Talk:St Hugh's College, Oxford/Archive 1

Archive 1

Unreferenced material about living people

Whatever the result of the JCR and MCR Presidents discussion above, where living people are mentioned the article needs to cite reliable, verifiable sources. There are currently no references for JCR presidents before 2010 and all the MCR presidents, so I've deleted those data (wikipedia's SOFIXIT guideline doesn't apply to BLP material). - Pointillist (talk) 22:51, 27 November 2010 (UTC)

JCR and MCR Presidents

Messages left at Wikipedia talk:Notability (people), Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Universities and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject University of Oxford.

Two questions:

1. Should the current holders of the position be included in the infobox?
2. Should there be a list of any or all of the holders of the position in the article?

On point 1, {{Infobox Oxford college}} does not (now) have fields for including the name of the JCR/MCR Presidents. It seems to me to be wrong to override the template parameters like this to include them in other fields.

On point 2, my removal of the list of JCR and MCR presidents (none of whom appear to be independently notable) was undone on the basis that "WP:NLIST specifically states "a list within an article of past school presidents can contain all past presidents, not just those who are independently notable." However, I very much doubt that WP:NLIST's use of the term "president" means "student president", but is more likely to be an Americanism for the academic head of the school. Thoughts? Bencherlite^Talk 13:30, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

On point 1 - if there is a consensus against including that info then fair enough. I included it because I thought the current JCR/MCR president is a notable member of the college and thus that is an important bit of information.

On point 2 - I believe that "school presidents" refers to presidents of the student body. Headteachers in the USA are commonly referred to as 'principals', not presidents. In any case, I would respectfully argue that it is appropriate to include the list of JCR and MCR presidents as they are heads of the respective student organisations at the college and have an integral and important role in the college. 129.67.39.116 (talk) 13:52, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I AGREE WITH NICK! I mean, er, 129.67.39.116. Keep it in. Trainspotter12 (talk) 14:49, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

This isn't a vote, it's a discussion. Do you have any reasons? Bencherlite^Talk 14:54, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I would generally support including current JCR and MCR presidents. I don't see any strong reason to have historic lists, but if we do they should be hived off as separate list articles, not cluttering up the main text. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 17:36, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Being American, I had assumed that "presidents" meant the head of the institution (college or university), not the student government. Most K-12 aricles covering schools in the United States do not list past principles/headmasters at all. Racepacket (talk) 18:33, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Naming the current presidents doesn't add anything encyclopedic, particularly if the JCR website link is already available in the infobox. I'd (mildly) prefer to exclude the names: partly because I think getting your name into Wikipedia is the wrong reason to become JCR president. Of course, that isn't a valid ground for objecting, but it's difficult to find an authoritative precedent either way. The colleges of the University of Durham articles seem to list JCR/MCR presidents, but articles about Cambridge colleges and Harvard's Houses don't. Oxford's largest college (464 undergraduates at St Catz) is much smaller than a U.S. college (e.g. 4,198 undergraduates at Dartmouth College), and AFAICS the Dartmouth article's infobox uses President in the sense of the academic head anyway. Is a college JCR sufficiently notable to have its own article? OUBC and CUBC have their own articles that don't name their presidents. - Pointillist (talk) 18:46, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Here's a bunch of university colleges that have current and/or past JCR/MCR presidents listed on their wikipedia entry: [1] [2] [3] [4][5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18]. It is also worth noting that the infobox for Durham colleges specifically includes sections for both JCR and MCR Presidents ([19]) - and I note every single college has the current President written in. Presumably if JCR/MCR Presidents are deleted from this article, the infobox for Durham would need to be put up for review along with every other Oxford/Cambridge college that lists JCR/MCR Presidents?

In response to Pointillist, JCR/MCR information is usually dealt with on the main college page because they are organisations within the college - indeed an integral part of college life. By contrast OUBC/CUBC are separate sporting clubs that run independently of colleges/the university.

I am in favour of including the JCR/MCR Presidents. From what it looks like, they are indeed notable when talking about the college. I note that no-one has raised an objection to lists of college Principals (whose official titles are often 'President of the SCR'). Enriquefan (talk) 01:34, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia is WP:NOT a list. WP:NN should not be included. We should not be "looking for" opportunities to include people in college articles. It is about the college, not individuals per se. Stick to WP:TOPIC. There are other forums for nn people, Facebook, etc. The encyclopedia isn't it. Student7 (talk) 21:01, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

User:Student7 - do you have a contribution to make to the actual debate, rather than just rolling off a list of Wikipedia policies? If you look at the first post, you would have seen that 'WP:NLIST specifically states "a list within an article of past school presidents can contain all past presidents, not just those who are independently notable"'. So that renders irrelevant your citing of WP:NOT and WP:NN. Further points have been made above on the notability question above, in terms of JCR/MCR Presidents playing an important and notable role within their college. Seeing as this may be the case, I don't understand where you're coming from by just blandly stating WP:TOPIC - if JCR/MCR Presidents are important positions, surely it's very much part of the topic. Finally your statement that "we should not be "looking for" opportunities to include people in college articles" isn't helpful at all - no-one is 'looking for' an opportunity, we're trying to have a debate about the question on its merits. JimBowden (talk) 10:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

The use of the term "president" in WP:NLIST is meant to signify the head of an academic institution rather than the head of a student organisation, as has been noted here and at Wikipedia_talk:Notability_(people). The president of the JCR isn't the president of the college, so WP:NLIST only supports the inclusion of a list of past principals. Having said that I don't think it's unreasonable to include the current JCR and MCR presidents. Hut 8.5 13:05, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Note that we have the separate article List of Vice-Chancellors of the University of Oxford rather than cluttering up the main article. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 13:46, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

@JimBowden, using Wikipedia policies and guidelines is an excellent way of contributing to a discussion; at the moment, the "pro" camp's arguments look to me like "OTHERSTUFFEXISTS" and "ILIKEIT". @Enriquefan, please find me a single head of an Oxbridge college whose official title is "President of the SCR". They are Principals/Masters/Rectors/Wardens/Deans etc of the college and are on the whole notable because of their distinguished careers inside or outside academia, rather than simply because they are head of the college. They also generally hold office for many years, in some cases a few decades, and have more influence over the college than a single JCR President. JCR Presidents, on the other hand, are not independently notable, and change frequently (at least every year, sometimes more often with resignations). Like Hut 8.5, I don't mind mentioning the current office holders, perhaps in the infobox or the "college life" section (but not the entire committee, just the presidents), but a boring list of dozens of names (if it could even be completed) would be out of balance with the rest of the article. If any past presidents have articles, that can be mentioned as well. Bencherlite^Talk 11:26, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Bencherlite, please understand - I was not criticising Student7 for listing policies per se. I was criticising him for listing policies without connecting them to the debate at hand. He has not responded at all to the point that JCR/MCR Presidents are notable due to them leading the student organisation in the college (who are, after all, the people that the college exists for). Further evidence for JCR/MCR Presidents being notable can be found, for example, in the fact that the St Hugh's College website lists specifically lists the JCR and MCR committees as important people under its contacts section [20], and the fact that the JCR and MCR run their own websites. On the listing point, Student7 ignored the point made above that "WP:NLIST specifically states 'a list within an article of past school presidents can contain all past presidents, not just those who are independently notable'". As has also been said by Jonathan A Jones, there is a List of Vice-Chancellors of the University of Oxford. Student7 simply used Wikipedia policies to make three assertions (JCR/MCR Presidents not being notable; a list of JCR/MCR Presidents not being in line with Wikipedia policy; and JCR/MCR Presidents not being relevant to St Hugh's College article) without backing these assertions up with any evidence or details, nor responding to the points already raised.

Furthermore, I take issue with you saying the "the 'pro' camp's arguments look to me like "OTHERSTUFFEXISTS" and "ILIKEIT"". I assume the point in other users (Enriquefan and Jonathan A Jones) in pointing out 18 other college articles and the List of Vice-Chancellors of the University of Oxford is to show that there is a consensus that JCR/MCR Presidents should be included in college articles. If you are opposed to JCR/MCR Presidents being included here, presumably you are going to go to have to delete the same information from those other 18 articles too? Finally, your point about a list being "boring" seems, with respect, to be a better example of ILIKEIT than any of the comments of the 'pro' camp. JimBowden (talk) 12:15, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

They are not "notable" in Wikipedia terms of notability. It's hardly surprising that a college JCR has a website; that doesn't make the JCR President notable. Again, it's hardly surprising that the college might list the JCR committee as people to contact; that doesn't make the JCR President notable. (The list is on the JCR's website, not the main college website incidentally - which also gives email addresses for the catering manager, finance office, head porter and the grounds manager, so I hope you're not arguing that those fine individuals are notable too...?) You've ignored the point that WP:NLIST has been thought by more people to refer to academic presidents than to student common room presidents. And, yes, a list of potentially dozens of names with no articles about them and nothing about each individual apart from perhaps the degree they studied is a boring contribution to the article, and would be grossly disproportionate to the rest of the article. The list of Vice-Chancellors was given as an example of not swamping the main article; and as university VCs are much more notable than student CR presidents, you can't say that the fact that a separate list of Oxford VCs exists means that St Hugh's JCR/MCR Presidents should be included in this article.

The list of 18 other articles is interesting. Very few of them are Oxford colleges, incidentally, which (if you want to make an argument about consensus from silence, which would be to ignore the point of "OTHERSTUFFEXISTS"...) would tend to suggest that there's in fact no consensus for including such information in Oxford articles. See Oriel College, Oxford (an FA) and Jesus College, Oxford (a GA) which have managed to get by without lists of old presidents. You ask: "Presumably you are going to go to have to delete the same information from those other 18 articles too?" Well, I've made a start on that list of 18 colleges (mostly Durham) and removed various unsourced lists per WP:BLP (as Pointillist reminds us below, compliance with that is not optional). But, in the end, as WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS points out, the fact that similar information is in other articles doesn't mean it ought to be here as well. In fact, in many of the examples from Durham, it's just the current holder and just in the infobox, which is fine by me (if there's consensus to reinsert that parameter in the Oxford college infobox) - thus providing no support at all for the "argument" that there is consensus to include lists of old presidents. Bencherlite^Talk 13:23, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

To clarify, I think a case could be made either way on including (or not) current JCR and MCR presidents, probably in the infobox (interestingly Brasenose College, Oxford does have them in the infobox source, but they are not displayed, and are probably out of date). I don't think a case can be made for a list of past presidents, but if such a list were to be prepared it should be spun off as a separate list article. Similarly any lists of past heads of house should be in separate lists. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 19:41, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

A list of past presidents of a college JCR would likely be deleted on notability grounds. Hut 8.5 22:51, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

Probably true, which is a good argument for not having such a list anywhere. I suspect a list of Heads of House would survive, as many are individually notable. Jonathan A Jones (talk) 07:22, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

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Cecilia Ady: potential source or potential article?

While delving through the list of special collections at the Bodleian Library, I came across a collection entitld Papers relating to events at St. Hugh's College, Oxford, following the dismissal of Cecilia M. Ady. It'd be interesting to know what that was about: anyone know if there's any secondary sources on the dismissal of Cecilia Ady? Was this a big controversy? If so, it might be worth having an article on the topic. This entry about J. M. C. Toynbee said that she resigned in protest at the dismissal of Ady. I'll probably go and have a look for some more material when I've got more time. But in case I forget, I just thought I'd leave this as a possible lead for someone to follow. —Tom Morris (talk) 13:19, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Some more sources - JSTOR, and pages 4 to 6 of this PDF. —Tom Morris (talk) 13:53, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

For more future reference, there's lots of details in Penny Griffin, ed. (1986). St. Hugh's : one hundred years of women's education in Oxford. Basingstoke: Macmillan. ISBN 0333384865.. —Tom Morris (talk) 15:19, 19 October 2012 (UTC)

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