Talk:Smoked salmon/Archive 1

Archive 1

Most of this page reads like marketing copy

Seriously. Was the "Production" section of this written by the marketing team at the company mentioned prominently in it, Stornoway, whose"cured salmon delights gourmonds from Scotland to the south of England and the cognoscenti in Europe"? Or was it just written by someone who had no sources besides the backs of various smoked salmon packages?

On top of that, much unsourced personal opinion in the same section. Badly done, whoever wrote that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.144.218.74 (talk) 19:40, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree and I've removed the worst of that stuff. --Epipelagic (talk) 20:04, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Merging Lox with Smoked Salmon

Lox and smoked salmon are NOT the same thing. I was born and raised in Puget Sound salmon country. We have and have always had an abundance of smoked salmon, which is typically sold in full fillet form, up to an inch thick, and can (when done right) be pleasantly dry. Lox is always moist, is always thinly cut, and is a much rarer find in the Puget Sound region. Smoked Salmon is ubiquitous here, a staple of local cuisine, found everywhere. In our region (which is very big on the local salmon) Lox is typically found only in Bagel places and Kosher delis. Smoked salmon is a Native American thing, Lox is a Jewish thing. Smithe26 10:29, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I've proposed a merger of Lox and Smoked Salmon, as I'm almost positive they are the same thing. Please leave comments for/against, and I will check back in a few weeks to see what people think about this. Nemilar 05:19, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

If there is to be a merger it should be under the title of "Smoked Salmon". Living in Scotland, and having worked for a time in the production of this foodstuff, I have never heard of the term "Lox" used for the smoked product. I have however, heard (and made) Gravadlax. I think also that the suggestion that this word came into English from the Yiddish is misleading, considering that the Middle English had the term "leax, læx &c." for salmon which was found latterly as "lax" chiefly in North-east Doric of Scotland from the 14thc. (taken from Chambers Concise Scots Dictionary). I would conversely suggest that the word came from the cognate germanic languages into yiddish as a loan word. This is also English wikipedia and I would further suggest that this article should have the correct and most common English name for the product. Brendandh 22:20, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Yiddish is a Germanic language, so Yiddish did not take on most of its Germanic lexical elements as "loan words," but developed them from its very origins.

While this is not Yiddish Wikipedia, lox is an English word (note its characteristically English spelling) although it was borrowed from Yiddish. —Hanina

I would stand for those who know Lox as thinly sliced salmon, and cured only with salt [or salt/sugar/spices], or brined [with or without sugars/spices] and -cold- smoked. This is distinguished from smoked salmon, which is cooked at 200 or more degrees and raised to an internal temperature of 160 or more, or rare if you like, too. This distinction in nomenclature is common in the North East U.S., in areas with large jewish immigrant populations, and elsewhere in the U.S. where Lox is as described. None-the-less, cooking is an art form, easily manipulated and evolved -- i, for example, grew up in the N.E., but lived in Louisiana so long that I smoke salmon, using a creole mustard, rosemary, olive oil and lemon marinade, followed by a brief sojourn [5minutes, with one turn] at massively high temperatures in a Weber Grill, flush with lots of wet hickory chips. Would I combine the articles? No. But I would liberally retain article titles for the certain variants, and liberally cross reference to the variants, and perhaps, make a reference to a Wiki [food/cooking] article that combines all items. The encyclopedia should speak of the historical and common uses in areas around the world; the cooking wiki, on the wonderful variants and how the flavors can be manufactured to make the mouth dance around the world. JohnRuskin 01:40, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

I believe that "lox" (sometimes lachs) is pickled salmon, not smoked. -- Dominus 07:18, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Never heard anyone call smoked salmon 'Lox'. Been living In North America (Canada) all my life...

I agree, the pages should be merged. However, lox is not neccesarily smoked (often cold smoked) after it has been preserved in brine. The term lox (originally Yiddish but with cognates in many languages) was first used in New York and remains more common on the East Coast and especially in New York City. 128.112.89.14 07:08, 11 February 2007 (UTC)michael

I realize that the word's usage may change regionally but for me, my family, and any commercial entity I've interacted with in the United States that has used the word, lox refers to the cold smoked version of smoked salmon. The existing entries imply that relationship as well. They should be merged under Smoked Salmon with Lox given as the alternate name under the Cold Smoked section. User Dominus's pickled claim maybe a German reference to lachs. -- Mgenereu 03:40, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

Lox is the same thing as smoked salmon only in the sense that a raw egg is the same thing as a cooked egg. I believe the articles should be combined, but primarily to make the point of how different all "cold-smoked" salmon products (including lox and, I believe, gravlax) are from "hot-smoked" salmon products (including European smoked salmon and traditional American smoked salmon, etc). The raw/ cold-smoked products are translucent, smooth, limp, "melt in your mouth", and oily. The cooked/ hot-smoked products (including raw smoked products which have been cooked, as in "lox-onion scramble" [[1]]) are opaque, flaky, stiff, often tougher to chew, and can be dry. The cold-smoked products bear a similarity to raw salmon, which in a sense they are; whereas the hot-smoked products bear a similarity to ordinary cooked salmon, which indeed they are. Tina Kimmel 03:10, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

Co

In point of fact 'lox' refers to salmon that is cured ad may or may not be smoked. Smoked salmon is cured then smoked.

Mag

They could still be put under under one article, Smoked salmon, and the two words explaned further there and wether it may or may not be smoked and all that fine stuff. They are just so similar, it makes more sense for them to be together under the more common name. Lox tends to be more of a local word and unknown to many people in certain regions. Epson291 02:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Coming from an Ashkenazic Jewish background myself; I'm third generation in North America. My mother is from New York, but, just to be clear, I don't think it's fair to say that the term comes from New York since much older terms almost identical to it; and though I wouldn't say that the term is derived from Yiddish (as Yiddish is overtly derived from several surviving languages), I would say that it is through Yiddish that the term gained its cultural importance, such as its pronounced connection to bagels in Jewish culture. My family has always called it lox throughout my upbringing. They would say that all lox is smoked salmon, but not all smoked salmon is lox. However, they were inclined towards centrisms of sorts that limited their definition of lox to what is being called here the Nova Scotian variety. I'm seeing that there can be things that some people call lox made just by curing the salmon, as well. So technically, it would seem, lox is the overarching word for all salmon that has been cured or smoked. This is an argument for merging the smoked salmon article into the lox one. However, I believe that in actual parlance the term "smoked salmon" is used more overall, especially in recent years (the past three to four to five decades) than lox. It seems logical to me, then, given this contradiction between meaning and usage, to merge the two articles under the name of "Smoked and Cured Salmon," redirecting from "Lox," with explanations of the different varieties and fuzzy borders between these, perhaps explaining the complications brought about by the varied, rather colloquial usage the term "lox" gets. DaltanHenween 09:15, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

• I agree - though perhaps simply preserved salmon, or even a single preserved fish article? It doesn't make sense to merge under smoked salmon, when the article may describe a food which isn't smoked. - superβεεcat  23:11, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

I suggest that separate articles be maintained. Smoked salmon is produced in South Australia. The term "lox" is literally unknown in Australia.

I have eaten lox in the USA, and it appears to me to be processed in a different way than smoked salmon which is produced in Australia- hence a distinct product.

Fitzpatrickjm 12:56, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

It would be wrong to merge the two articles, and potentially confusing for the UK reader. Although the term "lox" is known in the UK it is not used. Alan Davidson's Oxford Companion to Food has no entry at all for "lox" although a brief reference to it can be found in the article on USA food. Gordoncph (talk) 07:24, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Some smoked salmon has skin (no scales) on one side, should one eat the skin or scrap it off? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.62.8.253 (talk) 05:37, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Picture

The illustration is not right. It looks nothing like smoked salmon as understood in Scotland or in Scandinavia. What is "chum" salmon anyway? Gordoncph (talk) 17:13, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, not only does it look nothing like smoked salmon as I know it (as a Scot), it also looks very upappetising —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.131.193.125 (talk) 22:13, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

So glad I'm not the only one that thinks this picture is completely disgusting! It looks like something that I would not ever eat. I own a family-owned fish processing company in Alaska, and would be happy to provide a more appealing photo in the upcoming month or two. Our salmon season is right around the corner. ~ * ~ Blue Lunar Storm ~ * ~ (talk) 06:48, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

I could not agree more, this article is a very much centered on North-Eastern US understanding, and doesn't represent smoked salmon as seen in the rest of the world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.90.139.73 (talk) 09:21, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually the article has quite a lot about smoked salmon as seen in the rest of the world, mostly added since the earlier comments were made. But what specifically do you have in mind that should be added? --Epipelagic (talk) 09:36, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

temperature and Lox/smoked salmon

I've had a commercial smokehouse for a very long time, and I wouldn't dream of taking my "cold smoked" sockeye salmon to 99 degrees F. In fact, I'd shut down before 90 degrees F. Salmon is cooked by 115F, but it's started down the road of being cooked well before 115F. We strive to keep our cold smoked salmon below 75F. My smokehouse is now loaded with salmon for making jerky. It's running, as I write this, at 63F.

As for the Lox/smoked salmon debate, 50 years ago, when I first started fishing in BC, we called Spring Salmon - what Americans call King Salmon - mild cure, because it was fairly lightly salted and shipped to the New England States as Lox. Smoked Salmon came to be called Lox as a result of smokehouses in Nova Scotia taking mild cure and smoking it. Essentially, they started smoking lox. Lox, traditionally, was not smoked. It often was spiced and sugared, as well as salted, but it was never smoked. Of course, usage is all. Lox is now the de facto term for smoked salmon. But that does not make our ignorance of language history okay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CanoePass (talk • contribs) 02:28, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Hey do any of you guys sources that say it should be cooked at around this temp? Cause if so it should be changed before someone ruins there fish.P0PP4B34R732 (talk) 02:46, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Smoked salmon. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

• Added archive https://web.archive.org/web/20100709062014/http://university.uog.edu/cals/people/Pubs/Food/Smkgfish.pdf to http://university.uog.edu/cals/people/Pubs/Food/Smkgfish.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 01:50, 9 December 2017 (UTC)