Talk:Solid Snake/Archive 1

Default pic

Could we please not use the guns of the patriots image before we even know if the game is good. I mean to me its better to go with the classic mgs image anyway, but seriosuly. xthemaninwhitex@aol.com foxhoundgrunt620

It has nothing to do with whether the game is "good". The reason that the GOTP image is in place is because we want to use the newest image available. That goes for all the other characters like Meryl and Ocelot, too. Village Baka 21:09, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Snake's name from the NES era

Snake's name is Justin Halley in the 3rd party novels back in the early 90's. I can provide scans of the one of the books if you want. jarana@gmail.comNOSPAM is my email if you wanted to contact me.

That name is non-canon though isn't it? (The Bread 08:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC))

• Justin Halley is so non-canon, it's not even funny. Jonny2x4 00:55, 24 May 2006 (UTC)

If thrid-party information conflicts with first-party information... first party wins. His name is David. It wouldn't hurt to mention that his name in the novels is Justin Halley, so long as you make sure to explain that the novels are in no way cannonical. Village Baka 21:10, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Snake's image

Should Snakes picture be changed to te older Guns of the Patriots version? as it appears to be the trend to use the most recent image of the character (The Bread 08:01, 23 April 2006 (UTC))

I disagree. Solid Snake is far, far more recognizable as his younger self. Use the younger image. Syckls 04:42, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Someone should find a good render of Snake from MGS2 for the top image. MentosC 22:11, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The best render of the MGS2 Snake I know is the one published in the Super Smash Bros. Brawl site

Snake's Smoking Habits

I just wanted to mention that this article doesn't sufficiently talk about Snake's smoking habits. I think its worth mentioning because one wouldn't know he was a smoker at all unless they read closely. And still they wouldn't know his prominince for being a smoker. I don't think I'm up to writing about, so I think its up for grabs.

You know, that "Nah, just found a light." line makes me think that this could be another joke on Kojima's part. That is, while in all the games you have cigarettes or cigars, it is never shown in the player's inventory some means of lighting them (save the end of Metal Gear 2, but the cigarettes are gone at that point anyway). I once brought up this point in a feature on Metal Gear 2 I wrote for ClassicGaming.Com back when MGS2 came out, and I'm willing to bet that I'm not the only one who's ever publicly asked this. And so, Kojima finally answers the question. --Paul Soth 07:41, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

There's no reason to elaborate on his smoking habits. Yes, he smokes, but so what? There isn't anything else to say. It might be worth a mention that he uses the smoke to detect laser tripwires, but that's about it. Village Baka 21:12, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Dominant/Recessive

I have changed the part that states that Solid Snake recieved "recessive genes" to "inferior genes" (And Liquid's to "superior" rather than dominant).

My reasoning is as follows:

Liquid tells us that Solid Snake recieved the dominant genes, while he himself recieved the "flawed recessive genes". Then, in the Epilogue, Ocelot reveals Liquid was wrong to believe himself flawed, calling Solid Snake the "inferior". It is a bit of a leap from there to assume that this means that Snake recieved the *recessive* genes - particularly since he demonstrates the greatest resemblance in character to Big Boss (who would obviously express his dominant genes whenever they turned up in pairs of Dominant/Dominant, or Dominant/Recessive).

What is indesputable is that Liquid was genetically superior - but whether a gene is dominant or recessive has no bearing on how desirable it is.

It is far more likely that the scientists (having NOT identified the solider genes in 1972 - this development came after Big Boss's death and further examination of his remains) simply assumed that since he was the "Legendary Solider", Big Boss' dominant genes would be those most suitable for creating the perfect solider.

They then created Solid with the *intention* of making him the superior and Liquid with the intention of his being the "spare". Undoubtedly there would be paperwork and files on this that Liquid would be able to discover in his adulthood - which would also lead him to the conclusion that the recessive genes that he recieved were "flawed". What he would not learn was that in truth, Big Boss' recessive genes were even more potent than his dominant genes - so on a genetic level, Liquid was in fact potentially greater than even Big Boss.

On a more superficial/silly level - it would give us a cool reason for Liquid to have natural blonde hair, since the "blonde hair colour gene" is recessive. Having said that, Snake's hair seemed to be naturally blonde in MGS - but this was changed in TTS. Tsch. Retconning.

If you don't agree, that's fine - "superior"/"inferior" is unbias and covers both possible interpretations that one is able to take from the game- but clearly labelling Solid Snake as the inheritor of the recessive genes does not. - Ulicus (I really should get around to registering)

First of all, changing "recessive" to "inferior" and "dominant" to "superior" just negates the whole intent of the genetic story in Metal Gear Solid.

The point of the story is that "We are not ruled by our genetic fate" as Dr. Naomi Campbell states. That even though Liquid truly received Big Boss' "dominant" soldier genes ultimately he couldn't either defeat Solid Snake or the FOXDIE virus. And under the same context, Solid Snake who received the "recessive" genes proves time and time again that genetic fate has nothing to do with the choices you can make as a person. Naomi even mentions this in game citing that Solid's genes make him predisposed towards violence, which he disproves when he goes out of his way to save Meryl during the Psycho Mantis fight.

Next, Solid Snake's hair has long been brown. Even early cover art will tell you that and thinking that he looked to have more blonde hair in MGS seems to be your opinion. I felt pretty sure it was obvious his hair was brown even on the PSX version of the game, and see no evidence of retconning. Now, brown hair is known to be a "dominant" genetic trait. Where Liquid's hair is blonde which is known to be a genetic "recessive" trait. Albeit there are other factors that can contribute to a loss of color in the head (stress, excessive exposure to sunlight, et. al.)

Third, the difference in the genetic base of the characters due to the hair color, may be entirely limited to the specific genes linked to soldiers. A gene related to hair color probably wouldn't be considered as important as a gene linked to physical endurance in a soldier. The Les Enfantes genetic manipulation may have been focused more strongly on "soldier" genes as opposed to all genes.

Fourth, as far as "superior/inferior" being unbiased, that is your bias. The game itself uses the terms "recessive" and "dominant". Therefore those should be the terms used in the description on this page. In genetic research, "recessive" genes are not always considered to be inferior genes or traits. When you state "inferior" you are implying that Solid Snake is comprised of poor genetic material when it is stated time and time again that he was crafted from the greatest soldier that ever lived (according to game canon.)

The game's theme (MGS) is that of breaking genetic fate. And genes are classified as "dominant" and "recessive". To say that Solid Snake is the obvious "superior" however would be correct, as he has proven multiple times, often being the last man standing in a battle to the death. His genetic material, which gives him his strength (arguably) is therefore "recessive" not inferior. I am reverting your changes. TotalTommyTerror 18:54, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

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How have I compromised the main story of “conquering ones genetic fate” by saying that Snake ends up the victor despite being the “inferior”? (I believe I put inferior/superior in “ ” in the article, if not that was a mistake). If anything I’ve further clarified it – since as you say, recessive does not mean “worse.”

Speaking of which, you seem to contradict yourself (forgive me if I'm wrong), in one sentence saying that “Solid Snake who received the "recessive" genes proves time and time again that genetic fate has nothing to do with the choices you can make as a person” – implying that recessive means inferior and in the next that “In genetic research, "recessive" genes are not always considered to be inferior genes or traits.”

Which is it? I believe wholly in the latter, which was my reasoning for making the change.

The game itself uses the terms "recessive" and "dominant". Therefore those should be the terms used in the description on this page.

No, Liquid uses the terms “recessive” and “dominant” and implies that recessive is inferior, while dominant is superior.

In the Epilogue however, Ocelot simply says that the “inferior one” won. There is no mention of whether or not this means that Snake has the “flawed recessive genes”, or (as I believe) if it means that Liquid was simply wrong to believe that the recessive genes were flawed in the first place. Why should one view take precedence over the other?

Similarly, I am NOT implying that Solid Snake is made up of poor genetic material – if anything, by suggesting that he is in possession of the “dominant genes” I am implying that he is the most like Big Boss in his genetic makeup. You only express your dominant genes when they come in a pair of "dominant/recessive" after all.

You talk about the solider genes and the Les Enfant Terribles project in one breath – when the game canon specifically tells us that the solider genes were not identified at that time. All they had to work with was recessive and dominant genes - they didn't know what did what, but made a reasonable assumption that the dominant genes were the best for soldiers, since they're what Big Boss expressed. I'd argue that they were wrong, and that Big Boss' recessive genes were even better soldier material than his dominant genes, which is why Liquid believes himself to be genetically inferior, when in fact he is genetically superior to even his father - in terms of the genes that he's expressing anyway...

Ultimately however - the genetics used in MGS is pretty haphazard - since if it was a case of one clone having all the recessive genes and the other having all the dominant genes - they would not be "genetically identical" as Liquid claims... they wouldn't even look alike - which does give your "picks up on soldier genes only" argument more weight. So yeah, I think it's quite likely that we'll find that it's been retconned so that the solider genes *had* been identified by the time of the Les Enfant Terrible project... much like they retconned Big Boss's age at the time of the project and the founding date of Foxhound but, as things stand, I don't think you've dismissed my argument at all.

Regardless, I'm willing to leave "recessive/dominant" the way it is on the page. If only because you'd just change them back and I'd just have to change it again ad infinitum. :D

It would get pretty silly.

- Uli

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Ok, well that's a better argument than the one you initially presented. If you want to make a note about genetic "superiority/inferiority", that is fine with me. As you are correct, Ocelot does say "He thought he was the inferior one" (sic).

I still feel it important to note the "dominant/recessive" wording, because that is the wording that Liquid used, and is important. It even comes up in conversation again in MGS2. And considering that is how the children of Les Enfantes were created (separation of dominant/recessive genes) it is important as such to note that. TotalTommyTerror 18:08, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

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I agree with the above - I just consider it a bit of a leap to assume that Solid Snake was given the recessive genes because Liquid believed them to be flawed and Ocelot called Snake the inferior.

Granted, it is the impression I got on my first playthrough - but after seeing that Big Boss was far more similar to Solid Snake than either of his other children, it made more sense to think that Snake is expressing more of the same genes as his father than either Liquid or Solidus- which would imply that he's got the "dominant genes" - and that Liquid got the "better" recessive genes, that he mistakenly believed to be flawed... gah, the more I think about this, the more I want a game with Liquid as the protagonist.

Perhaps the article should say something along the lines of:

"Blah de blah - the sons of Big Boss were birthed through the manipulation/separation(Mix-match?) of the legendary soldier's dominant and recessive genes. Solid and Liquid represented the opposite ends of the spectrum, one expressing all of Big Boss' dominant genes, the other all of Big Boss' recessive genes... Solidus, on the other hand, was a "perfectly balanced masterpiece" - blah de blah... whether by accident or design, because of this, on a genetic level, Solid Snake was considered the "inferior".

This way, we are not stating whether or not Snake was dominant/recessive for certain, but we are clarifying what we know, that one was all dominant, one was all recessive and on a genetic level, Snake ended up as the "inferior". (Yet was such a badass that this didn't matter in the end)

That would follow through with the bit with: "Liquid Snake, who believed that he had recieved the 'flawed' recessive genes"... dar de dar.

Do you think this change would be acceptable?

- Uli

Edit: Finally got around to registering, I'm also going to make the change cited above - feel free to remove/edit if you still think it is inappropriate (Ulicus 03:35, 8 December 2005 (UTC))

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That is just fine. TotalTommyTerror 14:23, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Ugh. Listen;

Liquid Snake has the reccessive genes, and was superior on the genetic level.

Solid Snake has the dominant genes (in the genetic sense, not the superiority sense) and was inferior on the genetic level.

Despite what their genes said, it turned out that Solid was better than Liquid; this doesn't mean that Solid's genes were actually the superior ones, or that he actually had the recessive genes. That's just the theme of the game; your genes don't tell you what you can do.

As for the blonde hair issue, procure a copy of the game (if you can) and watch the videos under the "Briefing" section. Snake clearly has long blonde hair, possibly a side effect of the intense stress and guilt he was trying to escape in Alaska. He asked the Colonel for a pair of scissors to cut his hair, but how his hair managed to return to normal in the course of a few hours is beyond me.

Final question; why is their a whole bunch of text in the Editing page that I don't see on the Talk page? Is "Don't show minor edits" set to yes by default? :\ Village Baka 18:37, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

The blond hair was retconned - in the briefing during Twin Snakes, SS clearly has brown hair. There is also an argument that Snake's hair *was* brown in that tape, but since it was all in one colour, and there was a bright light being shone from above, the hair appeared blond just because of the reflected light. Though, since I've heard Snake was originally going to be blond for MGS2, I think it's more likely that they just decided "Oh well, lets forget the blond Solid Snake ever happened", and went back to the brown hair of MG and MG2.

Okay, to Village Baka, just out of curiosity, where do you get Snake having the dominant genes yet recessive on a genetic level? By the statements in Metal Gear Solid naked (pg 56) - Hideo Kojima implies that neither is superior in a traditional sense, as the technology to modify a gene's phenotype didn't exist circa 1972. Which would mean to imply at least that Ocelots statement is also oblivious of this effect, and the "inferior one" -is- the recessive one, Solid Snake. Since neither could otherwise be classified as "superior" or "inferior". Given The Patriots modus operandi of information manipulation, for Liquid to be decieved into believing he's the "recessive" son would well fit in the context of the story as well. Lilinka 06:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Ok. I should have posted this earlier; when I say "Dominant" I mean dominant in the scientific, genetic context, not in a superiority context. Maybe this will help clear up what I was trying to say:

Liquid had the SCIENTIFICALLY recessive genes, which he thought were bad, but were actually good. Solid had the SCIENTIFICALLY dominant genes, which Liquid thought were good, but were actually bad. Despite the fact that Liquid had the "good" reccesive genes and Solid had the "bad" dominant ones, Solid still won. That was the theme; you aren't limited by your genes.

And just in case anyone didn't know, scientifically dominant and recessive genes work like this: I might have the genes for both blue AND brown eyes. Since blue is a dominant gene and brown is a recessive gene, blue takes over brown and I end up with blue eyes. Even though I have blue eyes, the brown gene is still there! What they essentially did with Big Boss was split his genes in half, gave the ones that took effect to Solid, and the ones that didn't show were given to Liquid. It turned out that the recessive ones, even though they didn't take effect, were actually better than the dominant ones that made up Big Boss. Does that make more sense now? Village Baka 21:27, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Just FYI, brown eyes are dominant, blue are recessive :-P --PresN 01:58, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Generic?

Shouldn't generic be genetic?

I know that generic can have a biological term too, however it also has other meanings and could be confusing. Also I've never known anyone to use the term 'generic engineering'.

Regarding my fixing the "spelling correction" by User:66.190.245.23: The character in the "Escape from" movies is named Snake Plissken. Snake uses the alias "Pliskin". They are not spelled the same. --138.238.96.32 23:36, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Should there a be a concrete figure for Snake's age as of Sons of Liberty, since we get a birth year in Snake Eater? Jrquinlisk 07:14, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I don't recall any of the games saying that Snake suffered from PTSD. Where can I find this information?

Regarding PTSD, it is mentioned in the Metal Gear Solid 1 guidebook, which has a fair amount of information and was apparently liked by Hideo Kojima (the creator of Metal Gear) so much that he bought copies for the staff.

• • I have issues with the MGS1 guide myself. The guide gives the impression that some of the biographical data about characters were made up by the author (and thus, not exactly canonical) to fill in blanks. For example, what other sources (literature or in-game) explicitily stated that Big Boss was a Japanese-American from Hawaii? Jonny2x4 05:07, 24 Apr 2005 (UTC)
    • Solid Snake to Master Millar/Liquid Snake: "How did you know I was part japanese" - as a clone of Big Boss, I think this heavily implies that Big Boss was part japanese also.

Implies, but does not confirm. Remeber that. Village Baka 18:41, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I was being condescending. (Character A says: "You're this!") + (Character B expresses surprise: "How did you know?") = (Character B is "This"). Remember that. (195.92.168.176 18:21, 17 April 2006 (UTC))

images

I think the Decoy Octopus image has no value in this article. It seems very unrelated.

Whoever said that's Decoy Octopus is in error. Decoy Octopus has no ears. That looks very much like Snake in civilian clothing. I motion to label it as such. Steven Hildreth, Jr. 19:15, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

That IS Snake. It's from the character study section of The Art of Metal Gear Solid by Yoji Shinkawa, which shows illustrations of Snake in his civilian outfit. It seems that Mr. 208.186.56.57 here isn't too sharp to even notice the difference between Snake's and Octopus' faces. Jonny2x4 04:49, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

Someone should update all the website featuring the information of MGS:Snake Eater

Snake's real name

Isn't there a correlation between Snake's real name, David, and that of the person who gives Snake his voice in the Metal Gear Solid series of games, David Hayter?

Grumpy Troll 28 June 2005 21:06 (UTC)

Probibly not as Hideo would be writing his scripts long before voice actors where found. It's more likely a refrence to 2001: A Space Odyssey since Snake is called David and Otacon is called Hal. I believe that this was hinted at in 'Twin Snakes' for the Gamecube.

I could be wrong however and any links to an interview would be cool. --Zikar 29 June 2005 00:11 (UTC)

No, it has nothing to do with Hayter. It's a reference to 2001: A Space Odyssey and Policenauts (which are mentioned in the article). Like you said, the scripts were written long before the voice actors were hired. Snake's name is David in the Japanese version of Metal Gear Solid too. Hayter's also commented on it being a coincidence, I think. --DoubleCross July 3, 2005 21:45 (UTC)

When I first heard Snake's real name was David, I immediately assumed it was a "David vs. Goliath" reference. After all, he ends up taking on a metal giant that dwarfs him, in each and every game. Think it's mere coincidence? Theredcomet2000 05:13, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, I do, given how common the name David is. Lilinka 06:22, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Snake's Weight

I was looking at the TGS trailer for MGS4, and it appeared to say that Snake weighs 89.9kg (198lbs). However, on this site, it says that he weighs 83kg. I know for a fact that it can't be 83kg because the number has a decimal place in it. I am going to change the weight to 89.9kg. If someone knows for an absolute fact that this is wrong, please correct me and post a link here to your source.

Ac!d

There is no info on Metal Gear Ac!d in the article, maybe someone could add something in?

The thing is that the AC!D series is set in a separate universe from the main Metal Gear Saga, like Ghost Babel and Snake's Revenge before it. It won't exactly fit well with the info from main series. We could have a sub-section for side games though. Jonny2x4 22:35, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

There is absolutely no proof that Ac!d is an "alternate universe". It is, however, not set within the main storyline, but could still be integrated into the overall plot. For example, what's to say that it isn't simply the missions of the anti-Metal Gear group, Philanthropy? Of course, there is no proof of that either. Simply put, no one can say anything conclusively, and I think that an UNBIASED Ac!d section would be appropriate. Village Baka 18:58, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

I've also noticed that Snake is called Jack in Metal Gear Solid 3.

Snake isn't in MGS3, at lost not SOLID snake. --67.168.69.91 19:09, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

Meryl

I just edited the page, adding how Snake lived with Meryl for a while after Shadow Moses. The Meryl ending is the official canonical one, noted by Kojima, plus her presence in MGS4. He finds Otacon after that.

Green Berets?

This article needs some fixing. Solid Snakes military career outside of Foxhound is very vague. Although he has both worked alongside and taken orders from U.S Army personnel it has never been confirmed nor denied whether he is himself Army personnel,much less a Green Beret. It is however hinted that Snake has links to The British Special Air Service and the United States Marine Corps. There may have been some confusion between Solid Snake and Big Boss in this article.

I'm tempted to remove all the whole "Military Career Debate" nonsense since it's completely subjective and not much of an issue in my opinion. BTW, FOXHOUND is spelled in all-caps. Jonny2x4 03:07, 21 October 2005 (UTC)

Hold on a second there bucko! The existing article, as it had been, was incomplete and possibly inaccurate. Who the hell are you to say what’s “Nonsense” and “not much of an Issue”? THE POINT IS THAT WE HAVE A COMPLETE AND THOROUGH ARTICLE. What I love about Wikipedia is the level of detail and insightfulness in many of the articles about fictional careers. However, Snake’s article seemed BARE and IMPRECISE. Furthermore, I have seen people debate about Snakes military career many a time. So I took it upon myself to bring light to this IMPORTANT ISSUE on a respected forum that would appreciate a completely OBJECTIVE, THOROUGH and WELL RESEARCHED commentary.

Instead I get a Dickhead, and not just any Dickhead – I got the kind of Dickhead who thinks he’s the GODDAMNED editor and chief of the fucking NEW YORK TIMES. And you know what else?! Describing you as an editor at the New York Times wouldn’t be too far off, SINCE YOU HAVE THE EXACT SAME LACK OF JOURNALISTIC INTEGRITY! THAT’S RIGHT, the kind of fucking DICKHEAD that makes up an article and doesn’t give a shit that it's FALSE!!

AND YEAH, I may be an Asshole for badgering someone on the Internet but at least I’m not the kind of DICKHEAD that lets people read an INCOMPLETE REPORT in a goddamned ENCYCLOPEDIA!! JUST BECAUSE YOU DON’T THINK IT’S AN IMPORTANT ISSUE IT DOESN’T MEAN OTHER PEOPLE DON’T AND IF YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT THAN YOU CAN JUST FUCK OFF. JESUS TITTY FUCKING CHRIST, HAVE YOU EVEN PLAYED METAL GEAR SOLID?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

In what way was that article subjective, WHAT REASON would I have to be subjective? I’m not even in the goddamned Military; I’m just fan of an awesome game.

POINT THE FIRST: THE GAME HAS BEEN VERY SUGGESTIVE ABOUT SNAKE’S MILITARY CAREER.

POINT THE SECOND: IT SUGGESTS THE GODDAMN, MOTHER FUCKING MARINE CORP AND BRITISH SPECIAL MOTHER FUCKING AIR SERVICE.

POINT THE THIRD: I AM PUTTING THE MY ARTICLE RIGHT BACK WHERE IT WAS.........YOU FUCKING DICKHEAD! Grauer_Fuchs 02:46, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Hi! Might want to take some time to read Wikipedia:Policies and guidelines before you get banned outright. --Paul Soth 08:07, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Wow! So much hissy for a trivial video game-based article. It's people like you and that Cloudsong kid that gives Jack Thompson fuel for his argument.
BTW Wikipedia:WikiProject_Computer_and_video_games states that "Theories or speculation (are unsuitable content). You may think that the Chozo were actually cannibalistic, perhaps based on a sentence referencing their mysterious eating habits in an instruction booklet, but unless this has been stated explicitly in official literature, it does not belong in the article. This applies to theories that aren't your own, as well." Jonny2x4 20:02, 29 October 2005 (UTC)

I'd just like to point out that there is a Name Debate section included in the Big Boss article but, for whatever reason, the Military Career debate was removed from the Solid Snake article. I honestly don't see what the difference is between the two; they're both strongly disputed issues among Metal Gear fans. Why is it that the Military Career debate was removed but the Name Debate was permitted to remain? Grauer_Fuchs 10:03, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

I was initially against the inclusion of the "Name Debate" section in the Big Boss article, but popular vote won out. Apparently enough people that is significant enough to be kept. The actual game doesn't provide evidence favoring Jack over John (and vice versa) and anything about Naked Snake's smirk and the use of John Doe is strictly suggestive. If it was up to me, I would have simply have it at "Big Boss' real name is unknown" and that "he uses both: Jack and John to introduce himself", since I prefer to keep fictional articles as immersive as possible to the reader (a personal preference of mine).

On the other hand, the whole thing about Snake's pre-FOXHOUND career seems more like fancruft, since it's never brought up in the series outside of that one line by Campbell and no one else debated about its removal. Jonny2x4 07:01, 8 January 2006 (UTC)

DOB Removal

I want to justify the removal of Snake's Date Of Birth of 1972. 1972 is stated in MGS3 as the beginning of the Les'Enfantes project but that doesn't make it Snake's birthdate.

First of all, the idea that within one year of starting genetic research that the same lab could produce offspring is a bit ridiculous (regardless of giant walking robots being a bit farfetched as well).

Secondly, all offspring of the project were referred to as the "Sons of Big Boss" which Liquid even states (I want to talk about what he says in a bit.) The likelihood that other "copies" were made before Liquid, Solid, and Solidus seems reasonable. Genetic manipulation would've been way in its infantcy at this point.

Third, the game only states that the "Sons of Big Boss" were born, not that Liquid or Solid were born at this time. The birth (as vague as Kojima is known to be about such things) may be a reference to the project beginning.

Now, about what Liquid says: He mentions that he and Solid are twins, but twins from a batch of 12, where the others were killed in vitro. Liquid didn't know about the existence of Solidus either. Meaning that what Liquid knows should be considered skeptical. Ocelot even confirms this post credits in MGS where he says "No one knows you were the third one "Solidus". On top of the fact that he believed that he was the genetic inferior. Another fact Ocelot corrected.

Also under criticism is Liquid's insistence in MGS2 (via Ocelot as a medium) that Big Boss was in his 50's when he was cloned. If Big Boss was 50 in 1972, that would've made him at least 42 years old during the Snake Eater mission. And it seems incredibly odd that a 42 year old soldier is constantly referred to as "Boy" by the Cobra unit and Volgin. Liquid's knowledge should be dismissed.

No solid DOB is given for Snake, just a date for the beginning of the project. TotalTommyTerror 18:54, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Well worded, for sure,but you seem to be grasping at straws. The fact is, in MGS3, as you say, the timeline says "The Les Enfants Terrible Project - The Sons of Big Boss are born." Not "Some other sons we haven't heard about." or "Solidus and Liquid" or anything like that. "The Sons" and as far as we know, they were all born at the same time, since there's no evidence to say they weren't. As such, as much as the knowledge of characters in later games and real life facts may cast doubt over it, it has to stand as canon until outright disproven.

Also, your comment on there possibly being clones before the 3 Snakes, and that being what "The Sons of Big Boss" is referring to. Interesting idea, but again, there's no evidence to back that up whatsoever. It's merely a theory, and as much as it might make sense, it's never stated anywhere in the series.

--24.76.109.236 00:53, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

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I stand by what I said which is an unrefutable fact, that no DOB is ever given for Solid Snake. The date for the beginning of the project is not the date for the birth of the Snakes. Kojima is known for being vague.

And as far as all the Snakes being born at the same time, how does this account for Solidus' obviously older appearance than Solid Snake in the events of Metal Gear Solid 2? He is obviously older, meaning that he was born prior to Liquid and Solid.

In the end credits of Metal Gear Solid 3 when it says "The Sons of Big Boss are born" that does not mean a specific date for the birth of the clone children. It could be, but it could also be the date the project actually began. Until a specific birthdate for the Snakes appears from Kojima in the canon of the games or other canonical works it is incorrect to label 1972 as the date of birth for Solid Snake.

So, knock it off.

TotalTommyTerror 22:31, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

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I'm sorry, but again, that makes no sense. 'The Sons of Big Boss are born' seems pretty straightfoward. Your arguement that it doesn't actually mean that's Solid Snake's birthyear is well said but again, you're basically trying to say "It says Big Boss's children were born in 1972, but it's wrong, and all it refers to is the beginning of the project."

We know from comments in the MGS briefings that Liquid Snake was in his late teens in 1991, and since Solid is the same age (if you can agree on that) then he would have been in his late teens in 1991 too, fighting in the Gulf War.

So, he if he's fighting in the Gulf War in 1991 in his late teens, the most logical ages would be 17, 18, and 19 (since Snake was in his 30s in Shadow Moses, being 15 is out, and 16 still seems too young).

If he was 17, he'd have been born in 1974. If he was 18, he'd have been born in 1973. If he was 19, he'd have been born in 1972.

Now, after this there's Metal Gear Ghost Babel. The storyline isn't canon, but Kojima still wrote it, and though the story may not go with canon Metal Gear games, there'd be no reason for Snake's age to be different then what it would be if the game was canon. Ghost Babel takes place in 2002, and it's stated that Snake is in his 30s in the game. There are 11 years between 1991 and 2002.

17 + 11 = 28 in 2002 (so that's out, since 28 doesn't put Snake in his 30s) 18 + 11 = 29 in 2002 (so that's out, since 29 doesn't put Snake in his 30s) 19 + 11 = 30 in 2002 (the only one that fits)

So, put all that together and, even without the MGS3 timeline, you can figure Solid Snake's birth year as being 1972. I won't change the entry for now, just because I know that regardless of all of this, you'll still change it back. Maybe I'll change it later, after you've read it and I get some feedback.

--T-Smith 02:58, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

---

Again you're missing an important point from my argument. Chiefly with your rationale on the ages. That Liquid's information can be viewed as completely skeptical at best. Let me explain. Liquid didn't even know about the existence of Solidus, he believed that he and Solid were the only surviving offspring of Big Boss. Liquid also doesn't know if he is older or younger than Solid Snake. It's entirely possible that he is the same age, it's also entirely possible that he is more than a few years younger or older.

Now, the official timeline for the Gulf War ends at 1991. Obviously there has been ongoing international military presence and conflict in the zone for years. Liquid's service in the war is never specified as taking place at a certain point during the war. And the term "Gulf War" could also be an umbrella term to mean that he served in that theatre of operations, and not during the specific engagement.

You mention Metal Gear: Ghost Babel. Which you also state isn't canon. Well, there you go, you just nulled that argument. Now, even if that were canon, and the mention of the age taken into place in the timeline of the game. Mentioning that Solid Snake is in his 30's does not mean he is 30. He could be 31, he could be 35, he could even be 39. We don't know because his specific age is never stated.

Let me mention now that Kojima has also mentioned that he has retconned information from the Metal Gear series and would do it again if he needed to. Anybody who has played any of the Metal Gear games and has understood them, knows that Kojima has done this. They also know that Kojima is known for being vague, known for not being specific at all, and known to leave some things up to fan speculation.

That is why 1972 can not be listed as Solid Snake's year of birth. Because it isn't fact, it isn't canon. If Kojima ever says that it is, then bam, it is. If it ever appears in the games, then it is. But right now "The Sons of Big Boss are born" does not mean that Solid Snake and Liquid Snake were born in that year. It could, but it also could not.

TotalTommyTerror 22:31, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

TotalTommyTerror, your claim that it is a bit rediculous that they would be able to succesfully produce offspring so early into the project doesn't really hold when you take into account that, within the Metal Gear universe, things can be done unrealistically fast. Examples: Just two years after Ocelot leaked data about Metal Gear REX, they had already made a "counter-Metal Gear": Metal Gear RAY. Also, just two years after the USS Discovery oil leak, they had constructed the Big Shell.

Also, you saying "And as far as all the Snakes being born at the same time, how does this account for Solidus' obviously older appearance than Solid Snake in the events of Metal Gear Solid 2? He is obviously older, meaning that he was born prior to Liquid and Solid".

Just because he LOOKS older doesn't nessasarily mean that he IS older. For example, the document says that, at the time of the tanker, Snake had experienced ACCELERATED AGING. Also, Solidus is, in fact, YOUNGER than Solid and Liquid: James Johnson says that Solidus was preceeded by Solid and Liquid. Preceeded is subjective, so it could just have been by a few minutes.

Think about it.

Vandalism

I have noticed user 65.190.242.217 (talk · contribs · count) engaging in the most inane acts of vandalism here. Injecting his own little opinions onto the site. I'd like to thank User:Peruvianllama for keeping an eye on the page. TotalTommyTerror 07:11, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

More than minor edits

I changed the text about the "Iroquois" name Snake uses in MGS2. The information should now match what he actually tells Raiden is the reasoning behind his moniker.

Also, I removed the following paragraph

According to the personal information supplied in Metal Gear 2: Solid Snake, he is 178 cm tall and weighed 75 kg and has an IQ of "over 160". In the updated stats featured in Metal Gear Solid, he is 182 cm tall and has an IQ of 180.

This sounds weird to me. I'm not debunking it, but I'm going to look into it. It felt disjaunted in its place in the article though. I'm just having a hard time finding "stats" in game.

TotalTommyTerror 11:34, 27 November 2005 (UTC)

The MG2 stats are found in that game's manual, though they say Snake's I.Q. is 160, not over 160. As for MGS, it wouldn't suprise me if someone used the stats listed for Liquid in the game's briefing mode. He's stated to have a height of 183 cm and an I.Q. of 180. Solid Snake doesn't appear to have his stats listed in briefing mode (unless they're in a hidden scene that I missed). I'd say run with the MG2 data unless something more recent comes to light.

I realize the Acid series is non-canonical, but the MGS1 Solid Snake card lists his I.Q. as 180. While the Acid series itself doesn't enter into the equation, the statistics on the card are most likely accurate. 71.197.144.129 05:29, 14 December 2005 (UTC) Matt Connellan

Confusion with another character?

I notice the first paragraph there claims snake to be: "the man who makes the impossible possible."

Is this mentioned somewhere in the game series itself? Perhaps it's just me, but I somehow that phrase reminds me of the Gundam Seed character, Mwu La Flaga. Could someone confirm the title in its relation to Snake? I just have this incling that some random internet person dropped the line in because he thought it was cool. Of course, if that's not the case, we can confirm where the line comes from and never mention it again.

Nastasha refers to that in 'In The Darkness of Shadow Moses' and I'm sure it's mentioned in several other locations throughout the series. --24.76.109.236 00:44, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

It is mentioned once in the series, but he does not use it an an alias, as "He is known as 'the man who makes the impossible, possible'" implies. It isn't ever used as a name; just as a description in a conversation. I have edited out that comment.

He does it is in Metal Gear Solid 1.

MGS3 Appearance - Confusion

It should be noted that this incarnation of Snake is mentioned only by name (actually, not even by name, just alluded to by familiarity with Roy Campbell and the fact that he mentions having fought Metal Gears before) and is not the character model used to play the Snake vs. Monkey game. If you look closely, you can note that he wears an eyepatch over his right eye, so whether it was unintentional or not, the character model is that of Big Boss/Naked Snake, keeping in line with the mention of the name "Snake" in the mini-game's title, since it is ambiguous as to which "snake" it could be.

The character in the "Snake vs. Monkey" Mini-game is, in fact, Solid Snake; they just didn't bother to change the character model. Village Baka 22:46, 14 April 2006 (UTC)

Mislabeled image?

I know nothing about these games, but I reverted this edit today that claimed that one of the article's images is mislabeled. FYI. ×Meegs 14:05, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

Twin Snakes image

I don't think Snake's render from Twin Snakes is needed for the article - if you want to show him as he appeared in Twin Snakes, you can try and get the new artwork from the game. But having his render from Twin Snakes in the article without showing his render from Sons of Liberty sounds kinda incomplete.

{{General CVG character}}

This article is currently a testbed for a unified computer/video game character infobox, {{General CVG character}}. It uses a series-specific subbox, {{Metal Gear character}} (which is distinct from {{Metal Gear Character}}, the old infobox).

Input on this infobox would be appreciated; note that the addition of things that would be obvious to reads unfamiliar with Metal Gear (such as what series is involved and the series' creator) is intentional. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:48, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Mesal gear solid

I added a section for that, I hope no one minds. This is my first Real addition, so if I have anything wrong, can you guys fix it? Robert the Small 01:42, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Mesal Gear Solid

I changed the Ape Escape 3 part slightly so people could see the name. Just thought people might want to know hat the mini-games called so they don't have to read a bunch of stuff about Ape Escape 3. Robocoppitiesthefool 15:25, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Smash Bros. Brawl: No Real-World Weapons

Concerning Snake from Super Smash Bros. Brawl, this article stated that it may still be possible for him to use real-world weapons. Sakurai (director of SSBB) states on the official website that he will not be using real-world weapons and only explosives. I just don't want anyone going in and changing this back. I'd like to add a footer for this, but I'm not sure how. If somebody could and a footer that referances this link (http://www.smashbros.com/en/characters/chara5/index.html), then that would be appreciated. Tbkgm79 22:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Took Out Yugioh TCG Part

I took out the part about Snake being in the Yugioh TCG. If you Google Image 'Tactical Espionage Expert' you can see Snake looks nothing like the Yugioh Card.

It's not hime, but it's definately an allusion to/parody of him. Aside from the rubber neck and a slight blue tinge, that's Solid Snake's MGS2 Sneaking Suit and the Tactical Espionage bit confirms the connection. I'd be tempted to put it in the Yugioh trivia. 151.151.73.171 20:20, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Whether or not that is Snake, it is most certainly trivia. It shouldn't have it's own section, that's for sure. Village Baka 21:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

HUGE problem!

I just noticed that the "Metal Gear" template is missing from this article. I think I can safely speak for eveyone in stating that this is a rather important part of the Metal Gear universe, hmm? I really don't know how to mess with templates and such, so if someone else could correct this, that would be great. Village Baka 21:38, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

You mean this? You have the option to show or hide it. It is in the article, so you've probably got it set on hide. -- Steel 21:56, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Ahh, ok. Fixed. Thanks. (but why was it turned on in everything but this article?) Village Baka 02:07, 16 July 2006 (UTC)