Talk:Sarıkamış

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Need more references and pictures.--Murat (talk) 06:14, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Needs less fantasy, and less copyrighted pictures. You can't just take images from another website and use them in Wikipedia. Meowy 21:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I think the section about the battle is way too long considering that there is a separate entry for it. Meowy 21:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I kind of agree, I did not realize there was a seperate entry. I will revisit at some point, as even that article needs some fresh inputs.--Murat (talk) 05:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, I've had to remove part of your recent edit. "Alparslan and his armies invaded the Byzantine Castle City of Ani, Kars Castle, Allahü Ekber and Soğanlı Mountains on August,16 1064, thus beginning moslty uniterrupted Turkish presence in the area." Firstly, this is about Sarikamish, not Ani or Kars, so the text is off-topic. Secondly the "uninterupted" part is historically wrong anyway, what about the Shaddadids, and the Zakharids, and the Mongols. Some 200 years worth of interuption there. Meowy 16:59, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

You were wrong on both accounts. The added paragraph describes the region Alparslan conquered, which includes Sarikamis. It was probably not known with that name at the time, and not even sure when the town was first established. This was significant since these were the first Turkish incursions in the area which changed the fate of history as you know. Secondly, there is nothing wrong with the statement that this began a "mostly" uniterrupted Turkish "presence" in the area. I would like to see a proof of/reference for opposite. You arew elcome.--Murat (talk) 00:54, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

My reasons for removing that material are still justified - it was off topic and misleading. I have again removed it for those same reasons. A thing can't be 'mostly uninterupted' - it is either uninterupted or it isn't. Why not add some real information about Sarikamish today such as current population size, industries, etc? Meowy 19:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

How can history of Sarikamis have nothing to do with Sarikamis? Urartu and Roman and Russian conquests and past belong but Saltuk, Seljuk and Ottoman conquest does not belong? We are talking about events directly involving the place. What is the agenda here this time? Why were key historical sites removed? What is the criteria? You have no argument. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hudavendigar (talk • contribs) 11:18, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with Sarikamish because it has nothing to do with the history of Sarikamish. You are mentioning specific things that are to do with the history of Kars and Ani. Sarikamis, as a region or a town, did not exist then. What is your source evidence that Alparslan even went anywhere near what is now Sarikamish, let alone tread on the Soghanli mountains? Meowy 16:34, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

The fact is, the area was conquered by Seljuks at some point. In fact it was Alparslan, whose army was also at Manzikert. That a piece of interesting and relevant history. He conquered the area in general, including what is Sarikamis today and Allahuekber Mountains are mentioned specifically. Of course then came the Ottomans. Another piece of history of the place that is not superficial. If we are concerned with a place exactly as it looks today, then why bring up Urartus, and Romans and even Armenians. They would not recognize Sarikamis today either.--Murat (talk) 23:27, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

What sources do you have that says the territory that corresponds to modern Sarikamish was conquered by the Seljuks? Just because they captured Kars and Ani doesn't mean they ruled Sarikamish, or that there was anything substantial in Sarikamish they would want to control. The Seljuks came and left in what amounts to a blink of the eye in the overall historical timescale. It would not even be correct to assume that the general history of who controled Kars would be the same as that for Sarikamish because nothing seems to be known specifically for Sarikamish until the modern period (uness you can find a credible source that says something otherwise). The existence of so many Armenian monasteries in the hills around Sarikamish could suggest some sort of Armenian "mount Athos" was here and that the region was of some importance during medieval times - yet there are no records that I am aware of that mentions the history of any of them. There are also a large number of small castles in the region, especially NE of Karakurt, but nobody knows anything of their history, why they were built, who controlled them. Obviously Urartian and Armenian archeological sites in and around Sarikamish can be mentioned because they are physical objects and are mentioned in sources. Meowy 15:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

don't think it is needed to say "neighbors towns of Selim and Kağızman to East, Şenkaya and Horasan to West, Eleşkirt to South, Selim and Şenkaya to North", and it is inaccurate anyway in its present form since what you are talking about here are administrative districts, not towns. Also, where is "Ani river"? Sarikamish lies on a tributary of the Kars river. Meowy 16:42, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Maybe it can be more elgant, but neighboring towns is a good way to define location. So are the major geographical features and rivers and lakes etc. By all menas make corrections as required.--Murat (talk) 23:29, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

I made some corrections. If you can't say were that "Ani river" is (I don't see it marked on maps), I will remove that part. Meowy 15:03, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

I think Ani has different names locally.--Murat (talk) 18:33, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Here is what the local web site says about its rivers: "Aras Nehri, Kars Çayı, Zivin ve Keklik Dereleri". There is no Ani, and I can not recall at all how I got it. I wonder if Zivin is Ani. In any case, they are not all rivers of course, except for Aras.--Murat (talk) 19:19, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Murat, you can't use a posting on a message board as a source. Meowy 18:25, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

Armenia vs Russian Armenia

A recent minor edit was reversed where I had corrected "Enver entered through Armenia.." with "Russian Armenia". These regions were known as Russian or Eastern Armenia and Western Armenia in countless articles and documents, including Armenian sources. At the time the border where the Turkish assault took place was between the Ottoman and Russian Empires, two states. There was no Armenia or Turkey. I am at a loss why this minor edit was reversed with scant justification. I would like the reverting editor to offer a valid explanation. There were some minor grammatical corrections that were reverted also. Please explain. Thanks.