Talk:Second Amendment to the United States Constitution/Archive 15

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Re US v Walters

I was under the impression that the 1,000 foot gun ban around schools was struck down in US v Lopez. 141.154.72.56 (talk) 15:21, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The alleged crime in Walters took place in the Virgin Islands, which is not a state and therefore under the management of the feds. Per the Constitution, the fed have the power to manage nonstate US possessions, but Lopez probably still applies. The defense doesn't quote Lopez in the document referenced and may not even be aware of the case. Don't know if the current version of 922(q) is the same as the one used in Lopez, but the Supreme Court nullified the totality of that section of law per "§ 922(q) is invalid" when they made their ruling.

From Lopez

After respondent, then a 12th-grade student, carried a concealed handgun into his high school, he was charged with violating the Gun-Free School Zones Act of 1990, which forbids "any individual knowingly to possess a firearm at a place that [he] knows ... is a school zone," 18 U. S. C. § 922(q)(I)(A). The District Court denied his motion to dismiss the indictment, concluding that § 922(q) is a constitutional exercise of Congress' power to regulate activities in and affecting commerce. In reversing, the Court of Appeals held that, in light of what it characterized as insufficient congressional findings and legislative history, § 922(q) is invalid as beyond Congress' power under the Commerce Clause.

Held: The Act exceeds Congress' Commerce Clause authority. First, although this Court has upheld a wide variety of congressional Acts regulating intrastate economic activity that substantially affected interstate commerce, the possession of a gun in a local school zone is in no sense an economic activity that might, through repetition elsewhere, have such a substantial effect on interstate commerce. Section 922(q) is a criminal statute that by its terms has nothing to do with "commerce" or any sort of economic enterprise, however broadly those terms are defined. Nor is it an essential part of a larger regulation of economic activity, in which the regulatory scheme could be undercut unless the intrastate activity were regulated. It cannot, therefore, be sustained under the Court's cases upholding regulations of activities that arise out of or are connected with a commercial transaction, which, viewed in the aggregate, substantially affects interstate commerce. Second, § 922(q) contains no jurisdictional element that would ensure, through case-by-case inquiry, that the firearms possession in question has the requisite nexus with interstate commerce. Respondent was a local student at a local school; there is no indication that he had recently moved in interstate commerce, and there is no requirement that his possession of the firearm have any concrete tie to interstate commerce. To uphold the Government's contention that § 922(q) is justified because firearms possession in a local school zone does indeed substantially affect interstate commerce would require this Court to pile inference upon inference in a manner that would bid fair to convert congressional Commerce Clause141.154.72.56 (talk) 20:16, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The Congress repassed the Gun Free School Zones Act in 1996, but added a provision stating that it would only be in effect to the extent permissible by the Commerce Clause. Source SMP0328. (talk) 20:45, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

From what I have read of Lopez, the extent permissible is zero.141.154.72.56 (talk) 22:03, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

It would be permissible (1) if the crossing of State borders is involved, (2) the action occurs within an area under federal authority, but no State authority or (3) whenever the action "substantially affects" interstate commerce (quoting Lopez). SMP0328. (talk) 22:18, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

The following still sounds like zero to me. Section 922(q) is a criminal statute that by its terms has nothing to do with "commerce" or any sort of economic enterprise, however broadly those terms are defined.. I will however agree that there may be some substance to item 2 above, as the feds do have the power to manage nonstate US territories. However, there is still the issue of the Second Amendment ban on infringing the right to keep and bear arms, which applies to all US residents, whether they are inhabitants of one of the states or not.141.154.72.56 (talk) 23:11, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

An example of item 1 is the Mann Act. A recent example of item 3 is Gonzales v. Raich. As for the Second Amendment, that would be a very interesting case. SMP0328. (talk) 02:29, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Iffy examples a best and in at least one respect contradictory. Neither of your examples has to do with guns and a gun free school zone. Prostitution is at least a commercial activity, but rarely involves crossing state borders. It is also legal in Nevada. Gonzales and the harassment of those smoking pot under a medical prescription within States that allow it is garbage. Using the same reasoning for Gonzales the feds could harass prostitutes in Nevada.141.154.72.56 (talk) 04:40, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Those are not my opinion. I'm giving examples based on Supreme Court case law. SMP0328. (talk) 04:42, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

I just can't see how those examples apply to a gun free school zone. A purchaser and/or owner of a gun already in state has no interstate commerce issues, since he is not engaged in commerce. This is pretty much what the Supreme Court said on Lopez.141.154.72.56 (talk) 05:06, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Rights only apply to US "citizens" (not residents)(14A,Sec. 1). As to the issue of the 2A, Lopez simply held congress had misused its interstate commerce power, but without saying such law violated the 2A's restriction on them. The Preamble to the Bill of Rights, says its "restrictive clauses" were intended to "prevent misconstruction or abuse of its powers" to affect rights, the very thing section 922(q) attempted. The 2A's ban on infringing the right to keep and bear arms, applies exclusively to the federal government. (See Cruikshank, Presser, Miller, and now Heller.) (Truwik (talk) 16:59, 17 February 2009 (UTC))

"Some" rights (such as the right to vote) apply only to US Citizens. If you look at the later part of 14A Section 1 you will notice that the basic rights to life, liberty, property and equal protection under the law apply to ALL. By our reasoning if the Pope visited the US, you could go and kill him since he has no right to life, not being a US citizen. Still don't understand the basis for violating a 1,000 foot gun free zone around a school in this case, unless Walters was trying to sell one or more guns that he personally shipped in from another state in order to sell, with the transactions happening within 1,000 feet of a school. In Lopez the Supreme Court ruled that the a gun free zone was in excess of granted powers and did not fall under the Commerce Act. I will grant that since this case happened in the Virgin Islands that the feds, who were granted the authority to manage non-state territories have more power to regulate, but the Second Amendment prohibition still applies. If it applies to DC then it applies to the Virgin Islands.141.154.110.173 (talk) 01:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Constitutional rights apply to all people within any controlled by the federal government or any State or local government. As for the United States Virgin Islands, it is a non-State area that is, at least in the Constitutional sense, under the exclusive legislative authority of the Congress. Hence, Heller fully applies to it just as Heller applies to DC. SMP0328. (talk) 02:07, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Some rights, such as the right to vote or the right to keep arms for self defense, have been taken from many convicted felons currently in prison. Are they part of "all"? yes, you can be deprived of your rights, but ONLY though court action. Any law depriving you of your constitutionally protected rights is automatically illegal and therefore null and void. Anyone who votes to pass such a law is guilty of perjury of his oath of office. Perjury is a felony.141.154.110.173 (talk) 14:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Saul Cornell paid mouthpiece of the Joyce Foundation - POV bias issue

Per the wiki article on the Joyce Foundation, it engages in substantial gun control activies.

Per the following, Joyce Foundations activites include buying up whole issues of Law Journals and filling them with articles supporting gun control.

http://wasteofmyoxygen.wordpress.com/2008/10/08/the-joyce-foundations-attempt-to-abolish-the-second-amendment-with-the-help-of-barack-obama/

In 1999, midway through Obama’s tenure, the Joyce board voted to grant the Chicago-Kent Law Review $84,000, a staggering sum by law review standards. The Review promptly published an issue in which all articles attacked the individual right view of the Second Amendment.

In a breach of law review custom, Chicago-Kent let an “outsider” serve as editor; he was Carl Bogus, a faculty member of a different law school. Bogus had a unique distinction: he had been a director of Handgun Control Inc. (today’s Brady Campaign), and was on the advisory board of the Joyce-funded Violence Policy Center. Bogus solicited only articles hostile to the individual right view of the Second Amendment, offering authors $5,000 each. But word leaked out, and Prof. Randy Barnett of Boston University volunteered to write in defense of the individual right to arms. Bogus refused to allow him to write for the review, later explaining that “sometimes a more balanced debate is best served by an unbalanced symposium.” Prof. James Lindgren, a former Chicago-Kent faculty member, remembers that when Barnett sought an explanation he “was given conflicting reasons, but the opposition of the Joyce Foundation was one that surfaced at some time.” Joyce had bought a veto power over the review’s content.

Joyce Foundation apparently believed it held this power over the entire university. Glenn Reynolds later recalled that when he and two other professors were scheduled to discuss the Second Amendment on campus, Joyce’s staffers “objected strenuously” to their being allowed to speak, protesting that Joyce Foundation was being cheated by an “‘agenda of balance’ that was inconsistent with the Symposium’s purpose.” Joyce next bought up an issue of Fordham Law Review.

The plan worked smoothly. One court, in the course of ruling that there was no individual right to arms, cited the Chicago-Kent articles eight times. Then, in 2001, a federal Court of Appeals in Texas determined that the Second Amendment was an individual right.

The Joyce Foundation board (which still included Obama) responded by expanding its attack on the Second Amendment. Its next move came when Ohio State University announced it was establishing the “Second Amendment Research Center” as a think tank headed by anti-individual-right historian Saul Cornell. Joyce put up no less than $400,000 to bankroll its creation. The grant was awarded at the board’s December 2002 meeting, Obama’s last function as a Joyce director. In reporting the grant, the OSU magazine Making History made clear that the purpose was to influence a future Supreme Court case:

Since the activities of the Joye Foundation includes providing funds to other parties to be "paid mouthpieces" and push the Joyce Foundation party line and since Saul Cornell received such funds to buy the opinion of the "Second Amendment Research Center" he does no merit consideration as an unbiased source. The following article adds more detail to the Second Amendment Research Center.

http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/JoyceCornellHeller.pdf

Per the article "Ohio State understood that the money, and the Center, were meant to influence future Supreme Court rulings"

the following quote is also indicative of his being a "paid mouthpiece"

When I asked its director, Saul Cornell, in an email exchange if any participants in its acedemic programs could advocate the individual rights position, he responded that he would obtain sepeate funding to permit this to happen

Since the opinions of Mr. Cornell can obviously be bought I have no confidence that his opinions as cited in the Second Amendment article have not been bought and paid for, and skewed to reflect the wishes of his buyer.

Until such time as all references attributed to him are removed, I have a POV dispute with the article similar to pevious POV disputes with the NRA and Brady Campaign.141.154.110.178 (talk) 00:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

On the bright side, removing all material where Mr Cornell is cited will reduce the size of the article and should make Salty Boatr and nwlaw63 a bit happier. I am confident of their support to remove this material. ;-) 141.154.110.178 (talk) 00:29, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Are we talking about the same thing? I am referring to the book published by Oxford University Press, ISBN 978-0-19-514786-5, page 7. SaltyBoatr (talk) 01:39, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

All material means all material and includes all books and articles authored by him. 141.154.110.178 (talk) 02:11, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Please be aware that I am taking this position due to what I see as a Zero tolerance policy for biased material within this article. As an example of this Zero tolerane policy I cite the following fact. When researching the past history of this article I noticed that a link, not material within the article, but a simple LINK to NRA material was removed from the page due to what I believe to be POV bias issues. To confirm this removal was a bias issue would involve going through discussions on this page some two years old. I do not have the time nor inclinaton to do so but you must agree that removing LINK to NRA material SEEMS to have been some sort of bias issue. Again I am not talking about a link to material cited in the article, but a link similar to the current link on the side of the article to the various amendments and assorted Firearm legal topics. I believe that you will agree that any POV bias standard which prohibits a mere link to a biased organization includes the banning of any and all authors identified as having taken money to deliver a bought and paid for opinion. From the available evidence Saul Cornell is in fact just such an author.141.154.110.178 (talk) 02:29, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Have you read the Wikipedia policy on sourcing? And, bias? See WP:V and WP:NPOV. SaltyBoatr (talk) 05:25, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Please advise me on the difference between a biased opinion originating with the NRA and a biased opinion arising from a "bought and paid for mouthpiece" of the Joyce Foundation. I fail to see any.

BTW: Was I wrong to assume your support in deleting obviously biased material from the article?

BTW2: If you wish to use another book for source material Amazon ranks The Founders Second Amendment: Origins of the Right to Bear Arms by Halbrook as the #1 seller in its genre. It currently ranks as Book 2,243 in Amazon sales compared to Cornell book which comes in at 143,833. That's the paperback version from last year. Cornells hardcover from 2 years back ranks 517,331. Low numbers good, high numbers bad. As for reader ranking, Halbrook gets all 5's except for 1 4 while Cornell gets 5 5's a 4 and 4 1's. One of Cornells 5's was from the publisher so it doesn't count. The sales difference is even worse when you consider the fact that Holbrooks book is a hardcover and sells for almost twice the price of Cornells paperback. Makes me wonder if Cornell had a loss on the book and if the Joyce Foundation is picking up the tab.141.154.110.178 (talk) 06:10, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Halbrook is the NRA's outside counsel and his book's ranking was a part of a book bomb created by the gun rights community to raise its rankings. The scholarly reviews of Cornell's book have been excellent, but obviously not everyone agrees with the interpretation.

WP:V reqires the us of RELIABLE published source. Does anyone dispute that a "bought and paid for" opinion is not RELIABLE? If no one disputes I will take action sometime next week and delete UNRELIABLE material based on Saul Cornell and the Law Review articles bought and paid for by the Joyce Fondation. 141.154.14.50 (talk) 14:13, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Did you see in the WP:V policy that we are to favor third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy? Do you have an opinion whether or not the Oxford University Press meets this standard? SaltyBoatr (talk) 15:13, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Oxforn Press is a PUBLISHER! It is not a PUBLISHED SOURCE. Fact checking and accuracy is the authors job not the pblishers. Again, the issue here is RELIABLE! Please advise if you believe that a "bought and paid for" opinion crafted to the agenda of the purchaser, is RELIABLE.68.163.104.5 (talk) 17:22, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Your opinion of policy doesn't seem to match Wikipedia policy. Could you please read WP:SOURCES and square up the differences? The question at hand is whether Oxford University Press is a reliable source in accordance with Wikipedia policy standards. Thanks. SaltyBoatr (talk) 17:35, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Again: A publisher is not a PUBLISHED SOURCE and last I checked Oxford Press was a publisher. If it's not even a SOURCE it can hardly be a RELIABLE source. Also again: Please advise if you believe that a "bought and paid for" opinion crafted to the agenda of the purchaser, is RELIABLE68.163.104.5 (talk) 18:02, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Third opinion. This is more a WEIGHT and NPOV issue than an RS issue. SaltyBoatr's edit fails to note that Cornell's view is controversial. Phrase it as Cornell's POV, fairly note that it's disputed and that more reputable scholars like Amar disagree with him, and there shouldn't be a problem. THF (talk) 19:00, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Actually if one being intellectually honest one would note that Cornell and Amar are largely in agreement about the original meaning of the Second Amendment and disagree over the incorporation issue.

There is no such thing as a non-controversial claim in this contested field. Much of this is simply gun rights troll work. If this is to be serious it will need to recognize that many of the gun rights sources are tainted by their funding as well. I suggest we focus on the arguments, not the funding. Alternatively we can get rid of virtually everyone who has written about this topic since they can't pass the funding test. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philo-Centinel (talk • contribs)

I agree that the funding is irrelevant. Joyce funds these scholars because they oppose gun rights, not the other way around. THF (talk) 19:26, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

You said the magic word. FUNDS!!!!!!!!!!! There is no difference beween hiring an in house author to push your agenda, and funding an outside author. Remember that Mr. Cornell got $400,000 in INITIAL funds. Who knows how much more followed. Frankly I don't know that many people who would NOT toe the party line for $400,000.

And ditto, but on the other side of the coin, when the NRA hires council like Stephen Halbrook. SaltyBoatr (talk) 19:53, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

THF - I for one would like to see the POV dispute label come off the article. Your solution would keep it there.

Philo - Please lay off the name calling unless you want me to start calling you a gun control freak or a domestic enemey of the US Constitution. As for reliable source, I believe that many many such sources exist. I just don't believe that Saul Cornell or issue 76 of the Chicago Kent Law Review are reliable. From the evidence available Saul Cornell is nothing but a glorified handpuppet of the Joyce Foundation. Whatever comes out of his mouth is what Joyce wants to come out.

Salty Boatr - I believe if I got a copy of Halbrooks book and started including material from it you would start screamin POV bias. Am I wrong?

RE: WEIGHT issue, There does seem to an excesive number of references to Cornells book. Thank you for pointing out that we have a WEIGHT problem as well.68.163.104.5 (talk) 20:44, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

This is rather astonishing. The Cornell book was peer reviewed by Oxford and widely reviewed in scholarly journals. Halbrook's book was not properly peer reviewed and was subsidized by a conservative think tank. The notion that Cornell is a front for Joyce is delusional. Anyone who has read the book would realize it argues for a strong individual rights tradition, but dates that tradition to the Jacksonian era. It does not claim there was no individual rights tradition in the 18th century, but argues that it was relatively weak. Amar argues that there is no individual rights tradition until Reconstruction and that is held up as scholarly. Anyone who claims otherwise is really just mouthing gun rights propaganda. Just read the Levinson review of the book in Reviews in American History. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philo-Centinel (talk • contribs) 21:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

This may be premaure but I'd like to welcome you to the world of Conspiracy nuts, where governent offials only care about getting more money and power and big money has bought up the government. ;-)

Please check the links and text at the top of the page. Per those links Cornell got $400,000 in startup fund for his Second Amendment Research Center from Joyce. That was just the start up money. There are indiction more followed to keep the center going. In my world $400,000 buys a lot. What does it buy in yours?

Here's a additional link to what looks like a publication from Ohio State itself which states that Saul Cornell received a two year grant from the Joyce Foundation to set up his Center. No amount is mentioned. Can't get much close to the horses mouth then that

http://humanities.osu.edu/news/humex/humex2003.pdf

Here's a link to someone who disputes Cornells accuracy. Suposedly Cornell states that a certain stature applies to guns. According to this author it only applied to knives.

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2008/08/historian_revie.php

From this it looks like he's not up for a debate on the Secon Amendment issues and instead ties to muzzle those advocting the individual rights position. Not waht I consider the attitude of a tre scholar.

http://armsandthelaw.com/archives/2005/04/more_on_joyce_f.php

Can't say that further research into him has made me any more confidebt of his RELIABILITY! I therefore contnue to have issues where he is used as a reference. 68.163.104.5 (talk) 22:13, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Arms and the law is funded by the NRA-- this is precisely the sort of biased treatment of information that suggests that we ought not to trust the person making the complaints about Cornell. Why trust Hardy-- who has no serious academic credentials and is funded by the NRA?

As far as the issue of knives goes-- it is a mistake to treat the Second Amendment as if it protects a right to own guns. The actual language is guns. If one actually looks at militia weapons one might argue that certain knives ought to have more protection than handguns. One can argue the point--but the notion that this discredits Cornell is silly. I suspect we are dealing with someone without any legal education or any other academic credentials. Clearly the argument is typical of what one sees with high school students--

Then notion that a 400,000 grant disqualifies scholarship would mean that everything produced by scholars at George Mason Law school needs to be discredited. The NRA gave more than a million for Nelson Lund's chair. Robert Levy the money behind Heller is also a big donnor to Mason-- in fact the recent symposium on Heller held at GMU was in space named after Levy-- so do we simply toss out everything from GMU-- by the logic used here we ought to-- I think it is better to note the role of money in this debate and move on to facts and serious scholarly argument.

At the end of the day Cornell was cited by SCOTUS in Heller and has published in top law reviews and history journals. You can disagree with him, but this sort of smear tactic only suggests an effort to silence those who don't accept the gun rights view of things. In my posts I have tried to be balanced and weed out tedious discussions that would never survive any serious editorial process. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Philo-Centinel (talk • contribs)

Re:Hardy- I can't seem to find any reference to any Hardy in the article. Seems he's not trusted. Re:Levy - no material from any Levy is referenced. Again not trusted. re:Lund - One quote not subject to dispute and double reference to boot. See current referenced 99 and 100. Therefore not trusted, only reference has a backup.

Your complaints regarding the trust given to gun rigt advocates seem to be a bit thin. More like nonexistent!

Speaking of smears the "gun rights troll" remark was yours! You are the one with the smears. Ever heard of "Don't bitch about the mote in your neighbors eye, when you have a freaking beam in yours" or something like that? How about "War is Hell"?

Of course it is the gun right activists that would bitch about Cornells bias. You'd hardly think that his fellow gun control advocates would call Cornell biased now would you? Sticking a knife in the back of one of your leading spokesman is just NOT DONE!

Yet Again: The wiki issue here is whether a "bought and paid for" opinion is RELIABLE. I say it is not. Granted not wiki policy, but the rules of evidence are on my side. Compelled evidence is suspect and inadmissabe in court. What you may not know is that compelled evidence includes BOUGHT evidence.

One of the defintions for compel is To exert a strong, irresistible force on; sway

There is no doubt in my mind that $400,000 can SWAY a person! Is there in yours?

Lastly, if you believe that someone has received enough money from the NRA or any other gun rights group or organization to SWAY him, then simply provide proof (with the amount) and I will support the deletion of all references to material printed AFTER the money changed hands. If you insist I will even go back a year or two from the date of the transaction.

In the case of Cornell the money changed hands in 2003 and the book in question was printed afterwards.68.163.104.5 (talk) 00:38, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Hardy's web site is arms and the law which is cited for some of the critiques of Cornell in the discussion above. It is the basis for much of this Anti-Joyce nonsense. The charge that money influenced the scholarship has no foundation. You would need to show intent. If anything the fact that his book and several of the articles acknowledge an individual rights tradition and actually critique the traditional collective rights argument cuts against your case. Halbrook was cited as good authority by someone in this thread yet he is professional gun rights lawyer and the NRA got his Amazon numbers up by a book bomb. You might thinkg $400,000 is a lot but in the sciences grants run into the millions. Even in the social sciences grants run over a million. Actually $400,000 is not very much money for an academic grant at all. You make it seem like the money was given in small bills in a parking lot in a brown paper bag. University's take over head, release time is charged at the highest possible rate-- if you hire graduate students you have to pay their tuition and health insurance. I would say that if you actually had ever attended a serious university you would realize how silly your charges sound to an educated person. If you add up the fact that some of the money was used for conferences that is at least another 50-75 grand. The amount is really modest for serious academic grants and is a fraction of the money spent by the gun lobby on the many law review articles produced by David Kopel and others. The whole thing is guilt by smear-- the Joyce issue is a way to not deal with evidence and argument. Are you going to get serious or not. Either talk about evidence and argument, or find another hobby Philo-Centinel (talk) 01:33, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Yet again: Hardy is NOT trusted. He has no voice in this article. Do not use him as an example.

Also again: You are free to look over the citations on the article. If you find anyone that you suspect of having received enough NRA money to be biased, I will support any move you make to delete content from that person, but only AFTER you provide a link to sufficient proof.

FYI: I pumped Halbrooks book to the extend of stating that per Amazon it is WILDLY outselling Cornells book despite being twice the price and that those commenting there rated it higher then Cornells book.

Regarding whether $400,000 is lot. I'd say it would keep a professor in a Univerity employed for a number of years. That's a lot to a professor.

I was puzzled by your comment above that he Second Amendment refers to guns - your comment follows

it is a mistake to treat the Second Amendment as if it protects a right to own guns. The actual language is guns.

Checking the text I confirmed that the actual language is "arms" and not guns. You should remember this in order not to appear ignorant in the future. Wondering what else you may have gotten wrong I checked to see whether Cornell had actually been referenced in the Heller case. Turns out he had,

in the dissent

about Negro millitias after the Civil War!

In other words, he was a bit player for the losing side! 68.163.104.5 (talk) 02:26, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Due to your alteration of my Complaint below with the intent to hide Cornell worked for Joyce in 2006, the same year his Second Amendment book was printed, as editor of their bought and paid for issue of the Stanford Law and Policy Review I am no longer accepting complaints from you to be in good faith. You are dead to me! Get lost.

Other editors are asked to check the changes made to this discussion page in history at 19:06 for confirmation of intent to hide evidence.68.163.104.5 (talk) 03:30, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Since no valid obections have been made to deleteting biased, bought and paid for, opinion from Saul Cornells book I will now start to remove all references to him and his book as he is a paid "mouthpiece" of a gun control advoacy group. Again Mr. Cornell received $400,000 fom the Joyce Foundation prior to the printing of this book in support of their gun control agenda and the relationship continues.

The only objection so far is that his printing house is a valid source. This objection is BOGUS as a printing house is neither a book, a jounal, a paper, an article, a court case or associated legal document such as a brief, also is not a letter, or a transcript of a hearing, speech and whatnot. In short a printing house is NOT a source.

Portion of Verifiabiliy policy for Salty Boatr.

In general, the most reliable sources are peer-reviewed journals and books published in university presses; university-level textbooks; magazines, journals, and books published by respected publishing houses; and mainstream newspapers. As a rule of thumb, the greater the degree of scrutiny involved in checking facts, analyzing legal issues, and scrutinizing the evidence and arguments of a particular work, the more reliable it is.141.154.110.173 (talk) 16:23, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

You and I may disagree about what constitutes a reliable source. See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Reliable sources for a description of my belief. This is Wikipedia policy and is not subject to compromise. I am willing to seek a third opinion to resolve our disagreement about whether the books published by the Oxford University Press qualify as reliable sources or not. Are you willing? SaltyBoatr (talk) 16:40, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

Paying a cutout (a sockpuppet in wikispeak) to push your point of view is equivalent to self-publishing

Self-published sources (online and paper)

Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, forum postings, and similar sources are largely not acceptable.[5]

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.141.154.110.173 (talk) 02:06, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Adjust MiszaBot?

even with MiszaBot archiving threads that have had no discussion in 14 days, this page is becoming unwieldy again. i'd propose lowering the threshold to 8 days - a week and a day allows those who only have rare opportunity - perhaps on weekends - to still participate in threads should they choose to. thoughts? Anastrophe (talk) 05:13, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Fine by me. That would make sure this talk page only shows current discussions. SMP0328. (talk) 05:22, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

i've done so, but obviously if any editors should disagree, they're welcome to chime in - or to change it to some other value. Anastrophe (talk) 07:44, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

in case anyone was wondering, the page archiving didn't change...because i'm an idiot. hey, it was late, i was sleepy, and i managed to only change the '14' to an '8' in the introductory text of the miszabot, rather than its actual code value. duh. fixed now! Anastrophe (talk) 08:37, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

A better way to keep the talk page manageable would be for us editors to encourage each other to avoid using the article talk page to discuss anything other than the content of the article. A quick archiving cycle risks archiving genuine "article talk" prematurely. SaltyBoatr (talk) 16:57, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

excuse the hell out of me, but what is your rationale for removing my last comments? i see no justification for it. i also disagree with your rationale - the better way to manage an unmanageably long talk page is to archive inactive discussion. two weeks without a response is excessive. eight days is a reasonable balance. reverting the change in archiving interval, while removing my comments, and not noting that you'd done so, is, well, i don't know what it is, exactly, but it's definitely not cool. Anastrophe (talk) 17:00, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Removing your comment was an editing error, (my failure to use the 'pg down' key). Sorry, not intentional. SaltyBoatr (talk) 17:09, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

fair enough. Anastrophe (talk) 17:23, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

A side effect of my rational, limiting discussion to just the article, is that it would limit the incivility that comes with personal attacks on editors, or discussions of personal opinions. SaltyBoatr (talk) 17:11, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

that's fine, we can all strive to do that. we can also all strive not to badger other editors with questions unrelated to matters under discussion. we can all improve our behaviour here. be that as it may, half a month without a response in a thread seems excessive. as a compromise between the eight days i proposed, and the fourteen days you prefer, i have adjusted the miszabot to eleven days. let's see how it works. other editors are certainly welcome to chime in on this change. perhaps consensus is necessary.Anastrophe (talk) 17:23, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

At least we should wait 14 days to give editors a chance to read this section discussion before it gets archived. SaltyBoatr (talk) 17:53, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

why? the talk page is already clearly archived. if an editor only checks in as rarely as once every half month, they have a reasonable expection that previous discussion has been archived. it will already have been archived whether it's 11 or 14 days. this seems like extreme obeisance to editors who aren't particularly active here to begin with. Anastrophe (talk) 18:28, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

so it seems that neither of us were actually adjusting the right parameters in the miszabot config. the counter apparently determines how many archives have been made, or some such. frankly, i don't have the time or inclination to screw with it any further, so i guess it stays at fourteen days unless someone wants to muck about with it. Anastrophe (talk) 06:52, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Footnote 67 request full quote

Bumping this talk page thread which got archived without an answer. I am still requesting a longer quote from this extremely obscure source for confirmation. Who is speaking? What is the question being answered? What is the context of that discussion? SaltyBoatr (talk) 15:40, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

See this diff[1]. I agree there are unanswered questions about the "violative" snippet quote. Yaf, please answer the open questions. SaltyBoatr (talk) 18:55, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Giving this a bump. Yaf, please provide the full quote requested. SaltyBoatr (talk) 22:33, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Yaf, could you please give a full quote? SaltyBoatr (talk) 21:33, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

After waiting for a very long time, with no answer, I removed the 'violative' passage. SaltyBoatr (talk) 21:37, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Your refusal to look at the reliable and verifiable source, simply to push your POV through deleting content that you don't like, is inexcusable. The material is properly cited and is verifiable. Please stop edit warring with other editors. Have restored content. Yaf (talk) 00:55, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Yaf, this source is very obscure and the closest public library which has it is 500 miles from my house. I am asking for more context than the short quote you have provided. Who is speaking, and what question are they answering. What is the context of the quote? Your deletion[2] of my "quotation question" seems like a hostile act. Please, just respond. SaltyBoatr (talk) 03:25, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Notice that Yaf uses the word "verifiable". This strongly indicates that the source is not actually yet verified. I seek verification, beyond the truncated quote provided. SaltyBoatr (talk) 16:11, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Then verify it. The cited information and source has already been verified in a reliable source, and this fact has been appropriately cited in the article. The source is additionally verifiable by SaltyBoatr just by his clicking on the provided courtesy link, or by his review of a copy of the complete original document in any federal library. If SaltyBoatr truly seeks verification, then he has but to verify it. But to claim it is not verified, simply because a Wikipedia editor writing under the "SaltyBoatr" moniker has not verified it, borders on egomania, with definite WP:OWN issues. Yaf (talk) 18:57, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

You say "the cited information has already been verified". By who? If by you, tell us who is speaking, and what question they are answering. In what context does that quote exist? Sorry, I have checked, that obscure paper document is not available in any local library near where I live. I have tried to buy a copy mail order, and the document is so rare it is not even available for sale on the used book market that I could find. Do you know where I can buy a copy? See WP:Burden. SaltyBoatr (talk) 21:52, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

By anyone that knows how to click on a courtesy link associated with the cite and simply reads the text. This document is neither obscure, nor hard to verify. Just click on the link and read what it says. Yaf (talk) 21:57, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Yaf - Either the link itself has been deleted, or it never existed. Although, it was easy enough to find through Google: http://www.saf.org/LawReviews/Pierce1.html. You appear to be quote-mining though. You cited this sentence when referring to Bliss: "This holding was unique because it stated that the right to bear arms is absolute and unqualified." But you didn't include the very next sentence, which seems to clarify the statement: "In contrast to this, all states currently regulate the possession and use of firearms to some extent." If you're going to cite something that seems to hold a certain view, you shouldn't post just the information that supports your position but the entire statement (or statements). Of course, I have no idea how reliable Mr. Pierce is either way. Is he known as an expert or a reliable source on the 2nd Amendment?Alexandr332 (talk) 03:45, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Oops... just went to the 'base site' www.saf.org, which is the "Second Amendment Foundation". Is this available on any other site than a gun rights site? What do you mean by 'verified'?Alexandr332 (talk) 18:12, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

two points: 1. due to changes in the article, the footnote under discussion actually changed from being footnote 67 to being footnote 66. so, your investigation of this footnote isn't actually relevant to the footnote that was under discussion. 2. that said, the saf page is little more than a verbatim reproduction from the Kentucky Law Review. the saf link is a courtesy link. absent some reason to believe that the text has been tampered with, i don't see a problem with unadorned textual reproductions from that site. Anastrophe (talk) 18:31, 28 February 2009 (UTC)