Talk:Sports in the United States/Archive 1

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Boxing should be higher ranked

Yes the sport is not at its highest right now but considering for much of American history it was the most popular sport going it deserves more than a one word mention. It's also more popular than Gaelic football in America, I'll say that much. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.46.98.52 (talk) 14:19, 15 May 2010 (UTC)

Curling

I removed curling from other popular team sports because it should not qualify as popular.

Lacrosse?

I recognize (having lived in Md.) that lacrosse is a major sport in parts of the country. However, there are lots of other sports more significant than lacrosse that don't have their own section, such as bowling and tennis. Should we really have a section just for lacrosse? -- Mwalcoff 23:54, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

There are over 60 D-1 teams, its played on the high school level and lower in many states, and there are two professional leagues. My vote would be to restore it. Cornell Rockey 00:08, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
Softball, cross country, swimming, golf, tennis, track and volleyball are all played at more D-1 schools than lacrosse [1]. I have nothing against metioning LAX, but I wouldn't give it the same level of heading as the "major" sports, lest people think it's at that level of popularity. -- Mwalcoff 08:45, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

US article on featured candidate

Just to let you guys know, the United States article is on featured article candidates list, so you can cast your vote there- or not.--Ryz05 19:45, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

Keeping the page short

The reason I had deleted the rugby paragraph was not because of its quality but because of the need to keep this page at a reasonable size. If we have a separate paragraph for every sport, no matter how uncommon in the U.S., the page will get to be 100K. For that reason, when it comes to team sports, I think we ought to have paragraphs on the "big four" plus soccer. -- Mwalcoff 14:59, 7 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh. Yeah I understand that the page should not be huge, but that international section is mainly about cricket with a mention of AFL. Rugby has been in the US for a long time and I think it is notable enough to have its own paragraph. Cvene64 01:40, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
Why don't we add a sentence about rugby to the international section rather than give it its own section? -- Mwalcoff 01:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
If it is under such a heading as "International sports", it kind of makes it difficult for a user to find rugby quickly. Also unlike the other international sports (as far as I can see), Rugby has a fair few US related articles and content, so I think it needs its own paragraph. It really doesnt make a big difference, it has notable content, so I reckon there should be a rugby heading. - Also, there is a bit of content about Rugby League in the US - although no one has put a link in this article yet. But I do think a "Rugby" heading is justified...Cvene64 04:51, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
It was "international sports" because Americans refer to sports like rugby and cricket as "international" or "world" sports. The fact that there is a lot of notable content on American rugby in Wikipedia does not make up for the fact that the sport is very, very minor in the scheme of things in the U.S. As you pointed out yourself in your contribution, it's not even recognized by the NCAA, putting it at the same level as ultimate frisbee. If you are accurate in that 60,000 Americans play rugby, that's an insignificant number in a country of 300 million people. By comparison, 11 million Americans play soccer, which ranks only 20th among "Series I" sports in the U.S. Statistical Abstract. Lacrosse, volleyball, golf, tennis, boxing, gymnastics, bowling, swimming, track and about 50 other sports are bigger in the U.S. than rugby is, yet do not have their own paragraphs in the article. As I said above, if we gave all of those sports their own paragraphs, the page would be a mile long. -- Mwalcoff 01:33, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Soccer section

The claim that MLS soccer in the U.S. has a higher attendence ranking than NHL hockey is way off according to these numbers. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_attendances, I'm going to change that sentence. 24.48.127.51 21:11, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

As of last season MLS attendance surpassed the NHL. Also it should be noted that first of all MLS is on a similar popularity level as the NHL. Secondly of the people that follow profesional soccer in the US half follow the domestic league with the other half following foreign leagues. Which mean soccer ona profesional level surpases the NHL.

Also, Internation soccer is enourmously popular in the United States. US national games reguarly sell out 60K + stadiums. Foreign countries, particularly southern american also do very well attendance and popularity wise.

Thanks for the comment. First, sign your posts like this ~~~~ at the end so we can easily see who you are and when you posted. Second, MLS attendance figures (I'm an MLS fan) are notoriously unreliable and even more prone to inflation than other American sports (which are unreliable themselves in all sports but the NFL which is so popular it doesn't need to lie about their gates), so any statement about NHL/MLS attendance I would take with a grain of salt. Check the Talk:Major League Soccer page if you don't believe me. Soccer seems to be the only sport where viewership of foreign games appears to be an option, so I don't know if I'd use that in a comparison between the sports. As far as USMNT games regularly selling out huge football stadiums, I think that might merit inclusion. -- Grant.Alpaugh 05:01, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

The Dream Team

After the Dream Team for basketball is mentioned there is a list of notable basketball players, a number of whom were not on the Dream Team. This seems like it could confuse some people who are not familiar with the history of basketball. Perhaps it would be less confusing if there was a sentence or two that discussed the Dream Team and the social significance of it.

Overdemocratization of sports

What I mean to say is, the page makes very little distinction between the most popular sports and the least ones. Had I not lived in the US, and if I came here to find out about what's most popular here, I would have left without the slightest idea to my question, which is really what this article is about. The article puts soccer in line with baseball and football, and hunting and fishing with basketball. I would make a change, but I'm low on time. I suggest we reorganize this page to feature the most popular sports first, and then the others later. I know there are polls on this sort of thing. The Evil Spartan 00:42, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Regarding External Links

I recently noticed that the external link that I had added was removed. That site, www.FindSportsNow.com, helps people find sports leagues and recreation within the United States. Now, if it belongs anywhere it should definitely be in "Sports in the United States" and "Sports Leagues". I can understand that there might not be an exact need to have it in every specific sport, but I sure do think it would be beneficial to the user. If you have ever tried to find sports in your hometown, I think you would know what kind of headache it is. I'm from Southern California and that site helped me out tremendously. I feel like that site is justified to be on each of those sites I added it to. I do hope that others agree. 68.7.69.246 (talk) 09:12, 16 December 2007 (UTC) Forrest 12/16/2007

cricket

"For example, association football (soccer) or cricket, the most popular sports in most countries, is a minor sport in the U.S."

Cricket is not a popular sport in most countries. Just in a few former british colonies. In fact, basketball (an american sport) is more popular than cricket worldwide.

It means that the favourite sport in most countries is either football or cricket, not that they are both necessarily popular in all countries. Jetekus (talk) 23:36, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

What the hell that makes no sense. cricket is wierd and only played in former british colonies and soccer is only played in europe, Africa, Asia, south america, Central America as a popular sport. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.75.154.39 (talk) 17:12, 8 August 2008 (UTC)


Proposed Move

I think that we shoudl move this page to "Sport in the United States" to keep it consistent with other articles like 1) and 2). Thanks,Genius101 Wizard (talk) 00:48, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm actually going to go ahead and do it, as it is a minor move. Thanks,Genius101 Wizard (talk) 00:58, 6 July 2008 (UTC)

Moved it back to Sports; per the Manual of Style, we should use American English on American articles. AlexiusHoratius (talk) 06:39, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Horse racing

This article needs a section on horse racing. It was at one time the most popular spectator sport in the country and still has a large following. The U.S. is still one of the major centers for horse racing with some of the most prestigious races. —D. Monack talk 04:38, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

When did Scandinavia become a nation?

[...]one factor in the pioneering success and popularity of the women's national team, and the United States is one of only a few nations (along with China, Canada, and Scandinavia) where the women's national team is more successful than the men's team

I wasn't aware that Scandinavia was now considered a nation, did someone create a union without informing anyone? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.241.30.206 (talk) 16:26, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Notable players

Each of the sections on football, baseball, basketball, hockey, and soccer list a bunch of "notable" players, although there are no references or criterion for inclusion. Is it really that important to have such lists for every major sport? Instead, articles should link to pages such as List of Pro Football Hall of Fame inductees or List of members of the Baseball Hall of Fame because it's rather POV to list certain athletes while excluding others. --Apollo1758 (talk) 21:31, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Agreed (even though I partook in such edits a few months ago--don't know what I was thinking). I do think some truly historic players/coaches are worth mentioning (Jackie Robinson comes to mind), but other than that, yeah, no reason to list every player that's ever done something. Jesse0986 (talk) 22:38, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Soccer is nr. 1 sport in the world and not only in Europe and South America. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.87.87.191 (talk) 18:55, 13 July 2010 (UTC)

Manny Ramirez can be deleted as a current notable player in the baseball section. 31.151.112.62 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:39, 27 April 2011 (UTC).

"Major" Sports Leagues

Only a few of these "major" sports leagues listed are in fact significant; as with many such sections, this section has turned into somewhat of a laundry list with very little regard for the notability of the items. I believe we should revise this list to reflect the relative importance of the leagues; in addition, instead of the term "major" (which implies professionals), I think the term should be changed to something along the lines of "notable" or "significant". In this effort, I whould suggest making a set list of parameters for separate levels of notability; here are my preliminary suggestions:

"Very Significant"

Major mass media exposure for most events
Large nationwide following and marketing
Significant financial impact and importance in primary market areas
Fully professional players or players compensated with scholarships to accredited universities

"Mid-Level Significance"

Mass media exposure only for a limited number of events and/or regional media following for most events
Regional following and marketing and/or minor nationwide following
Financial contribution to immediate marketing area
Mix of fully professional and semi-professional players

"Low Significance"

Sparse regional media coverage
Niche following and/or minor regional following
Little financial contribution to immediate marketing area
Mostly amateur or semi-professional players

Obviously, there are some leagues (MLS, WNBA, Champions Tour to name a few), which could arguably be put into two of these categories, but I think that this is a significant improvement over the current list. Any help with this would be much appreciated.

One last note, some of the leagues on this list are not even active; these should be removed completely. JakeH07 (talk) 22:18, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I understand and am sympathetic to where you are going. But wonder whether we don't perhaps need RS support for making any such distinctions, to avoid OR. I expect that it would be easy, btw, to address some of the issue -- there is a fair amount of material out there, I believe, that indicates that the top four sports in the US (by whatever measure ... I believe in terms of fans or the like, not participation) are baseball (America's Game -- you should be able to find support for that phrase), football, basketball, and (in fourth place) hockey. Participation stats may not mirror fans stats, in terms of the top four (perhaps, for example, walking or running is high on the list), but I haven't looked at that issue of late.--Epeefleche (talk) 22:30, 22 February 2011 (UTC)
That's a good point about OR, I think it may be easier to separate the groups based off pre-existing categories (i.e. "Big Four" leagues, Other Professional Leagues, and Amateur/Semi-Pro Leagues). This would be fairly easy to find RS for and would be more objective than my original method.JakeH07 (talk) 04:48, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
I would think that if you re-work your suggestion along the lines of RS-criteria, even most of the curmudgeons should grumpily agree.--Epeefleche (talk) 06:15, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
I think I'll give that a try. At the very least it will provide the list with some basic organization. JakeH07 (talk) 20:33, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

YOU MISSED SOMETHING

Yes, you forgot to speak about that unknown sport Track & Field. Perhaps it slipped your mind because it is only the most participated sport in high schools across the country?? You also forgot to put baseball on the top paragraph as one of America's favorite sports. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.228.108.183 (talk) 16:19, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Where are the most popular sport activities?

The U.S. Census Bureau lists exercise walking as number one, swimming as number two, bike riding as number three, and equipment exercise as number four. Go see the report: http://www.census.gov/prod/2/gen/96statab/parks.pdf Bdubay (talk) 03:26, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Popularity of Collage Sports by Participation - NCAA

I just finished compiling the latest 2009-2010 "NCAA® Sports Sponsorship and Participation Rates Report" (PDF). data into an Open Office writer table sorted by popularity of participation. I'm not sure how to quickly add tables into Wikipedia yet, but Maybe a top 5 or 10 would be helpful for people. Anyway, I'm hope the data and reference will be useful for this article.

Google Docs

Open Office File Sempi (talk) 16:25, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

They normally don't wear shoes?

"Soccer, commonly known as "football" (see names for association football) in countries where they normally don't wear shoes" - I must dispute the fact that countries that call football "football" normally don't wear shoes, I live in the UK and after conducting some research I have found that the vast majority of us wear shoes. I can't speak for the rest of Europe or the majority of the rest of the world (excluding US and Canada) but I seriously doubt there is any correlation between shoe wearing and use of the word "football". Possibly needs editing. Ktoc9 (talk) 13:26, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Changed Ktoc9 (talk) 22:28, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

For the record, that was vandalism, not a serious edit, even if it is funny. - BilCat (talk) 19:31, 21 March 2016 (UTC)

NHL is a US league?

NHL is a US league with "participation of Canadian teams"? Are you sure? BadaBoom (talk) 16:51, 16 April 2013 (UTC)

Baseball section needs an extreme makeover

The current version of the baseball section is terrible. Just one short paragraph of text, and then several long paragraphs where every Wiki editor has listed their favorite players. A short narrative description of baseball and MLB needs to be added. And the long list of players needs to be cut to only the 5 or so players with the most meaningful impact on the game (e.g., Babe Ruth, Jackie Robinson, and just a few others). Hopefully someone knowledgeable about baseball will take on this project. Barryjjoyce (talk) 01:49, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Soccer/MLS not one of the Major Professional Sports/Leagues?

When discussing the popularity of different sports in the United States one must be objective so as to not include our own preconceived biases. This means listing most popular sports/leagues based almost purely on factual data. For this reason I find it difficult to understand why one can include the NHL while excluding the MLS in the intro to this page regarding most popular leagues and make the statement "The top professional soccer league in the United States, Major League Soccer, has yet to reach the popularity levels of the top four US sports leagues." While scrolling through the page one would be hard pressed to find a statistic which puts the NHL/hockey higher in standing than the MLS/soccer. In the comparison of the popularity of the two sports I see two reasons why the MLS could be excluded being 1. the leagues relatively recent increase in popularity and 2. the leagues lack in being the best league in the world for the given sport. It is important to realize that neither of these factors should effect a given sport's current popularity in a given country because this page does not regard historical popularity and there exist many countries where soccer by far the most popular while having a relatively amateur domestic leagues. The NHL has 10 more sports teams than the MLS though it is important to note that only 23 of these teams are based in the US compared to the 17 US based MLS teams (which are set to raise to 21 US based teams by 2020). Though it in not mentioned in this article, the NHL overshadows the MLS is most fiscal figures including value of teams, pay of players, etc. This being factored in, is it fair to say the MLS/soccer has not reached the popularity of hockey with the following facts considered:

MLS beats NHL in average attendance and number of national television channel contracts.

MLS doubles NHL in number of people who choose the respective sport as their favorite.

Soccer MORE THAN TRIPLES Ice Hockey in the television viewing record, number of participants, number of NCAA D1 Teams, and number of states that sponsor/number of participants of the sport at the high school level.

Soccer is also 3rd most popular in the country in number of participants (surpassing American Football), number of NCAA D1 Teams (surpassing American Football), and number of states that sponsor the sport at the high school level (surpassing Baseball).

      • I have not hand chosen these facts to favor soccer, I have merely re-listed each statistic comparing the two in this article.

James Falcetano (talk) 00:38, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello, James! The discussion about which sports are major or not is long.
First of all, we must describe a sport as major or not according to what reliable sources say. We can't decide for them.
In addition to that, we can show numbers of attendance and television ratings of professional sports (and NCAA), and we can show numbers of participants and fans by sport according to sources.
As you say, we must mention the time factor. Popularity can increase and decrease along the time.
You mention some important facts, and it's perfectly reasonable to include the in the article.
--NaBUru38 (talk) 19:14, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

Media

The section "Sports media in the United States" consists of one factual statement after another and none of them are referenced. Such statements need a reliable reference. I tagged some. but not all. because tagging all would make the section totally unreadable.
Nick Beeson (talk) 12:31, 28 February 2016 (UTC)

Soccer is not part of the Big Four

Why is Soccer being listed as a major sports league? The league makes nowhere near as much moneys as the other leagues, has no large scale TV airing, small time stadiums, small viewership numbers,small league compared to the Big Four in terms of teams. Thats just some of the reasons Soccer has a long ways to go and should be moved to the lower Tier sports section. NHL, NFL, NBA and MLB are the Big Four.24.44.69.250 (talk) 03:32, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Major professional sports leagues in the United States and Canada page has it right. Big Four section and MLS under lower tier page.24.44.69.250 (talk) 03:40, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Uh, Hello; Soccer is THE most rapidly growing sport in the US AND is one of the three sports I have refed at Mountainvile Academy — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.60.69.15 (talk) 15:18, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

Body of article contradicts intro

I just tried to bring the introduction into line with sections 4 and 9 of this article which clearly state there are 5 major league sports in the U.S. based based on television viewership and several other benchmarks. MLS and the NHL are roughly tied in overall popularity as spectator sports, with soccer having a much higher public participation rate than ice hockey. I took this to constitute an editorial consensus as to the correct number of major leagues, and that the intro needed to be brought into line. If, instead, there is already a consensus that the intro and sections 4 and 9 should differ on this point, I think it needs to be clearly stated, explained, and justified. This article doesn't use the term "big four" in its discussion of the major leagues, nor should it. "Big four" is just an outdated, jingoistic, and somewhat dismissive and chauvinistic bit of jargon that is based strictly on revenue and ignores overall popularity. ChrisCarss Former24.108.99.31 (talk) 11:15, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

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Makes no sense

"Post-merger, Indycar continues to remain with slight gains per year, despite a product that has become compelling." Compelling product is expected to lead to gains in fan support, so this sentence is nonsensical. --Khajidha (talk) 14:31, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Draft:Athletics in the United States I think should be merged into this article since Athletics in the United States has also being merged into this article also what are other people's opinions?Dwanyewest (talk) 14:50, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I have had a change of heart this discussion should be moved to Track and field in the United States. Dwanyewest (talk) 15:08, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

RFC: Most popular sports in the United States: Should basketball be included?

This section would more accurately be titled "baseball vs. football vs. basketball". In this article, it is said that 11% of Americans prefer basketball as their favorite sport, versus 9% for baseball/softball. And in the same table, it is said that 30 million Americans play basketball, surpassing the figure for baseball/softball (29M) and football (9M).

In the article it is said that "Certain teams of both sports...have cultivated famously loyal fan bases across the country." The same can be said of basketball teams: the Lakers, Clippers, Warriors and others.

This section gives the impression of America as a two-sport nation, when it is really more of a three-sport nation. At the college level, football and (men's) basketball are by far the most popular sports.

In addition, this entire section is based off a post on WrestleZone Forums, which isn't exactly a reliable source for this sort of information (especially since it is unrelated to wrestling). It is a forum, written by random people. The only other sources are a couple articles about the NFL's concussion problem and the "best fanbases" in the NFL. No reliable sources relating to baseball.

Should we delete the entire section, or expand it to include basketball and reliable sources? Sanjay7373 (talk) 05:47, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Not to mention, the NBA has a higher revenue than MLB, according to the "Sports media" section, and above the words "baseball vs. football" it cites polls about the popularity of various sports in the USA.

@Sanjay7373: what is your brief and neutral statement? At over 2,400 bytes, the statement above (from the {{rfc}} tag to the next timestamp) is far too long for Legobot (talk · contribs) to handle, and so it is not being shown correctly at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Society, sports, and culture. The RfC will also not be publicised through WP:FRS until a shorter statement is provided. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 08:41, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
You cannot do this and expect it to work. As noted in the notice that you were shown when editing, it's a bot-built page, and Legobot will merely overwrite your edit with the correct page content. You need to either shorten the statement on this page, or add a shorter one before the existing long statement. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:55, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Yes, that worked. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 23:02, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
It has been two days since I shortened my comment and still nobody has responded. Should this section be deleted, or not? Should we expand it to include basketball and reliable sources? Sanjay7373 (talk) 00:00, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
First, never delete a thread that somebody else (me) has posted to - see WP:TPO. Second, RfCs run for thirty days, during which time messages like this will be sent out to FRS subscribers at intervals, so give it time. If you really want to end discussion early, see WP:RFCEND. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:58, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
I wasn’t going to delete your thread, I was talking about deleting the “baseball vs. football” section. Sanjay7373 (talk) 18:13, 9 December 2019 (UTC)
It has been TEN DAYS since the last reply, and no response even with an RFC. Is anyone going to respond, please? Sanjay7373 (talk) 05:16, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Sports in the United States

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Sports in the United States's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Most popular sports in the United States: Section needs to be heavily reviewed

The first paragraph refers to the "broadest definition of sports." You'll see it starts talking about walking, hiking, running. I find that to be rather irrelevant. If I'm looking up most popular sports in the United States, I'm looking for organized sports like Basketball, not exercise and activity. The section should not start with that. It should be moved lower.

Then there's the second paragraph. It starts off talking about the most popular "spectator sport." The next section, "Sports leagues in the United States," actually has a table showing average and annual attendance for each league. Although it's only referring to the leagues and in person attendance, I feel like it would be far more fitting for it to be in "Most popular sports..." instead. When I read, "Sports leagues in the United States," I'm expecting a list or something and that's really all it should have. The table, although informative, feels out of place.

Then there's this:

Men, show a stronger preference for football than women, conservatives a stronger preference than liberals, and those over 35 a stronger preference than those under 35. In all groups, however, football is still the most popular. Basketball and soccer are more popular among liberals than conservatives.

What is this even supposed to mean? Not to mention the grammar, syntax, and structure are everywhere. This article is talking about sports. It has nothing to do with politics. It should simply list the most popular sports played by the general population overall. And if so desired to show sport popularity by age, gender, and whatever else there is data on, a separate table or paragraph, if not a new section depending on how much data there is available, should be created. There should also be more discrepancy between most popular sports played(by general public), most popular sports watched on TV, and most popular sports viewed live. I'm sure whatever sources there are available will be all separate with regards to that, so it should be made clear what this is talking about.

I know there's another section on this talk page mentioning "Most popular sports in the United States" but I'm pretty sure it's talking about something else. EditingDuck (talk) 02:42, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Reference named "auto2":

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 09:35, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Image vote/discussion

See Talk:United States#Sports montage vote!

I believe the consensus decision there for the image or montage that will represent the sports section of the United States article should also be applied as the lead image of this article. Since there seems to be issues with establishing a lead image here, it’s simple, convenient, and sensible to make the discussion applicable for both articles. Mrbeastmodeallday (talk) 06:17, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

The location of the Carolina Hurricanes is in Raleigh, not Charlotte. The map needs to reflect this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:4C4C:154D:EC00:EC72:364E:2311:6576 (talk) 09:12, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Add Pickleball

Pickleball is a fast rising sport here in the U.S and is now very popular with many. And also has leagues so it deserves to be recognized 2601:603:1980:5CA0:75CD:4DAD:8C6A:71F2 (talk) 05:33, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

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