Talk:Saini (surname)

Wikipedia team,in the state of Uttar Pradesh,saini people are get obc certificate in which is mentioned sainis are belongs Mali community — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2409:408A:8D89:D3A3:0:0:8E89:C20F (talk) 18:29, 24 December 2023 (UTC)

Saini surname

I know it is a frequently used surname in Punjab among members of Saini caste. But, currently I don't know the best source to include them here.-Admantine123 (talk) 17:59, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Jessie Singh Saini - Indian-American Industrialist

Deep Saini - Canadian Scientist, Principal and Vice Chancellor of McGill University

Nirmal Saini - Former captain of India women's national volleyball team

Angela Saini - British Science Journalist and Author

Shree Saini - American Model

Sanjay Saini- Vice Chairman for Finance, Department of Radiology, at Massachusetts General Hospital and Radiologist at Harvard Medical School

Tarsame Singh Saini - British Singer

Ashbeer Saini - Indian Golfer

Navdeep Saini - Indian Cricketer

Sumedh Singh Saini - Former Director general of police of Punjab, India

Manish Saini - Indian Filmmaker

Shiwani Saini - Indian actress

Pushpinder Saini - British Judge

Joginder Singh (soldier) - Paramvir Chakra awardee

Aman Saini - Indian Archer

Raj Saini - Indian Canadian Politician

Parminder Singh Saini - Indian Hijacker and Criminal

Angad Singh - Indian Politcian 103.49.116.253 (talk) 03:49, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

I will consider including these names after i get a source saying saini people also use Saini surname. Because, i believe, most of the articles you are suggesting is about Sainis of Punjab. At present sources are describing article as belonging to Sainis of Uttar Pradesh, Haryana and Rajasthan.

Admantine123 (talk) 04:09, 12 September 2023 (UTC)

Currently, I don't have source for surname of Sainis of Punjab but Saini surname is also used by some rajput clans in Jammu and Kashmir territory, I am attaching some sources.

The Sainis of J&K question their inclusion as SEBC, say they are Rajputs, landlords, entrepreneurs; “now fighting other upper castes over stigma”

[1]https://www.dailyexcelsior.com/saini-samaj-opposes-suggestions-to-enlist-community-as-backward-in-jk/ 103.49.116.253 (talk) 09:45, 13 September 2023 (UTC)

Others are:

• Flora Saini

Admantine123 (talk) 05:00, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

They are not Rajput clans, they claim to be so. Like Lodhis are not Rajputs, but they are known as Lodhi Rajputs. Admantine123 (talk) 09:05, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

You have Confused Sainis and Mali Saini's as same.They are Both totally different I Request you to remove all the Names of Saini's of Shoor Saini Lineage. All the Name that you added do not Belong to Mali Saini's Caste SikkaSingh (talk) 10:00, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

And Kindly undo the Edit on the Saini Page belonging to Shoorsaini Community I see you Have Deleted Lots of Information from that Page and Added Fake. I request you to Undo the Damage. Mali Saini and Saini/Shoorsaini are not the Same. SikkaSingh (talk) 12:29, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

What you are saying, i can sense is taken from various caste websites, which are not reliable on Wikipedia. Caste website will make high sounding claims like i can see on Indian Rajput.com. They claim Rohtas of Bihar to be a stronghold of Kachhwaha Rajput. But recent caste census proved that not a single Kachhwaha is found in Bihar. Also, Raj era sources were biased and unreliable. Modern news sources are more reliable than that. Third, its a surname article and surname doesn't verifies caste. Admantine123 (talk) 07:57, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

More to the list

@Admantine123 Here I am attaching some more entries from Haryana, Rajasthan and Uttar Pradesh.

Navdeep Saini - Indian Cricketer

Manish Saini - Indian Filmmaker

Gopal Saini - Indian Middle distance runner

Nitin Saini - Former Indian Cricketer

Prabhu Lal Saini - Indian Politician

Kajal Saini - Indian Sport Shooter

Harshit Saini - Indian Cricketer

Shanu Saini - Indian Cricketer

Chaudhari Nand Ram Saini - Zaildar of Hissar, Haryana Yatilib (talk) 04:30, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Extension of the list

Deep Saini - Canadian Scientist and Vice-chancellor of McGill University

Sanjay Saini - Radiologist at Harvard Medical School

Avtar Saini - Scientist

Angela Saini - British Science journalist

Raj Saini - Indian-Canadian Politician

Sumedh Singh Saini - Former Indian Police Chief of Punjab

Nirmal Saini - Indian Volleyball Player

Pritam Saini - Punjabi Journalist and History Scholar 103.49.116.253 (talk) 04:10, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Error in politicians list

Manzil Saini is included in politicians section whereas she is an Indian Police Service Officer. She must be added to a new sub heading as

"Police and Corps"

Sumedh Singh Saini - Former Director general of police of Punjab, India

Manzil Saini - Indian Police Service Officer

103.49.116.253 (talk) 04:20, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

You people can do it yourself, this article is not protected. It can be edited by anyone. Admantine123 (talk) 07:13, 28 September 2023 (UTC)

It is protected as I can check. 103.49.116.253 (talk) 04:14, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I can't see any protection. May be because you're using an ip to edit. You can make an account and edit as i don't know more people to add in it. Admantine123 (talk) 05:18, 4 October 2023 (UTC)

I request the Title be Changed from Saini to Mali Saini.

The Saini's of ShoorSaini lineage already have a Dedicated Page.And i Request you to Remove the Names of Saini's of Shoorsaini Lineage from this Page.Not to Be confused Mali Saini's and Saini's/Shoorsainis are Totally Different. More than Half of the Names here are from Shoorsaini lineage with no Conection to the Shoorsaini/Saini Caste. SikkaSingh (talk) 09:58, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

This is not the list of Notables. It is the list of people using Saini surname. Admantine123 (talk) 07:44, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Don't create confusion between the Two castes.If want to list them.Use a Different page for Mali Saini's. SikkaSingh (talk) 08:15, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

You can see it's a surname article and the intro section itself differentiate them. Saini is also a community of Punjab is one such statement. If they are different even then Saini of Punjab are Agricultural tribes like Jats, not Rajputs. Admantine123 (talk) 08:26, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Saini is a Farming caste short for Shoorsaini and Mali Saini is A Gardner Caste. The Mali itself means Gardner. Ancient Greek traveller and ambassador to India, Megasthenes, came across Saini clan in its glory days as the ruling tribe with its capital in Mathura. Megasthenes described this tribe as Sourasenoi and their patron deity and ancestor as Herakles: " Source:- Indica.

Malis adopted the Surname Saini in 1930s . SikkaSingh (talk) 08:34, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

Indica is not a modern source. And these all are claims. Every caste in India associate themselves with some ancient Dynasty or Deity. But claims are never truth. Admantine123 (talk) 11:58, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

And how are you Claims True?

How can you Decide a Whole Communities History on your Claims? Just Look into the Names man don't deny Facts. @c.fred

Mali means Gardener and Saini is Short for Shoorsaini.I can Provide you British Raj Documents Proving My Words. How are Your Sources Better than mine?

According to the census of 1881, 1901 & 1911, Sainis are found only in 4 states and 2 union territories. These 4 states and 2 union territories were known as 'Punjab Province' during British Raj.

4 states- Haryana, Himachal Pradesh, Jammu & Kashmir and Punjab.

2 Union territories- Chandigarh and Delhi (note: names are according to alphabetical order)

But due to various reasons the members of 'Mali' caste started using 'Saini' surname during British Raj to gain army jobs because army recruitment policies were strictly on the basis of caste during British Raj. Sainis were declared as a Martial Class by Britishers. Malis people took advantage of this and very cunningly renamed themselves as "Saini" to get jobs in army. But here in this article Mali and Saini are shown as same caste. This should not be. Malis and Sainis have different origin, history and religious beliefs. Historically, the main occupation of Malis is gardening and they have very less lands or they work in the fields of higher castes, but Sainis were historically warriors i.e., Sainis are Rajput descent and is land owning community of Punjab Province. There is no link between Malis and Sainis, both historically and in present.

Dont deny Facts correct all of the Damage you have done to Saini Communities Page.

You cant just deny facts by Saying Indica is Not Modern Source. Read Mahabharat for God Sake.Read about Shoorsaini Dynasty.

Undo the Damage you have done on Saini,Saini Surname, Mali Saini.

Respectfully. SikkaSingh (talk) 12:14, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

• Comment. This page is titled Saini (surname), which means it is for people who use the surname of Saini, regardless of caste or other origin. Other pages may be appropriate for the caste(s), but not this one. —C.Fred (talk) 12:40, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  You Right but it does not Give him the Right to Write about Mali Caste Specially connecting it To Saini Caste and then Mentioning People of Shoorsaini/Saini Caste.

  See for yourself

  He writes

  Saini is an Indian surname, used by various communities in North India. In Uttar Pradesh, it is used by people of Kushwaha or the Koeri caste. In Rajasthan and Haryana, it is most often associated with Mali caste. Saini is also a community of Punjab, included in state's list of Other Backward Class from 2016 onwards. In Haryana term Saini is considered synonymous with other terms such as Koeri, Kushwaha, Maurya and Shakya, all included in state's list of Backward Castes.

  See the number of time he mentions Kushwaha and Mali,Shoorsaini/Saini have don't live in Rajasthan Or UP. This is False information. Mali Sainis Live there.

  than. SikkaSingh (talk) 14:01, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  @SikkaSingh What does that have to do with this article? —C.Fred (talk) 16:37, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  Exactly.This is What I am asking you. Why is this Mentioned there if it's just about people who use the Saini Surname. SikkaSingh (talk) 16:40, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  Have you gone through other surname articles like Sharma, Mishra, Tiwari, Bajwa. All surname article of Indian origin starts with intro mentioning the caste that are associated with a particular surname. Have you gone through other surname articles or you are WP:SPA. Admantine123 (talk) 16:44, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  Yes they do all edited by you unfortunately.Anyways why are Mali Saini and Shoorsaini/Saini are mixed up by you. That is my Question. SikkaSingh (talk) 16:55, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  It's not me who wrote (the sources say so, also in Uttar Pradesh Saini surname is not used by Sikhs, you will find numerous sources for this). The intro of surname article can mention that it is used by which community. In Mali caste article too, there is a specific section which say they use this surname. Also, the news sources are clear that it is a surname of a particular community in Uttar Pradesh. Most of the surname articles are designed like that. See Singh. That also mentions various communities using that surname. Admantine123 (talk) 16:39, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  It clear that the People you mentioned in Saini Surname page were Sikhs. And please don't fool me Man.Before your edits this Page had Nothing in it.This Page was Redirected to Saini Page . Every Singh was added by you. Nobody else edited it. @C.Fred SikkaSingh (talk) 16:44, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  There is also a line in intro which says that Saini is also a community of Punjab. That is referring to those Sainis, whom you are representing here. I have tried to include every community that can be associated with this particular surname. It is nowhere written that the people are Malis or other caste. This is how every surname article of Indian origin are existing on Wikipedia. Thats the closing statement from my side. Admantine123 (talk) 16:48, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  @SikkaSingh There is a separate List of Saini people for caste members. This article is for people with the surname. I don't see any evidence that this title redirected to Saini. —C.Fred (talk) 16:48, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  What?? Man I just Mentioned the Page I was Talking about Saini surname. The page you mentioned contains people of Saini Caste of Punjab only. SikkaSingh (talk) 16:59, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  @SikkaSingh Please provide the diff where this title existed as a redirect, because I don't see it. —C.Fred (talk) 17:01, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  Look into the First edit of the Page SikkaSingh (talk) 17:03, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  The Edit history is just 2 pages long SikkaSingh (talk) 17:04, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  @SikkaSingh Which, as I said, is where the pre-existing list was moved to List of Saini people. —C.Fred (talk) 17:34, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  Ok but what I Also said he Mixed up Mali Sainis and Shoorsaini/Saini.In Saini Surname Page and He has Listed Most of the People of Shoorsaini/Saini lineage. Both are Different.And the Fact that the Page was Previously Redirected to Saini which was No Problem until he Added The Fake Intro and He also mixed up both Communities Notable People because this is the List of People using the Surname. As you Said. SikkaSingh (talk) 20:02, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  @SikkaSingh Why does it matter which lineage they are of if they have the surname Saini? —C.Fred (talk) 20:35, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  You say English is you Native Language but you didn't understand that I talked about how the Intro mixes both Castes and shows them as one. Look at his Sources he added article about Mali Sainis.The Majority Saini in Haryana are ShoorSaini. Both communities knows that they have different origins but 3rd Party comes and Claims that they are the Same without Credible Proof. Saini's/Shoorsaini have had Kingdoms Mali Saini's haven't. Infact they Adopted the Name Way After that. If you don't want to consider the Official Community websites of Both Castes. At least Do your own Research watch some Credible News Channels or Something. SikkaSingh (talk) 06:53, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  I request you to not mix the mythology and history. Sikh Saini may have played great role in Indian independence and during Sikh rule in Punjab. But association with Shoorsaini kingdom and Porus is myth, not reality. Pasis also claim that they have ruled many places in Lucknow under a king called Lakhan Pasi. Similarly Rajbhar community claim Suhaldeo to be their ancestor. There is no credible historical proof of these claims. Admantine123 (talk) 07:26, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  The Myths as you say some part of them can be Myths but never Entirely. You cannot call them all Myths until you Prove they are myths. With Credible Proof. And the Genetics say Otherwise. They are the Modern proof. There are many Ancestry websites that Examine DNA and will disagree with what you say. SikkaSingh (talk) 10:37, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  What you are not getting is that intro of this article specifically says that there is also a community called Saini in Punjab. It indicates towards those Sainis whom you are referring as Shoorsaini. Mali Saini and Soorsaini both use Saini surname and both can be included here as it is a surname article. Let me give an example, Verma surname is used by Kayastha, Kurmi and Koeri castes. So in surname article of Verma, you will find many people who are from these Castes. Apart from that, if anyone from a different caste uses that surname,then they can also be included in Verma surname article. For that purpose only we have included a "disclaimer" message at the top of list of Notables that the use of this surname and people listed here may not be associated with particular castes using this surname. In Verma surname article you will find that most of the people in list are Kayasthas, but some like Chandradeo Prasad Verma aren't. There is no mixing. You can add Notable Shoorsaini (as per your claim) on List of Sainis, if you have source. Admantine123 (talk) 05:30, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  I am Talking about the Intro. Man stop Stalling. I already explained to you that the Intro is the Problem.If you say this is the List of People Using Saini Surname. But in the Intro you have Talked Specially about the Mali Saini Caste. And Most of the People in the List have no link to that Caste. How is That Fair??

  You have been doing This Saini Related Edits Since 2020 .I know you will Not Just Revert the Changes you Made. But I Ask you Why Add Fake Perspectives with the Help of Non-Relative Sources .You are Just trying to Take advantage of the Fact that Both castes have the Same Surname.Stop Stalling.

  Revert the Pages to how they were Formerly.Saini,Saini Surname,Mali Saini You can't just change History just because you Don't Like it. Why Vandalize Some Communities Heritage? SikkaSingh (talk) 10:47, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  This section started with a request to change the title of the article. Since you're now saying the title is fine but the problem is with the intro, the clearest way forward is for to have a separate section for discussion on the intro. —C.Fred (talk) 11:02, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  For Sikh Sainis of Punjab there is a list article seperately. List of Saini people. But expanding this list is tough as you need self identification of the personality to add in this list. For surname list there is no such barrier. Admantine123 (talk) 16:50, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  Also in surname article, we have included a disclaimer that association with this surname doesn't mean association with any caste. You can see there above the list of Notables. Standard format of surname articles should mention that it is basically associated with which communities. As, i have gone through hundreds of surname articles on Wikipedia and every article, if they are of Indian origin surname, mentions the communities in lede. Admantine123 (talk) 16:55, 18 October 2023 (UTC)

  Yes but what about the Intro? You didn't Differentiate in both of them. Did you? No you didn't. SikkaSingh (talk) 07:01, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

  That line, "Saini is also a community of Punjab" is referring to those Sikh Sainis who are not gardeners but agriculturists. Actually i didn't find modern source which specifically differentiate Saini and Mali. I can write whatever the source say. For other sentences in intro Modern news sources are there. You also know that In many parts of Haryana and Rajasthan Mali are called Saini and in present political context due to caste based politics lots of source are available which say that Mali are called Saini but no source is available which say something about Sikh Sainis. I will reiterate, if you go through all surname lists you will find members of many communities listed there. There is no mix up. And i am not trying to link your community, the sikh Sainis with Malis. This confusion exists as both call themselves Saini. Mali don't call them as Mali Saini and sources also don't say this. Admantine123 (talk) 07:22, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

Discussion: Text of the intro

Here is the intro to the article as it stands as I write this:

Saini is an Indian surname, used by various communities in North India. In Uttar Pradesh, it is used by people of Kushwaha or the Koeri caste. In Rajasthan and Haryana, it is most often associated with Mali caste. Saini is also a community of Punjab, included in state's list of Other Backward Class from 2016 onwards. In Haryana term Saini is considered synonymous with other terms such as Koeri, Kushwaha, Maurya and Shakya, all included in state's list of Backward Castes.

References

Since SikkaSingh, in particular, has concerns about the text of the intro, I invite any user with a concern about the intro to identify specifically which lines of the intro they'd like changed or deleted and which specific reliable sources support the changes, especially since every line of the intro appears to be supported with one or more sources currently. —C.Fred (talk) 11:05, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

I say all the Sources As You Say Reliable Sources are About Mali Saini Caste. None of them is Referred to Saini's of Punjab or Jammu except the The Source on number 7.Which Just says that Saini, Swarnkar/Sunar communities to be backward classes in Punjab

How does this Support that they are Mali Saini's? Not all the Articles Call Mali Saini - Sainis. Only when the Article is About Both the Castes. Not if the Article is about a Specific Caste.None of the Sources are Reliable.None of them Say that Mali Saini and Shoorsaini are the Same. SikkaSingh (talk) 11:14, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

@SikkaSingh So you concede that all sources support the use of the surname Saini by these groups? —C.Fred (talk) 11:21, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

The one source which is a good news source (Indian express is listed as good source on Wikipedia Reliable Source/Perennial Source), is about Sainis of Punjab too. You are claiming them to be Rajputs but they are also included in Other Backward Class group which is a category consisting Indian castes that are socially and educationally disadvantaged and have been provided reservation in government jobs. Rajputs are mostly Forward Castes in north India and even Haryana government website shows that Sainis there are included in Backward Caste list. The Rajput connection is totally rubbish, as Sainis of Punjab were also agriculturists. There is no source at present which specifically distinguish Saini and Mali. If I had one, i would have distinguished them in lede. This Rajput connection is the brainchild of some of the caste websites and organisations, who are doing so for social recognition. Even if different both groups are agriculturists and in Other Backward Class list. Your Shoorsaini are also in Backward Class list. That Indian express source about Sainis of Punjab (Your's Sainis) also say so. Admantine123 (talk) 11:59, 19 October 2023 (UTC)

No, that's just Rubish. Did you even know that Sainis of Punjab were Categorized as Obc until 2016.

We are Categorized Obc because we are Minority.

https://www.bhaskar.com/local/haryana/news/haryana-kurukshetra-bjp-mp-nayab-saini-rajasthan-obc-morcha-state-incharge-panipat-mayor-avneet-kaur-punjab-co-incharge-order-131914002.html

https://www.bhaskar.com/local/haryana/news/haryana-kurukshetra-bjp-mp-nayab-saini-rajasthan-obc-morcha-state-incharge-panipat-mayor-avneet-kaur-punjab-co-incharge-order-131914002.html

Mali Saini Protesting for Reservation Benefits

https://www.livehindustan.com/rajasthan/story-saini-aarakshan-sangharsh-samiti-will-hold-talks-with-obc-commission-today-8110210.html

I see Jat and Yadav their too. Are the Backward Caste. You tell me?

https://thewire.in/government/panel-for-obc-sub-categorisation-gets-its-14th-extension

Is this not written in this article? We're do you See Anybody From Punjab Or Jammu these are clearly Mali Sainis

Mali, Kushwah, Kaachi, Morya and Saini castes are part of the OBC community, which also include Jats, Yadavs and Charans

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/jaipur/obc-communities-demand-12-quota-in-rajasthan-block-jaipur-agra-nh/articleshow/99678578.cms

Here is a Source from the Tribune

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/features/consider-saini-caste-in-obc-category-cat-tells-ut-admn-150274

Sikh Rajput,Nais (with Sub-Caste 'Kuleen Brahman'), Rai Sikhs, Jhangra Brahman, Mehra Rajputs, Soni Rajputs, Ramgarhia, Tarkhan & Dhiman, Swarankar/Suniar, Yadav/Ahir, Gosai & Goswami, all of these Castes are OBC in Punjab does that make all of them Non-Rajputs??

SAINI'S we're Categorized in OBC in

12-9-2016

If you are Still Ignoring Every Evidence. Why the Hate?

Here are Some Video Sources

 https://youtube/tZ2aiujV_-0?si=APk7Nb3GB7luNqV1

https://www.youtube.com/live/a2EGHQ8c8u4?si=ZzT891YoLw0LYsHl

https://youtube/06llg5qliCw?si=kWf11E0aIKOwmT36

https://youtube/tl2OOH7YlQQ?si=oRBEwqeOP8saeb-N



@C.Fred

@Sitush

I think the Provided Source is Reliable Enough.Right? SikkaSingh (talk) 03:56, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@SikkaSingh OBC status has nothing to do with, well, anything that matters here. It is ambiguous, can vary geographically, is politicised, has seen well in excess of 1500 reclassifications since its introduction, and so on. It is hopeless for anything on Wikipedia other than (sometimes) a statement of bare "fact" ie a community which probably is the same as Y is or was OBC-classified on X date. It most definitely cannot be used to infer any other information - see WP:SYNTHESIS. - Sitush (talk) 04:05, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

This was an Answer to @Admantine123 question. He stated that Rajputs are All Categorized in General Category. I also Provided Sources stating Sainis were Categorized Obc in 2016 in Punjab and Jammu etc.Which is Evidence that they were Not Listed OBC because they were Not Linked to Rajputs as @Admantine123 and You Say. Am I still Wrong? SikkaSingh (talk) 04:23, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@SikkaSingh you pinged me. Whether all Rajputs are in the General category or if Sainis have been listed as OBC in this, that or another state, the two are unconnected statements for the purposes of Wikipedia- we can't synthesise and we should not infer something (there is no General Category list anyway). And, as I suggested, the official classifications for affirmative action are notoriously unstable, inconsistent & whimsical anyway.

I think you are relying on synthesis in a big way and it isn't an argument you'll "win" by doing so. - Sitush (talk) 04:38, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

FWIW, Adamantine is synthesising in their remarks above, too. It's a waste of everyone's time to do this because it won't change what the article says. - Sitush (talk) 04:44, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I just wanted to explain them that their claim of Sainis being a Rajput sub caste is rubbish. The lede is written by me and there i have written what the available sources say. Admantine123 (talk) 04:47, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 One solution just for this article is simply to bin the lead section. The article isn't about the caste(s), so a simple disambiguation note would suffice here. If Saini has any etymological significance then we can use whatever is said in the Oxford Dictionaries of family names, which I can access via the Wikipedia Library. - Sitush (talk) 04:54, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I did this because I saw every Hindu caste article to be written like this. Sharma, Mishra, Tiwari, Chaturvedi etc claim these surnames to be a brahmin surname. This is true, and one thing is also true that non-Brahmins may also use this surname. Giving some background and disclaimer that listed name may or may not belong to community was the good way forward as if a large majority of people of particular caste uses that surname, it should be highlighted too. Admantine123 (talk) 04:58, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

If we are going to do this then we have to remove the mention of caste from all such articles. As per my opinion we should give time to SikkaSingh to find sources that specifically say that Mali are not called Sainis and what they are saying here again and again. Admantine123 (talk) 05:01, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 Local consensus is fine. - Sitush (talk) 05:02, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Indian (Punjab, Haryana, Uttar Pradesh): Arora and Sikh name from ancient kingdom of Soursena, now identified with central India. Comes from (2022-08-29). Saini. In Hanks, P., Lenarčič, S., & McClure, P. (Eds.), Dictionary of American Family Names. : Oxford University Press. Retrieved 20 Oct. 2023, from https://www-oxfordreference-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/view/10.1093/acref/9780190245115.001.0001/acref-9780190245115-e-64620. - Sitush (talk) 05:01, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Since you are well aware with this. Include this source in the way you think appropriate to calm down SikkaSingh and others who may raise questions like this in future. This should be done without rejecting the present sources which specifically say that in Uttar Pradesh XYZ community uses this surname. As, a large number of Member of Indian Parliament and Uttar Pradesh Legislative Assembly also Haryana leaders, who use this surname are not Sikh Sainis, whom SikkaSingh is representing here. Admantine123 (talk) 05:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 Why does location matter? And I find it hard to believe that 100% of a community bear the same name, just as I find it hard to believe that all members of a caste are Hindu or Muslim or whatever (there are always converts, atheists, agnostics etc). But I will look at your source. - Sitush (talk) 05:16, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

The current lead statement seems weird to me. I knew someone called Saini when at university (Cambridge, UK) and he was born & bred in Sunderland, not Haryana. The dictionary I quoted above reckons there were 3500 in the US at whatever time they did the survey ... and so on. - Sitush (talk) 05:23, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I usually edit politics related articles. In Uttar Pradesh, many legislators and parliamentarians using this surname are not Sikh Sainis. They belong to an umbrella caste group which contain agriculturists and gardeners. Uttar Pradesh is known for its caste based politics and this community was mobilised by Bharatiya Janata Party in 2017 Assembly elections. From there, i came to know that there is a brawl between Sainis of Punjab and those of Uttar Pradesh and Haryana over the usage of this surname. Unfortunately I didnt find source that say that "Sikh Sainis of Punjab also use this surname". You may find my comment at the top of this talk page on this. If the dictionary source is to be retained solely, it will direct the readers to believe that this is a surname of a minority Sikh group and they will confuse those of Uttar Pradesh to be one among them. Admantine123 (talk) 05:29, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 It won't confuse the reader. I suspect you're not seeing the wood for the trees - the politics don't matter for this article, regardless of how caste-based they are in UP (and Bihar, Tamil Badu etc). - Sitush (talk) 05:32, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

If you insist, we could omit caste from the definition. The bit which matters is the etymology stemming from the ancient kingdom/area. - Sitush (talk) 05:35, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

So what do you suggest ? What should be the intro? Admantine123 (talk) 05:35, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Admantine123 Dabhat to the caste article, then Saini is a name whose etymology connects to the ancient kingdom of Surasena in present-day India. Cite that, then list of names. That's how most Western surname articles would appear. - Sitush (talk) 06:02, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

First of all, I've been following this discussion for a long time, and I respect everyone's opinions. But I think why delete someone's personal opinion when it is verifiable? Somewhere it seems like 'Conflicts of Interest'. @SikkaSingh is not providing a reliable source to verify his claim and no sources are there which debunk current sources in lead. Also on Google search i found numerous sources which verifies what is written in lead. So why should we listen to someone who is just claiming something, considering the fact that most surname of Indian origin article give a brief intro of community using that surname. We shouldn't follow different approaches for different pages. Thanks you with Regards! Mr Goldberg 07:45, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Mrjoegoldberg The issue won't go away. As I said in another recent thread where Adamantine & Sikka were debating pretty much the same point, this issue has come up repeatedly in the > 15 years I have been editing Saini caste articles here - it is a constant bone of contention & a timesink. It is already routinely accepted on caste articles that last name isn't verification of someone's caste; there certainly are plenty of Indian name articles which don't make a caste connection; and I actually think the current lead here is wrong as phrased and being insisted on for an ulterior purpose (I don't think the insistence is nefarious but the effect is one of coatracking). - Sitush (talk) 09:48, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Mr Joe Goldberg I know that his Sources are Misleading that is what i am Trying to Tell. Both castes are Saini Mali Saini/Shoorsaini. It is Obvious that anyone can Get confused. I have Seen Admantine123 Sources and I can tell you they Prove Nothing I know I am not able to Provide many Modern Credible Sources but I Can tell you His Provided Sources are also not Credible to Prove Otherwise. The Articles you or anyone here assumes credible are About Mali Saini. They obviously are not Going to Specially going to Call themself Mali Saini specially when the Specific article is just about Them. Right. You can Differentiate Between them by the Geography. The Places those articles are About as you can See most of them are about Rajasthan which is the Place of Majority Mali Sainis, and Haryana That is Half of Both. And the one Article about Punjab states that how Saini and Suniyar Caste was Categorized OBC in 2016 which again doesn't prove anything.I have no intention to Accuse anyone but when I provide like from Community websites they are Considered Unreliable on the Other hand Admantine123 used Two of those same Links on Saini page. Do you think I am the one wrong here? SikkaSingh (talk) 09:48, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@Mrjoegoldberg Oh, and I have an uneasy feeling that Sikka is being asked to prove a negative here, which is always tricky. At least on this article, we have the potential to stop the 15+ year discussion dead in its tracks before I die myself! Caste stuff on Wikipedia is soul-destroying to edit because so much of it goes round in circles & there are so many disruptive editors & their socks/meats, so why create an avoidable problem? - Sitush (talk) 09:53, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

They maybe Agriculturists by Profession but not By caste Mali means Gardners also The Different Opinion is Not Just Between UP Mali Saini and Punjabi Sainis. Its Between Rajasthan, UP, Haryana, Vs Punjab, Again Haryana, Jammu Kashmir,Himachal pardesh And Some other minor parts of North India. SikkaSingh (talk) 10:27, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@SikkaSingh Irrelevant. The days are long gone when someone's caste automatically determined their occupation. - Sitush (talk) 10:32, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Yes you are right but I just wanted to Describe How they are Known to Regular People.Mali in Hindi Means Gardener. For Example Rajput Means Son of King. Or Jat means Peasants, or Brahman Means a

person associated with Brahma a Hindu Deity. SikkaSingh (talk) 10:53, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

Were you not saying that Sainis had no Connection with Shoorsaini and I was just Claiming that? SikkaSingh (talk) 10:35, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

@SikkaSingh I said nothing of the sort. - Sitush (talk) 10:47, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I am Sorry 😅 I didn't mean to Comment this Here My mistake SikkaSingh (talk) 10:57, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

10:32, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

I am sorry for the Misunderstanding. I Pinged you to see the Conversation. I will keep bring Proof if I Know I am Right. SikkaSingh (talk) 09:32, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

• If Sitush alters the lead, i won't revert. But, it is difficult for me to agree with someone, who is not able to back his claims with reliable source. Why should we remove cited material, for which lot of sources are available on the basis of personal beliefs of WP:SPA. Most of the caste and surname related pages are filled with such users claiming different things and no serious editor has ever taken cognizance of their comments, so why be selective here. Anyone can make caste website and blog and claim anything, however they'll fail when it comes to verifiablity. I can't support changing something due to opposition of someone until they provide source to verify it.-Admantine123 (talk) 08:08, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Since SikkaSingh has confused senior editors and admins through his argument and Sitush is also getting closer towards the belief that he is promoting here. I would like to give a hint, which is not related to this surname article but can be useful in future for patrolling these pages. This attempt is similar to this. People associated with some caste groups which are very active on social media and encyclopaedias are hell bent on prooving some Other Backward Class communities, which have excelled in all walks of life to be a member of their own caste by creating fringe historical theories. PS: The caste of Ashok Gehlot was not added by me, but by NitinMlk. I'm leaving the case to Sitush as he is able to decide what's good. That's my closing comment to this thread. I don't want to be tagged here anymore. Thanks. Admantine123 (talk) 08:29, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  I don't want any feud with you.Neither do I Hate any Caste. I can't let a Third person Twist and write A Heritage by how it pleases his/her motives. I can't let that Happen. I don't know whats your Motive. I don't want to Offend anyone.

  You are the One who made that edit.So I am Sorry but You are Going to Tagged.If you don't want to answer that's your Choice. Thanks. SikkaSingh (talk) 09:54, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Every source I provide you Claim Unreliable.Many of them From the Same websites you used to Backup Your Resources. I sure am new to Wikipedia but I assure you I know what I am taking about. SikkaSingh (talk) 09:57, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  @SikkaSingh The issue with sources is largely that the you confuse your "truth" with Wikipedia's numerous policies & guidelines relating to what does or doesn't enable "verifiability", and verifiability is not truth. That is certainly in part because of inexperience but it isn't a card which you can keep on playing. - Sitush (talk) 10:05, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Ok i believe you if you say the Sources are not verifiable. But So are the Sources of Admantine. SikkaSingh (talk) 10:56, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Admantine123 It isn't a great argument to make but I'll say it anyway: I'm probably the Wikipedian with the most experience of editing caste articles & dealing with the daily arguments etc. I don't routinely bow to arguments without evidence, nor to "caste warriors" etc, so it might be significant that on this occasion I think we're just making trouble for ourselves. - Sitush (talk) 10:00, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Last point, as an example. The lead currently says that the name is used in UP by X and Y caste. I'm sorry but it is just ridiculously implausible that not a single other person uses the name, regardless of sourcing, and indeed the inability always to ascribe a name to a caste is precisely why we have consensus that last name ISN'T verification of caste. - Sitush (talk) 10:12, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Sitush, lets go with what you want to write in lead. As this is a surname article. I will use the sources from this article in respective caste articles to show that the respective communities use this surname. Admantine123 (talk) 10:36, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Admantine123 I suggest that you don't use them elsewhere without prior discussion. As I've just said, for example, it's not a great idea to use news sources for this. - Sitush (talk) 10:49, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Okay as you wish. Admantine123 (talk) 10:53, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Sitush, in fact I have books too to support all this. Thanks to caste based politics in India. Admantine123 (talk) 11:03, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  So do I.

  https://books.google.com/books/about/Census_of_India_1961.html?id=ZcnUAAAAMAAJ#saini%20caste

  https://books.google.com/books/about/Communities_Segments_Synonyms_Surnames_a.html?id=bfAMAQAAMAAJ#v=onepage&q=shoorsaini&f=false

  https://books.google.com/books/about/PORUS_THE_KING_WHO_DEFEATED_ALEXANDER.html?id=rrXGEAAAQBAJ#v=onepage&q=shoorsaini&f=false

  https://books.google.com/books/about/Human_Rights_Among_Indian_Populations.html?id=vsBTFEC_mdkC#v=onepage&q=shoorsaini&f=false

  https://books.google.com/books/about/India_s_Communities.html?id=jHQMAQAAMAAJ#shoorsaini SikkaSingh (talk) 11:12, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  SikkaSingh, Try using these sources. It will be reverted outrightly by someone. I don't need to explain you why. There is difference between what you assume the meaning of books and what I have learnt till now.- Admantine123 (talk) 11:38, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Man why do you Keep Denying.Every Argument with you feels like Waste of Time. Don't do That man Keep an Open Mind. SikkaSingh (talk) 13:03, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Admantine123 At least one of those sources is reliable, although I cannot see the content - the Communities, Segments one is fine & published by the Oxford University Press. It would trump pretty much any opinion in a news outlet. - Sitush (talk) 13:06, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  If you search on Google "Shoorsaini" And Go to the Books Tile you can see those Books and If you click on Any one of the Trusted Sources you will be Redirected to the Exact Page of the Source. Most of it you Already knew but anyway hope that helps SikkaSingh (talk) 13:11, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  @SikkaSingh Google Books doesn't display the same content all round the world. See WP:GBOOKS. As an aside, we really shouldn't use any book where Google shows only a "snippet" view. If you can't see the entire page, plus the one before & after it, then it is quite likely you will be cherry-picking & missing the context of the statement you want to use. - Sitush (talk) 13:17, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  I was trying to make it easier to Surf the Book . I read the Entire Topic. Not The Whole book Obviously. But I read the Statement. It just Send you to the Exact Page. It doesn't show Just The Snippet sorry for the Misunderstanding SikkaSingh (talk) 13:27, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Admantine123 Then use them. - Sitush (talk) 13:07, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Well, not the last: Indian news sources are a terrible idea for use in regard to anything anthropological etc. They're lazy research & usually poorly written if in English. - Sitush (talk) 10:37, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  If it is used to proove discussion regarding Varna and the history of castes then you are right. But merely for supporting a statement that a particular surname is used by some particular caste this isn't always the case. Though I agree that many other communities may also use that surname. There is also a problem that most of the caste articles can't be expanded if we are looking for very high quality sources. You are aware of this thing as you are editing a large number of caste articles right now and you may have observed that most of them were expanded using people of India. Believe me, it will be nearly impossible to find the level of sources you are expecting for those articles as studies on such minor caste groups have not been done precisely. I can see after removing the unreliable people of india source, most of them are without any source. It will remain like that for decades as writers have always been interested in writing about some major caste groups and leaving others to perish. No one gonna expand them as they won't find source. We should consider using newspapers which are considered a reliable (if not a best source) in such caste articles. This is because it is during elections that journalist study the distribution of some minor castes and write something about them by visiting their place, otherwise they remain uncovered largely by authors. Admantine123 (talk) 10:48, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Admantine123 We don't want to expand articles if the sources are poor. You're putting the cart before the horse. Better no article at all than a misleading one or one which results from lowering our standards. And, contrary to what you seem to think, most Indian news is rehashed press wire releases & pinching off competitors, not journalists from each outlet visiting the scene. India has an awful international reputation for press freedom & journalistic standards. - Sitush (talk) 10:55, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Will, I'll try to follow this as far as possible. However, some of the newspapers like Indian express and The Hindu have a reputation of unbiased scholarly research. I am aware of india's rank in press freedom index, though I believe that it is because of digital media and channels like Republic TV and Zee News. Admantine123 (talk) 10:58, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Admantine123 No Indian newspaper has a decent reputation for scholarly research, and Indian Express just looks better than it is because the competition is so poor. That & The Hindu are OK for news facts - dates, events, quotes - but not for Anthropology or other academic stuff, where (for example) they often regurgitate what they are fed by castes & their associations. - Sitush (talk) 13:01, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Are Religious Books like Mahabharata Reliable? Or the Famous Educational Websites With Articles about The Caste/Tribe

  https://unacademy.com/content/upsc/study-material/ancient-history/surasena/#:~:text=Sourasenoi%20is%20an%20Indian%20tribe,as%20a%20continuation%20of%20Saracen.

  Like this one Maybe? SikkaSingh (talk) 11:04, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  @SikkaSingh No. See WP:PRIMARY, WP:SPS and a bunch of stuff at WP:RS. - Sitush (talk) 12:57, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Ok. Thanks. SikkaSingh (talk) 13:05, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Sitush, i will also like to draw your attention on various Brahmin surname articles like Sharma, Mishra, Tiwari and Jat Surname articles like Brar, Ahlawat and others. I provided source here, but on those articles source dont even support that they are particularly Brahmin or Jat surname. Then also they have been retained for years. If we have to follow it then it should be equally applicable to all indian Surname page. I tried to rectify some of those pages but often reverted by many editors who are editing those respective pages only. Admantine123 (talk) 11:14, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  @Admantine123 Irrelevant. This talk page concerns this article. - Sitush (talk) 12:58, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

  Vanamonde93, Abecedare, RegentsPark could use some input from you in this lengthy thread, if you have time. C Fred probably has the admin stuff nailed down but as experienced editors + admins you might have thoughts on how we proceed. - Sitush (talk) 13:24, 20 October 2023 (UTC)

• I confess I'm a little lost as to what pieces of the dispute remain. My general take would be that surnames may have association with specific endogamous groups, but are extremely unlikely to be restricted only to those groups. If a news source documents such a connection I think it's okay to use for something like "Saini is used as a surname by group X", but any more authoritative pronouncements need better sources, and in general we should not imply that a name is used only by a specific group unless we have multiple scholarly sources backing it up. Vanamonde (Talk) 15:49, 20 October 2023 (UTC)