that Malis used to do gardening in the field of others, Landholders are not Malis, just for your information.

Also check this scholar source : https://www.google.co.in/books/edition/_/Z2xuAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=Sainis

p.11 "Peasant-proprietors who were dominated by the Jats, followed at a great distance by the Rajputs, and then by the others like Gujjars, Arains, Awans and Sainis"

p.225 "The other landholding castes like the Gujjars, Arains, Sainis, Awans and Kambohs were less numerous than jats"

As you can see from p.11 Sainis are farmers just like others, also the main thing is that p.225 states they are a landholding group and a Gardener is never a landholder, Gardeners just work in the fields of others and landholders are farmers.

Now check this too.

p.225 "The other important peasant castes are of the Rors and Sainis."

p.228 "Kambojs and Sainis too, who are peasants like the Jats"

Every source is showing that Sainis are farmers and not the gardeners. anshsaini (talk) 11:57, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

But the source does not say anything about Malis, so it is not at all clear how it is relevant to the discussion. --bonadea contributions talk 12:29, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Yes, the thing is source doesn't relate Sainis with Malis because they are not related to each other, This is what I am also saying that editors should write the information in the article of Rajput Malis that they are also known as Sainis now, simply because Rajput Malis and Malis adopted the surname Saini which is also mentioned in their own articles. Just because Rajput Malis / Malis adopted a new surname doesn't mean that existing members of Saini caste also became Malis. It is definitely a better solution to describe more in the articles of Rajput Malis and Malis that now a days they are also using the surname "Saini", this will not make confusion to the readers that Sainis (Traditional landholding and farming caste) are Malis and give a better insight to both the things correctly to the readers that Malis also uses that surname. anshsaini (talk) 12:49, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

We are trying to disambiguate. Some people may come here thinking that Saini and Mali are the same thing, precisely because (as you acknowledge) the terms overlap. That is the entire point and it would be wrong not to note that there is an overlap & provide the reader with an opportunity to distinguish where necessary. - Sitush (talk) 13:44, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

Again this time you came to manipulate me as there is no matter of disambiguation here. I never said people will come to the Saini article thinking that Saini and Mali are same.

Just a repeat again What I am saying is that in the hatnote of Saini article, you are adding Mali word in the brackets to create confusion among the readers. I am pretty sure it will create a confusion among readers that Sainis are Malis, but we all know that they are different groups and Sainis are farmers and landholders and that's a different thing that Malis/Rajput Malis "uses" Saini as their "surname" but I am repeating once again that just by using a surname that person doesn't becomes the member of that caste. Moreover, no one will have problem in mentioning that Saini surname is now a days is also used by these Rajput Malis and Mali groups simply because it's true that they uses the Saini surname, hence no arguments on that. anshsaini (talk) 13:59, 8 August 2021 (UTC)

References

Ignoring and Partiality observed from the editors

I can see that the users Sitush & NitinMlk, are not replying now to the thread previous to this. They really don't want to come to a solution in the discussion. I request them or any other to reply on the thread if they want to say something otherwise, any of the editor change the article as requested in that thread.

Above contributor (Sandalkhushi (talk · contribs)) now checkuser-blocked. - Sitush (talk) 08:08, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 August 2021

Please change "This article is about the Saini (Mali) community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali.Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai."

to

"This article is about the Saini community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali. Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai." Bharal1978 (talk) 08:21, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Above will likely be another sock of Anshsaini0304 (talk · contribs). Reported for checkuser. - Sitush (talk) 08:45, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 09:02, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Consensus on the word Mali in the Hatnote

The word Mali in the hatnote is inappropriate and should be removed. Mali is an occupational caste whereas Sainis are traditionally farmers by occupation. Mali and Rajput Mali groups are found using Saini as their surnames, so it should be added in their articles. Bharal1978 (talk) 12:06, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Are you Anshsaini0304? Let's clear that up first because it is pointless wasting our time dealing with a tendentious sockpuppet. If you are not, please read the rest of this talk page & note that the consensus is already there because sources say what the article says - consensus is NOT a vote. - Sitush (talk) 13:10, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

I have read talk page and talk page archives. I am not saying that content in the article is incorrect, I am saying that Mali word should be removed from this article. All the sources provided previously are saying that Sainis are farmers and not Malis. Then Why that Mali word is still there? Bharal1978 (talk) 13:57, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Regarding that "consensus is already there", I agree it's there but you should also agree that it didn't came to any effective solution. I know consensus is not a vote, but it's required because article needs lot of improvement not it's not just about the Mali word. I have seen it's previous versions, I found that neutrality is not maintained by you many times in this and many other caste related articles. Bharal1978 (talk) 14:07, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Ah, you are definitely a sock of Andhsaini - there is a "tell" in what you have said. Please stop this because you are not going to get your way. Bye. - Sitush (talk) 14:22, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Sainis were not rajputs and not descendent of krishna

Saini is not kstriya rajput cast, it's a napit cast nai in hindi, they all are chandals, choke shudhra Kunwar virendrapratap singh bhati (talk) 04:25, 22 August 2021 (UTC)

Remove Photo

Remove the photo that has been added to this page. I clicked on the link and it takes you to a book where the word Saini is not mentioned once? Seems like a mistake. 20182309L (talk) 21:57, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done, and yet the "Mali" was removed from the caption, so thank you very much! P.I. Ellsworth  ed. ^put'r there 12:01, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Read the top of this page: This article is about the Saini (Mali) community of Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi. For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste and Rajput Mali. For the Bhagrathi or Gola community of Western Uttar Pradesh, see Bhagirathi Mali.

You have not solved the issue and may have made things less accurate. I am not getting into dispute about status like others (seems a separate debate)- Mali is a large group which Sainis may be linked to (or part of), but they are not interchangeable terms. The source for this picture does not mentions Sainis once in the whole book- to keep the picture there is inaccurate and you are confusing phrases, groups, regions and time periods. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 20182309L (talk • contribs) 20:09, September 10, 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:03, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

So someone has added a random photo and then someone else (PJ Ellsworth-see above) has come and made it even less accurate, and now consensus is needed to remove a clear error?? How can it be any clearer- the source for this picture does not mentions Sainis once in the whole book (which you can click through to) - to keep the picture there is inaccurate. This is not some debate, like some other points on this page, this is just a request to remove an error that has been found (please read my above paragraphs)! Mali is a large group which Sainis may be linked to (or part of), but they are not interchangeable terms. If you cannot accept a change this straight forward, what is the point of this page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 20182309L (talk • contribs) 20:38, September 29, 2021 (UTC)

 Done 20182309L Hello, and thank you for taking the time to contribute to Wikipedia! As a gentle reminder, please remember to sign your messages so readers can quickly follow the flow of conversation.

That said, I am sorry that this matter is causing you frustration. Please understand that for many editors - including those that patrol requested edits - that this is not a subject area those on the English Wikipedia specialize in. What you perceive to be a blatant factual error may not be as such to others. In defense of ScottishFinnishRadish, it is very common for users to request images be removed or added trivially when that typically does require consensus, and this was probably one of many edit requests he viewed on the 11th. It doesn't help that the image on Commons explicitly has the caption Saini bride and bridegroom with marriage crowns. It is curious that the word "Saini" is absent from the entire book, however.

For that reason I've boldly removed the image, as it is possible the uploader on Commons made an error. However, another editor can reasonably return the image at any time if they find I am in the wrong. If that occurs, and you feel that it is still wrong, I would advise seeking help from editors more versed in this subject area. Reopening this edit request, or making a new one, would not be the proper venue. A good start may be WikiProject India. Cheers! —Sirdog (talk) 02:42, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 2 November 2021

Change the first line from This article is about Saini(mali) community To This article is about Saini Community 106.204.231.33 (talk) 09:02, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Please read section #Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 August 2021 above. --David Biddulph (talk) 10:16, 2 November 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 December 2021

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. – Jonesey95 (talk) 06:06, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Saini Smaj Gotra

Maharastra Mali, Saini, Gola, Patil, Phule, Kshatriya, Mali, Vanmali. Bihar Mali, Kshatriya mali, Saini, Kushwala, Mehta, Shak. M.P. Mali, Kshatriya mali, Saini, Sainik kshatriya. Madras Reddy, Mali saini, Saini kshatriya. Orissa Mali, Kshatriya mali, Saini kshatriya, Umrav, Haldawa. U.P. Mali, Gole, Pushpadh, Brahmin, Kamboj, Baroliya bhagat, Bhandari, Saini. Hyderabad Mali, Reddy, Kshatriya mali, Sainik kshatriya, Saini. Mysore Mali, Reddy, Kshatriya mali, Sainik kshatriya, Saini. Rajasthan Mali, Baghwan, Kshatriya mali, Dhimer, Bhoi, Gehlot, Solanki. Punjab Saini, Mali, Sainik, Kshatriya. Haryana Saini, Mali, Sainik, Kshatriya. Saurashtra Saini, Mali, Rami, Shankarvanshi, Kaachi. Delhi Saini H.P. Saini, Kshatriya mali, Mali. Bagri,Songra, Chouhan, Bhati, Singodiya, Hankhla, Solanki, Tundwal, Parihar, Dagdi, Tanwar,Satrawala, Songra, Chouhan, Bhati, Singodiya, Hankhla, Solanki, Tundwal, Parihar, Dagdi, Tanwar,Satrawala, Songra, Chouhan, Bhati, Singodiya, Hankhla, Solanki, Tundwal, Parihar, Dagdi,

Adhopia, Agarwal, Annhe, Attar, Badwal, Banait, Banga, Banga, Banwait, Baria, Basuta/Basoota, Bawal, Bharal, Bhati, Bhela, Bhele, Bhogal, Bhowra, Bimbh, Bola, Bondi, Budwal/Bodwal, Caberwal, Chandan, Chandel, Chande, Chandolia, Chaudhry, Chayor, Chelley, Chepru, Chera, Chere, Chibb, Chilne, Dadwal, Dakolia, Darar, Daurka/Dhorke, Dhamrait, Dhand,

Dhanota, Dhek, Dheri, Dhaul, Dhole, Dhoore, Dhorka, Dola, Dolka, Dolle, Dulku, Fharar, Gaare, Gahir, Gahunia, Galeria, Galhe, Garhamiye, Garhania, Garore, Gehlan, Gidda, Giddar, Gidde, Gillon, Girn, Gogan, Gogia, Gogiaan/Gogian, Golia, Haad, Hadwa, Hansi, Hans, Hoon, Jagait, Jaget, Jagit, Jandauria, Jandeer, Jandor, Jandoria, Janglia,

Japra/Japre, Joshi, Kaan, Kabad, Kabarwal, Kabli, Kadauni, Kainthlia, Kalia, Kaloti, Kamboe, Kamokhar-Khatri, Kapooria-Kapoor, Kapoor-Khatri, Kariya, Kataria, Keer, Khabra, Khad-Khatri, Kharga, Khargal, Khatri-Andhaia, Khelbare, Khobe, Khube, Khute, Kuchrat, Kuhar, Kuhare, Lata Longia, Lularia/Loyla, Manger, Maheru/Meharu, Masute, Matoya, Mundh,

Mundra, Nagoria, Nanua, Nawen, Neemkaroria, Pabe, Pabla, Pabme, Pama, Panesar, Pangeli/Panghliya, Panthalia, Papose, Partole, Patrote, Pawar, Pharar, Pingalia, Pundrak, Puria, Saggi, Sahnam, Sair, Sajjan, Sakhla, Salaria/Salariya, Sandoonia, Sangar, Sangowalia, Saroha, Satmukhiye, Satrawla, Satrawli, Satrole, Savadia, Sehgal, Shahi, Sinh, Sona, Sooji, Sukhayee, Tabachare, Tak, Tamber, Tandoowal, Taraal, Tarotia, Tatla, Tatra, Tatri, Thind, Tikoria, Togar, Tondwall, Tonk/Tank, Toor, Tuseed, Ughra, Vaid, Vim, Virdee,bagri.

References

http://www.sainiworld.com/Website/A0SainiSamajGotra.aspx Rajender Kumar RKS (talk) 05:32, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Saini lives Gujarat also.. They living in ahemdabad deesa surat bhavnagar gandhinagar kacch and baroda etc city.

ગુજરાત મા પણ સૈની જોવા મળે છે. 2409:4041:2D04:10C:1A4C:8D29:DA08:ED3 (talk) 18:32, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation

I was looking for Angela Saini, uncertain of her first name, and ended here. There is already a somewhat length disambiguation paragraph at the start of the article, is it time for a full disambiguation page? 15:46, 2 October 2022 (UTC) Hv (talk) 15:46, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

We have List of Saini people, and about 80 pages with "Saini" in the title, so I would suggest either expanding our list or creating Saini (surname) and linking that in the See also section. Primefac (talk) 15:51, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 January 2023

27.63.169.205 (talk) 04:20, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

All Sainis are not malis.prior malis and saini are different

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Lightoil (talk) 04:42, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Saini/Shoorsaini are Yaduvanshi Rajput’s

Saini are Yaduvanshi Rajput only in Jammu & Kashmir , Punjab and North Haryana. They are among one of the clans of Yaduvnshi Rajput’s like : Jadaun, Jadeja , Bhatti , Banafwar , Chudsama , chakore .,etc. Some sudra communities like Mali’s using Saini as Surname by 1885 to get highe status in society. But in real they don’t have any cultural or traditional relationship with Shoorsaini Rajput’s. Shoorsaini Rajput (talk) 13:44, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Ye Yaduvanshi Saini Jadon Rajput fake banjare hain jo Uttarakhand and Uttar Pradesh ke sainiyon ko mali aur nakli saini ghoshit kar rahe hain.

Accha ab tak to 1937 me Saini title chori karna batate the but jaise hi one week before humne 1872 ke proof diye United Provinces ke vo bhi pargana ke according tabse tum farzi 1885 se Saini title chori karne ko bata rahe ho 😀😀 Avdeep Saini (talk) 13:24, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

State version of people of India

Sitush, the one used in intro, you are removing people of India from many articles. Is it good to keep it here. As it is also one which is considered unreliable. Admantine123 (talk) 11:51, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 See WP:RAJ. The "states" series is unreliable; the "national" series, which saw all volumes published by OUP, is fine. - Sitush (talk) 13:12, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

The one used here is state one. It's of Haryana. Is it reliable? Admantine123 (talk) 13:14, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 No. - Sitush (talk) 13:41, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Just a Reminder.

The Conversation we Had on Saini Surname Talk includes this Page. @Admantine123, @Sitush, @c.fred, @Mrjoegoldberg SikkaSingh (talk) 13:38, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@SikkaSingh It shouldn't do. This is a caste-related article, the other concerns a name. - Sitush (talk) 13:40, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

The Disclaimer above says "This article is about the Saini community of Punjab. (For the Mali community who were not recorded as Saini prior to 1937, see Mali caste.) For the communities in North India using the surname, see Saini (surname).

Not to be confused with Siani or Sinai."

Admantine here Again Combines the Both Castes, There is already a Different page made for Mali Saini which is Currently redirected to Saini Caste Page.

And in the Intro He Included Uttar Pradesh,Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh.Also he Excluded Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu and Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi and Just Left the Disclaimer Saying The Saini Community of Punjab.

On the Other Hand There is the Correct Statement on the Board just beneath it Stating the Correct Saini Populated States. Which are Punjab, India, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu & Kashmir, Chandigarh and Delhi.

Also he added

Castes similar to Sainis in north India are Koeri, Kushwaha, Maurya ,Shakya. Over the time, these communities have come together and started inter-marrying among themselves for caste consolidation.

With unreliable Sources of a Self Published Author Mahinder Lal Patel with very Poor Ratings to his Books.

Also he Removed a Very Critical Part of Saini Society.

Stating:-

He first made this A State article By Removing Other States from Disclaimer just leaving Punjab and then he Removed this Whole Paragraph.

Sainis profess in both Hinduism and Sikhism. They have a national organisation called Saini Rajput Mahasabha located in Delhi, established in 1920. noted in Puranic literature. The Saini community is given representation in government jobs and educational institutes as an Other Backward Class (OBC) in the states of Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, Haryana, Rajasthan and Madhya Pradesh.

As both a statutory agricultural tribe and a designated martial race during the British Raj era that followed the Indian Rebellion of 1857, Sainis had been chiefly engaged in both agriculture and military service. Since the independence of India, they have diversified into white-collar professions. 103.198.174.13 (talk) 11:32, 1 January 2024 (UTC)