Talk:St Kilda

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Re revert to my previous edit (changing 'Saint' to 'St' in the text). The difficulty is that 'Saint Kilda' does not mean anything at all. To put it another way, 'St Kilda' is not an abbreviation. There is some material on the St Kilda, Scotland article about this. The problem would be resolved if 'Saint Kilda' was a redirect to St Kilda instead of the other way around. Whether or not it is worth the effort to correct this problem is another question. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:12, 2 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we know, there was no such saint. But that's the name of the island whether you like it or not. How does it improve things to use the abbreviation of the word saint? If 'St Kilda' was not an abbreviation how on earth would it be pronounced?! I don't get it. Flapdragon 00:25, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'Saint Kilda' is not the name of the island. The name of the island is spelled 'St Kilda' and pronounced 'saint kilda' (in English). It is not a question of 'improving things to use an abbreviation'. It is not an abbreviation. It was never spelled 'Saint Kilda' and I am pointing out that it is inaccurate to write, for example 'Saint Kilda may refer to...', as spelled this way it refers to nothing at all so far as I am aware. To put it another way, 'saint kilda' is a phonetic disambiguation, but the primary written disambiguation page should be 'St Kilda', not 'saint kilda'. I am currently doing a little more digging for the St Kilda, Scotland article (the origin of all the other St Kildas). There are various theories, but (for example) the Icelandic name may have been 'Skildar', which be a series of cartographical typos became S. Kildar and then St. Kilda. Ben MacDui (Talk) 09:54, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, we know that. So by your own logic it "should" be S. Kilda, or even Skilda, rather than St Kilda — or perhaps Sunt Kelda. Whatever its confused origins, the name of the island quite clearly is Saint Kilda, usually found in what has long since been perceived as an "abbreviated" form as St Kilda — though not always: a quick Google will show that it is in fact often spelled Saint Kilda. I'm afraid language will not be bidden: it is what it is, not what someone thinks it ought to be according to etymological theories, and an older form is not necessarily more "correct". Did you know the name of the Hebrides is probably based on a misreading? Shall we change that as well? Flapdragon 12:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, Encyclopaedia Britannica also seems to think "Saint Kilda" is the name. (Saint Kilda. (2007). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved March 3, 2007, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online: http://search.eb.com/eb/article-9064897.) Likewise the Columbia Encyclopedia. Perhaps you should get in touch. It would be interesting to know what they made of your idea. Flapdragon 12:28, 3 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Your sources are intriguing, although sadly I have no access to the Columbia Encyclopedia. I do have a copy of the The New Encyclopedia Brittanica (1978), which refers to 'St. Kilda'. (Use of a period, although arguably also inaccurate is a fairly regular occurrence). I have never previously come across of a verifiable reference to 'Saint Kilda' and it would certainly be interesting to know why the EB has subsequently come up with it. However, take a look at every single book and website listed in the St Kilda, Scotland references, citations and external links sections. Over twenty listed, all 'St Kilda's. Of course, the names of places change, but I am referring to the contemporary (i.e. since the 16th century) usage. This includes the official World Heritage Site name. Observe also the history of the Saint Kilda (disambiguation) page. Every time anyone has placed a 'saint' it has been replaced with an 'St'. In short, it is not my theory or idea, it is simply standard use. I took up your suggestion and did a 'Google' search for 'saint kilda'. I got to page 4 before a 'saint kilda' appeared which was a Yahoo reference to the weather in New Zealand. In other words, I certainly concede that 'Saint Kilda' has occasionally crept into use - and thank-you for providing this information - but it is not, so far as I can see, ever used by anyone with a detailed knowledge of the subject or in any official designation, for any of the several St Kildas. Ben MacDui (Talk)

I agree with Ben, this move is ridiculous. It is certainly not an abbreviation and this is highly confusing ! --Biatch 02:40, 15 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I've put in a formal request to move this page Lurker (said · done) 18:46, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support per the above. Ben MacDui (Talk) 19:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I agree with the reason given. --Tλε Rαnδom Eδιτor (tαlk) 22:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. If we move it, it's still a dab page; the various pages should still have a dab, and searching on Saint Kilda will still get you here. I don't see the point; add the statement that there is no known Saint Kilda as the intro, and leave it alone. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:53, 27 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. It is not just that here is no saint called 'Saint Kilda' - it is that there is no anything called 'Saint Kilda'. Ben MacDui (Talk) 08:04, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support - per reasons given. Reginmund 00:53, 28 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support. All the entries are named St Kilda. I'm a bit surprised this is even controversial, but so it proves. Andrewa 09:36, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom. --Mais oui! 14:30, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Support. For reasons above Shaizakopf 21:09, 29 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from Saint Kilda (disambiguation) to St Kilda as the result of a move request. --Stemonitis 19:02, 1 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No Saint called Kilda[edit]

I have added a comment at the bottom of the disambiguation list to state that there is no known Saint called Kilda, and referred the reader to the St Kilda, Scotland page for further reference. This is because the lack of a link to a specific Saint is unexpected; and it seems reasonable to explicitly acknowledge this expectation, rather than let people wonder if Wikipedia is missing some information :-) YojimboSan (talk) 10:10, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Flapdragon, thanks for the rewording - I toned down the word "controversy" because there is no real dispute regarding the name, just lack of clarity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.237.25.213 (talk) 21:25, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:St Kilda, Scotland which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 11:44, 26 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]