Talk:Shamakhi dancers

POV

Even though Tat among other languages might have been spoken in Shamakhi in the 19th century, that is not enough to assert that the Shamakhi dances "are thought to have been akin" (typical weasel phrase) to Persian, especially when you have no sources to back up the claim. The Russification argument is even more controversial; you need to define first and foremost what you mean by Russification (Russians never constituted significant percentage of the population of Shamakhi, unlike Baku, where Russification did play a cultural role), and only then with the help of reliable sources argue whether and how exactly it affected this tradition. Parishan (talk) 05:48, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

The Gobineau's story is all about the Russification of the dancers (and region), but about the Tat language ,other sources may be mentioned.--Alborz Fallah (talk) 07:54, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

I would like to see more from Gobineau, if what you are saying is true. As for the Tat language, I doubt its social significance in the nineteenth century Shamakhi context. Adam Olearius who visited Shamakhi in 1636-37 noted that despite the city's rich ethnic composition, "everybody, like all inhabitants of Shirvan, speak Turkic." (Adam Olearius, Travels of the Ambassadors sent by Frederic, Duke of Holstein, to the Great Duke of Muscovy and the King of Persia. Book IV, Chapter 20). Parishan (talk) 08:35, 9 September 2008 (UTC)

Another point: there is no mentioning of the Shamakhi dancers in Alexander Pushkin's fairy-tale. He mentions the Shamakhi Queen. Parishan (talk) 00:06, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

I also took out the unsourced part about the influences of and on the Shamakhi dances. It is unfair to say "the absence of graphical records" when there were clearly paitings by Grigory Gagarin. Parishan (talk) 00:28, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

• For the Tats in that place , I find a good source .Abass Goli Bakukhaof writes in Golestan-i Iram (http://www.gutenberg.aznet.org/1/12.txt):

  Şamaxı ilə Qudyal (indiki Quba) şəhərləri arasında qalan mahalda, məsələn: Şirvanda Hovz, Lahıj və Qoşunlu; Qubada Bərmək, Şəmpara, Buduğun aşağı hissəsi və bütün Bakı ölkəsində--altı tərəkəmə kəndindən başqa--bütün əhali tat dilində danışır

  that means :
  

  The regions between Shamakhi and gheddial(nowadays Quba) like Hooz , LahiJ and Qushoulou in Shivan , Barmak , Sheshpareh and the lower part of Bodough and all country of Baku except six Turkoman village, all speak Tat language

  
  --Alborz Fallah (talk) 06:55, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but we are talking about Shamakhi though; if you look a few paragraphs down, it says that all remaining mahals of Shirvan, all of and around Darband, as well as Shabran, Quba and Salyan, speak Turkic (i.e. Azeri). Parishan (talk) 18:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Well, as Iran proper , the rolling class has been always Turkic language , and that means the tat-language suburb was not considered significant compared to the center that was the place of Turkish language governor.If we look at the map , the Qubba(Kuba) is in the north side of Shirvan and Baadkube(Baki) is in east :that means all the northern and western superb of Shirvan was Tat language in time of Bakikhanof and he also says himself (In that paragraph you mentioned) that the Turkish language people came from Iran during the Safavid era and their Turkish language is the same of Iranian Azeris : that means the original language before the coming of Qizibashs was other than Turkish .
According to An Illustrated Description of the Russian Empire published in 1855, the population of Shirvan was mostly made up of Persians:

“ Shirvan was formerly a province of Persia…The inhabitants of this province are chiefly Mohammedan Persians.'An Illustrated Description of the Russian Empire by Robert Sears, published in 1855, pages 289-290 ”

That shows we can't say about the language by sure , plus that important point that the written Turkish language has never been in routine use in any part of Iran (again as Bakikhanof says : lakin hər dil üçün lazım olan yazı qaydaları və qanunları (sərf-nəhv) bu dil üçün hələ təyin edilməmişdir), so distinguishing between Tat and Turk language people in place was so difficult for any writter , I mean the Turks know Persian and the Tats know Turkish , then it was difficult to say by sure whose language is Turkish and whose Tat(again same as nowadays Iran). --Alborz Fallah (talk) 11:30, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

It says in that paragraph that the Turkic language is an indication of its speakers' descendence from Turks, Mongols and Tatars, which does not mean at all that the Turkic-speaking population came from Iran during the Safavids. In any case, this discussion has to do with an unrelated topic. Parishan (talk) 21:54, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Greetings. My question is addressed to Parishan personally: 1. Armenia was established after the October Revolution by Lenin. That means that the Armenian state exists less than 100 years. Armenians of the Armenian Republic mainly come from other neighbouring countries as well as Iran, Ottoman Empire. So on the emmigrants granted the sovereignity and a territory named after Armenian Republic. 2. Armenians continiously populated the Nagorny Karabakh territory since 150 years ago. But now they claim to be the oldest inhabitants of those lands. 3. Armenians are liers; They deceive the world's public opinion claiming all the cultural & historical heritage of Azerbaijanis to be of Armenian origin. They merely falsificate the genuine history on their books, newspapers, TVs, Radios, public speechs and on the Internet. Are you agree with me? If so, please set down your expression or objections. How do you think, why the Armenians behave so fake? What do they expect to achive? --Faikpro (talk) 08:56, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I was mentioning this sentence : "Bunlar əksəriyyətlə türkmən, moğol və tatar nəslindən olub, bəziləri də, Osmanlı-İran müharibələri zamanında, Səfəvilər dövründə və bundan sonra gəlmişlər. Bunların ləhjələri Ermənistan və Azərbayjanın bütün vilayətlərində də İranın bir çox yerlərində işlənən türk dilinə mənsubdur."
--Alborz Fallah (talk) 10:24, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Waiting for the answer to my question.--Faikpro (talk) 10:47, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Alborz Fallah, it says "bəziləri", not "hamısı". Parishan (talk) 22:21, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I was pointing more to the analogy between Azeri dialect of Azerbaijan (that means Iran ) and the Armenia.The same group of Tatars and Turkomens also live in Iran and that is very possible for them to go from Iran proper to north parts of Aras river . --Alborz Fallah (talk) 06:58, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Faikpro, the questions you are raising are irrelevant to this discussion. Parishan (talk) 22:21, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

What does Parishan???

ON ARMENIANS. They are one of the oldest nations that settled in the Eastern highlands of the Asia Minor. I do not advocate that they are old inhabitants of the present-time Armenian Republic and Nagorny Karabakh. However, we have to acknnowledge that they are not migrated from the Central Asian fields some 1000. years earlier as turkic nomads. Armenians share the same cultural traditions with the rest of the Iranians. Some of the cultural traditions of Iran transferred to the Turcik tribes through the Armenians. According the DNA tests Armenians biologically a the same with Azerbaijanis, Persians and Eastern Anatolians. They live in the Asia Minor at least 3000. years. Anyhow most of the intellectuals of Armenian nationality suferred of populism and tend to falsificate the world history.

ON AZERBAIJANIS. Azerbaijan is the historical name for the contemporary North-West Iran. Azeri language is a branch of the Iranian language family (Indo-European; Indo-Iran;). Parishan always attempts to falsificate the history of the what is nowaday's Republic of Azerbaijan. That is not allowed to write o say Azerbaijan referring to the Republic of Azerbaijan. Azerbaijan referred to the North-Western Iran only. Parishan tries to spot and delete the points concerned the Turkmenchay and Goulestan Treaties as those agreements between the Czar Russia and Iran is a solid fact that disturbs the falsificators. Parishan wants to advertize Republic of Azerbaijan as an ever existed independent state with none relation to Iran. In fact, the Republic of Azerbaijan is a break-away province of Iran and shares the same cultural traditions inherited previously (althoug with admixture of Caucasian traditions).

ShEMAKHINSKAYA BOYADERKA. I am sue that Parishan understands not much about the choreography or anthropology. Otherwise she could see that the other picture of Gagarin (Shemakhinskaya boyaderka) reflects not the Turkic (Mongoloid [Asian] race) appearance, but Indo-Iranic appearance. Even in the late 19 century there was not Turks in Shamakhi. Further on we see a gypsy (Roma people) girls on the pictures. Even their clothes and other details are commonly same the Rajasthani Gypsy dressing type. In the Shariat age muslim woman was not allowed to perform dancecs publicly. They used to dance the amateur dances for the tight family circl. Only non-Muslim womenkind used to be the Shamakhi dancers. Large gypsy community exist there in Maraza and Shamakhi even nowadays. The y can perform, foretell, to become the beggars, but not work. Most of the beggars found in Baku are of Shamakhi-Maraza Gypsies. Every movement (hand or foot pose) in dance techniques has its own name. At the Gagarin, s picture we see precise pose similarly found in the Spanish Gypsy dance tradition called Flamenco. The same pose found also in the other Gypsy dance styles. Because of Islam, till our age all the Belly dance performers in Cairo and Istambul were the Gypsies. According to this clear knowledge the Shamakhi dancer article creators did not made a connection between the Shamakhi dance and the current Az. Rep. dance traditions. They are different. The Az. Rep. dance techniques are based on Persian and Caucasus dance traditions. However, Parishan decided to reject the real matter of fact.

ETNICITIES OF AZ. REPUBLIC. I do not beleve that Parishan is of Azerbaijani etnicity. Because she does not respect the history and ethnographical state of Az. Republic. She simply takes not notice of many aboriginal (Tats, Lezgins, Taleshs, Avars, Budughs, Khinaligs, Kurds and etc.) etnicities of this region. All the nations living in Az. Republic territory are natives including the so called newcomers as well as Russian, Polish, Ukreinian and so on. Iranic and Caucasian peoples lived there always since the prehistoric times. Last Azerbaijanis are the Oguz Turkmens. All the Azerbaijani Turks are Oghuz Turkmens. In the 20 century up to the 1988, when there took place violence there in Armenia the latest vave of turks, the Kipchaq turks emmigrated to the Az. Rep. They us the "saghir nun" in their phonem as Uzbeks and Kirgizs while the local Oghuz Turkmens do not use such a phonem. Example: Oghuz Turks pronounce: "Mana;Sana" (To me;To you). Kipchaq Turks pronounce: "Manga;Sanga;" (To me;To you;).The Kipchaq Turks are called the Yeraz amongst the common people of the Az. Republic. However the kipchak Turks that emmigrated to the Az. Rep. are in the key government positions of their new homeland and try to falsificate the local history. They ignore all the traces of the Tats (and others) in the Rep. Az. instead transforming a new fake mental establishment. I was born in Baku city. My father is Tat of Shamakhi origin and myt mother is an Oghuz Turkmen (in some rayons they are called Qizilbashlar). And I feel not very good while Parishan and other non-Azeris claim that Az. Rep. is Azerbaijan and there is not other nations in Azerb. Rep. except the Turks. I think she has not the moral right to interfere the Azeri and Azerbaijan related recordings. Followed her contributions on Wikipedia one can be assured that she is nor a historian neither a linguist. Her outlook consists the knowledge available on the Internet only. That is why I decidedly called her a vandal earlier. I would like to ask her to continue to portray the outstanding countrimen on the Wikipedia pages, but not vandalize the entries that mostly created by the specialists. Some of them are professors ov various subjects. And finally, I would like to know, what is the difference between Armenian falsificators and Parishan. Parishan does the same.--Faikpro (talk) 20:46, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Ah, for goodness' sake... Parishan (talk) 07:00, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Is Parishan a Vandal?

Parishan is right, Pushkin's poem has nothing to do with the Shamakhi dancers. On the other hand Parishan is wrong deleting from the articles all the signs of Iran and Persian culture--Arkankipcak (talk) 16:14, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

You are more than welcome to put those "signs" back if you are able to provide reliable sources in their favour. Right now they are nothing but original research. Parishan (talk) 06:57, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Parishan is not a vandal

Parishan is not a vandal at all. Parishan is a German, an antique one of course.--Zuluzuljinho (talk) 19:12, 18 September 2008 (UTC) Do you mean the "barbar"?--Faikpro (talk) 22:34, 20 September 2008 (UTC)