Talk:Sonic CD

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What about the Creepyness?[edit]

i think i'll add a sub-gameplay about creepy gaming. Jct400thz (talk) 18:46, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not, unless you find that reliable sources are reporting on it. I highly doubt that they are... Sergecross73 msg me 18:54, 20 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sound Test?[edit]

Why not include the sound test code and the secret stuff you can access from it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.64.96.46 (talk) 02:13, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Because Wikipedia is not a game guide. Sergecross73 msg me 03:02, 17 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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Screenshot update[edit]

Could someone update the screenshot? It seems weird to have a screenshot that was taken in an emulator; it would be better to put in a picture from the 2011 version. (TheJoebro64 (talk) 23:47, 19 February 2017 (UTC))[reply]

It would be better having a screenshot of the original Sega CD version, in my opinion. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:49, 21 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, ideally, this. Sergecross73 msg me 01:40, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Of course, the 2011 game can have its own screenshot too, but it shouldn't be the only/primary gameplay screenshot. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 08:02, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I don't personally disagree, but some people are so hardcore into all the NFCC image policy stuff, that they may argue and image of both may not be necessary. The improvements were largely just minor "better resolution, wide screen support" type stuff right? We're not talking full-on Sonic & Knuckles to Sonic Generations remake type changes. Sergecross73 msg me 16:11, 22 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
True, nothing texture or UI-wise was changed in the remaster, if I remember correctly. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 10:48, 23 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Box art[edit]

Hey, should we change the cover art from the EU instruction manual to the US box art? I feel it represents the game better, considering that it's the actual cover. TheJoebro64 talk 13:55, 24 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If the fact it's the instruction manual that's causing it to fail to represent the game, then just let me know and I'll scan the European cover for the article, no problem. Can't see why we need to change to the NA artwork though, given that WP:VGBOX states "If a suitable English-language cover art already exists on the subject page, then do not waste time replacing it with a different version." - X201 (talk) 13:47, 25 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It doesn't matter to me what region the cover is from; I just suggested the US one because it's already on Wikipedia. TheJoebro64 talk 06:10, 26 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I, for the record, support the move. Either cover art should be used rather than a manual cover. For more recognizable. Sergecross73 msg me 22:28, 13 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
We should replace it with the same cover then, not the NA one. - X201 (talk) 14:53, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If you wanted to do that, you should have done it 2 months ago, when this first came up. Either is fine, but JoeBro was the only one to take any action on this... Sergecross73 msg me 15:45, 14 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Notes for improvement[edit]

Hey, I'm just starting a conversation to work on improving this page. Some observations:

  1. The gameplay and legacy sections are mostly unsourced (although they appear to be correct, from what I can recall). Also, the development and reception sections are in need of serious expansion/repair.
  2. The Russian version of the article (which is a featured article) has a lot of material and information that could be used to expand this page. Some of it is sourced at places we wouldn't normally consider reliable (for example, they used an interview with Spencer Nielsen from Sega-16), but we could give it a try.
  3. On sources, this article probably needs a few more. Sonic Retro's got all these old magazines which, from my understanding, can be used as sources.
  4. Also, Christian Whitehead has revealed some interesting facts and material concerning the game's development on the Retro forums. My understanding is these are also OK to use as a source.
  5. Sega published a "developer's journal" on the game's development on YouTube a little while back. Let's see if we can find anything useful from that video.
  6. Let's also try to find some info on R2, that stage that was never in the final game (there's concept art for it in the above mentioned video).

Thanks, ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 23:09, 15 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to make a start on the reception section and work my way up, but this will involve nuking the section in question and starting over so that I know what's being sourced etc. JAGUAR  20:01, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like most of JoeBro's recent improvements have been elsewhere in the article, and there's not a ton of stuff in the reception section now, so I see no issue with that. Besides, the old version will always be in the article history (or here) if it need to be referenced or re-added later. Sergecross73 msg me 20:05, 19 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 13 June 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. (non-admin closure) TonyBallioni (talk) 01:49, 20 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sonic the Hedgehog CD → Sonic CD – Per WP:COMMONNAME. Nearly every source refers to the game as Sonic CD. TarkusAB 00:52, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose - for consistency with other Sonic the Hedgehog titles. Also, no evidence presented that it's more common either, though even if there was, I'm not sure we usually use mere shortened titles as article names like that. Even if Mario 64 were more common than Super Mario 64, or Ocarina of Time were more common than The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, I'm not sure this is the direction we want to be going in here...Sergecross73 msg me 01:05, 13 June 2017 (UTC) Upon looking into this further, it does look like Sonic CD was used a lot more frequently than I thought. Dropping my opposition. Sergecross73 msg me 12:32, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The game is overwhelmingly referred to as "Sonic CD". Unlike, say, Sonic the Hedgehog 2, or Super Mario 64, game reviews seem to give the title as Sonic CD pretty much without exception - just google "Sonic CD review" and you'll see what I mean. "Sonic CD" is also the title listed on the Apple Store, PS Store, Microsoft Store, and (until it was apparently removed from the store?) Steam. Oh, and Sega's official Sonic CD page. Frankly I think you'll struggle to find many sources that refer to it as "Sonic the Hedgehog CD", and if you google that, you mainly get Wikipedia and fan sites. Popcornduff (talk) 04:00, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - The game is almost never mentioned by its full title in common usage, so isn't that the point of WP:COMMONNAME? The game is also sold on modern stores as just Sonic CD, like what Popcornduff said. By the way, the Steam profile (using Sonic CD) is here, not sure why it didn't show for you. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 07:08, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
    Ah, it's because it's not available in my region. Popcornduff (talk) 07:39, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Support - I was going to oppose, but did a quick search and literally every source refers to it as just Sonic CD. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 09:29, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It was, just CD was the common name. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 22:04, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The title screen shows Sonic the Hedgehog CD too. Sergecross73 msg me 22:33, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yea, other than the title screen I think only the Japanese case provides the full title. US/EU covers say Sonic CD. TarkusAB 22:45, 13 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Sonic CD is such a common way to refer to it that I never knew there were other options. The cover art we use also features prominently Sonic CD. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 14:05, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Let's be honest, no one knows or refers to this game as Sonic the Hedgehog CD. I've never even seen Sega call it that.Spilia4 (talk) 21:48, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move. By now, it's clear that even the official name omits "the Hedgehog", sort of.  ONR  (talk)  22:21, 14 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support – I think at this point there is an overwhelming support that this move request can be closed early. 76.116.198.27 (talk) 14:34, 15 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Source for gameplay[edit]

~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 10:15, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

First title to include voice acting[edit]

Seeing how things keep going, I can only assume this will lead to more arguing and reverting, so I'm starting another discussion. I made this revert because its entirely trivial to note these sorts of details. Voice acting an extremely small and unimportant part of the game - most examples don't even include more than a single word or two being spoken.A few examples don't even contain words at all, like noting things like the first time a character "laughs". Completely trivial. Sergecross73 msg me 15:34, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Agreed. There is no dialogue related to plot, just a few short audio clips that are more of easter eggs than anything. And if you want to be technical, SegaSonic the Hedgehog had the first voice acting in the series, so this isn't even accurate. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 19:13, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I also agree to remove it based on A) the sources provided were only primary; if secondary sources are not discussing it, it's not notable and we are tip-toeing on the original research fence and B) calling it "voice acting" is a huge stretch; they are closer to just being sound effects. TarkusAB 04:25, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

R2[edit]

This has been here for several months, but keeps getting removed now. I don't really see why; Yuji Naka brought it up in an interview, and Christian Whitehead has talked about it a lot. The Russian version of Sonic CD is a featured article, and it mentions it, too. It may not be as big as Hidden Palace, but it's still a good piece of info on the game's development. Shouldn't it be worth at least mentioning? ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 23:42, 22 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • How long something has existed in the article before removal isn't a valid argument for it. And the Russian Wikipedia has their own independent guidelines and policies, so you can't use that as an argument either. You've been arguing on multiple Sonic game pages in favor of adding "non-important vague level/feature was cut from the game due to time constants" to them, which I've said multiple times that literally every game has done. This level doesn't even have an official name, and the sources used here are from places such as Youtube and Sonic Retro. If it was that notable, it would have surely been mentioned by better known sources. I simply ask if this level had any long-term effects on the series at large (such as Hidden Palace Zone reappearing in the remaster), outside of just being mentioned. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 05:29, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It was actually going to be in the remaster as "Desert Dazzle", but that was scrapped too. Source: http://toucharcade.com/2014/05/06/sonic-2-hidden-palace-zone-playable-prototype/ ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 12:27, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with a mention of it, but it needs to be trimmed back. Probably kept more to what the third party RS's are saying (TouchArcade,GameSpy), not the Sega Retro forum post stuff... Sergecross73 msg me 12:42, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, that's what I'm going to rework it as. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 13:07, 23 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If there were extensive information about some significant cut content, it would be worth mentioning. Saying "oh and they cut something" is trivial. Popcornduff (talk) 10:11, 24 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As I understand it, the cut desert level was originally planned for Sonic 2, though Whitehead planned on adding the thematically similar "Desert Dazzle" to the Sonic CD remaster. Sega's Aaron Webber has confirmed (19:42 to 20:26) that "Desert Dazzle" in turn inspired Sonic Mania's "Mirage Saloon," which may well be deserving of mention.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 02:25, 25 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Nice find, I think that's worth mentioning in the 2011 version section. Regarding R2, I think it's worth mentioning in more detail because right now what is there is trivial. The way it was written before though was crufty, so it needs improvement! I think The Taxman's posts (and his posts only) are reliable considering his involvement with the game. In this post, we can gather is that the Toei animations were done early in development while work on R2 was still being done. This does not confirm when the level was cut. From post 2, we can gather that the rainbow sketch (among others) shown in this Sega video is of R2. R2 is also discussed in this interview on SRZ which I think is safe to use, but others may not think so. We cannot conclude from any source why the level was cut, although it's hinted in SRZ interview because the level designer didn't do a good job. How about this:

Each level in Sonic CD was coded and debugged by a single engineer. The engineers worked independently and in parallel, with lead engineer Junetsu Kakuta managing the overall framework to bring the levels together; this same process was used in Sonic the Hedgehog (1991). One of the levels being developed for Sonic CD, often referred to as "R2", was not used in the final product.[1] (Show rainbow waterfall sketch here) Some remnants of the level can still be found in the game's files, and the stage is featured in the ending FMV sequence.[2][3] TarkusAB 15:07, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As mentioned above, I'm one of the people in favor of mentioning R2 to some capacity, but this proposal relies far too heavily on "Randomsonicnet.org" and "Sonic Retro's forum posts" as sources. We should be sticking to what third party reliable sources covered on the subject. Sergecross73 msg me 15:28, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The "Desert Dazzle" discussed in the Touch Arcade link above has nothing to do with R2. That was a proposed level for 2011 Sonic CD, which is based on Dust Hill from Sonic 2. The GameSpy link doesn't shed any light at all beyond "yea there was stuff, we cut some of it out". If we are sticking with this two sources, then maybe what's written in the article now is as good as we're gonna get. TarkusAB 16:01, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I still don't see the importance in this. "Fans found unused content in the files, and Naka said it was not completed due to time constraints" can be said for literally every game ever released. This type of info is better suited for the Sonic/Sega wikis, not here. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:36, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, but the majority of votes are still in favor of a mention. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 18:53, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Discussions are still on-going, and there's no real consensus on how yet. Stop trying to force it in until we have figured out a way to move forward. Sergecross73 msg me 18:54, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I wasn't trying to "force it in", I still think this needs to be improved. What TarkusAB has proposed is good and I'd support it, but I've got some reservations over its reliance on primary sources, which might lead to edit warring over possible abuse of these. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 18:57, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Just about everyone has some reservations about how it should be included. So it shouldn't be yet. The proper approach isn't "Well I don't know how, so I'm just going for it however I want." Boldness isn't encouraged when we're well into a WP:BRD cycle. As I've told you before, you need to work through specific proposals on the talk page, rather than through article reverts. Sergecross73 msg me 19:08, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'd hesitantly support Tarkus' proposal to add to the article. Simply stating the most generic thing possible, I.E. "some stuff got cut because of time constraints", isn't helpful to anybody. Ask yourself what was the important of the level that got cut, and how is that any different from any other game? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 19:03, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Tarkus's proposal uses things like https://randomsonicnet.org/srz/index.php?page=interviews/jt.htm as a source though. There's no way stuff like that meets the Wikipedia RS standard. Sergecross73 msg me 19:09, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
That's an interview; I'm not exactly sure how interviews go when it comes to the source. Sega-16 has done interviews with Sega presidents and Spencer Nilsen, and I'm not sure if those can be used since Sega-16 isn't considered reliable. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 19:12, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I understand the hesitation with using the source, and I feel the same way. Per WP:INTERVIEW: "As long as we can be reasonably certain that the material was written by them, then the Wikipedia policy on primary sources applies. Such material can be used, but needs to be used with care, and only to cite facts that can be verified from the source itself." So I think what it comes down to is...are we reasonably certain that the material was written by them and not edited or tweaked by the interviewer? TarkusAB 19:18, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I see that. But its still an otherwise unpublished interview, verified only by an obscure Sonic fansite who claims to be copy/pasting emails onto their website. I'm actually rather surprised Dissident93 is even open to it. He, like I, opposes it on the ground that it's more appropriate on the Sonic fansite/wikis, and this is literally an example of content that can only be sourced to a Sonic fansite. Sergecross73 msg me 19:19, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I still don't fully support it. Outside of the Naka interview, which just has a generic statement about the level, the sources are dubious at best. Could Due to time constraints for releasing the game on time, Sonic CD had unused assets and features not included in the final game. work better? But even then, it just seems too generic to really offer anything helpful. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 19:23, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I have no objections to that statement. We do have an RS saying that one of the assets was a level at least, right? I'd add that too, if possible. But your statement at least gives a message of what (unused asset/features/levels) and a reason for it (time constraints), so it's not quite as vague/pointless as some "Stuff was cut" statements prior used. Sergecross73 msg me 19:30, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I added that with the citation to the article. Now, can we focus on the discussion below? That's definitely not going to cause any more arguments. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 19:34, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Improving[edit]

OK, let's stop arguing over what to add to the page and start working on some improvements. I can see this going to GA, but we're going to need to make some major changes (the article only barely passes B-class). First and foremost, the "reception" section is woefully (and quite embarrassingly) incomplete - I've reached out for help on the main WikiProject Video Games talk page, but my request saw no responses. Second, we might need to see if we can find more development info to expand. Third, the "gameplay" section needs sourcing; we might want to look for scans of the manual and other sources.

Hope this gets us started! ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 22:51, 26 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I added the refideas template to the top so people can compile sources. I have a copy of The History of Sonic the Hedgehog which has some developer interviews and some info on Sonic CD. Don't know if only the interviews are reliable or the other pieces are OK. TarkusAB 01:02, 27 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Sergecross73: Can you help with the reception section? I'm really bad at paraphrasing and deciding what's best to include. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 11:30, 28 June 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sonic Team[edit]

I'm unsure this game was truly developed by "Sonic Team" as the source says. There are no references to Sonic Team anywhere in the game or its documentation. The development section here talks about how the Sonic 2 team concurrently worked separately in the USA, and I am having a hard time accepting that both the USA and Japanese teams are "Sonic Team", but this could be the case. I went to the Sonic Team website for some clarity but the earliest game they list is Nights into Dreams. Maybe I'm looking to far into this, but after learning that Sonic Team was not involved with Knuckles' Chaotix and that some of the folks who worked on CD worked on Chaotix, I am being cautious of people just throwing Sonic Team up for every Sonic game. TarkusABtalk 12:39, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I can understand how this is disputed. Sonic Retro lists them as the game's developers, but I'll have to dig around since it's not actually stated in-game. I'm pretty sure the Japanese team is Sonic Team, isn't it? The American one is STI, from my understanding. ~ TheJoebro64 (talk) 14:58, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
If I remember right, I thought that the name "Sonic Team" was a name assigned to the dev team a little after the fact. Like, it was that same team all along, but they weren't actually publicly named "Sonic Team" until like Sonic & Knuckles or Adventure or something. I could be wrong, but I feel like some of the early Genesis games didn't technically have the "Sonic Team" label on them, even thought they did in fact develop them. Sergecross73 msg me 15:26, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As Serge says, you're not going to see the "Sonic Team" logo on any game prior to Nights (that's also why Nights is the first game listed on Sonic Team's website).TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 17:33, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Well, Sonic 1's opening says "Sonic Team Presents" right after the Sega logo, so they were known by that name from the very start, unless this was retroactively added in later prints? Now that being said, the lead staff of Sonic CD all have clear involvements with other Sonic Team productions, such as Naoto Ohshima, Naofumi Hataya, and Kazuyuki Hoshino. The game was fully developed in-house by Sega staff, and I think Sonic Team, as a general title, can be used for some games despite not being individually credited as a separate studio. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:46, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
While it's a fan-run wiki, and obviously not an Wikipedia approved RS, http://segaretro.org/Sonic_Team is accurate to what I've read about Sonic Team in the past, and goes along with what myself and TheTimesAreAChanging are saying. (Dissident too, actually.) They weren't consistently branded as "Sonic Team" consistently until they moved on to making Nights Into Dreams. Sergecross73 msg me 19:14, 18 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the input fam. I feel comfortable removing the dubious tag for now. For those interested in more discussion like this, I edited Knuckles' Chaotix very recently to explicitly state it wasn't developed by Sonic Team despite it listing Sonic Team for years. I made this change because some Sonic Team mainstays saying it was done by another internal development team at Sega. However, Kazuyuki Hoshino did design the characters and was involved at the beginning of development, and Ohshima is credited for character design although that may just be for Knuckles. Would appreciate input if folks have concerns regarding that. TarkusABtalk 00:37, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
As someone who took a deep interest in Sega for a number of years, I was never under the impression (and cannot recall knowing anyone that was under the impression) that Chaotix was developed by Sonic Team proper. Then again, my gut feelings aren't always reliable (Serge recently corrected me on the extent of Sonic Team's involvement with Sonic 3D Blast). In any case, I'm more interested in Ristar—The Gaming Historian argues that Sonic Team should not be credited as the developer, citing an Electronic Gaming Monthly interview in which a Sega employee directly states that "No, [Ristar] wasn't designed by the same development team [as the Sonic games]." While it is also undeniable that a number of former or future Sonic Team staff contributed to the project, I think Serge's initial skepticism on that point was probably justified, and that Wikipedia's current sources are likely parroting confused citogenesis.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:15, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
But doesn't the lead staff say otherwise? Even if Ristar wasn't officially made by Sonic Team, judging by the staff, they were clearly in close association with them, as many of them also worked on Sonic CD and Nights, with the latter being officially a Sonic Team production. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I've always been in favor of using Sonic Team and the developer of Ristar - mainly for the reasons mentioned here - it was made by Sonic Team staff members in an era before they were consistently using the Sonic Team label. That, and how frequently RS's call them the developer. Sergecross73 msg me 18:47, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, you haven't, not that it matters—I just have a really long memory. If the Electronic Gaming Monthly interview cited above is accepted at face value, then retroactively attributing Ristar to Sonic Team is a bit like retroactively attributing United Game Artists's output to Sonic Team on the grounds that UGA was later merged into Sonic Team.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 08:49, 20 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I didn't even remember that! Man, good memory. Apologies for that broad statement then - it just appears you remember my Wiki-life better than me. So yeah, looking back, that dif is from Feb 2011, and I did massive rewrites to the article in November 2011 and April 2013. Looking through the page history, it looks like I must have changed my stance on it after all the source hunting I did for it during the rewrites. Sergecross73 msg me 12:44, 20 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ohshima didn't design Knuckles, btw. Popcornduff (talk) 06:19, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think that was Takashi Yuda, known for his work at Sonic Team (Sonic 3), United Game Artists (Space Channel 5), and then Sonic Team again (Sonic Riders), though others probably contributed to the final design we know today.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 06:25, 19 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The First CD Game In Series[edit]

The fact that this is the first game in the series to be released in CD is probably worth mentioning. I mean, because CDs have much more storage capacity than cartridges, this allows games to be more sophisticated which is a considerable case for Sonic CD. Therefore, this is a definitive thing. 2605:E000:2E54:8F0:345A:E1E2:DF72:DFCA (talk) 17:07, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's very trivial, and outside of the short FMV videos, it didn't do anything special. Sergecross73 msg me 17:23, 10 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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GA Review[edit]

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Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Sonic CD/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ed! (talk · contribs) 19:34, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]


Looking at this one. —Ed!(talk) 19:34, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]


GA review (see here for criteria) (see here for this contributor's history of GA reviews)
  1. It is reasonably well written:
    • "Sonic CD marks the video game debuts of Amy Rose and Metal Sonic," -- well, technically no, because a robotic Sonic appeared in Sonic 2 which came out in 1992. "Mecha Sonic" I think is what the fans call that one. Better to say, I think, that this is where the Robot Sonic antagonist gains the speed that shows up in subsequent games.
    • Actually, Mecha Sonic is considered by Sega a separate character. Sonic CD is listed in the sources as the first appearance of Metal Sonic.
    • In Plot, surprised you didn't say anything about racing Metal Sonic in stardust speedway, and it seemingly being destroyed at the end.
    • I've mentioned it now.
    • Might be good to mention similar themes that appear in this game that tie it to the others (collecting seven stones via special stages as an optional side quest) and that others are missing (Super Sonic, Tails)
    • I don't think that's really in Wikipedia's scope. WP:GAMECRUFT says not to include content such as excessive fictional details and lists of series concepts.
    • Also spotting a ref that says it was supposed to be part of Sonic 2 but was split off? here
    • That book is unreliable; it violates WP:SPS. The sources say that Sonic CD was supposed to be merely a Sega CD port of Sonic 2, but was reworked after Sonic 2 flopped in Japan.
    • Also worth noting some of the differenced in the story ports, in the Archie comic for instance, Tails is featured and Metal Sonic can talk.
    • Done. I've expanded the paragraph.
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable:
    • Refs 11, 12, 22, 30, 48, 49, 50, 64, 65, 66 -- any ISSN or OCLC numbers? These are preferable when an ISBN number can't be found, and needed to locate the periodicals mentioned.
    • These are magazines, so there aren't any ISBNs, ISSNs, etc. However, most of them can be found at Sonic Retro.
  3. It is broad in its coverage:
    Pass No problems there.
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy:
    Pass No problems there.
  5. It is stable:
    Pass No problems there.
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate:
    Images appear to be properly cited as far as copyright.
  7. Other:
    Dab links, dup links, disambig links and dead link tools all show no problems.

On Hold Pending a few fixes. —Ed!(talk) 20:48, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@Ed!: I think I've resolved everything. Responded above. JOEBRO64 22:38, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This all sounds good to me. Passing GA. —Ed!(talk) 23:13, 11 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How many copies sold?[edit]

I'm still confused by the claim of how many copies were sold. The lead says "It is the best-selling Sega CD game, with over one million copies sold by 2015"; the 2015 date implies the figure includes ports, because how many Sega CD copies have been sold in the last 20 years? But it's followed by a hidden note: "This is the Sega CD alone." How is this possible? I can't find any easy way to check the sources cited for this claim in the body. Popcornduff (talk) 05:20, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I also would like to see the Guinness World Records 2016: Gamer's Edition source myself, which is what is claiming this apparently. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 07:19, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The source is here. The book was published in 2015. JOEBRO64 11:45, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Seems pretty clear that they're just talking about the Sega CD version then - the "as of 2015" was meant for all of the Sonic sales figures listed in that little paragraph about sales. We could probably trim that part out of our prose. Yes, its "as of 2015", but its also probably "as of 1997" too. All we really need to indicated is that it's in regards to the Sega CD's lifespan. Sergecross73 msg me 13:35, 15 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, the point of confusion here is "as of 2015". New Sega CD copies aren't being sold so mentioning the "as of" here is misleading. I just removed that. Popcornduff (talk) 06:40, 16 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

2018 retrospective about development, dev teams[edit]

Naka's beef[edit]

However, lead programmer Yuji Naka had grown dissatisfied with Sega's rigid corporate policies and moved with several members of Sonic Team to the United States to develop Sonic the Hedgehog 2 with the Sega Technical Institute (STI)

I know the full story here, but the way it's phrased is a little weird. It's not clear what Naka moving to work with Sega in the US instead of Japan has to do with Sega's "rigid corporate policies" - if anything it sounds like they were flexible, considering they let him move continents. More importantly, Naka's beef has little to do with Sonic CD's development. We can just say he was in another country doing Sonic 2, and that's why he didn't work on Sonic CD. That's it. Popcornduff (talk) 02:49, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It seems pretty straightforward to me. He didn’t like being restricted by the Japanese branch, so he went off to work abroad. Sergecross73 msg me 02:54, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
That's not in the text, though, and what's more it's irrelevant. This isn't the place to tell that story. Popcornduff (talk) 02:55, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've added "of Japan" for clarity. But, like Serge, I'm against removing it because it does have relevance. For one thing, it's why Naka didn't work on the game, and not including it will make a gap (why'd he move?) JOEBRO64 02:58, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The reason Naka didn't work on Sonic CD was a cocktail of complicated reasons that were personal, political and economic, the simplest of which is that he was working on Sonic 2. And that can be expressed like this: Lead programmer Yuji Naka moved with several members of Sonic Team to the United States to develop Sonic the Hedgehog 2 with the Sega Technical Institute (STI). That's the big picture, and that's all we need to summarise in the Sonic CD article. Popcornduff (talk) 03:02, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree. I’d understand if there was a whole paragraph tangent on it, but I see no problem with a passing allusion to it in just a part of a single sentence. As Joebro notes, his dissatisfaction with Sega is an overarching theme in Naka’s time with the Sonic franchise. I’m fine with tweaking the wording, but not dropping the sentiment outright. Sergecross73 msg me 13:24, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OK. You'll all regret this when I'm in charge, though. Popcornduff (talk) 13:26, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm okay with a passing allusion just to give a reason Naka and Yasuhara were not involved, but the statement as it is isn't fully accurate, either. Naka himself answered this in an interview, as did Mark Cerny in a recent Retro Gamer article about Sonic the Hedgehog 2. It wasn't so much "rigid corporate policies" as much as Naka felt he was underpaid and got a lot of grief for how long it took to get Sonic the Hedgehog out. So, he actually quit and Cerny convinced him to come to America. Likewise, from reading the Sonic 2 article, I get the impression that more developers came over and gave Ohshima a new team instead of the old one not because Naka went, but because Sega sent them over to STI for the purpose of completing Sonic 2 - and screwed it up pretty badly with fumbling on the visas. I fear that trying to explain the reason for the situation is going to be complex enough that we need to handle it extremely carefully; if it can't be explained neatly in a sentence or so, it may need to be axed in favor of something simpler. Red Phoenix talk 13:51, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe this isn't the place for the story... Popcornduff (talk) 14:02, 19 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Source[edit]

New prototypes[edit]

Fascinating! I’ll keep my eyes peeled. R2 better be in there (it's going to be really anticlimactic if it ends up being an early version of Tidal Tempest). JOEBRO64 14:34, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@Sergecross73: “Salad Plain” JOEBRO64 21:15, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Haha, wow, I wonder if it’s like “Genocide City” where they didn’t quite understand the nuances of English in naming them... Sergecross73 msg me 21:30, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Either that or Naoto Ohshima loves a crisp blend of lettuce, carrots, croutons, tomatoes, and olive oil just as much as I do. Regardless, I don't know if RSes will pick up on this, but man is this early. They still had Sonic's Sonic 1 sprites and the peel out wasn't even finished. But still no glimpse of R2, which confirms once and for all that we live in a failed timeline that has strayed spectacularly from God's design. JOEBRO64 21:47, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
All pretty dull if you ask me... Popcornduff (talk) 21:56, 26 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that we still don't know what the hell R2 was is disappointing, but IMO it's always neat when these prototypes come out, especially if they have something bizarre/unique that wasn't in the final (we did get what PP Past was supposed to sound like!). Drx said he's got more Sonic protos coming November 2, so who knows, maybe he's hiding something up his sleeve. (This proto also makes me wonder what all the other zones were originally named...) JOEBRO64 02:02, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Do we know why the final version of Sonic CD used PCM music for its past zones? I've seen people speculate that it was due to disc space but I always assumed it was a sort of meta touch - using old tech for the past stages. But the indicates that there were hi-fidelity versions of the past themes made too.
Hmmm... WP:NOTAFORUM. Popcornduff (talk) 03:15, 27 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect pages?[edit]

Every other Sonic game on Genesis (Sonic 1, 2, 3 & Knuckles) have redirect pages when you type the names of zones in the game, but this article doesn't have any? Would it be OK if I created redirect pages? The pages would be: Palmtree Panic Zone Collision Chaos Zone Tidal Tempest Zone Quartz Quadrant Zone Wacky Workbench Zone Stardust Speedway Zone Metallic Madness Zone Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by CreeperDudeBro (talk • contribs) 22:02, 5 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Sonic CD demo?[edit]

There is a Sonic CD demo officially hosted by Sega for Windows 95. The current Sonic CD site doesn't seem to have it http://web.archive.org/web/19970327230315/http://www.sega.com/segapc/downloads/games/soniccd.html

Not sure if this would be a useful EL WhisperToMe (talk) 23:29, 3 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Cronologycal position[edit]

I think it is so daring put Sonic CD in the determinate cronologycal position where it is on the plot, being that Sega never really confirm where's Sonic CD happens. Because there are many sides that think Sonic CD goes before Sonic 2, after Sonic 2 or after Sonic and Knuckles. So, it is more like a subjective opinion that anything put Sonic CD in a fixed cronologycal position. I think the best would be to skip a supposed chronological position to avoid fights. The corrector 45K (talk) 01:48, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The claim that it goes in between Sonic 1 and 2 comes directly from one of the developers, and is reliably sourced. JOEBRO64 02:13, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Take a look a this, youtu.be/l746-8CRfJo look a the time 4:15 He is Ken Balough, the Sonic digital brand ex-manager and he said that in 2012 Developers some day say something and the next day say another thing. Sonic CD doesn't have a real cronologycal position like Sonic 1 Sonic 2 or Sonic 3 & Knuckles, CD is so fructuating. The corrector 45K (talk) 02:58, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The current source is an actual developer of the game, which, in my opinion, trumps what a brand manager decades later says. Sergecross73 msg me

Yamaguchi, he barely had participation in Sonic 2 and Sonic CD, he did not even have participation in the story, he only designed the graphics of the games. He wasn't even in charge of creating the design of Tails, he just won an internal company competition. I don't even work on the 8-bit Sonic 2, which would be the first real appearance of Tails. however, Yamaguchi carried so little weight that Sega put the Tails name against his will.

And in many trailers of the 2011 of Sonic CD explicitily says that Sonic CD is a direct prequel of Sonic 4, here: youtu.be/nHk6jOQLFBA "Continue the adventure with Sonic 4 avalaible now" youtu.be/24tjOBMEFCs "See where Sonic 4 began" The corrector 45K (talk) 04:38, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

To just fan the flames for a sec... I do wonder if this info is worth including at all. The Sonic CD plot has no connection to other games; it doesn't seem to really make any difference to anything except Sonic nerds arguing about timelines; and doesn't feel like it's important for understanding the subject. That, plus the fact that we have sources (admittedly of different weights) that disagree, makes me wonder if we should just omit it. Popcornfud (talk) 11:11, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
100% agree, why does a game like this even need a plot summary? It's not story/narrative-driven and you could probably condense the entire section into two small sentences if it has to remain at all. This just feels like a forced necessity because other game articles have them. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 23:13, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I generally shy away from this sort of content too, but the points of contention are pretty minor - short sentences or sentence fragments even. I don’t really think it crosses the threshold of fancruft at this point. And I believe it passes it’s GA in this state too. Sergecross73 msg me 01:07, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's not just an argument about fancruft, though. It's about whether it really aids the article, and besides the sources disagree. To me it doesn't make a difference if it's just a couple of short sentences or an entire section - it either helps the article or doesn't. Popcornfud (talk) 10:30, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I was talking more about my own philosophy. I’ve spent a decade plus now removing some of the insane fancruft plot stuff. "Sonic runs five steps, and turns to Tails and smiles. Tails gives him the thumbs up. Knuckles arrives on scene. He flexed at Sonic. Sonic frowns. Tails tenses up. A fight ensues, with Sonic throwing the first punch, a right hook that hits Knuckles stomach” - when “Sonic and Tails encounter Knuckles for a fight" is plenty sufficient. But that’s what I’m saying - this is more like the latter. A brief statement on the premise of the entire premise of the game is worth mentioning. Could be reworked into the dev section if we truly can’t reconcile which version is correct - briefly mentioning both commentaries on it. Sergecross73 msg me 16:33, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely agreed that the basic story premise of the game - Sonic goes to Little Planet to rescue Amy from Metal Sonic and Eggman - should be covered. We could probably condense that to one or two sentences and put it in the gameplay section ("Players control Sonic, who must rescue Amy Rose..." etc). Popcornfud (talk) 19:00, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, it will the best thing. There's not a real accurate where Sonic CD goes, it is so fructuating, so the best thing is omit anything relationed with a cronologycal position. Just eliminate that from the plot for stop cunfusion. The corrector 45K (talk) 12:13, 4 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do not revert again until there is a consensus to move forward with your edits. You’ve already broken WP:3RR. If I wasn’t involved in this dispute, I’d block you from editing. If Ann other admin catches you, they still could. Cut it out and focus on the discussion. Sergecross73 msg me 01:00, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A single off-hand remark in a third-party guidebook for a different game does not constitute a reliable source, especially when Sega has contradicted said remark. For the sake of clarity, the plot section should not make any assertion about the game's placement in the chronology.Stephen C Wells (talk) 16:56, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sega has never contradicted the remark. It came directly from one of the developers. JOEBRO64 17:01, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The reference for that claim is a guidebook written by Corey Sandler for a third-party publisher. That is not one of the developers.Stephen C Wells (talk) 17:04, 19 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Removing Chronology from Plot[edit]

At what point does it become acceptable to remove that line about the chronology from the plot description? Because by my count, there are more people who think it should be removed than think it should be kept. The reference cited in the actual section is non-canon, and the source of the original claim given in the development section is too ambiguous to justify asserting the statement as fact. I think the line should be removed. Stephen C Wells (talk) 22:57, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I support deleting it - it's not at all important and basically changes nothing. Popcornfud (talk) 23:06, 20 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Desert Dazzle Zone[edit]

A lot of Sonic Games seem to have a scrapped zone, and Sonic CD is no exception. As well as R2, Another zone has been found. This zone, known as Desert Dazzle, According to Whitehead, was cut so that the game didn't stray too far from its original form. However, an image of it is still featured in-game. The zone was re-incarnated in the 2011 mobile remake of Sonic CD. It was also the inspiration for Mirage Saloon Zone for Sonic Mania. SonicTails4664 (talk) 16:19, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can't tell if you're intending to add this to the article, or if you're just musing your random thoughts like you often do on talk pages (even if you're not supposed to) but in order for any if that to be added to the article, you need a reliable source that verifies it. Sergecross73 msg me 18:12, 10 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

"Sonic boom cd" listed at Redirects for discussion[edit]

An editor has identified a potential problem with the redirect Sonic boom cd and has thus listed it for discussion. This discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2022 October 12#Sonic boom cd until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Pizzaplayer219TalkContribs 12:33, 12 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Music section needs work[edit]

I'm unable to verify all the claims in the Music section in the sources I can access, and there are some unreliable sources, such as Discogs, which fails WP:USERG. Popcornfud (talk) 16:01, 24 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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