Talk:Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day/Archive 1

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Old discussion[edit]

I am trying to get information about this holiday. I have read about a feast. What is eaten at such a feast? Alby

  • Heh heh heh, at the feast that I know of we only drink beer, a lot of it. Red Star
  • Haha, this article is a bit lacking on what REALLY happens on St. Jean Baptiste, after having speat my summer in Montreal, everyone essentially gets the day off to drink, and in Copious amounts, in the parks, in the streets, and in their homes, it's a great holiday, much better than Canada day.
  • BEER. The Saint-Jean is a celebration of beer. And stuff. Mostly beer. But stuff too!

July 1st renewal of rental agreements in Québec[edit]

From the article: There is also a law in Quebec which stipulates that July 1st is the day for yearly renewal of property rental agreements. Really? I don't see any mention of july first in the Code civil du québec (See articles 1941 to 1946 which deal with renewal). Am I missing something?

You are correct. The current civil code no longer prescribes any particular period of the year for the renewal. Read this for a possible explanation :

Reject the Koolaid Blog Link[edit]

Reject the Koolaid Blog celebrates the fete today with a short tribute as a link to this is irrelevant, unencylopedic and is simply an attempt to a) get people to go to the blog in question or b) encourage negative feelings towards French Quebecers because of her negative experience as an Anglo-Quebecer on the Saint-Jean-Baptiste. It has been removed a few times I believe but Tearfree keeps putting it back in. - TheJF

I do not consider my experience as an Anglo Quebecer negative at all. I love Quebec. That's why I live here. This is a humour piece about Quebec and, as such, is perfectly appropriate for today and the next few days. After that, I agree with you that it becomes irrelevant. Why don't you just add your comments instead of constantly removing this piece? Tearfree

Okay everybody, take it easy.[edit]

I humbly recommend that everyone take a break from the reverting. I already see one breach of the 3 revert rule here, but have no intention of reporting it as long as the reverting stops. I recommend that the people involved in the brewing edit war take a break from editing this article for a while and let other people sort it out. - Che Nuevara: Join the Revolution 00:58, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I can live with that evenif I never thought of Che as being one to compromise. Tearfree

Thank you, Tearfree. I have no knowledge of the subject, so I'm not here to sort out the factual confusion -- I just don't want to see anyone get blocked.
By the way, it's a great help to everyone if you sign your posts with a link to your userpage and the datestamp. All you have to do is type ~~~~ at the end of your message, and the wikicode takes care of the rest. - Che Nuevara: Join the Revolution 01:18, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Copying what I said on Che Nuevara's talk page, I would like to point out the problem with Tearfree's external link to her blog: Wikipedia:External_links, Links to normally avoid, Line 12: Blogs, social networking sites (such as MySpace) and forums should generally not be linked to. Although there are exceptions, such as when the article is about, or closely related to, the website itself, or if the website is of particularly high standard.
Tearfree's blog entry is a personal story, so I don't think it qualifies as an exception, hence it should be removed. I also think it fuels the stereotype of Quebecers as rude and racist (where the guy says "get out of my country"). I don't dispute that it did happen to her, but I can't help but feel linking to such a personal story in an entry on the Saint-Jean-Baptiste gives that impression.
Note that this has been edited before by Mathieugp, although I am sure he had some bias in there because his profile declares him to be a Quebec sovereigntists.
Disclaimer: I am not a Quebecer, I'm Acadian. TheJF 01:26, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Even federalists are nationalists. They just think that being in Canad serve us beter. And nobody like to see his people branded as 'x'.

Nationalist Bias[edit]

Referring to la Fete nationale as Quebec's "national" holiday implies that Quebec is a nation (this is impossible, it is a province in Canada), and runs afoul of NPOV standards here on wikipedia. I believe it should be referred to indirectly as a holiday of the province of Quebec, not as Quebec's national holiday. Obviously its proper name should remain the same, but in the editoral context here on Wikipedia, it should be referred to with the former and not the latter title. In the meantime, I've put "quotations" around the word national when used in the wikipedia 'this is a fact' context in the article. 66.130.181.233 21:30, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Quebec can be considered a nation even if it is not a sovereign one, and even if there was not a movement for it to be an independent nation.

Dictionary. 1. 3. A people who share common customs, origins, history, and frequently language; a nationality: “Historically the Ukrainians are an ancient nation which has persisted and survived through terrible calamity” (Robert Conquest).

To use the Dictionary example, Ukraine could still be referred to as a nation even during the USSR. The holiday is considered a National Holiday by the government, and thus, it should be referred as so.
It is good to note that although I am Quebecois, I am not supportive of the nationalist movement. --A Sunshade Lust 22:24, 25 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps it could be considered a nation, but my point is that this is not for us to decide nor proclaim. 66.130.181.233 05:03, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is not for us to decide whether Quebec is a nation or not, but it is a fact that A) it is called La fête nationale du Québec which translates to "Quebec National holiday" B) that is what the governement of Quebec calls it too even under a federalist Premier (see http://www.cnt.gouv.qc.ca/en/normes/fete_nationale.asp) C) if we are to question whether Quebec is a nation, we should also question whether Canada is one which we don't. (That is called being neutral). D) one does not need to be nationalist to recognize Quebec as a nation, one only needs to know the meaning of the word nation. Nation can be synonymous with sovereign state but that is not the only meaning of the word an certainly not the first. -- Mathieugp 05:21, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
A is not in dispute. B is irrelevant, it doesn't matter who calls it what, only that we cannot proclaim it to be something it is not generally accepted to be. Quebec may claim to be a nation, but the rest of Canada does not necessarily think so. Again, it's not for us to decide. C is gratuitous and irrelevant; Canada is recognized as a nation in the broader international context and there is no real debate on the issue. D may perhaps be true, but again, this is a controversial issue and we should not be taking sides.
To affirm the positive and describe Quebec as a nation is to take a side. To affirm the negative and describe it as 'not a nation' is to take a side. To simply state that Quebec has claimed itself to be a nation and that this fact is in dispute is the proper NPOV we should be taking. In all places in the article, the word 'nation' when mentioned in the wikipedia editorial voice should maintain this NPOV no matter what. 66.130.181.233 15:49, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]
What specific sentence(s) do you have a problem with? Maybe this would help me understand your thinking.
So far, I think that doing what you suggested would be pushing the NPOV policy to an extreme. Following your reasoning, most Wikipedia articles dealing with science would currently be written in a NPOV manner, and should be fixed because they say something contrary to some Christian fundamentalist beliefs. The NPOV policy is not there to go around the main purpose of an encyclopedia: to inform with facts.
It can be demonstrated easily that Quebec fits the description of a nation, unless we are using the word as a synonym for "independent state". If this article asserted that Quebec was a "sovereign nation" or an "independent state" or whatever, it would simply be untrue and would be removed in 10 sec., but I see no such claim in this article. At the present, Canada does not recognize Quebec as a nation officially for reasons that are primarily political. The main reason why the federal government does not affirm that Quebec is "not a nation" is also political.
Ultimately, to block "any description of Quebec as a nation" because the federal state of Canada has not yet taken a side on this is censorship. The federal state of Canada's opinion on Quebec does not allow us to claim, as you claimed, that Quebec is not "generally" accepted to be a nation.
I understand that it is your perception that Quebec is not generally accepted to be a nation. From where I come from, Quebec, Quebec is generally accepted to be a nation that is not sovereign and not recognized by Ottawa. Also, both our individual perceptions cannot allow us to know what is "generally" accepted to be or not. It depends in which social milieu you evolve in.
If I entered a room full of random people gave them a description of the word nation, a description of Quebec, how many people would assert that Quebec is not a non-sovereign nation? Following such an experient, we could maybe talk about what people generally think. Quebec compares to other non-sovereign nations like Scotland or Catalonia and one would have to deny much evidence to claim the opposite. -- Mathieugp 21:23, 26 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]


Quebec is considered to be a nation. When you arrive in Quebec City, roadsigns welcome you to the "Capitale nationale".

Well then, it must be a nation. It says so on the road sign. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 164.73.81.24 (talk) 12:40, 27 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Title[edit]

Can anyone explain why this is at Fete nationale du Quebec, rather than St Jean Baptiste Day? It's la Saint-Jean in Quebec more commonly than Fete nationale, and for english-speakers it's Saint Jean Baptiste Day. Why privilege a political rebranding of the holiday which hasn't even gained acceptance? I say, move and provide a forward. Given the earlier debates, I should perhaps note that I say this as someone with no problem with the definition of Quebec as a nation.

Essentially for two reasons: 1) Midsummer/Nativity of St. John the Baptist/St. John the Baptist Day is a religious celebration common to many (historically) Catholic nations. 2) The public holiday of June 24, St. John the Baptist Day, is officially called the National Holiday since 1977.
Out of habit, a great many Quebecers continued to call the day la Saint-Jean just as they kept calling breakers breillequeur even after learning that in French the word was disjoncteur. A people changes their habits as easily as an individual it seems... :-) --- Mathieugp 23:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Quebecers or québécois?[edit]

I feel that "québécois" is a more pleasant title and more politically correct, so I made the replacement. If you are of the other opinion, feel free to revert, but please comment. Thanks. Tyler (talk) 07:57, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The English word "Quebecer" translates the French word "Québécois". In every Act of the Parliament of Quebec or any regulation or official administrative document, that is the term used. -- Mathieugp (talk) 14:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Financing & Political signification[edit]

I just came across this article on cyberpresse.ca which may be a good reference (read the second part "Le Québec choyé?") to the "Political nature of the celebration" paragraph of this article. I'm not sur how to link this properly, or if it's even a good idea to do this, considering the Cyberpresse article is in French. Unfortunately, there doesn't appear to be an equivalent article in the current editions of Montreal's English media. Scyrma (talk) 13:42, 23 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Why a French title?[edit]

Why is this article under a French title? This is an English Wikipedia, so it should be at Quebec National Holiday, shouldn't it? — Kpalion(talk) 22:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User Kpalion is right. It is called the "National Holiday" in the very Act of Parliament giving the day its legal existence. The article should consequently be given an English name, since it is exists officially. I am moving the article to "Quebec's National Holiday". -- Mathieugp (talk) 01:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
: The usual English translation is Saint Jean Baptiste Day.
Only the Quebec government uses this translation, and it holds not legal weight as English is not an official language in Quebec. I don't see why one translation should weigh more than the common usage of the term in English.

--soulscanner (talk) 01:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was consensus favors a move, but has not decided on a destination at this time. Regretably, defaults to no move at this time JPG-GR (talk) 05:37, 25 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal[edit]

  • So we have a consensus here that the article should be given an English name. That is good.

However, "Quebec's national holiday" is a poor choice because of Wikipedia naming conventions:

" ... article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize"

The following scholarly and popular sources all show that English-speaking Canadians and Americans as a whole recognize June 24 as Saint Jean Baptiste Day:

Only Quebec government translations uses the direct translation "Quebec's national holiday", and even this holds no legal weight as English is not an official language in Quebec. I don't see why an invalid legalistic translation should weigh more than the common usage of the term in English, particularly since wikipolicies discourage specialized legal contexts like this:

"The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists."

--soulscanner (talk) 05:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response Part 1[edit]

  • The belief that Fête nationale was also the official name of it in English was my initial assumption. I was mistaken. Indeed, many institutions in Québec retain their French name in English, in all official documents emanating from both Québec and Ottawa, as per Quebec's Charter of the French Language. For example, Commission des normes du travail does, but many others do not. In the case we are concerned with, as I have clearly showed above by linking to the National Holiday Act, "National Holiday" and not Fête nationale is used. There are many reasons why, in virtue of Wikipedia's naming conventions, and other good reasons, the article should be moved from Fête nationale du Québec to "Quebec's National Holiday":
1) 1.5 Use English words: Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form.
This is precisely what I am proposing to do. Just that is good reason enough, but there is more.
2) 1.7 Be precise when necessary: Convention: Please, do not write or put an article on a page with an ambiguously named title as though that title had no other meanings. If all possible words have multiple meanings, go with the rule of thumb of naming guidelines and use the more popular term.
As the articles Midsummer and Nativity of St. John the Baptist reveal, Quebecers are not the only people celebrating June 24th. I will come back to this later, but in a nutshell, the subject of the article is June 24 as Quebec's National Holiday while the more general topic of St. John the Baptist's Day is covered elsewhere in this encyclopedia.
3) "Quebec National Holiday" is used extensively with 40,900 hits. It is obviously less used than "Fête nationale du Québec" (88,900 hits) but not in English. Obviously, the facts that Quebecers are a majority to speak French, have French as their only official language, are there to explain why 99% of all things written on Quebec's National Holiday are done so in French. In spite of this, we still get a far from negligible 40,900 hits.
4) "National Holiday" is not only used extensively, it is officially called that way. I do not understand where the idea that it would be "an invalid legalistic translation" comes from. Which word of the three words in "Quebec's National Holiday" would be legal jargon? Had the Parliament of Quebec wanted to recognize Fête nationale as the only official designation in any language, it could have made a regulation concerning this. But it did not. And "National Holiday" does not only show up in that Act of Parliament, it shows up in 40,900 Google hits. The complete dismissal of Quebec's main political institutions (the Parliament and the Government) as sources worthy of mention strikes me as severely biased. To my knowledge, this would be unprecedented inside Wikipedia.

Reasons why moving from Fête nationale du Québec to "Saint Jean Baptiste Day" is not a good idea:

A) As alluded to above, the article's subject is about June 24th, St. John the Baptist Day since before Quebec even existed, as Quebec's own particular National Holiday. In the French Wikipedia, confusion arose from the fact that Fête de la Saint-Jean redirected straight to Fête nationale du Québec. In other words, Quebec cannot claim "Saint Jean Baptist Day" to itself. Many people searching for this holiday will not be finding what they were looking for in this Quebec-centric article. There is a need for disambiguation there, which a good name provides.
B) That "Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day", "St. Jean Baptiste Day" or other forms is used a lot in English is about as significant as the fact that "New York City" is often called the "Big Apple". It is certainly worthy of mention in the article, in fact in the case of Quebec's National Holiday, it is impossible to go around, but in my opinion not sufficient to justify making abstraction of the day's official name in the English language.

Soulscanner's unilateral renaming to "Fête nationale du Québec (Saint Jean Baptiste Day)" is even more problematic:

a) After reverting my renaming, stating that such a bold move should first be discussed in the talk page, he arbitrarily decides to go his own way, not waiting for any feedback. That is about as contradictory as it can get.
b) The new title combines the weaknesses of both "Fête nationale du Québec" and "Saint Jean Baptiste Day", and adds the new and important one of its being unprecedented among articles in the National Days category. -- Mathieugp (talk) 17:02, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • None of this addresses the point at hand, which is that wiki naming conventions require choosing the term most English speakers will recognize. You have made no argument about which expression English speakers are most likely to recognize. In English-speaking Canada and the U.S., the most common usage and most easily recognized term is Saint Jean Baptiste Day, and I've provided references that show this. Official Quebec government translations, which are numerous on the web, do not reflect general usage among English-speakers, except within the Quebec government, where English-speakers are actually rather rare. Wikipedia and most English-speakers are not governed by the translation policies of the Quebec government. --soulscanner (talk) 22:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The Wiki convention on naming articles is made out of many points, and cannot be reduced to the "requirement" of choosing the term most English speakers will recognize. First of all, the whole point of this is not to introduce either colloquialism or inaccessible technical jargon in the naming of the articles. This is not at all the case here between "Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day" and "Quebec's National Holiday". Not only that, but the sources you provided "prove" absolutely nothing. Many of these sources are not concerned with our National Holiday specifically and there are several repetitions:
1. The Canadian Encyclopedia article is concerned with the celebration of SJB Day throughout Canada and the USA. Of course the article cannot be named either "Fête nationale du Québec" or "Quebec's National Holiday" if that is the focus of the article.
2. The Encyclopedia Britannica article is actually named "Fête Nationale du Québec". Was Wikipedia their source?
3. The Heritage Canada page is concerned with the celebration of SJB Day in Canada only and induce readers to believe that French Canadians somehow would still be honouring their Patron Saint! Talk about outdatedness!
4. The Prime Minister, Governor General, or the Parliament or the Government are all really one source and it would have been surprising if it had differed from Heritage Canada. They follow a common policy on this.
5. Ville de Montréal: A one liner in a communiqué?
6. City of Lethbridge: This one talks about the francophone minority of Alberta.
7. State of Maine: This one talks about the Franco-Americans of Maine.
8. NDP: Our buddy Jack here is talking "to all Quebecers and francophones of Canada".
9. Montreal.about.com: their article is almost entirely copied off Wikipedia's.
10. Ontario govt: this one is concerned with "Canada's Francophones" in general and Franco-Ontarians in particular.
-- Mathieugp (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The naming convention are clear:
A - " ... article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize"
B - " Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form."
For Example, see Bastille Day. If you do not accept this, I can't discuss this reasonably with you.
--soulscanner (talk) 03:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Several of your statements are also just plane wrong.
1. You are wrong that modern Quebec is not included in the article. The article on Saint Jean Baptiste celebrations documents Quebec Saint Jean festivities to the 90's. Example: " In 1990 the show 'Aux portes du pays' was given alternately at the Plains of Abraham and St-Helen's Island. This event, led by the singers Gilles Vigneault, Paul Piché, and Michel Rivard, attracted some 200,000 people."
2. The Encyclopedia Britanicca does not get its info from Wikipedia, as you imply
3. Quebec is in Canada, and obviously included in the Heritage Canada description.
4. Good point on the policies of the federal government. So which is a better authority on how English is commonly used and which terms would be most easily recognized in English: The government of Canada, which operates in English and French, or the Government of Quebec, which operated in French-only?
5. The Montrela website shows how Emglish is used and recognized in Quebec among English-speakers in Montreal.
6. Indeed. Franco Albertans also celebrate the French culture, just like the Quebecois.
7.In Maine, Saint Jean Baptiste is more easily recognized than Fete Nationale.
8. Indeed, he wishes a happy Saint Jean Baptiste to all Quebecers. He calls what teh Quebec government calls the "Fete Nationale" "Saint Jean Baptiste Day" like most anglophones.
9. Again, you're making it up. It is attributed Evelyn Reid, and her sources are listed at the bottom of the page. Wikipedia is not one of them.
10. The Ontario site celebrates Canada's francophones", which includes Quebec francophones. Similarly, as shown elsewhere, Quebec's festivities celebrate 400 years of francophone presence in North America. The similarities and overlap outweighs the differences.
--soulscanner (talk) 06:10, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response Part 2[edit]

  • I've no preference for either article title; but IMO this should've been discussed more (before being moved). GoodDay (talk) 17:41, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whatever is done, it cannot be moved to just "St. Jean Baptiste Day", as St. Jean Baptiste Day is celebrated in many parts of the world, without being a national holiday there. I don't have an objection to adding (St Jean Baptiste Day) to either "Fete Nationale du Quebec" or "Quebec National Holiday".--Ramdrake (talk) 23:49, 30 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The only thing relevant with the naming of the article here is this guideline:
Convention: Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form.
The above references clearly show that in most of Canada and the U.S., Saint Jean de Baptiste Day is more recognizable than the other terms. In Quebec, both are equally recognizable, so it does not favor one region over the other.
The fact that the Quebec government has called it a national holiday should be mentioned in the lead, of course, but it needs to be attributed to the Quebec government since the majority of English-speakers would not use the word "national".
As for national holidays, Independence Day, Bastille Day, and Canada Day are all national holidays, but they are not named as National Holiday of the United States, France and Canada on Wikipedia. --soulscanner (talk) 01:43, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • What a mess has been made with the mutilple moves. Let's have it discussed out. I think it is clear that the ideal title would be Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day as that is how it is best known and referred to in English. It is correct that the celebration of Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day is not isolated to Quebec and that the celebration is special and unique from others so separate articles may be desirable, though there is no non-Quebec Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day article yet. I would suggest a stub be created for a general Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day article and the specific Quebec article be located either at Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day (Quebec) or Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day (Canada). Cheers! DoubleBlue (Talk) 01:31, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Probably the best available solution; but the English for June 24 is St. John's Day. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:19, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's a good point. Would any other article about the day be called Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day or would they be called St. John's Day or similar? DoubleBlue (Talk) 20:14, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
        • This is a good point. Saint John's Day is a Catholic festival celebrated all over the world. Saint Jean Baptiste Day refers to a celebration of French Canadian culture all across Canada and in the U.S. as well. Please check the references above for confirmation. --soulscanner (talk) 03:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
          • I update my support for moving (returning?) to Saint Jean Baptiste Day. Outside of Quebec political-speak, it is largely referred to as that in English. I don't see any evidence that other celebrations having origins with Saint John, the Baptist, would be titled Saint Jean Baptiste Day in the English Wikipedia so disambiguation is unnecessary, though friendly hat-notes and See also sections would be good. The fact of being also known as la Fête nationale du Quebec should be noted as well in the lede. DoubleBlue (Talk) 23:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The current title is terrible. "Name (synonym)" is against the conventions and forces a redirect for any reasonable search. The multiple moves have not been done properly either, and now there are double and triple (and more) redirects, so it's a horrible mess on top of that. As much as the official name is "official", it's not common use in English (even in French, "la Saint-Jean" is arguably more used than "fête nationale"). So, for an article on Quebec's National Holiday (the government appointed official name in English) the title should probably be Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day (hyphen use debatable, but I'd rather not use the abbreviation St. for Saint). Any official and other common use names (in French and English) should be included in the introduction. Everything else regarding Quebec's national holiday should redirect there. A disambiguation to separate article(s) on the various June 24 celebrations (either relating to Saint-John the Baptist or the summer solstice) would be necessary on the page as well (instead of making a separate section on such holidays as celebrated outside of Quebec).--Boffob (talk) 16:23, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with a disambiguation. The general June 24th article already exist as Midsummer Day. The specific religious celebration is at Nativity of St. John the Baptist. The subject here is neither the pagan celebration of the sun, nor the Christian honouring of St. John the Baptist, but the secular national day of Quebecers. Regarding the most commonly used expression in English, well ""Saint Jean Baptiste Day" currently returns only 17,000 hits. Oddly enough, the changes we have made here appear to have affected Google results greatly as "Quebec National Holiday" went from 40,900 hits just yesterday to 7,380 hits. In any case, we cannot assert for certain that one is widely used while the other isn't. In the French language article, the fact that "Fête nationale" is the real name while "la St-Jean-Baptiste" or simply "la St-Jean" are popular nicknames is in the lead paragraph. It would be odd if the English article had it reversed. -- Mathieugp (talk) 16:55, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • This clearly shows how google hits are unreliable; there are too many sources that refer to this page to be reliable, and shows why so many are anxious to use Wikipedia to push political POV's. We need solid multiple references. Wikipedia is not here to advance the translation policies of the Quebec government. There are ten solid references above that show that the most recognizable name in English is Saint Jean Baptiste Day. It should be mentioned that the official Quebec government name is just like the Fete Nationale du Quebec, that the official Quebec government translation is National Holiday of Quebec, and that the common French name is La Saint Jean. Bastille Day is a good precedent for this. --soulscanner (talk) 03:29, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The current name is bad because it is formatted as a disambiguation but as there's only one Fête nationale du Québec there's nothing to disambiguate. Reversing it to Saint Jean Baptiste Day (Fête nationale du Québec) would make more sense as there are other St. John the Baptist Days. Reggie Perrin (talk) 19:13, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Although I'm not really sure which title would be best, I must say that the current one is awful. Saint Jean Baptiste Day would probably be best for english speakers, then we can start to cleanup all the mis-redirects. -Royalguard11(T) 19:59, 1 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Response Part 3[edit]

  • Absolutely support a move to Saint Jean Baptiste Day. Quebec's National Holiday is awkward, never used in English, and ignores the fact that while it is a statutory holiday in Quebec, it is celebrated by French-Canadians outside the province. Gabrielthursday (talk) 20:50, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think editors may want to first discuss whether the article is about
1)The generic holiday of the saint patron of French-Canadians, celebrated throughout Canada and in some parts of the United States
2)The official National Holiday of the Province of Quebec, declared as such since 1977.
These are two related holidays, but they're definitely not the same in scope or meaning (at least in the present). Maybe they should have separate articles?--Ramdrake (talk) 23:46, 2 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • It is about both, since the Province of Quebec adopted Saint Jean Baptiste Day as a "national" holiday for the Quebecois, the same way France adopted Bastille Day and Ireland adopted Saint Patrick's Day as their national holidays. La Saint Jean celebrates the French fact in North America, including Quebec, other Canadian provinces, and the United States. You need only look at this years Fete nationale home page to see this:
Sans aucun doute, le 24 juin 2008 est le moment idéal pour célébrer non seulement les quatre siècles d'existence de la ville de Québec, mais surtout quatre siècles d'une présence francophone en Amérique du Nord.[1]
Contrary, to the politically correct translations put out by the Quebec government, they are not celebrating the presence of anglophones in Quebec, nor are they ever likely to. Nobody particularly wants it to be more than a celebration of francophone culture anyways. --soulscanner (talk) 04:58, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Ramdrake. In Quebec (for some) the day is seen as a national day for the Quebec nation. Outside of Quebec (and presumably the Quebec nation) it retains its former meaning. That duality and tension must be dealt with in the article or the article must be split. --Kevlar (talk • contribs) 00:14, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, thank you to Ramdrake and Kevlar for actually paying attention to what I wrote. There is a holiday, which is not Quebec's, which is celebrated by Christians in many places. Then there is the National Holiday of Quebec which became such with every bit as much lawfulness as Canada Day on July 1st. The reason it is celebrated on June 24th is because this date, St. John the Baptiste Day, was already the de facto national day for the majority of Quebecers since 1834. The June 24th celebration by out-of-Quebec minorities who share the same national heritage as the majority of Quebecers, mostly in New England, Ontario and the Canadian West, is obviously connected and in fact has the exact same origin in June 1834. That is why the article talks about it to a greater extent than that of the Scandinavians or Baltic peoples. The article has been named Fête nationale du Québec since August 21, 2002. I thought at this time it was pretty clear what the focus of the article was. Now, I thought that Fête nationale was the official name in English too. When, improving the article with footnoting, I became aware of the fact that it was officially called "National Holiday" in English, in all official documents that are not in French only (as most are), I seriously thought nobody would blink. I cannot understand why there are people who think that a Canadian law adopted by the Parliament of Quebec, which has been in force for well over 30 years, is not the most authoritative source to determine what is the official name of the very statutory public day we are talking about. Everyone knows it is popularly called la St-Jean. It's there in the lead paragraph in the French article. -- Mathieugp (talk) 02:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The translation of the law you cited shows how it is translated by the Government of Quebec. Using this as authoritative would be pushing the POV reflected in Quebec government policies over Wiki naming conventions; these stipulate that the common usage should be used (See Bastille Day for example of English usage prefered over native expressions). Even if official government laws were authoritative, the English translation has no official standing, as English is not an official language in Quebec. The references above show the term as it is recognized and used by English speakers.
The Wikipedia convention is not in opposition to using an official English name for something. You are trying to reduce the convention to "most popular expression" and ignore the rest of the points in the convention. As I demonstrated above, your references are not a proof that one expression is widely used while the other isn't. You can't just overrule an official designation because you do not like it. And why would Bastille Day be a better example to follow over, let's say, Canada Day, which happens to strictly adhere to the naming convention and whose very naming scheme I propose we follow? --Mathieugp (talk) 15:18, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Had the editor read Wiki naming conventions before unilaterally moving the article, this page would not have been moved in the first place. Nowhere does it say that government legislation is authoritative. It stresses that the most common English usage is preferred in naming, and that other native usages should be mentioned in the lead. --soulscanner (talk) 04:11, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
So, Soulscanner, let me get this right: strictly regarding the National Holiday of the Provice of Quebec, you don't recognize the authority of the Government of Quebec to name the holiday itself? Also, please note that it is plain wrong to declare that the "English translation has no official standing, as English is not an official language in Quebec". This is a total non sequitur. If the Government has take thr trouble to issue a directive saying the name is such in both French and English, then that ruling is the law, at least in the Province of Quebec. Let me be clear on this:
  • Outside Quebec and in Canada, St Jean Baptiste Day is the day to honor all those of French-Canadian descent.
  • Within Quebec, it is now designated the National Holiday of all Quebecers, irrespective of their origins.
I'd say this probably warrnts separate articles, but I'll be happy to leave the decision to consensus.--Ramdrake (talk) 06:32, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with Soulscanner that the common english Name should be used, which in this case is St. Jean Baptiste Day. On the broader question raised by Ramdrake, I think this article should address both the broader holiday and its particular incarnation in Quebec today. The holidays are not sufficiently distinct to merit separate treatment. Gabrielthursday (talk) 06:47, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wikipedia naming policies is governed by the consensus of editors, not the Quebec government. The Quebec government has no control over what English-speakers call Saint Jean Baptiste Day, not even in Quebec. They only have control over how it used within the Quebec government, which is a largely academic fact, as the Quebec government operates in French-only and is run 99% by francophones.
Finally, in Quebec as elsewhere in Canada, Saint Jean Baptiste Day mostly celebrates the French culture and language in North America. The Fete nationale home page says:
Sans aucun doute, le 24 juin 2008 est le moment idéal pour célébrer non seulement les quatre siècles d'existence de la ville de Québec, mais surtout quatre siècles d'une présence francophone en Amérique du Nord.[2]
That covers the gamut of French Canadians and francophones in Quebec AND elsewhere in Canada. Some might parrot the politically correct, official government-speak line that this includes anglophones and natives for appearance sake, but in the end francophones do not, will not, and should not dilute the celebration of their French culture for the sake of political correctness; I won't hold my breath on the SSJB celebrating 250 years of anglophone presence in Quebec in 2010; that would be a pathetic, awkward sight that would embarrass all involved. The usual "Quebec Libre" people will solemnly mark the Conquest like they usually do. --soulscanner (talk) 09:35, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • If we're gonna be quoting, from the same site:
D'une fête de la grande famille canadienne-française à la Fête du peuple québécois, la Fête nationale du Québec constitue la fête de tous ceux et celles qui composent le Québec d'aujourd'hui.
  • I'm sorry for you if you're a Quebecer and feel left out of the holiday, but the intent of the holiday in Quebec is clear: it celebrates the province and all of its people. The rest is your POV. Since the oldest continuously inbabited French settlement in North America was founded just a little more than 400 years ago (Tadoussac, 1599 - with Quebec City being the second oldest and by far better known), it is indeed exact to say there has been four centuries of francophone presence in North America. This does by no means limit the scope of the Fête Nationale in the Province of Québec to just francophones.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:16, 3 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whose intent of the holiday? These things need to be cited in Wikipedia. Also, the stated intent of a few does not neccessarily reflect that of the public or even those making these claims. I'll leave it to wiki editors to decide whether statements about this added scope are politically correct propaganda, or if indeed the celebration of, say, Quebec anglophones, their language, and their 250 year presence in Quebec is indeed comparable to the celebrations of francophones all over North America. --soulscanner (talk) 04:48, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Survey[edit]

I think we need to move this along to a better decision-making structure. There seem to be two open questions.

Firstly, should this article be divided into a Fête nationale du Québec/Quebec's National Holiday article dealing with the statutory holiday in contemporary Quebec and a Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day article dealing with the broader holiday.

Secondly, if this article should be maintained in its current form, what name should it be under?

Have at it everyone! Gabrielthursday (talk) 00:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Split[edit]

Ramdrake noted that the day in question now has different meanings and activities in Quebec as opposed to French-Canadian and French-American communities outside Quebec, and asks if this necessitates a division of the article. Kevlar echoes this concern.Gabrielthursday

  • Oppose I believe these celebrations to be at most regional variations, and therefore don't merit separate treatment. They come from the same historical source and maintain substantial commonalities. Gabrielthursday (talk) 00:50, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Article shouldn't be split. GoodDay (talk) 01:13, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose There should be a section entitled dealing with the "Fete Nationale du Quebec" describing the differences and the debate about how it is different. It's true that the holiday is more politicized in Quebec, but not to the extent of requiring a seperte article. If this section grows so that makes this article too long, we should consider an article for Fete Nationale du Quebec. --soulscanner (talk) 03:52, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The split needed is already there. There is the St. John the Baptiste Day, celebrate by many people where Christianity was important. In the English Wikipedia, the article is at Nativity of St. John the Baptist, while the pre-Christian celebration is at Midsummer Day. -- Mathieugp (talk) 06:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per soul scanner. I am not convinced that we need a separate article on the different meanings and activities in Quebec, however a section on "Fete Nationale du Quebec" within the SJBD article is fine. DigitalC (talk) 06:28, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • 'Oppose per discussion below regarding few sources of a "worldwide" SJBD, and that it appears most external SJBD celebrations are meant to be an observance of the "official" celebration. .:davumaya:. 18:55, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

A great number of names have been suggested. There is the current name (though I don't think anyone has actually supported it). There are also proposed "Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day", "Fête nationale du Québec" and "Quebec's National Holiday". Mathieugp has pointed out that "Fête nationale du Québec" is the official title of the holiday in Quebec, and "Quebec's National Holiday" is the English translation of that holiday. Soulscanner has helpfully quoted some naming conventions, which I repeat here:

  • " ... article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize"
  • "The names of Wikipedia articles should be optimized for readers over editors, and for a general audience over specialists."
  • "Name your pages in English and place the native transliteration on the first line of the article unless the native form is more commonly recognized by readers than the English form."
  • "Please, do not write or put an article on a page with an ambiguously named title as though that title had no other meanings. If all possible words have multiple meanings, go with the rule of thumb of naming guidelines and use the more popular term."

Much more debate is to be found above. Gabrielthursday (talk) 00:57, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day[edit]
  • Support As an aside, I quickly looked at the sources Soulscanner listed above, and found this to be the principal spelling (the dashes). I think this best reflects the naming conventions mentioned above, it being the main name English-speakers use for this holiday. Also, given that this celebration extends beyond Quebec, unless the subject is split, I don't believe the Quebec-centric names are accurate. Gabrielthursday (talk) 00:55, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, follows the guidelines as English common use.--Boffob (talk) 01:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I Support this name. -Royalguard11(T) 02:18, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I don't see a need to repeat the arguments above except to say that this is the way this Quebec holiday is known in English. DoubleBlue (Talk) 03:15, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I've already said too much. --soulscanner (talk) 04:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Supporting this name violates all main points of the convention, except "prefer English". In 1977, a new statutory legal holiday was created under the legal of "National Holiday". That day was set on June 24, St. John the Baptiste Day since many centuries, and the de facto National Holiday of the Quebec nation since 1834. While Fête national du Québec entered the vocabulary and replaced Fête de la St-Jean in all formal communications, the later is still used very much and mentions of this appears in the lead paragraph in the French language article. Quebec cannot claim St. John the Baptiste Day as its own: it belongs to all peoples who celebrate it. However, Quebec's National Holiday belongs to Quebec, and that is the subject and focus of the article, as it has been since 2002 under the name of Fête nationale du Québec. Having the first line of the article saying St-Jean-Baptiste Day (French: Fête nationale du Québec) clearly reveals the impropriety of such a renaming. -- detached element of comment by Mathieugp (talk) 06:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose This article is about the Quebec Holiday, as it is celebrated in Quebec. The name of the holiday was changed 30 years ago. No sense in keeping the article under the former name.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:31, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I'm sorry, I really wanted to support but after evaluating the evidence at hand and reviewing Naming Conflict, I must ultimately consider that SJBD is now a minor element in the holiday's overall mythos. As well the article is indeed about a Quebec holiday, I would not prescribe a worldwide view on the article subject. When we consider "common usage," the best descriptive name is QNB or NHOQ, whereas SJBD dubiously does not have enough source material to justify its mythos separate from Quebec. Comparatively I looked at a very parallel example in Norway. The article Norwegian Constitution Day has prevailed as the de facto name (as well as govt name) even though Syttende Mai and Nasjonaldagen are more precise to the roots of the holiday. Syttende Mai is also celebrated across the world even though the holiday has quite a different meaning today. .:davumaya:. 19:13, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Ok...so I'm actually not going to read the entire discussion due to the enormous size of the text...anyways, Speaking of National Holidays, take the article on France's National Holiday for example: the article is not called le Quatorze juillet or National Holiday (France) but Bastille Day. In the same line of thinking, this article should be named Saint Jean Baptiste Day. That's my 2₵. nat.utoronto 01:43, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Quebec's National Holiday[edit]
  • Comment Should be presented as official Quebec government translation. It appears on some government websites and it is worth mentioning. --soulscanner (talk) 04:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for the numerous reasons I have stated above, and in conformity with the naming scheme of Canada Day, formerly known as Dominion Day. -- Mathieugp (talk) 06:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per Naming conflict guideline.--Ramdrake (talk) 23:49, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Per Wikipedia naming conventions, shouldn't it be at National Holiday (Quebec)? I haven't seen any sources that refer to it as "Quebec's National Holiday" in english. DigitalC (talk) 00:54, 7 July 2008 (UTC). [I have since seen those sources. I still believe National Holiday of Quebec to be a better title.] DigitalC (talk) 05:20, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This is the most disambiguous name and effectively describes it. I do not believe naming conventions need to always apply, they only apply when there is too much ambiguity (ie: if the direct translation is simply National Holiday or La Fête nationale). See Constitution Day for my comparative -- ie: Constitution Day (Denmark) because the official name "Grundlovsdag" literally means Constitution Day where as Norwegian Constitution Day was adopted by the gov't.
Fête nationale du Québec[edit]
  • Comment There should be a section named this to describe this event in Quebec since 1977. Care should be taken to attribute any statements or translation to the Quebec government and political organizations advocating this usage. If this section gets large enough, we should discuss moving this section to a new page. --soulscanner (talk) 04:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment If consensus on the renaming fails, we should revert to this one. -- Mathieugp (talk) 06:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would support that based on the fact that the current article name is ridiculously long. .:davumaya:. 19:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
National Holiday (Quebec)[edit]
  • While I think the S-J-B Day is most appropriate, with a section on Fete nationale du Quebec (as part of the celebrations of SJB day), if it is decided that Quebec's celebration should be split from the discussion of SJB day, I think it should be at this name. DigitalC (talk) 06:33, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not necessarily opposed to this name for reasons above. If your official translation actually is Quebec's National Holiday or National Holiday of Quebec then there is no reason to follow naming convention because its already disambiguated. IF however (I'm in MN not Canada) that "common usage" indicates someone would type in National Holiday and expect Quebec to come up, that is when this naming convention applies. .:davumaya:. 19:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Other[edit]
  • I thought I'd note this as input from places outside Canada with French Canadian history -- ala Minnesota where all our streets are named after Frenchmen. We call it "Fête de la St. Jean-Baptiste" [3] The article states "This Monday marks the 12th annual celebration of St. Jean-Baptiste, an official holiday in Quebec, John the Baptist being the patron saint of the city (Mendota, Minnesota." .:davumaya:. 07:35, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Btw the history of the first Fete is here [4] .:davumaya:. 07:37, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, even in Minnesota. Probably your streets are named after a mix of French, Quebecers, and maybe Acadians. Of all three peoples, only Quebecers have elected June 24 as their national day. That of the Acadians is called National Acadian Day, and occurs on August 15, while that of the French, called French National Day, is on July 14.
Howabout Saint Jean Baptiste Day (Fête nationale du Québec)? GoodDay (talk) 16:05, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's the same problem as now, redundant title, forces a redirect of searches and pretty much automatic piping of links in articles.--Boffob (talk) 16:29, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further Commentary[edit]

  • I recommend people to read the actual convention. For example, it does not state that "article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize", it states that "article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." Also, it is inaccurate to state that the official name is "Fête nationale du Québec" while "Quebec's National Holiday" is the English translation. If it had been true, then I would have left the name of the article as it was for many years. It is the indisputable fact that in English the holiday is formally named, in virtue of the Canadian law creating it, the "National Holiday" of Quebec. The Canadian constitution forces the Parliaments of Ottawa and Quebec to adopt laws in English and French and both are official. -- Mathieugp (talk) 06:04, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clearly, the editor is arguing that official government policies and conventions trump wikipedia naming conventions that assign the title that most English-speakers recognize. This is not a valid arguement. It would push political POV's espoused in government documents. The convention is clear. The Wiki policy is clearly applied at Bastille Day, where the common English name is used to name the article, and the official government name is acknowledged in the lead. this has been pointed out several times, and the editor needs to acknowledge this convention. --soulscanner (talk) 08:44, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not at all: for example "Car" is the most used English term, but the article is still under "Automobile".--Ramdrake (talk) 11:46, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Both are equally recognizable, though, so it isn't a big deal. --soulscanner (talk) 19:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am arguing against the ambiguity of St. John or St-Jean Baptiste Day and in favour of the formal and legal name of the day in the English language, in absolute conformity with the naming convention, instead of only a part of it. Bastille Day, is an article with a big "This article needs additional citations for verification.", and, in German, the article is correctly named Französische Nationalfeiertag. "Bastille Day", Jour de la Bastille, does not even appear once in the French-language article and certainly is not the best example among the many national day articles in English Wikipedia. It even says over at Fête de la Fédération that July 14 is "commemorated every year by what is improperly known in English as "Bastille Day" (Fête du 14 juillet in French)." If the "most popular" name of a subject was to be the only rule, then most likely, as Ramdrake pointed out, "Car" would win over "Automobile". The convention advises against too specialized terms, which makes perfect sens and that is why the article Cat is named Cat and not Felis catus. There is nothing technical or jargonesque in the expression "National Holiday" or "National Day", so any argument from that premise is plain wrong. -- Mathieugp (talk) 16:17, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do you acknowledge and understand that the principle convention is to "prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize"? I'd like a yes or no to this question because in my mind this policy is clear. Please show good faith and answer the question clearly. I want to make sure you understand the naming convention; I'm assuming good faith here and assuming that you do not understand the policy as opposed to deliberately contradicting it. Let's keep it brief and focused on the naming convention for now. If you refuse to acknowledge a clear and explicit naming convention, the process cannot move forward, and we'll proceed with a Request for comment to move along the dispute resolving process. --soulscanner (talk) 19:08, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do you acknowledge and understand that, in a nutshell, the convention states: "Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature." and that taking only a part of this sentence, whichever it may be, misrepresents the convention and is erroneous? Are you deliberately contradicting this statement of fact in good faith? Are you also deliberately asserting, against basic common sense, that the greatest number of English speakers would not easily recognize what an article named "Quebec's National Holiday" or "National Holiday of Quebec" is concerned with? Are you seriously believing people neutral in the affair, i.e., non-Canadians and non-Quebecers, will not see that your objection to this article name is solely based on your opposition to the adjective "National" being used to characterize either all of Quebec or all Quebecers? -- Mathieugp (talk) 22:12, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In all fairness Mathieugp, you began this thread of topic and Soulscanner is responding to it. By responding to his questions with more questions, that is essentially WP:bad faith. Editors are here to compromise with your viewpoint, not defeat you. As well, it is apparent you have a conflict of interest in this debate because you are continually deviating from the question of naming convention policy at hand (ie: representation of specific groups in Canada). Please be civil and kindly answer Soulscanner's question regarding the Naming policy to further debate. By rhetorically pasting a whole paragraph of questions back at him, that is quite bollocks. .:davumaya:. 23:52, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In all fairness .:davumaya:., you are missing a lot of info to be able to judge what is going on here. I am sure however that you are in good faith and you should believe that I am too. I do not compromise on what I know to be exactly in line with Wikipedia's policies. I rewrote the article, adding many footnotes and in doing the job I discovered the French name of the article was not only unnecessary, it was inappropriate. Prior to this, user Kpalion at exactly 22:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC) had asked Why a French title? in the talk page. Renaming from the 6-year old article name of Fête nationale du Québec to Quebec's National Holiday should have been a walk in the park and a welcomed move to an actual English title. Unfortunately, Soulscanner, who is not at all acting in good faith unlike what you presume, who did not even try to hide his hostility toward the very name which the people of Quebec, through their representatives in Parliament assembled, have chosen for their own National Day some 30 years ago, had to bully his POV once again through his usual routine. After policing me for renaming the article "without discussion" he arbitrarily reverted my change and proceeded to his own renaming. There is no good faith there. This is the sad repetition of an old scenario, to which a few of us are familiar with here. I meant and still mean every single word of what I wrote in the paragraph above, in reply to the trick question of Soulscanner. His question is a Loaded question, a type of logical fallacy to which no rational person can answer without implying something that is not true. I.e., if I answer "yes", then I am saying that his misrepresentation of the convention is true, and if I answer "no", then I look like I am against the convention which is not true. No Wikipedia administrator worth the name is going to miss noticing this, the same for who is and who isn't acting in good faith. There is all that, and the fact that the ultimatum behind "I'd like a yes or no to this question..." and "If you refuse to acknowledge a clear and explicit naming convention..." is quite impolite, against the etiquette I personally follow, and most inappropriate for a user who is not an administrator, and has absolutely no reason whatsoever to address me on the tone of authority as he does. -- Mathieugp (talk)[reply]
All I'd like to know is whether you realize that wikipedia policy says that articles should be named according to the name most English-speakers recognize. It's not complicated and doesn't require a long answer. I'm not asking if you agree with the policy itself. We need to agree on what wikipolicy says before we proceed. If we don't, we'll request a comment. --soulscanner (talk) 06:13, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mathieugp, I find your accusation of bad faith offensive. We are working on finding the best most NPOV title for the article. Certainly we come from different points-of-view but the goal is true. DoubleBlue (Talk) 00:50, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Souslcanner, if you're saying that what you're quoting is part of official Wikipedia policy, then the answer is yes, of course. If you mean for others to acknowledge that what you're quoting is the entirety of the relevant Wikipedia policy, the answer is an emphatic no. The policy (as already pointed out by Mathieugp), says exactly this: Generally, article naming should prefer what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature. I took the time to read over the entire article, only to find out that it is about eh June 24 celebration, as it is celebrated in Quebec, with vanishingly little material about the celebrations outside of Quebec (or Lower Canada): one mention that it was once promoted as a gathering of French-Canadians throughout North America. The rest is all about the history and politics of the holiday in Quebec. In this context, the applicable name for the article would be the name of the holiday as it is in Quebec (National Holiday), with possibly a section about the fact that the celebration outside Quebec retains its former name. Retaining the name of St-Jean-Baptiste Day would create an ambiguity as to whether the article is about the Quebec Holiday or the generic French-Canadian holiday, when it is demonstrably about the Quebec holiday. For these reasons, I would recommend that the article be kept at Quebec's National Holiday, but would accept as a compromise, that the article remain with its current, dual title.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:26, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It can't stay with a dual title, that's just against all naming conventions (it forces a redirect for any search except the particular dual one). You have to pick one, then address the other significant names in the intro. If there are too many names, you can make a section just for them in the article. Having read the naming conventions and the naming conflict guidelines, technically, the three proposed names (Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day, Quebec's National Holiday (though National Holiday of Quebec would be more formal) and Fête nationale du Québec) are all valid names under the conventions (the last one because of Canadian naming conventions). The google test gives Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day the edge in most hits (for English pages). And, though officially the government calls it the "fête nationale", the named Saint-Jean-Baptiste is still widely used in French and English. As for whether the article should exclusively deal with the Quebec celebration or all its celebrations as a holiday of all Canadiens (through one of their patron saints, people keep forgetting Sainte Anne...), that's a separate issue. If the decision is to relegate the non-Quebec material to a more generic June 24 or Saint John the Baptist celebration article, then Quebec's National Holiday would be the proper choice, but the redirects of Saint-Jean-Baptiste become an issue.--Boffob (talk) 14:41, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
User Boffob seems to have perfectly grasped the issue. It's also true that the veneration of Sainte-Anne is historically important. :-) "Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day" is sure to get a lot more hits than any other name in English. But many if not most of these hits will refer to local celebrations outside Quebec where it is not a statutory holiday and not the secular national day of the whole people. The why and the how the traditional June 24th celebration, with its Catholic masses, its religious processions, etc. got to be celebrated by Franco-Catholic minorities in the USA and in the English provinces of Canada is not well covered by the article at the moment. At the time of my rewriting, I did not know how to write something concise on this, without writing a whole new article on it. I wanted to work on this further eventually. It is hard to gather all the information. Believe it or not, there exists no single work offering a synthesis of all St-Jean-Baptiste Societies' activities in North America. I recently started a series of articles on various old institutions here and I am learning a lot at the moment. -- Mathieugp (talk) 16:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
(reset indent) I feel that is where the weak point is in renaming this article, if there isn't really a definitive source on all Saint JB holidays, it would be unfair to say this article is about SJBD-- we would be enforcing a naming convention that might not be appropriate. As I read it, the article is simply about a holiday in Quebec based on folklore of SJB. .:davumaya:. 08:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further Comentary II[edit]

Folks, just found this, on naming conflict. If we take into account the fact that the overwhelming majority of the article is about the holiday as it exists in Quebec, some of these points are of utmost importance:

A number of objective criteria can be used to determine common or self-identifying usage:

  • Is the name in common usage in English? (check Google, other reference works, websites of media, government and international organisations; focus on reliable sources) Google gives 35,200 hits for "Quebec's National Holiday.
  • Is it the official current name of the subject? (check if the name is used in a legal context, e.g. a constitution) Mathieugp has already demonstrated that this is the official designation of the holiday as chosen by the Quebec government.
  • Is it the name used by the subject to describe itself or themselves? (check if it is a self-identifying term). While this is more subjective, I would say a lot of Quebecers use this official designation for their holiday (not sure how to measure that appropriately, though)

Looking at these objective criteria, and taking into account the current subject of the article, I would definitely conclude that "Quebec's National Holiday" is the most appropriate name.--Ramdrake (talk) 23:09, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, as per this, Laws must be enacted in both languages in Quebec, New Brunswick and Manitoba. Since it was a law which changed the name of the holiday to "Quebec's National Holiday" in 1977, it's not really credible to contend that a law which is constitutionally required to be passed in both English and French doesn't have the same value in its English version as in its native French version. It would be denying any value to a law in certain language as opposed to another, going totally against the constitutional requirement of passing all laws in both languages, equally.--Ramdrake (talk) 23:27, 6 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good points found by Ramdrake. I guess this is no longer just a question of consensus over what is the preferred name: Wikipedia actually has a guideline on Naming conflicts meant specifically for cases like the one we are experiencing now. The guideline further supports Quebec's National Holiday or more formally National Holiday of Quebec over the others. -- Mathieugp (talk) 00:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mathieugp, could you find us the source of the official English-language name as per the Government of Quebec's law of 1977 (might be up there, but I couldn't find it)?--Ramdrake (talk) 00:42, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
National Holiday Act, R.S.Q. c. F-1.1 (CanLII)
National Holiday (Commission des normes du travail)
Québec's National Holiday around the world - June 24, 2006 (Ministère des Relations internationales)
Holiday Schedule (Canada Post)
-- Mathieugp (talk) 02:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The first source states - "The 24th of June, St. John the Baptist Day, is the National Holiday". It doesn't not mention "Quebec's National Holiday". The second link again does not mention "Quebec's National Holiday", only "National Holiday". The fourth source seems to be about celebration outside of Quebec, yet it has been argued above that the holiday only pertains to those in Quebec! DigitalC (talk) 23:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, the Act does not say "Quebec's National Holiday", it says "National Holiday". In French, it reads "Le 24 juin, jour de la Saint-Jean-Baptiste, est le jour de la fête nationale." Obviously, within the context of the Act, stating that it is not the "National Holiday" of Japan is unnecessary. I do not believe anyone said that "the holiday only pertains to those in Quebec". It is the national day of Quebec and is celebrated in various cities world wide, notably in Paris, where a parade is organized. The Americans or friends of the Americans celebrate the 4th of July wherever they are located on Earth (or in orbit), but only in the USA is it a federal holiday sanctioned with all the authority of the law. Does this clarify?
Links that have the full name are not hard to find (34,800 Google.ca hits at the moment):
Proceedings of the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs
The Montreal Gazette - LGH's decision to move Canada Day holiday sparks criticism
Québec's National Holiday
Québec's National Holiday: Loto-Québec's Offices Will be Closed Tuesday, June 24th
Canada Post - Holidays
Quebec City Attractions - Télégraphe de Québec
La loi vos droits > Employees > Public holidays
Nouvelle France Festival in Quebec City, Canada
Montreal Travel Guide
-- Mathieugp (talk) 00:51, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry. Wiki policy requires that Google searches add -wiki to avoid self-referencing wikipedia. Your numbers are too high. I checked. See below. --soulscanner (talk) 10:59, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question on policies[edit]

Question 1: Common Usage policy[edit]

  • Which do you think takes precedence:
1. The name in common usage in English (i.e. what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize);
2. The official current name of the subject.
I think #1 does. It certainly does for Saint Patrick's Day and Bastille Day, where common usage trumps the official designation as national holidays. If you disagree, just say so. I suggest we seek clarification on the subject before we proceed needlessly.
--soulscanner (talk) 07:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Common usage might apply here however, I must point out Soulscanner that the article is completely about SJBD in Quebec. If it were to be named so, the article would need to be heavily revamped to encompass a "worldwide" view of the holiday itself as well as expanding on its history and tradition as it exists for French-Canadians, not just in Quebec. Thus in this article's particular scope, common usage indicates what Quebecers(?) would use, that is likely the official name. .:davumaya:. 08:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, choosing option 1 implies changing the subject of the article, which is not at all being discussed here. Also, there is no absolute rule on this allowing us to pick either option 1 or 2: Sometimes there is a single name by which English speakers would most easily recognize some object, but sometimes these names lead to ambiguity problems and it is for us to rationally determine, case by case, as per the convention. If "St. John the Baptiste Day' was unequivocally known as Quebec's National Holiday as "Saint Patrick's Day" is known unequivocally as Irland's own, then there would be no problem. As I have written above, June 24th, "St. John the Baptiste Day", is inherently ambiguous for it was (and still is) celebrated by many peoples long before Quebec made it its official de jure national holiday, after being the de facto tradition for some 143 years. "Quebec's National Holiday" is not ambiguous, is the actual legal name, is used quite often according to Google, and is not "too specialized" a term to prohibit its adoption. -- .:davumaya:. (talk) 12:44, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Given that the subject of the article currently is the Quebec holiday, appropriate disambiguation would require that we use the official current name as it exists in Quebec (a variant of "Quebec's National Holiday" or "National Holiday (Quebec)"), otherwise this article could be confused with the celebration as it exists in other parts of North America, or even with the original religious feast.--Ramdrake (talk) 19:51, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This question was about whether "common use" takes precedence over official designations, and I'd appreciate a simple clear statement of whether the editors agree or disagree with me on this. .:davumaya:. has acknowledged it, thank you. talk continues to refuse to address it, and discussing a different topic. Ramdrake has not acknowledged the point, despite having posted the policy in the first place, also addressing a different topic. I don't mind discussing other aspects of the case, but do me the courtesy of addressing my question on your interpretation of the wiki policy in question. It is by no means irrelevant. Continued arguments predicated on the official designation taking precedence over common usage are an indication that the editors do not accept this. Am I correct in assuming this? --soulscanner (talk) 07:05, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not aware either that there is a rule allowing us to pick either option 1 or 2 as having precedent over the other, in any absolute fashion. Other contextual information, such as the subject of the article, specifically June 24th in Quebec, and the need for disambiguation, however should make us prefer option 2. That should answer your specific question.--Ramdrake (talk) 10:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It does not answer my question. The question for disambiguation is another story addressed below. Please answer my question. The question is on common usage vs. official government usage. I've said common usage is more important. You seem to disagree when you make your arguements about the official government usage. Is this true? Or am I mistaken? If you disagree, we'll need to clarify this with a request for comment. --soulscanner (talk) 10:36, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm saying your question is a non-sequitur. There is nothing in policy that places "common usage" in front or behind "official designation" per se. More variables must be examined, such as the need for dismbiguation, for example, or whether there is a naming conflict regarding the article, which in this case there is.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:31, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Question 2 Official designation[edit]

  • In addition to the ten scholarly or official references above, here are official sources at the federal government by and large refer to "Saint Jean Baptiste Day" or "Fete Nationale du Quebec" interchangeably. Are official government and institutional designations clear enough to base a decision on?
1. "On June 24, francophones across Canada, and especially those in Quebec, celebrate their common heritage." [culture.ca]
2.[Department of Canadian Heritage]
3.[Canada Post]
4.[City of Kingston]
5[Ontario Legislature]
6*[Passport Canada]
7*[Vanier College] (English CEGEP)

--soulscanner (talk) 07:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Some of Quebec's English Institutions officially use "fête nationale"; none call it "National Holiday":
1.[McGill University]
2.[Concordia University]
3.[John Abbot College]
--soulscanner (talk) 07:40, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Soul, I think we've established there is ambiguity and as such, we now must follow WP:Naming conflict. In accordance with this, it appears by your evidence that most websites are using a "descriptive" term of the holiday, that is the National Holiday of Quebec. It may of course be in French as La Fete Nationale. If so, then we should choose the most common English equivalent from that, which would be the first. And if official documents are unclear (ie: disputed by two jurisdictions) then we would default to common English equivalent. Perhaps your only leeway would be to examine Is it the name used by the subject to describe itself or themselves? (check if it is a self-identifying term) and whether whatever alternative you are going for is descriptive enough, not prescriptive (not "most appropriate"). .:davumaya:. 08:18, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Canada Post uses "Québec's National Holiday" here. Also, we have to expect that 99% of the federal government related Web sites will of course underline June 24th as a day celebrated by Canada's francophones. As such, they cannot fail to mention that June 24th is St. John the Batiste Day, which is true, and may sometimes also note that it is the Fête nationale/National Holiday in the province of Quebec. The federal government of Canada is unlikely to ever underline the comparable celebrations by minorities in the USA, just as Quebec's focus and concern is on its own celebration and practically ignores out-of-Quebec celebrations with the exception of those organized by Quebec's own department of international relations where it follows boring diplomatic protocols. ;-) -- Mathieugp (talk) 12:58, 7 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Determining Common usage[edit]

I agree whole heartedly that there is ambiguity in the official name, and that the next step is to determine common use. Lets go through the suggested tests:

1. Google Search (remember to use -wiki in search)

  • Saint Jean Baptiste Day - 13,500 English pages
  • Fete Nationale du Quebec - 9,860 English Pages
  • Quebec National Holiday - 5,570 English pages

I had to be careful with Fete Nationale to leave out the French pages. Even if you set the search for English pages only, many French texts come through. By leaving out French articles (-et -le -une -un) you can weed out some French texts. However, you also get pages like this one on Flickr where French Speakers post in French on "English" sites that beef up the numbers. Moreover, there are tonnes of sites like this on that scour wikipedia pages for info that also boost the numbers of any of these. That's why a google search is only one method The only sites I see using "descriptive names" are Quebec government websites; the Quebec government is trying to promote the nationalist POV that Quebec is a nation, so it's not surprising.

2. International organizations - Couldn't ind any references.

3. Major English media - this is most likely where you will find current usage:

Google News CBC
Saint Jean Baptiste Day 23 19
Fete Nationale (+Quebec -France) 42 39
Quebec National Holiday 3 9

What's interesting in all three references with "Quebec national holiday", the term appears as a descriptor for the holidays actual names: "Fete nationale", or more commonly, "Saint Jean Baptiste Day"

Canada's national anthem was actually originally performed, in French, on Quebec's national holiday of St. Jean Baptiste.[5]

Today the holiday is called La Fete Nationale, an even more banal title, as improbable as that would seem, than our "Canada Day." Just as the old "Dominion Day" spoke of our shared Canadian history, the fact that Quebec's national holiday was that of her patron saint, St. Jean Baptiste, reflected that the durability of French culture in Quebec and Canada was related in large part to its fervent Catholic faith.[6]

He said the hospital would probably do the same for St. Jean Baptiste Day if the law didn't specify that Quebec's national holiday must be celebrated on June 24.[7]

So moving Saint Jean Baptiste Day to "Quebec National Holiday" would be like moving Saint Patrick's Day to Ireland National Holiday. It would be awkward, using uncommon usage.

It's also interesting that common English usage of "Fete Nationale" when refering specifically to Quebec, not "Fete Nationale du Quebec". I think any use of "Fete Nationale" should take this into account.

To conclude, it's a toss up between Fete nationale and "Saint Jean Baptiste Day"; there seems to be conflicting usage frequencies in the media and general google searches. --soulscanner (talk) 10:19, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, had you thought of searching for "Quebec's National Holiday" instead of "Quebec National Holiday", you would have found 14,500 hits[8]. "Saint Jean Baptiste Day" garners 21,400 hits in my search, comparatively and "Fete Nationale +Quebec -France" gets 20,400 hits (pages from Canada only). Not sure how you cam up with your numbers, but in my search, it looks like "National Holiday" (either under the French or the English designation) is in fact more popular than "Saint Jean Baptiste Day".--Ramdrake (talk) 12:18, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lot's of mistakes here.
1) First, the fact that the official usage has remained Saint Patrick's Day cannot lead to any conclusion. The entire world associates St. Patrick with Ireland, there is no ambiguity there.
2) Your bias against Quebec's self-designation is noted. Regarding this, honesty and respect for the full story is preferred:
"Senator Joyal: I was trying to conciliate, in my mind, the National Acadian Day and the national French Canadian day, June 24 which is a holiday because it is recognized as a national holiday.
I am trying to understand how the Acadians perceive this holiday, which has been recognized by the Government of Quebec over the past 20 years as Quebec's national holiday. However, at the Canadian level, Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day remains the French Canadian holiday. I would like to know how you identify with this French Canadian holiday on June 24, since according to what you say, in 1881 you did not identify with that celebration."[9]
The excerpt above is about two Canadian federalist senators discussing a National Acadian Day. It is clear from this that Quebecers call their national holiday the "national holiday" while the federal government keeps referring to it as Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day, the French-Canadian holiday.
3) Google hits, using -wiki currently gives:
"Quebec's National Holiday" = 11,900 [10]
"Fête nationale du Québec" = 14,800 (only English-language pages) [11]
"Saint Jean Baptiste Day" = 12,600 [12]
The only thing we can conclude from this is that they are all three in frequent use.
It is pretty easy to guess that the Quebec government's self-reference is at the origin of th usage of both "Quebec's National Holiday" and "Fête nationale du Québec", and that the Canadian government's counter-reference explains the continued use of the antiquated "Saint Jean Baptiste Day" as an official designation in English and French. Since it was always the intention to not fail to mention that Quebecers popularly call the holiday as they did for centuries, this does not change much for the article. Surely nobody is seriously suggesting that an article on a Quebec-specific subject be designated by what Ottawa would like Quebecers to have called the day. -- Mathieugp (talk) 12:47, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You've acknoledge that Quebecers continue to call it "La Fete Saint Jean", which hardly makes it antiquated. It's Quebec government bureacrats, politicians, and radical natioanlist groups that call it Fete Nationale to advance a political agenda, and there is no need to let them do it here. The venting of your political pretty much shows your POV that is at the root of the conflict.
Your political ranting aside, I agree that they are all in frequent use . That is why I went to English media references,as outline in the naming conflict guidelines. Here, it's clear that Fete nationale is most frequent, and "Quebec's national holiday" is almost never used. --soulscanner (talk) 05:17, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Which would indicate that the name should be "Fete nationale" (Quebec) for disambiguation purposes.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:19, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Soulscanner: You have taken two sources: one which is Wikipedia's news service, very likely to use the name the article had in Wikipedia for 6 years, and the other which is Ottawa's. This hardly qualifies. Yet, we could see that all three names were still in use. Considering that Fête nationale and National Holiday are truly one name, declined in two languages, I think this designation more than qualifies. I have acknowledged that people continue to call it as it was called from tradition (I still do). No law is stronger than a socially-inherited habit. French speakers also call paper money de l'argent (silver) even though it makes no sense. Same for un char for an automobile (in Quebec at least). What is antiquated is officially designating our National Day as La Fête de la St-Jean-Baptiste. Nobody has been paying attention to the religious dimension of that day since the 1960s. Strangely, Ottawa does not do the same for the National Acadian Day, which is Assumption Day. How odd! Only the most conservative members of the Catholic clergy of Québec and Ottawa still purposely denigrate the secular name. I also note that you have once more "vented" your political bias and hostility to the name Quebecers have chosen for their national day, without any sort of conflict, through their representatives elected in Parliament. Do you propose censorship? -- Mathieugp (talk) 12:57, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mathieu, let's not vituperate- Soulscanner is not proposing censorship. As it is, the question is not what name Quebecers as a whole have chosen, but what name is most recognizable to English-speakers, in Quebec and elsewhere.
As for self-designation, does not the fact that many continue to use "La St. Jean" indicate that it is not monolithic? That Quebecers by and large are happy with it being both the Fete Nationale and La St. Jean? This, of course, only speaks to French usage. Gabrielthursday (talk) 03:06, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I do not know how to state it more clearly than I did previously. The convention says, in a nutshell, if there is a choice to be made, "take what the greatest number of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity". It has already been clearly established that St. John the Baptiste Day, being, unlike St. Patrick's Day for example, known world wide as a celebration other than one which Quebecers have elected as their own national day. "La St-Jean", "La St-Jean-Baptiste" have remained in popular usage, will most likely remained so for a long time, but have not been the official designation since 1977. When the TV guy announces it, he says "La Fête nationale", when the people speak among themselves, they are as likely to use the current formal name as the old one. The French-language article deals with this undisputed and uncontroversial fact with a line saying: "La fête est souvent appelée la Saint Jean Baptiste ou la Saint Jean pour des raisons historiques."
The article on Assumption Day speaks of, well the Assumption of Mary and also notes that "Her feast day is Fête Nationale of the Acadians, of whom she is the patron saint." The article on the "National Acadian Day" deals with, well, the day of celebration of the Acadian nation created in 1881. According to what special reasoning should it be reversed for our national day? (which is actually older than that of the Acadians... ;-) -- Mathieugp (talk) 13:04, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did not take wiki news service. I did searches of the CBC and Google News archives. These are mainstream English news services, as prescribed by Wikipedia dispute resolution policies for naming conventions. I recommend you review these polices and do your own search of anglophone media. The other news services did not show enough hits to be conclusive when I searched them, but feel free to do your own search of anglophone news services. Until you do, these two stand as evidence to be weighted into the decision. --soulscanner (talk) 06:37, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a difference between Nativity of St. John the Baptist and Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day. One refers to religious observance, the other to the celebration of French Canadian culture and language. The google searches in English sources leave no ambiguity. The Fete nationale designated the official provincial observance of the latter. --soulscanner (talk) 06:37, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • The political ranting about the federal government indicates an acknowledgement that the federal government officially observes this day as a pan-Canadian celebration of francophone culture. Whether we like it or not is largely irrelevant. It indicates an official acknoledgement of the common usage in both Quebec and outside Canada. --soulscanner (talk) 06:37, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, no, there is no difference between the Nativity of St. John the Baptist and St. John the Baptiste Day, and Jour de la St-Jean-Baptiste is obviously the French equivalent. In 1834, the event, the novelty, was to designated June 24, day of St-Jean-Baptiste, as the national day of the people of Quebec, formerly known as Canada. Depending on the period, the religious dimension of the celebration was more or less underlined. The federal government does not officially observe this day. Surely you must be aware of the controversy that arose when Ottawa distributed calendars in which June 24 was not even marked as a holiday a few years back.
Factually incorrect also is the idea that there could be a pan-Canadian celebration of "francophone culture" on June 24. Francophone culture in Canada would have to include the Acadians, yet they do not observe June 24 because in 1881 they chose their own national day to be August 15. Even more nonsensical, "Pan-Canadian" ignores the fact that outside Quebec, Quebecers have settled important communities over a territory that was not at all limited to British North America during 1840-1930 period. -- Mathieugp (talk) 13:31, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Again, you are presenting your personal POV of what Saint Jean de Baptiste Day should be as fact. The fact is that the federal government and the vast majority of French Canadians all across Canada consider it to be a celebration of francophone or French Canadian culture, not a religious observation. This is demonstrated and confirmed by sources posted at the beginning of this discussion and needs to be respected. La Saint Jean is now largely a secularized holiday both in and outside Quebec, even though Catholic churches across Canada (including Quebec) and the U.S. continue to mark the event as a combination of both. It is simply a misrepresentation to say that the secularization of the holiday occurred only in Quebec. That secularization makes La Saint Jean largely distinct from the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist wherever you go. I've provided several links to federal government and sites in Ontario and other provinces that indicate this. --soulscanner (talk) 21:51, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I never said that out-of-Quebec celebrations was not secular. What are you talking about? Quebecers make up the overwhelming majority of those who celebrate June 24, their national holiday. I fail to see how anyone remotely interested in the truth could end up thinking that "the vast majority of French Canadians all across Canada consider it to be a celebration of francophone or French Canadian culture". By the way, "Saint Jean de Baptiste Day" does not exist. In French we would say "Saint Jean le Baptiste", which is word-for-word equivalent to "St. John the Baptiste". -- Mathieugp (talk) 01:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Scope of article and split possibilities[edit]

The scope of the article is laid out in the lead, and it includes celebrations all over North America.

The Fête nationale du Québec (English translation: Quebec National Holiday[1]) is an official holiday of the Canadian province of Quebec. It is also celebrated as a festival of French Canadian culture and called la Fête Saint-Jean-de-Baptiste or Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day in other Canadian provinces and in the United States.

This has been the case since at least 2004[13]

Although the holiday only has official status in Quebec, it is also celebrated by francophones in other Canadian provinces as a festival of French Canadian culture. In these contexts, it retains the name Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day.

There certainly needs to be a lot more material about celebrations outside Quebec, but the scope of the article is clear. The fact that the idea of a split has been suggested and rejected indicates that there is a consensus that the article refers to celebrations of francophone culture all across Canada, and that some wish to dissociate these common celebrations of the French fact in Canada. I think the lead succinctly does the job of disambiguating for now. I think we should focus on the more pressing need of renaming the article. The article also glosses over the fact that the holiday is refered to as Saint Jean Baptiste Day for Quebec as well. This is a glaring omission. --soulscanner (talk) 10:30, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is background info, just mentioning that the celebration also exists outside of Quebec. Two sentences out of a whole article. I'm not sure how you can read the article and construe from this that the scope of the article is Canada-wide. This would be like mentioning in the French Fete Nationale article that it is also celebrated abroad and then declaring the scope of the article is the worldwide celebration of the French Fete Nationale. Either you've seriously misjudged the proper scope of the article, or you're acting in bad faith by saying the scope is Canada-wide when in fact it isn't; I will gladly assume the former, as I hate assuming bad faith. However, please be aware that your position isn't really tenable to most objective readers of the article.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:26, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, the scope of the article is clear. The holiday, as a national holiday, comes from Quebec, is today an official national day in Quebec. In the 19th century, it was spread to out-of-Quebec regions by St-Jean-Baptiste societies wherever they were founded, be it in the States of New York, Maine, Vermont, Massachusetts, etc. or the province of Ontario. What I have rejected was splitting out-of-Quebec historical observances from the article on the observance in Quebec. Not only are we talking about the same traditional observance from 1834 to 1977, we are talking about the same institution being responsible for its organization in all the various localities inside and outside Quebec. -- Mathieugp (talk) 13:02, 8 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The Fete Natioanale can be understood to be within the scope of of Saint Jean Baptiste Day, a celebration of francophone culture in Canada and North America, including Quebec. Saint Jean Baptiste Day originated in Lower Canada to celebrate French Canadian culture, as Saint Patrick's Day originated in Ireland to celebrate the Irish culture.
Bastille Day is celebrated as the French national Holiday. Saint Patrick's Day is celebrated as the national holiday of Ireland. Saint Jean Baptiste Day has been declared the national holiday of Quebec. The government of Scotland has declared St. Andrew's Day the national day of Scotland. It's that simple. The national celebrations all fit withing the broader commemorative scope of the older and broader celebration. --soulscanner (talk) 04:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
As we've agreed that google seaches are inconclusive about common use of the designation for Saint Jean Baptiste Day, the dispute resolution process requires that we go to major English-speaking media outlets to determine common use. The CBC site shows four articles that use "Quebec's national holiday" compare to [14]. It only appears as a secondary decriptor of St.-Jean Baptiste Day:

The head of the main English rights lobby group in Quebec was removed from the St.-Jean Baptiste Day parade by Montreal police ... The night before in Quebec City, police fired tear gas at a large crowd of rowdy and drunk young people after a concert to mark Quebec's national holiday.[15]

Canada's national anthem was actually originally performed, in French, on Quebec's national holiday of St. Jean Baptiste.[16]

The 1990 Liberal leadership convention took place a day after the death of the Meech Lake Accord and a day before Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day, Quebec's national holiday[17]

The other is a comment on a blog. So in the rare case that it is used in the English media, "Quebec's national holiday" appears as a qualifier for Saint Jean Baptiste Day. This indicates that the Fete Nationale falls within the broader historical and cultural scope of the holiday.
--soulscanner (talk) 04:12, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Let's also note that the same site has 67 references for "Fete Nationale" in English, and in fact, "Quebec's National Holiday" returns 24, not 4 hits.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:27, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Read all of the search details. Click on "repeat the search with the omitted results included." at the bottom of the original search page and you'll see the remaining 19 hits are duplicates. Also, of the 5 articles displayed, one is a duplicate. We need to be thorough in our investigation here, and not misrepresent the search results. --soulscanner (talk) 06:59, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Small point, but for a holiday that has substantially changed in tone and significance over time, should we not use the more inclusive term? After all, it was not the Fete Nationale until 1977. Fete Nationale isn't a particularly good term to use for half the article by this measure.
I'd suggest that the ideal structure for the article would be under the title SJBD then sections on Origins (eliminating midsommer references, including Duvernay); Development; Fete Nationale (current practice in Quebec); Celebrations outside Quebec. Gabrielthursday (talk) 09:31, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I would think it would be preferable to use the current name of the celebration (current as of 1977) rather than its former, historical name. This is, again, taking into consideration that the article hardly speaks of the celebrations outside of Quebec.--Ramdrake (talk) 12:31, 9 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ramdrake, if that were the only consideration, I'd agree with you that the current name should be preferred. But the fact that the current name was not used to describe the celebration that much of the article deals with does have weight, and I think it shifts the balance. As an aside, I suspect that the english "Quebec's National Holiday" is principally used within Quebec. Even when dealing with the Quebec celebration, I usually see and hear SJBD out here on the west coast of Canada. In fact, I can't say I've ever heard otherwise till now. Am I wrong in thinking that the usage of QNH is more geographically concentrated around Quebec, while SJBD is more widespread?
While the article currently is lacking in content dealing with celebrations outside Quebec, the scope of the article definitely includes it, and consideration should be given in titling the article to that fact. Gabrielthursday (talk) 02:58, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's clear that the historical designation pre-1977 is Saint Jean Baptiste Day, which was and remains a pan-Canadian celebration of French Canadian and now francophone culture. This continues to be celebrated, and the only difference is the official recognition by the provincial government of Quebec. It's still the same holiday whether or not the provincial government passes laws on the holiday or not. --soulscanner (talk) 07:07, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Part of the issue is, it's not really an observed holiday anywhere in North America but in Quebec.--Ramdrake (talk) 11:44, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It was never a pan-Canadian celebration. This is unfounded. It was a pan-Wherever-the-Quebec-diaspora-went celebration, which is not unlike the Irish. Only, Ireland was never arbitrarily renamed by Westminster, thus creating a confusion in the mind of many people. It is indeed the same national day, celebrated on the same Christian day of St. John the Baptist, from 1834 up until now, but the homeland of that people was renamed, and the people in it took a while to give up a name, Canada, that no longer referred to them by referred to all the peoples of British North America in a general sense and English-speaking Canadians in a more specific sense. When the national day took the official designation of Quebec's Fête nationale/National Holiday, was cleared an old confusion between the religious day and the national day as well as a confusion as to the territory of the nation being celebrated on that day. -- Mathieugp (talk) 13:45, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It was never a pan-Canadian celebration. This is unfounded. It was a pan-Wherever-the-Quebec-diaspora-went celebration This is a distinction without a difference. Moreover, the Quebec diaspora does not view itself as a Quebec diaspora, but as French-Canadians and Franco-Americans. Indeed, many of the communities that now celebrate SJBD left Quebec before it became a national celebration. They, by and large, adopted SJBD as a celebration of, indeed, a nation, but that of the French nation in the Americas, and particularly in Canada, rather than the nation of Quebec. Also, what "old confusion between the religious day and the national day"? The religious holiday was celebrated and was a national celebration because St. John the Baptist was their patron saint. These meanings reinforced each other, rather than being a confusion.
At any rate, I hardly see how this affects the fact that it is SJBD outside Quebec, it was SJBD prior to 1977, and it is commonly called SJBD in Quebec today. Moreover, I've suggested that SJBD has a broader dispersion outside Quebec than QNH, and so is recognizable to more English-speakers even if QNH is more common among English-speakers in Quebec. I don't think anyone has challenged this view.
While I have no intention of forestalling the debate, I am inclined to move the article to SJBD. We're agreed that the current name is poor, and that the article ought to be moved. The vote is currently 6-3, though the enthusiasm of the various sides is more equal. Gabrielthursday (talk) 21:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please be aware that 6-3 is by no means a consensus. Maybe a RfC could bring in more outside opinions. It would be pointless to move the article anywhere without a consensus. Also, issues of Wikipedia policies (WP:NAME and WP:NCON) have been invoked which can supersede local consensus anyway.--Ramdrake (talk) 23:31, 13 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Gabrielthursday wrote: "Quebec diaspora does not view itself as a Quebec diaspora, but as French-Canadians and Franco-Americans."? What? Where did you get this idea? Do you have a source? As a person who has met many Franco-Americans, and even organized conferences of two of their community leaders in Montreal a few months ago, I can assure you they know the origins of their ancestors. During the mass emigration to the USA, June 24 was already our people's national day. What is different is that in 1977 it became, most formally, a secular statutory public holiday, funded by public money. Obviously, the Quebec Parliament had no way to do the same outside Quebec's borders.
"These meanings reinforced each other, rather than being a confusion." That certainly is what the Catholic Church believed, but future generations (post-WWII) disagreed strongly, and it was always an area of dispute between liberal nationalists and conservative ones for most of our history. Post-WW II generations believe that there should not be religious dividing line between Catholic and non-Catholic Quebecers. So all national institutions were secularized gradually when the movement became very strong in the 1960s and 1970s. They also believed that native language should not be a dividing line, so French was declared the official language of Quebec and public efforts to have non-francophone Quebecers learn and ultimately adopt French as a second language started.
Maybe we should move on to RfC as suggested by Ramdrake?-- Mathieugp (talk) 00:12, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm happy to move on to a RfC. In response to Mathieu, of course French Canadians are aware their ancestors came from Quebec. However, their identity is not as misplaced Quebeckers, but as members of the larger French-Canadian nation. (And Franco-Americans, mutatis mutandi).
As for the religious/national question, I don't see how the desire to secularize and broaden the celebration detracts from the reinforcement of the two aspects of the holiday. Gabrielthursday (talk) 05:09, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Their identity is not as "misplaced" Quebecers of course. The out-of-Ireland Irish didn't think they were misplaced, they had left unbearable social conditions created by the policy of the government of England. There would have been a lot of them returning home if it had been possible at all. Returning home, or returning to the country of their ancestors occurred quite often in the case of Quebecers. In the 1970s, if they knew their history, which was rather rare, they thought of themselves as a people formerly known as the Canadians who came to rebaptize themselves Quebecers after going through a confusing period during which they were a people baring the name of a place that no longer existed but under the name of Quebec, while the original name of it was being used (since 1867) to designate a federation of British American provinces, which included the first Canada as one of its provinces. While Quebecers in general were quasi-unanimous in embracing the change that gave them a territory of their own they could identify to, the diaspora members started to identify as Francophone minorities of the Province of State they were presently in (which makes sense). Not all nations go through something complicated like that. A group of humans with a distinct national personality cannot float around without any country forever. Ask the Jews. On top of that, a patriotic celebration without a patrie is pure non-sense. As for the secularization of our institutions, including our national day, it meant that religion was no longer a dividing line. Catholics of the world who believe and practise can think of St. John on June 24 all they wish, while the rest of us here celebrate with all humans who consider Quebecers their people and Quebec their home. Foreign friends are welcomed to join in of course. Of the political program defined by the Patriots who started the celebration of 1834 in the first place, we are today still missing the most important part: self-government. Sounds like a repetition of history to me. ;-) -- Mathieugp (talk) 13:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please, a discussion forum is not the place for posting personal manifestos. Please stay on topic and don't use the Talk page as a forum for discussing or promoting personal opinions on Quebec politics. There are other media for promoting personal political views. ;-) --soulscanner (talk) 16:33, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Request for Comment- Title of Article[edit]

  • Comment We need to summarize the main arguments on all sides. Anybody looking at this will not be able to follow the discussion. Much of it is circular, repetitive, or just plain off-topic political ranting. I don't have the time or mental energy to do this right now. A "Barnstar" from me will go to anyone who manages to do it fairly. It might be a good exercise to have the main participants summarize as fairly as possible the opposition's point of view (play devil's advocate). --soulscanner (talk) 02:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Order of celebrants[edit]

We can put Quebec first, but that will take a neutrality tag as it skews the POV of the article. I recommend removing this section and moving on. As it stands, there is no consensus on whether to put the emphasis on the French Canadian or Quebec nationalist aspects of the holiday. I suggest striving for a neutrality that describes the article as both, and explaining this conflict in he article.--soulscanner (talk) 16:21, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Let's see: there's about 10 million French-Canadians (only about 7 million of which still speak French) in existence worldwide, and of this number, about 7 million live in Canada, 6 million of which live in Quebec. In Quebec, June 24th is a statutory holiday, which it isn't anywhere else that French-Canadians live. Since Quebecers comprise the vast majority of French-Canadians, and since it is a statutory holiday in Quebec and it isn't anywhere else in North America, it's a matter of common sense and not Quebec nationalism that Quebec (or Quebecers) should be listed first, just like "Irish people" is listed first as observing St Patrick's, followed by "People of Irish ancestry".--Ramdrake (talk) 16:33, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed, 10 million French Canadians and 7 Million Quebecers. If we use population as an objective criteria, French Canadians are first. The 10 with this million French Canadians include 6 million French Canadians living in Quebec, so no one is left out. This itself shows the considerable overlap in the two groups.
Also, la Saint Jean is celebrated primarily by French Canadians even in Quebec, and only very few English-speaking Quebecers generally participate in the festivities. Quebec's 1 million English-speakers generally observe the holiday as another statutory holiday, like Christmas, Easter, Labor Day, or Thanksgiving, and do not participate in the organized festivities with the same fervor that French Canadians do. Certainly, organizers occasionally say anglophones are welcome in the English press, and they probably are, but these efforts are largely unsuccessful, for whatever reason. That is a simple fact. --soulscanner (talk) 19:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This may be your POV on it, but I'd like to see your sources. It so happens that every single Anglo-Quebecer I know of (I know many) does celebrate June 24th one way or another.--Ramdrake (talk) 20:07, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, and every single francophone I know celebrates Canada Day in one way or another. It's the same with any statutory holiday. --soulscanner (talk) 23:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Straw poll[edit]

Given the statements above, I'd like a straw poll: Should French-Canadians or Quebecers legitimately be listed first as observants of June 24th?

  • Quebecers as per reasoning above.--Ramdrake (talk) 16:37, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quebecers obviously. I cannot believe how it could rationally be argued that Quebecers not be the main body of people listed as celebrating Quebec's National Holiday. After Quebecers, it makes sense to list the main minority groups in territories outside Quebec. soulscanner appears to mix up the subject of the article with NPOV issues. A Quebec subject is where you write about Quebec-related realities, derived from the Quebec context. A Canadian subject is where you write about Canadian-relate realities, derived from the Canadian context. It is a change of focus, not a matter of NPOV as NPOV is understood in Wikipedia. Neutrality in POV is not to apply the Canadian perspective to every Quebec-centric article, nor is it to artificially create conflicts by making two levels of focus clash inside of them. If it were so, then common sens dictates that neutrality would be to do the same in the opposite direction as well, that is, to apply the Quebec perspective to every Canadian-centric article, or to create conflicts by making two levels of focus clash inside of them. -- Mathieugp (talk) 17:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Remove List A straw poll won't settle anything. It will just break down as the previous poll on renaming the page, which is really about whether the article should focus on whether the holiday is a French Canadian one (from the historical and pan-Canadian prespective) or a Quebec one (Quebec nationalist perspective); according to Wikipedia NPOV policies, both these perspectives should be explained neutrally and considered equally valid. A NPOV list is not going to happen unless we use a neutral criteria, such as census population statistics, to draw up such a list. Considering the POV pushing occuring here, that is not going to happen. Given the heavily politicized nature of the debate, I recommend removing this list as it is contentious and probably cannot be done in a NPOV fashion. I'm willing to leave it as is with the NPOV tag. That's what I have to say for now, as saying anymore will likely violate discussion criteria. --soulscanner (talk) 19:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • neither or both* First of all this is my first contribution so I hope you will forgive any mistakes in form. I am a French Canadian living in Quebec. The title seems ultimately of little importance to the Quebec citizens as we will recognize it either way. Thus, I think the best (and most neutral) way of approaching this is to look for references to the holiday that come from outside Canada. How do they call the holiday if they speak of it in Japanese newspapers? Or Brazilian newspapers? Another option it seems to me is to include BOTH names : St-John Baptist's day (Quebec and French-Canadian Holiday). The article could then be divided into these two sub-categories if there is cause to do so. Choosing either one over the other would tend to give the impression of one group being favored over the other. Aramis magic (talk) 21:39, 29 July 2008
Hello Aramis magic. Please catch up on the debate by reading the discussions above. Of all options, having both names in the title is the only one we all agreed cannot be chosen. :-) -- Mathieugp (talk) 22:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Continued discussion[edit]

What heavily politicized nature of the debate? If it were not for your desperate attempt at pushing a Canadian nationalist POV inside the very name and intro paragraphs of this article, who on this Earth would be politicizing anything? Should I go to Canada Day and write in the lead paragraph that in Quebec half of Montreal is busy moving their brother-in-law on July 1st, and also that for the past few years people here have been complaining about the exaggerated share of federal expenses Quebec gets to promote this rather unpopular celebration? Because all that could easily be substantiated with verifiable facts and referenced with online sources. Why didn't I try to embarrass all good Canadian patriots in this way over the past years I have been contributing to Wikipedia? Because I respect the NPOV policy. Because I would find it unfair to go and embarrass my neighbours in this way. Because that would make the article a battleground for silly disputes and the article would not be a good source of information for people interested in facts about Canada. Because Moving Day deserves to be covered in its own article, which happens to be the case. Because the question of federal spendings in Quebec belongs to Sponsorship Scandal or something similar. Because if I did, I would be acting childishly and give myself a bad reputation would I? Worst, I would not be proud of myself and I would go against my own conscience, against my belief in universal justice and fairness, even towards people who like to step on my country's flag. -- Mathieugp (talk) 22:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are two POV's that need to be covered here ("a pan-Canadian pespective" and "Quebec nationalist pespective "). Both need to describe neutrally. --soulscanner (talk) 23:09, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Do you realize that even the names you choose for them isn't neutral? Also, since the "Quebec nationalist POV" is the one held by the greater number of people in this case (they representing two-thirds of "French-Canadians", NPOV requires each POV be presented in accordance to it real-world, which would mean the "Quebec Nationalist POV" should be given the upper hand in thi subject (since Quebecois represent the majority of the interested parties, namely French-Canadians).--Ramdrake (talk) 23:17, 29 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Aren't you forgetting the "United States perspective" and the global "North-American perspective"? The article, whose focus obviously is on Quebec, happens to mention all main out-of-Quebec minorities, those in the ROC, those in the USA, who also celebrate June 24 traditionally. You will find this is very similar to the article on Maple Syrup. It is produced in Canada and the USA. Quebec is the center of it, followed by Vermont, Maine, New York, parts of Ontario and the Maritimes. Obviously, a Pan-Canadian perspective would make sense in Maple Syrup in Canada, but not in the main Maple Syrup article, even less in Maple Syrup in Quebec or Maple Syrup in the United States. If you wish to write an article on St. John the Baptist Day in Canada or St. John the Baptist Day in the United States, you are free to do so. We could even have corresponding headers in Quebec's National Holiday, with "Main article" below each of them. -- Mathieugp (talk) 03:24, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think the focus should be on French Canadians - its their culture that is celebrated. Obviously that puts the focus on Quebec (most Quebecois are French Canadian), but without excluding other French Canadians in other provinces and the U.S. They all celebrate the same June 24 holiday across Canada and the U.S., with a common historical background and francophone culture, so there's no need for separate articles. I'll allow that this reflects a pan North American and Canadian perspective, but this one is 300 million and 30 million strong , respectively. Pushing this holiday as Quebec-only pushes the nationalist POV on this. In Quebec, many French Canadians hold both perspectives. They are not neccessarily contradictory. Quebec is part of Canada and North America. This year's festivities even explicitly celebrated 400 years of French in North America, not just Quebec. That includes all French Canadians, in Quebec, other provinces, and the U.S.
My solution, as both perspectives exist and are legitimate, is simply to avoid lists that order things in hierarchies, and explain controversies from both perspectives in the text. That basically reflects wikipedia policies.
Anyways, I've said my peace. We;'ve ben through this before. This list is disputed as long as it stays, so the tag will stay until the list is removed or some objective criteria (such as census data) is used to order them. If you have any new proposals, I'll gladly discuss them. I'm not repeating my points again, edit warring on the order of who celebrates the holiday, or responding to arguments involving Maple Syrup. ;-) Life's too short for that. --soulscanner (talk) 04:47, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
PS I've moved the discussion down here so as not to drown out the contributions of others and discourage others from participating in the poll. It's getting long again. --soulscanner (talk) 04:55, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Wow. I think you should be hired by the St-Jean-Baptiste Society. They would like your enthusiasm for French North America. And where do you get the idea that the article pushes the Quebec-only "nationalist POV"?
1) in Quebec, the celebration is about Quebec and Quebecers, not about French Canadians, French Americans or French North Americans. We have other festivals for that. It is a national holiday, and is celebrating the nation, and that includes its territory. The 2007 edition of the Fête nationale was about celebrating the successes of Quebecers abroad. The 2006 edition was about Quebec cinema. 2005 about our signers and musicians. 2004 was about interethnic solidarity among Quebecers. 2003 was about the international year of water. 2002 about the diversity of our regions. 2001 about bridging generations. 2000 about remembering the old and preparing the new millenia. 1999 was mostly about having the country in our hearts. 1998 about the St-Laurent. etc. etc. This isn't pushing a "nationalist POV": It is describing how things are now and have been for decades.
2) The subject of the article is the Fête nationale du Québec/Quebec's National Holiday. If you wish for further details on St-John the Baptiste Day as it used to be celebrated in the 1920s, then you can improve the section about it. There is a lot that can be improved in terms of historical insight. The SSJB would love that.
3) If you wish for more details about contemporary out-of-Quebec celebrations, go ahead and do the research for it. I have no intention of blocking, as you do, the general improvement of the article. Common sense dictates not to censor the reality of Quebec to make it more compatible with Canadian nationalism, not to exaggerate the importance of the contemporary celebration by our diaspora minorities in the ROC, not to ignore the comparable celebrations in the USA. I am absolutely certain that a neutral arbitration would recognize the reasonableness of such a coverage of the subject. -- Mathieugp (talk) 13:39, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1) As I said, it is primarily a celebration of French in North America, always has been,and always will be. If you can find evidence that they ever celebrated the presence of English in Quebec, please do the research and find it. I'd love to see it.
2) A full section is entitled Saint Jean Baptiste Day,so that pretty much conntradicts every thing you say. The Saint Jean de Baptiste is synononymous with Fete Nationale in Quebec the same way Bastille Day is synonymous with Fete Nationale in France or Independence Day is synonymous with the 4th of July in the U.S..
3) I'll gladly add material on celebrations held all across North America. --soulscanner (talk) 23:40, 30 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1) Do you have evidence that Canada Day ever celebrated the presence of a French-speaking nation of Quebec inside Canada? I have evidence that at the last June 24, the big Montreal show had hip hop band Loco Locass singing along with Algonquin Samian and anglophone Paul Cargnello[18]. We are already celebrating the long list of our English-speaking patriots, together with the lot of them, on a special holiday in May of each year. I would personally vote for renaming rue Amherst to rue Edmund-Bailey O'Callaghan, trade Nelson's Column in Vieux-Montréal for one dedicated to the first president of the Republic of Lower Canada, Robert Nelson, a son of Lower Canada. But it may not come before independence. :-)
2) What? There already is such a section in the article right now. It has been standing there in the article for years. Surely you must have noticed the chronological evolution: first there was a pagan celebration, then it was Christianized, then, much later, in 1834, on another continent, some of our leading patriots made it a national day, the tradition was set from then on and brought wherever there were chapters of the SSJB society. Then it became a legal holiday in Quebec in 1925, and finally became a statutory public holiday officially funded by State in 1977. Nobody has ever said it was a different day, but the sources tell us that the meaning of it changed a lot, especially since the secularization of the event that opened it up to all our citizens. Did you even bother to read the article?
3) Good. You may wish to contribute what you find to my drafts, or my more advanced brouillons as well. A whole series of articles are coming. :-) -- Mathieugp (talk) 04:33, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1. I didn't ask if anglophones celebrated French culture on Saint Jean. Certainly, anglophones celebrate francophone culture on Saint Jean Baptiste Day. Why shouldn't they? Most of their neighbors are French Canadian. They're happy they're there. I'm asking if francophones celebrate anglophone culture on la Saint Jean? Do they celbrate the culture of all Quebecers? Do they celebrate the arrival of anglophones in 1760 like they celebrate the arrival of francophones in 1608? Clearly not. The Fete nationale is a day for everyone to celebrate francophone culture. Nothing wrong with that. --soulscanner (talk) 07:30, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
2. You said this article was not about Saint Jean Baptiste Day. It clearly is.
3. Okay. --soulscanner (talk) 07:16, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1. Your concluding that because Quebecers do not celebrate the Conquest of their country by the British crown in 1760, the holiday's celebration is about "francophone culture" is completely irrational. Do the English celebrate the Norman Conquest, the remnants of French culture in England on their national day? This is a national holiday, not a bi-national holiday. Quebecers, while diverse in origins, while diverse in the native languages they speak, share a common public or civic language, which is the official language of Quebec. There is no "excluding" anyone there. The whole nation, including our anglophone national minority, has French as official language.
2. The article is about June 24, Quebec's National Holiday. The origins of this day, before it became supported by the State with all of today's pump, is a national day "created" in 1834 under a different name. Things get renamed all the time, usually to change the significance. Dominion Day->Canada Day, St. John the Baptiste Day->Quebec's National Holiday. I don't know how to further explain something so basic to grasp.
3. Maybe your days of positive contribution will soon start. Good. -- Mathieugp (talk) 13:28, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Attributing POV[edit]

I think the lead now correctly attributes and documents the two POVs on the holiday. It's important that the article considers all relvant perspectives and POVs. --soulscanner (talk) 10:52, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The lead now not only creates a confusion, it uses non-neutral language. As if it would have been neutral to push the same kind of nonsense the other way around:
"According to the Quebec government, the day celebrates the Quebec nation. Canadian nationalists promote the old ethnic meaning the holiday had when it was understood as the national day of a people without a political name and well-defined territory."
This is literally as far into non-neutral territory as you can get, and soulscanner says that it "correctly attributes and documents the two POVs on the holiday". It is time to go to arbitration. -- Mathieugp (talk) 13:39, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mathieu, I did what I could to make the POV more neutral from Soulscanner's version. If it's still not sufficiently neutral, please be WP:BOLD.--Ramdrake (talk) 13:43, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Historical and contemporary out-of-Quebec celebrations[edit]

I found a pretty good English-language source here: [19]. This is by the Maine Historical Society. Also, Ontarian francophones whose ancestors were from Quebec want a statutory holiday (no work) in Ontario too. [20]. This site claims to be organizing the biggest St-Jean in Ontario: [21] They are subsidized by us: [22] through the Programme d'appui à la francophonie canadienne . -- Mathieugp (talk) 15:50, 31 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming, finally?[edit]

So can we just rename it to "National Holiday of Quebec" as per its most official and legal name, or not? I noticed that Soulscanner seems to have vanished from Wikipedia after July 31st, so a priori there is no reason to think this move could be controversial in itself now. -- Mathieugp (talk) 13:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sure. Anything over a redundant title.--Boffob (talk) 14:21, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Saint Jean Baptiste Day is the most commonly used name in English. WP:NC(CN). DoubleBlue (Talk) 15:00, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's actually quite debatable, as seen in the previous discussion, but it is also a valid name under the naming conventions.--Boffob (talk) 16:33, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The reasons why "Saint Jean Baptiste Day", "St. Jean-Baptiste Day", "St. John the Baptiste Day", or other variants, is not an adequate (though valid) name were made clear and simple:
1) it is too general. As a Christian holiday, June 24 is presently covered at Nativity of St. John the Baptist. June 24, as the national holiday of Quebec created in 1834, cannot bare that name without creating confusion. The intro line could mention, as does the French article, that "la St-Jean" or "la St-Jean-Baptiste" remains a popular way to call the day.
2) it is not the official name of the day as per the law making it a legal and paid non-working day to all Quebecers. The national day was purposely secularized, .i.e., dissociated from the Catholic celebration of St. John, about 30 years ago. It would make no sense to have the French article reflect the current reality of Quebec's national day (through the properly named Fête nationale du Québec) while in English it is three decades behind. -- Mathieugp (talk) 06:21, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This article is not about the Nativity of St. John the Baptist and such an article would never be entitled Saint Jean Baptiste Day. This is the English Wikipedia and the article should be at the most common name for the holiday in English which continues to be Saint Jean Baptiste Day, regardless of the Quebec government's wishes. DoubleBlue (Talk) 07:03, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
1) Actually, it is commonly called "St. John's Day". "Saint-Jean" -> "St. John." Most English speakers do not know "Saint-Jean", for the same reason you and I do not know how "St. John" is called in Norwegian or Swedish.
2) The Google tests had demonstrated quite clearly that both "Saint Jean Baptiste Day" and "Quebec's National Holiday" were both frequent, with the second coming ahead by a little. But it was not a good reason to pick either one. No solid argument can follow from frequency of use since they are both frequently used. There is no proof to support the assertion that "the most common name for the holiday in English" is either one.
3) It is not the "Quebec government's wishes", (this would not be a good and neutral reason in any case to "fight it off" unless hopelessly biased) it is the wishes of the elected representatives of the people of Quebec assembled in the Parliament of Quebec, passing a law, a law that remained in force despite multiple changes from PQ to PLQ back and forth over the course of many decades. Wishes which are also those of the civil society organizing the event every year, the volunteers, the artists, not to mention the crowds of people who attend the public shows, etc. -- Mathieugp (talk) 17:26, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  1. That was my point, though I did not spell out why. Since in English it is St. John, the only article that would ever be at Saint Jean Baptiste Day, with its mixture of French and English, is the Canadian holiday.
  2. Google hits are not a reliable measure for the use of phrases. Sources soulscanner linked to above are better. It is, however, of interest. A close scrutiny of ghits shows that "Quebec's National Holiday" is often used in an explanatory way rather than as the name of the holiday.
  3. Okay, This is the English Wikipedia and the article should be at the most common name for the holiday in English which continues to be Saint Jean Baptiste Day, regardless of the wishes of the representatives of the voters for Quebec's National Assembly. DoubleBlue (Talk) 00:24, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, a new title is necessary. We're all agreed on that. But some issues-
  1. The legal name is not "National Holiday of Quebec" but rather "The National Holiday". Take a look at the statute. Therefore, if we opt for this option I would suggest "National Holiday (Quebec)". "National Holiday of Quebec" may be used, but it is not the official name.
  2. English-speakers always say "Saint-Jean Baptiste Day" and never use the translation "Saint John the Baptist Day" when referring to the French-Canadian celebration.
  3. While "National Holiday (Quebec)" may be accurate within Quebec, it is manifestly inaccurate when referring to the celebration outside Quebec, which this article is also concerned with (though in a small way).
  4. I would support an immediate move to "National Holiday (Quebec)" on the basis that the move be entirely without prejudice- i.e. that that name not be granted any presumption in further discussions about the proper title of this article. To be absolutely clear, that means that a majority, rather than consensus would be able to move the title to Saint-Jean Baptiste Day if we desire an immediate move to solve the absurd situation of the current title. Gabrielthursday (talk) 01:50, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your proposition ("National Holiday (Quebec)") is compatible with common sense and has precedents here: Category:National days. Consequently, I support it. We should put it to vote. -- Mathieugp (talk) 13:04, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Soulscanner will be back; this is his typical pattern of arriving, making a lengthy debate out of something, and then disappearing before it is resolved. Regardless, may I suggest, in order to use the English term for the holiday but distinguish it from another, using Saint Jean Baptiste Day (Quebec) as a title? --G2bambino (talk) 01:45, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is similar to my original suggestion in an earlier section until I recognised that no where else is there a day named with that peculiar mixture of French "Saint Jean Baptiste" and English "Day" so a disambiguator is wholly unnecessary. DoubleBlue (Talk) 02:51, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I hate to point out the obvious, but "Saint Jean Baptiste" is the French version of St John The Baptist, and therefore it is arguable whether "Saint Jean Baptiste Day" is proper English, despite its being used in Canada.--Ramdrake (talk) 13:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What disputed view?[edit]

I am not aware that the pagan origins of the June 24 celebrations in Europe are under dispute. Sources that show that there is a dispute on this question are going to be needed. Not in this article however, rather in the Midsummer article. -- Mathieugp (talk) 18:49, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Check out Nativity of St. John the Baptist, particularly the date section. A rather strong debunking. I'll try and do some editing at Midsummer to reflect the debate. As for this article, however, I think it makes sense to start at the undisputed close origin, rather than a highly disputed distant origin. Any thoughts on a "without-prejudice" move? I'd obviously be happy with a "without-prejudice" move to either "Saint-Jean-Baptiste Day" or "National Holiday (Quebec)". Best, Gabrielthursday (talk) 19:39, 2 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure if these distant pagan origins (whether real or imagined) are relevant to this article anyway. It was picked because John the Baptist is a patron saint of Quebec (another choice would have been Saint Anne's feast or whatever it is, July 26 if I recall). That the date coincides with other celebrations (of the summer solstice or otherwise) elsewhere or in history is pretty much moot.--Boffob (talk) 01:20, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the origins of the religious feast have nothing to do with the Saint Jean Baptiste Day in Canada. All that info belongs in the background articles Nativity of St. John the Baptist and Midsummer. DoubleBlue (Talk) 01:34, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Rather strong debunking? All statements pertaining to the subject are outsourced on both Midsummer and Nativity of St. John the Baptist. I do not see how any person even remotely interested in objectivity could believe either when both are outsourced. I was personally unaware that the pagan origins were disputed by anyone.
The sources of the historical information that I added, including the pagan origins, are listed in the references. They are:
1. RDAQ. "La Saint-Jean-Baptiste", in the site of the Réseau des services d'archives du Québec, 2001
2. Nadeau, Claude, "Histoire de la fête nationale des Québécois : la Saint-Jean Baptiste", in Claudenadeau.net, 1998 (her personal Web site)
Both these sources list credible references. It was sufficient for me to consider worth mentioning.
The lighting of fires was part of the pagan tradition. That appears to be a fact. It is also a fact that this tradition kept on living in France and other countries of Europe. Before the French Revolution, the Christian King of France himself would light the fire. While the origin of Quebec's National Holiday is 1834, the date of the calendar that was chosen is explained by an already established tradition brought over from Europe. People still light fires on June 24 in Quebec. Some people are going to want to know where it comes from. -- Mathieugp (talk) 03:43, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Mathieu, I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "outsourcing". My point is that while La St-Jean is clearly derived from the religious festival of the Nativity of St. John the Baptist, it doesn't appear that the Saint John celebration is in any way derived from Midsummer festivities. Certainly, it appears that certain traditions involved in Midsummer celebrations were transferred to (or borrowed by) the feast of the Nativity of Saint John, probably including the bonfires. But that seems pretty limited, and best mentioned, if at all, in direct connection with the lighting of fires. Gabrielthursday (talk) 06:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I wrote "unsourced", but then Firefox's spelling module underline the word as misspelled. I took the spelling it suggested me ("outsourced") without realizing it was a different word. Sorry. Please read Wikipedia:No original research and don't undo what I wrote based on unsourced material written in Wikipedia itself. If you cannot read the French-language sources I posted, just tell me, and I'll translated the relevant passages that state the pagan origins of the June 24th celebration as fact. If these facts are disputed, then there must be other sources that can be quoted, showing the scientific debate on the topic. Until then, it is only rational to consider the pagan origin as properly sourced and worth keeping. -- Mathieugp (talk) 15:16, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding spelling, quite understandable. I actually went looking for a source, and found a few, including this: [23]. As an aside, when information is missing a reference, it's not necessarily OR; it may just be lacking an appropriate reference. Again, I don't have any difficulty with noting the pagan origins of certain traditions surrounding the Fete National/St-Jean-Baptiste Day; but it definitely appears at least disputed that the pagan festival of Midsummer is in any way the origin of the Christian feast of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist, and thereby the Fete National.
I note the support of User:Boffob and User:DoubleBlue for this change, which was the basis for my revert.
As for the the French language references, I'm afraid the problem isn't merely my French. The first reference goes to what appears to be a bibliography and the second link appears to be dead at the moment. Regardless, I gather that it's a common perception that the Christian Church co-opted the Midsummer festival by placing the feast of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist more or less on top of it. My opinion is that this is decidedly wrong, but the place for the debate is at the Midsummer article, rather than here. Gabrielthursday (talk) 18:25, 3 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the CatholicCulture.org source, it should be used to dispute the contradictory statements at the Midsummer article, in a proper NPOV way. Removing the other information is not the way to do it. Regarding the French-language references, both links work at the moment for me. The Réseau des services d'archives du Québec Web site is bad, and it is not possible to link both the navigation frame and the desired article page: either you link the frame, and leave it up to visitors to choose the calendar event they want to read about, or you link to the article page, but outside of its frame. See what I mean by clicking here.
So far, nothing has been shown that goes against attributing pagan origins to the June 24 tradition. Precisely why the Catholic Church implanted the feast of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist on that day is another question entirely, one which may be disputed for a good reason, I do not know. If you feel that the phrasing or the History section of the article leads readers to think that "the pagan festival of Midsummer is in [some] way the origin of the Christian feast of the Nativity of Saint John the Baptist", you can try to rewrite it so as to suggest rather that one succeeded the other, without erasing it completely (which is what I was trying to say). -- Mathieugp (talk) 00:31, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It would seem that we are not as far apart as it would appear. Thanks for the new link, I found what you were pointing to; the other link I managed to get through to as well. I'll go ahead and edit, and perhaps you will be so kind as to let me know your opinion. Any thoughts on moving the title? Gabrielthursday (talk) 01:24, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I thought that you were going to submit "National Holiday (Quebec)" to the vote. Maybe you were waiting for me to do it? :-) -- Mathieugp (talk) 13:56, 4 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

French-isms[edit]

Although there is no official Enlish name for anything in Québec, thanks to Bill 101, this article is in english and should be easy for english speaking people to read and understand. It is no different than the French tradition of renaming everything into french names. Why do french call London Londres? It is not the official name of the city, it's the "French" official name of the city. The correct given name in the language of origin is included as a reference, but as a standard english names have been used. We say Pekin/Beijing (depending on translation/pronunciation), not 北京. --Mrboire (talk) 15:50, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If we are going to translate foreign names or expressions or terminology into English, lets start using English grammar, not French. In English we generaly do not say the something of someone, we have a possessif ('s) to show that relationship. Example, in French we say La poutine de Jean, but in English it's not The poutine of John, it's John's poutine. Also according to the Quebec Government website, by the way it is written by someone who does not speak english either, it is refered to as the National Holiday in Quebec, which simply means the National Holiday, that happens in the province of Quebec, not The National Holiday of Quebec. There are no official English names of anything in Quebec, you can thank the "Charter of the French Language" (in reality it should be refered to as the French Language Charter). Please do not impose foreign grammar onto another language, and have a good knowledge of the language before editing wikipedia pages. --Never give up! Never surrender! (talk) 03:56, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hey Mrboire. I admire how much you defend your language (it seems rare people defending English), as I defend French language in real life and on the French-language Wikipedia. I'm not a linguist but the "French syntax" is usually used in English to accentuate the French origin of something. You may know that English seems to want to translate everything in English (Centre Bell → Bell Centre; Colisée Pepsi → Pepsi Coliseum; Québec → Quebec; Forum de Montréal → Montreal Forum; Hydro-Québec → Hydro-Quebec; etc.), while French usually uses the English names (Melon Arena, Madison Square Garden, etc.). Anyway, I don't think it's related to this issue. In the case of a national holiday, the most "official form" should be used. It also should be the translation decided by the "owner". In this case, "National Holiday of Québec" (with the accent on the "e") should be used, as it is the official English name provided by the Government of Québec. It's not Wikipedia's role to translate event names. By the way, you always say "have a good knowledge of the language before editing wikipedia pages", but you should let people share information and culture with others. Don't you remember that you collaborate(d) to the French Wikipedia, and you are/were making a lot of mistakes? People just corrected them and did not ask you to stop editing pages in French. Wikipedia is a free encyclopedia and is encouraging everyone to collaborate, regardless of the language they want to use it. Keep defending your language, but try to open your mind and be proud of people who wants to learn your culture and your language. Sincerely, Jimmy Lavoietalk 22:05, 19 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I am not a linguist, but the only usage of "French syntax" that I have seen on a regular basis is in Quebec. BTW the examples you use for the English names of French things are examples of Quebec institutions, the others are American. I am simply trying to point out that we need to use the correct grammar for the language that we are writing in, English grammar on English wikipedia, French grammar on French wikipedia. Making a "typo" or a mistake spelling things is not the same. For example I admit, and have so since day one, that I forget to use accents as I have to switch keyboard layouts. My formal education is in Quebec-French, so I know the grammar rules, and I was raised by an English speaking mother then married an Englih speaking school teacher, and I have re-learned English grammar there. My point is the same in either case, One culture/Language should not impose it's grammar onto the other, if articles are written Quebec-Centric then people are not learning "my" language and culture. They are learning "your" view of "my" language and culture. ( I used "my" and "your" not as in you specifically or me specifically but as a generic term.) Sharing information is all fine, but get it correct so not to mis-inform others. As for names and ownership I have been myself been told the oposite on wikipedia, and you have been one of them. French people do not say London, but Londres, London belongs to the English so by your logic it should not be called Londres in French but London. You can't have it both ways. It is better for someone that has first hand knowledge of a subject to write an article about it, and there is nothing wrong with having some help to sure it reads right.--Never give up! Never surrender! (talk) 02:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Then, would you prefer "Quebec's National Holiday" (without accents, with a possessive 's)? I don't think "National Holiday (Quebec)" is a correct title and it is too much evasive. What do you think of that? Sincerely, Jimmy Lavoietalk 03:09, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The Holiday is called National Holiday (or at least that's what the Quebec government says it would be called if English namings were allowed.) , and it takes place in Quebec, there are other "National Holidays" for other countries and their articles can (and should) be named (or at least a redirect named) "National Holiday (Country/City/Etc...)" to keep a standard, just like Thanksgiving (United States) and Thanksgiving (Canada), or Flag days, (Flag Day (United States), Flag Day (Hong Kong)), Memorial Day (Memorial Day (Israel), Memorial Day (United States), Memorial_Day_(Newfoundland_and_Labrador)) and to help with ambiguities. I toyed with a few titles like National Holiday in Quebec (like on the gov website, but it didn't flow right and the in is not needed if Quebec is in "()" ), I did some comparaison shopping of other article names (Including holidays, and other events and everything) and found that Name of Event/Place/Person (Locality Recognised) was the best fit for all artilces. --Never give up! Never surrender! (talk) 11:47, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we'll keep that title. Sincerely, Jimmy Lavoietalk 12:01, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's always good.--Never give up! Never surrender! (talk) 12:15, 20 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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