Talk:Starsiege: Tribes/Archive 1

Game Firsts

I removed the reference to Tribes being the first FPS with heat seeking missiles, as Rise of the Triad had as much three years earlier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cthuljew (talk • contribs) 11:23, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Requirements

It seems that the requirements to play would make a noteworthy addition to this article, but I can't include this myself as I don't own any of the Tribes games. MafiaCapo 03:53, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

As this is a fairly old game now, perhaps the silence on the topic of system requirements should be taken as a default for games that, on a contemporary system, would not represent any system spec challenges.Dxco 05:11, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Vehicles

"They normally are not the focus of the game (unlike the sequel), but just a convenient feature"

Perhaps we should clarify how vehicles worked out in the game. Early in the games history, vehicles were used quite frequently, and were considered by players to be a common element of the game. However, over time (and particularyl due to increased skill in skiing), vehicles became less and less commonly used; skiing was faster. I believe in the end, only the scout would be used much, by CTF players going for a scout cap (however, I have this vague memory that this was patched, so that you had to get out of the scout to get the enemy flag).Dxco 01:01, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

Piracy

I wonder if we should add mention of the sad fact that Starsieg: Tribes was very much a heavily pirated game. This can, of course, be said about most games, but it was noteworthy for Tribes: the game did not sell very well, but was played by a very large number of people (that is, many people pirated it).

Some of the developers had noted with some bitterness this issue, and took the lesson with them as they began Tribes 2, with its Valve-like online authentication system. Tribes, at the time, became a bit of a by-word for easy to pirate / heavily pirated games (you could literally right click on your install directory, and select "icq this folder to X" if you had icq installed, for example - zero copy protection).

A developer commented once that he checked, not long after the games release, on the number of people showing as being online playing it, and noted that the number was, I believe, something like 3 times the number of copies sold at that point.

Dxco 01:01, 22 October 2005 (UTC)

I think there's merit in adding this information, both to this entry as well as the entry for Tribes 2. It's certainly valid information, and there's no cat to be let out of the bag, so to speak, since the game has been officially released for free. I'm not sure where to add it in though.

Yukichigai 09:29, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Added a piece near the end. I'm unfamiliar with the Tribes 2 situation so haven't touched that entry.

-- Anon

Well done addition. Thanks! I think this really helps flesh out more of the context of the game above and beyond the game itself. Dxco 04:52, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

You need to back this up. None of this "the developers were bitter" and "3 times the number of copies sold" heresay. Put references in the wikipedia page. ROM SPACEKNIGHT

Famous/Popular Clans?

Would it be worthy to note some of the most famous and well known clans of the day?

Imperial Elite (all time greatest unbeatable dominant clan)
South Side Stoners
5150
E5
Others?
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.160.177.211 (talk • contribs)

Hm. I'm not sure; how much could we write about them, really? Maybe give them a small subsection/list under external links, if anything. Always good to see people interested in adding useful information, though. From what I remember, I can't think of any edits to make to that list. Good lord, I loved the 5150 servers. Luna Santin 23:21, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I would be a fan of this, but then I was a huge fan of the game: I don't know if I can subtract out my feelings for it and honestly answer if it is deserving of such an addition. If users feel it fitting, perhaps a kind of "culture of the game" section, or separate page, could be added - describing the notable groups and people who made up the community, and perhaps describes the arc of the games popularity and what went on with it. It's really tough to say if this kind of thing is just self-indulgent nostalgia for those of us who enjoyed the game in its time, but perhaps there is a seed there that would be appropriate. Dxco 04:54, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

Fallen| really needs to be mentioned. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.212.177.51 (talk) 00:53, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I feel like I have been part of creating a monster. The clans list is now totally over the top. From here on out, I think we should focus solely on an actual section of the article that describes clans in Tribes only, and completely avoid a bloating list of clans. If you create a list, visitors will just endlessly add to it, until it takes over the page. With this in mind, I will soon delete the clan list section. I encourage fellow contributor to get cracking on a short, to the point, brief paragraph that describes the overview history of clans in Tribes to replace what I will soon delete.Dxco 05:22, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

As a quick update, I'll be implementing the above soon. Contributors, please do start thinking about an article section devoted to the clan aspect of tribes to replace the section that I am going to delete. Dxco 03:34, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

A very bad idea, we would have people adding clans they were in for 2 weeks. A list of clans for a game that is 12 years old would bog down the whole page with useless entries like:

-=jfds=- - was the best clan for to weeks -=sdfj=- - was started shortly after jfds split up

It would just turn into a cluster fuck.Tribes Armageddon (talk) 16:21, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Imperial Elite and 5150 were a clear cut ahead of all the other clans. 2600:1700:B00:2A90:FD84:DC4D:D92A:7B0B (talk) 20:18, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

Tribes World Championship

Probaley worth mentioning that during the reign of Tribes 1 there was tourney orgnaised of about 10 countries who include; Australia, New Zealand, Isarel, Germany, Celtic, Finland, Canada and USA had two teams.Had fond memories playing for the Australian team. Generally a pretty good tourney, but PINGS were a definate factor in some countries playing each other.

CLANS - Imperial Elite etc were the best US + Canadian clans, but regions had their best clans as well Australia/New Zealand and Europe (including UK).

58.167.130.217 13:21, 30 December 2006 (UTC)Fez AKA Borgy

I agree that a section about Tribes World Championships would be great! But I can only remember that it was organized during spring 2000, and that the winner was US West, second Finland and third US East. Wonder if anyone has more info (full results etc).

25.11.2007, Sonique

Huds and Scripts

NOTE: I'm resurrecting this quickly-reverted section because I think there's something that should be cleared up. -- Yukichigai

This section states that 'happymod' is a cheat. AFAIK it's a modified Tribes executable that works exactly the same as a Ski Script. Also, AKAIK there has never been a client-side script that could be used for cheating. Perhaps this section should be expanded/rewritten. --Netdriod9

Yes, technically happymod is an additional executable that modifies how the Tribes executable runs, rather than a script or HUD. However, there are numerous client-side scripts which enable cheating. Hell, I've written a few. (To test my own mod against cheating because I couldn't find the original cheatscripts, calm down) I'm not talking about scripts which are on the razor's edge of cheating, but of those which blatantly exploit flaws in gamescript, base or modded. But, yeah, the section could use to be reworded. Also, the Ski Script is not an executable "hack" like happymod. (Though an executable version -- happyjump -- does exist) Ski Scripts are called that for a reason: they're scripts. The most common is one packaged with Presto Pack. So... here endeth the lesson. -- Y|yukichigai 11:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Storyline

While I applaud the writer's effort, I'm not sure that it is necessary to include such a large section on the game's story line. In terms of the games notability, presence, and impact, the story line for this online-only game really had no significance. I think I could be very safe saying that almost no player (and I mean that relative to the user base) had any awareness of, or interest in, the backround story Dynamix came up with for the game. I don't wish to diminish the author's efforts, but this could effectively be like including a section on a backround story to CounterStrike. The topic is exceedingly tangential to what the game represented, and might mislead readers unfamiliar with Tribes - making them interpret the topic's presence as an indication that the story of the Starsiege fictional universe was a notable element to the game and it's community. Dxco 05:19, 7 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm really itching to do what would amount to a serious gutting of the storyline section. Comments and input welcome. Dxco 16:25, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Links

Ok, the links section has now officially become completely bloated. I'd like to see it reduced down to 5 or 6 salient, key links, and leave it at that.Dxco 15:43, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Instead of bitching about it, I cleaned it up :P Good lord, I think at least half of the links didn't even work. I heavily trimmed the links down to a core group, letting interested readers find the game, basic info, and a few sites that contain a wealth of links, files and info (much of which was poorly duplicated in the previous link list).Dxco 16:23, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Should there be a link to PlayTribes, the site that will host the game in your browser? I don't think it'll actually be on InstantAction's website, but instead get its own site, similar to PlayLegions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.84.100.109 (talk) 16:25, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Tribes Xtreme

Is it worth noting the canceled Tribes Xtreme expansion at all in this article? It's pretty hard to find information on it now but it was a fairly large deal to the community at the time. I might consider making a small section on it if I find enough information. Astrum 22:12, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Mem.dll

How about adding some info on Andrew's mem.dll release, the fact that Tribes looks for an external dll to do its memory allocation. This can be expanded with adding mention of the hacked mem.dll that TROC released, and the effect it had on LastHope servers. Also the lasthope bypass of NoFix. Then lastly, the new mem.dll release by MasterShin that allows ADO connections. What do you think? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.138.48.16 (talk) 13:28, 6 January 2007 (UTC). Andrew has released a lib of a small mem.dll, so people can build their own Tribes extensions.

Happymod / cheats

I think that there should be some happymod info placed down, as this was a major cheat that a lot of players used - leading to the introduction of LastHope.

IRC channel

The game has a built-in irc client - what network / channel does it connect to? The article should mention that channel and have an IRC link to it because that is useful —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 165.173.126.125 (talk) 18:33, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

It's irc.dynamix.com:6667, the the game automatically connects to channel #tribes I believe, but I don't think it's used much anymore. The network is frequently used by clans, mod makers and communities, and that like.

Since Sierra took the master server offline the IRC no longer works. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.84.100.109 (talk) 03:31, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

IRC works, try just not the dynamix chat server. I've successfully tried connecting to other servers and channels via Tribes --71.74.89.94 (talk) 00:06, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Dead link

During several automated bot runs the following external link was found to be unavailable. Please check if the link is in fact down and fix or remove it in that case!

• http://www.sierra.com/file_list.do?gamePlatformId=286
  • In Starsiege: Tribes on 2007-06-03 14:34:04, 404 Not Found
  • In Starsiege: Tribes on 2007-06-10 16:51:31, 404 Not Found
• http://www.csports.net/(11ia3v45nm53wt55xk1bro45)/TopGames.aspx
  • In Starsiege: Tribes on 2007-06-03 14:34:20, Socket Error: (10065, 'No route to host')
  • In Starsiege: Tribes on 2007-06-10 16:53:28, Socket Error: (10065, 'No route to host')

--Stwalkerbot 16:55, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The Tribes Community

It was the community that was born from this game that really deserves some recognition. Never before had the numbers of people collected online for the singular purpose of gaming before this game came along. Even though IRC existed well before this games release many people were introduced to internet relay chat because of this game. I knew of people who actually met through this game and got married. I had people cross international borders to visit me that were players in my tribe. Before there was a Xbox, Play station 2, or any other online gaming that actually drew a crowd there was Tribes. Tribes is not a foot note in the history of First Person Shooters, or an example of a failed entertainment enterprise, it was the first game to have a large online community of support using multiple resources like dedicated servers for the game, IRC, VoIP servers, and Perl scripted BBS that allowed collabration on team building, graphic arts, and the such. I know for a fact that the phenomenon of "All your Base are Belong to Us" came from the tribes community, from a particular player with deep Unix roots. Hell the guy holding the cigarette pack in the video is me. [[User:[BRO]Tigger|[BRO]Tigger]]

Yes, but it wasnt unique in that regard, nor the first. Earlier FPS games as well had rockin active online communities. So, while its safe to note the vibrant community that sprang up around Tribes, we wouldn't be justified in going into too much depth about it, due to this aspect of the game not being terribly unique, broadly speaking. Dxco 23:27, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

The All Your Base Are Belong To Us meme wasn't started by your Tribes friend.. Oddity- (talk) 08:49, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The Great Mod Listbloat Cleanup

I am soon going to do a massive cleanup of the inexcusably uberbloated mod list. This has gotten completely out of hand. I am going to reduce it to a list of the top 5 most representative, notable, and popular mods. Feel free to comment here on answer the following question: For a reader who is not terribly familiar with Tribes, what would be a Mod that would give them a representative taste of the large mod presence Tribes experienced? Note that the question is not "please list every mod ever made." Instead, we just want a few representative examples of popular mods, to clue in the interested reader as to what this aspect of Tribes was like. Dxco 04:09, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

RPG, as it probably made more alterations to the game than any other widely known mod. Shifter and/or Renegades also, as they were both very prominent(I'd also include a mention of their many versions). Football and Paintball mods were both very popular, and the former changed gameplay almost entirely. I'd also mention one or two which did not so drastically alter the game, like Base++ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hazor (talk • contribs) 01:33, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I realize now that a list is a bad idea. We need a short paragraph/section that describes the mod presence in tribes. That is, we want an actual written article, and not a list. Lists inviite people to add to them endlessly, and lists dont inform the user. We need a brief paragraph or two that sketches out the Mod aspect of tribes in a way that the unfamiliar reader can get a quick sense of this aspect of Tribes. So, get crackin on that front, to replace the list that I am going to delete. Dxco 05:25, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that (as the author of the mods) neither DeltaAirForce and Dune were/are popular. I'd argue that they changed the game significantly, but no more so than other mods even if it was in a completely different direction. They definately shouldn't be on a popularity contest list. For an article aspect, I also wouldn't note two or more mods like "shifter" and "renegades" since it's redundant. They both took mods in the same direction more or less; one just unfortunately had the guts to take it further. -J —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.189.98.10 (talk) 03:59, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

I just noticed another issue with those two entries (oddly enough that both contain falicious information). The first mod, Delta Force, was not created by me. I created Delta Air Force, which was built off of the much more basic Delta Force, introduced a year or two earlier. The second entry mentions that the sandworms ate you when you wandered off the map. The sandworms actually hunt down players to eat. Anyone on open sand in a map is a target whether they're in bounds or not. After I implemented this, another short lived individual on the scene decided to introduce some watered down varient into his mod which only ate you if you went out of bounds. This is probably what the original author was thinking of when that note was made. -J —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.54.57.187 (talk) 19:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

The mod section was my addition to the wiki, some of you don't find it informative but the longevity of tribes is due to the mass amounts of mod created to keep players interested in the game. That being said 3rd party mods,maps,scripts etc do hold a valid place in tribes history. I did research the mods and authors for correct credit though i may have mistaken DAF's author as another. Being a wiki means someone could easily correct it, but to remove the whole section and only list the popular mods is insulting for one to the coders that spent many hours making these works to share with us. Furthermore who is to say what is popular now, as the once vast mod community is limited to paintball and annihilation which is not a very accurate veiw on mods durring the total life of the game.Tribes Armageddon (talk) 16:01, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Sshot0028.png

Image:Sshot0028.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 05:31, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Removed extra metaserver link

I've removed the second ("TooCrooked's") masterserver link. It's been on the page for a little while, but I've realized now that it is fairly non-notable (a quick check shows that it gets less than ten google hits, compared to the 110+ of the "tribesmasterserver.com" metaserver), and only shows a subset of the servers listed in the "tribesmasterserver.com" masterserver (a check showed that "TooCrooked's" listed 63 servers compared to "tribesmasterserver.com"'s 120, and it appeared that all of the 63 were contained in that larger list). While I'm sure all Tribes players appreciate TooCrooked's efforts, the purpose of this wiki article is to show a representative "best of breed" summary of information and links, which the "tribesmasterserver.com" clearly represents. Dxco (talk) 02:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

The link reappeared, so I'll summarize here: the link is to a non-notable site (few hits relative to existing metaserver link). The linked site appears to contain just a subset of what appears on the site of the existing link (tribesmasterserver site appears to be the "best of breed" site to link to for readers). The link is self-promotion. Please feel free to discuss and address these three points.Dxco (talk) 22:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

In the interests of "diplomacy", it should first be argued that the link be removed, an then to see the consensus of the notion. You jumped straight to removal (with no authority) and then decided to offer an explanation (ready, fire, aim). First of all, there is no "official" master server anymore. So determining a "subset" is a venture in futility. I simply query a different server than they do. Secondly, my results are real-time. Third of all, in regards to the history of the game, my server lead to the inception of that site. I can provide emails which show that that site's owner asked me for permission to use my ideas to create his design, and then i can show you emails where he plagiarized my layouts. It would not be fair or accurate to remove my link as it is the progenitor of what you are trying to highlight here.

Now that you have my input plus your input, we are currently at a stalemate. And thus far, one anon has reverted your work, so that kind of tips the scale. Also, do us and the rest of the internet and not try to trivialize this into a "who has the most on their side" tit-for-tat matter. Instead, understand the value that is gained by providing would be readers with information that will expand their knowledge on the subject matter. As this is a collaborative effort, do not confuse that for some type of voting system. Try and use some common sense and not your partisan view on the situation. Wait until there is an OBVIOUS consensus on the situation before you use your pseudo power to remove the link again. Your will is no more strong than mine, so stop acting like you're the admin of this article and that what you determine is right (at your own whim no less) will then be immediately enacted without any consensus. My link EXPANDS on information related to tribes. Stop trying to deprive the article of DEPTH. Stop being a hypocrite and stop trying to force your selfish agenda on the rest of us. Otherwise, you will be instigating a "link war" with your undiplomatic removals.

TooCrooked (talk) 11:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi, glad you stopped by the chat page. Please discuss these three points:

• 1. Your site is not notable. The existing link gets a lot of hits, yours gets very very few. This leads to the idea that the existing link the best bet.
• 2. Your site provides less data than the existing link, and the data provided is already present in larger form in the existing link. This leads to the idea that the existing link is clearly the winner, with your site effectively just duplicating a lesser portion of it.
• 3. Your addition is self promotion. You, the owner of a site, are trying to add a link to a wiki page. This leads to the idea that you are understandably biased in favor of your site and its presence on the page, and that this conflict of interest leads to a suspicion of your addition on the page.

The purpose of an article is to summarize information on a topic for a reader, and provide best-of-breed links and further information. Wikipedia is not intended to contain *all* information, but the best, most representative information. When a user shows up and places a link to a site they own, and when this site is obscure and provides less information than already available from other, better links, you can expect resistence such as you are experiencing. Anyhoo, please address these three points as you're able. Thanks! Dxco (talk) 21:07, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

What are you points based on? Well, besides personal opinion? Sure, you can make a point and provide data that you feel validates that point, but the points themselves are weak. My site is notable by the fact that not only is it the progenator of the site that you are trying to promote above mine, but also that it provides a different perspective on the same. It's hardly a coincidence that the two sites look the same. Don't you think that one or the other would have been an attempt to convey the information differently? Besides that, who says that there can only be one source of information on a topic? This is where your point is the weakest. There is no merit in attempting to compare the one resource to the other. Period. For instance, perhaps there should be a heading describing the master server's death. My site conincides with this. And the death of the master server is completely within the scope of this article. My site has notability in that era of Tribes, and also was partly a reason the site you note exists. Without my implementation of the query technology, which i have mails to underscore, the site simply would not exist when it existed. The two are irrevocably linked to one another. Your point about my site providing less data is again a poor opinionated interpretation of the information at hand. Again, i mention that i query a different server. Therefore i get different results. However, i provide resources that the other site doesn't have. For instance, the downloadable CS file. Also, my results are real time. These differences make my site just as notable. The only reason my site doesn't get traffic is because i don't actively engage in that practice. That does NOT determine the validity or the notability of my site in relation to the history of tribes. That history has already been written, and therefore should remain. Your point that i am duplicating information is hypocritical: that site was a duplication of mine, and simply amended with other information. If you try to put that on me, then you must also use that logic against the site in question which is simply a port of my site. As for "self promotion", i certainly expect to be given credit for my hard work. However, I didn't simply create a site that mimiced ANYTHING on the topic. I created a new resource that was not available in that format and provided a service to the tribes community. I don't call that self promotion. Adding it to the wiki at the time was highly unselfish. The link remaining underlines the fact that my work is undeniably linked to the history of tribes. Take a look at the entry for "martin luther king", just for one random example of how two links, which perhaps are linked to one another, exist becuase both have something notable to do with the topic. These links are the audio links to his speeches. One is a specific audio feed, and the other is a collection of links. Therefore, your (personal) idea about "best of" is flawed. Please show me a wiki article that underscores your point to get a bit more credibility. However, it is likely you will have misinterpreted that article, but i challenge you to this idea anyway. You require the burden of proof becuase youre essentially making it up as you go along here.

Please remember That this article is a collaborative effort. Stop trying to force your opinion on others. I know you want to enforce your selfish agenda, but you need to stop making rules up as you go along in the persuit of that notion

TooCrooked (talk) 01:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with TooCrooked, his site weather it's busy or not is irrelevant . There are multiple masterserver addresses that should be posted here not just what a few people consider to be the best.Tribes Armageddon (talk) 16:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Tab on how to get working on vista.

We need one that mentions the Vista Patch, Last Hope, HudBot, and we should probably add those to external links. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.0.203.111 (talk) 05:31, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Annihilation mod

Should we include this, it is one of the most popular mods out there and they are still running servers today (although the central server is down)--Rootbeerjunky (talk) 05:45, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Masterserver updates and links

Added a working Master Server Replacement address into the article where it mentions that Sierra has shut down the official servers and that there are now community run master servers. Serves dual purpose of giving an example of a community run master server and also gives people that wish to play Tribes a master server to work with. Someone who actually knows how to edit a wiki feel free to properly give it a section as I believe that it is relevant and useful to have in the article. 22:45, 16 March 2009

Since the original masterservers have been shut down, I've added a link to a ready-to-play archive that contains the full game plus updated masterserver addresses. I was wary to include this in the links section, but ultimately did so because of the usefulness (all previous packages required additional changes or extra downloads to function) Feel free to change this if you disagree with me. Also added a link to the original Spoonbot website in the article, since this is probably more useful than a link to a non-existing article. Toumal (talk) 19:25, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Allow me to make my case for my recent addition of a link to a ready to play package: I understand that too many links is undesirable, but I also see Wikipedia's aim to include relevant information. In the context of Tribes, "where do I get it" is relevant information. But simply offering a link to the official 1.8 download is not "best of breed". In fact, that download is useless without BOTH the patch and at least one new masterserver address. Since all masterservers have been purged from this article, readers do not have the information they need to actually use the download provided. Hence I vote to either have the list of community master servers reinstated (potentially unwieldy), or to point to a location where such information can be obtained either in text form, or in the form of a complete downloadable archive. Also, arbitrary purging one link while keeping others is rather inconsistent. Hence I've reference-ified the links to the 1.30 lasthope patch (because the complaint was made that in-text links are bad), but I am also against removing that link because that patch *is* important information. Lastly, what's wrong with a link to Spoonbot? It was apparently relevant enough to include in the article, but with a link to a non-existing Wikipedia article. I doubt Spoonbot warrants its own page. Or is the answer "Just google for it"?

Don't get me wrong, I'm obviously not spending all my days on Wikipedia. But as some other people above me noted, there seems to be a certain "ready, aim, fire"-attitude regarding reverts. To make matters worse, said reverts don't even care to fix typos or consistently change the issue they're complaining about. It would be nice to talk about such things and maybe reach a consensus - or at apply consistent standards. Thank you.

Toumal (talk) 14:04, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a guide (for games or otherwise), furthermore Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files. I don't mean to be rude, but telling people to "get this patch" is completely unencyclopedic, and the fansite-like structure of this article is only holding it back. This article needs to be brought in line with WikiProject Video Games' article guidelines. —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 07:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Tribes RPG

I'm not exactly Wikipedia savvy so I didn't include links in the Tribes RPG section I added (such as http://www.planettribes.com/rpg/). If someone else could do that for me I'd really appreciate it. I just thought that Tribes RPG should be mentioned since it showed up in several gaming magazines such as GamePRO Magazine and Electronic Games Monthly at the time, and because it so drastically changes the game and has such a huge following. At it's peak, when Everquest was the only MMO well known in the United States, Tribes RPG was often compared to Everquest with high praise for the mod. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.132.247.134 (talk) 04:12, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting, it may be worth mentioning if there are several publications that discussed it. Would you mind providing some issue dates and if possible page numbers? —/Mendaliv/^2¢/_Δ's/ 04:14, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

External links

This is regarding the edit war on the article, I'll start this talk since no-one else is. The link that is being reverted should not be in the article per WP:EL. It could be mentioned if an notable source picks up on it, for example IGN writing an article on it. As of right now though, it's not appropriate. Eik Corell (talk) 22:29, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits

Please do not add all the bloat back into the article, it violates WP:GAMEGUIDE, WP:OR, WP:GAMECRUFT, WP:EL and WP:RS. If you want to contribute, the gameplay section needs some fleshing out, shouldn't be too hard. I'll have a look at it, and everyone else please do so as well. Eik Corell (talk) 06:03, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Eik, your recent edits are unwelcome and unnecessary. Tribes was and is an important game in the history of online multiplayer games. The length and detail of the article are warranted. Your edits are not. People come to read wikipedia for more information NOT LESS, please respect that and do not gut the article again. 91.135.10.60 (talk) 09:18, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

This article needs pruning/editing and not deletion of useful content. Please spend time editing the article instead of deleting entirely relevant sections. 87.194.16.91 (talk) 13:28, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

My edits are in line with the guidelines I mentioned. If you had bothered reading them in the first place, you would understand that. If information that didn't violate the guidelines I mentioned was deleted, mention it here and make your case for its inclusion. The length and detail were, once again, NOT warrented per the guidelines I mentioned. The problem here is that no-one added much relevant data to begin with, and as a result the article was just gradually filled with WP:GAMECRUFT. Eik Corell (talk) 14:40, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Most of Eik's removals are justified under WP:V, WP:WAF, WP:OR and WP:VGSCOPE. Some of the gameplay sub-sections can be compressed into the main gameplay section rather than removed, I might give that a shot. The Community support, Competition and Mods sections should not be included unless reliable third-party sources have commented on those concepts. Marasmusine (talk) 15:36, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

I am well aware of the supposed violations you cite. Is it more important that an accurate informative article is sacrificed on the altar of WP:this/that or is the purpose of Wikipedia to provide valid information? Many great articles contravene one, more or all of the WP rules you cite and yet remain because they are believed to be good enough as is. I am reverting this article yet again please do not gut it again. Please respect a long standing, accurate article even if it is not perfect. Rather than gutting, if you wish to contribute find and cite that support the content instead of deleting it. 91.135.10.60 (talk) 21:12, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Never let the truth get in the way of WP:Rules, eh? Where once there was an article, now there sits a carelessly abbreviated one with a lock on it. Vandals come in many forms, some even hide behind a veil of authority by quoting WP:EL et al, they are vandals none the less. They have shown none of the care and respect an editor should show. Instead of trying to fix alleged problems they have just deleted the majority of the article.

I use wikipedia on a daily basis to find out as much as I can about peaks my interest. I should be very disappointed if every article I read were as butchered as this one. I would ask that those parties with no other interest other than to destroy articles in the name of WP:Rules please leave this one alone. Anyone can edit Wikipedia, this clearly demonstrates not everyone should. Eik Corell, that last comment is most definitely aimed squarely at you. GordonTG (talk) 04:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I have two questions for you: Did you actually read the guidelines I quoted? To me it doesn't seem like you actually read them, more like you dismissed them off-hand. The next question: If you knew nothing about Tribes and you looked it up on Wiki, do you think you would bother going through this article in the form that you want it? Any useful info is buried by a ton of info that is only relevant to its fanbase and/or aspiring players. I know I wouldn't. Again, what this article needs is the gameplay section fleshed out, because admittedly I removed a bit too much relating to that one. All that said, I'm not gonna respond to accusations of me being a vandal or disrespectful, because I'm neither. Basically the problem here is that this article isn't a gateway to the game, or a hub for the community, it's just an article that's supposed to be readable by anyone, player or non-player. You mention WP:EL specifically, and I'll explain that one quickly: In this case it means that the article can't have links to community sites and mods, which is mentioned in the "Links normally to be avoided" section, #10. Eik Corell (talk) 06:01, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Two answers. Yes, I've read the guidelines plenty of times as I've been reading Wikipedia nearly daily for years. And Yes, I read almost every article I'm interested from start to finish. Nowhere does it state that articles should be pared down to little more than a couple of lines so that people with the attention span of a Gnat can absorb them.

My questions - Why do you feel the need to destroy an article that, while no means perfect, did a good enough job? You could have made improvements, instead of making massive cuts in it. Do you lack the ability, time or willingness to fix the article properly? Can you not see that culling a significant portion of an article looks very much like vandalism?

I have the necessary time and knowledge of the material to restore much of the article in better form. However, there seems little point in doing it at the moment when someone like yourself seems hellbent on enforcing guidelines at the cost of sharing knowledge. GordonTG (talk) 08:20, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok... Once again, I didn't destroy the article, I removed all the bloat that was SUPPOSED to have been relevant info, but was rather just WP:GAMECRUFT. Furthermore, following these rules upon which Wikipedia is based serves to dispel the popular notion that Wikipedia is an anarchy WP:ANARCHY where anyone can edit and add whatever they want, regardless of its relevance. If you feel that I'm misinterpreting the rules, tell me and/or make your case. I base all my edits off of the rules, and thus far, I haven't seen you doing so, that's why I revert your edits. Contrary to what you and your fellow forum members might believe, I am not out to "destroy" anything. If I were, I wouldn't last long here. I have actually already had this discussion on another article, with another community, only they used the talk page and acted pretty much in in accordance to WP:CIVIL. Here's a link to it for reference: [Talk:Battlezone_II:_Combat_Commander]]. Again, if you want to add something, you're better off talking about it here than reverting the article back to the sorry state it was in. Eik Corell (talk) 10:33, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Here are some examples of culled statements: "One of the defining elements of the Tribes series is the jetpack." "The incorporation of this third dimension gives some Tribes players the satisfaction of believing that they are playing one of the only truly 3-D computer game." "Skiing, although somewhat angering to new players and to purists (initially), has become an integral part of the game." "Tribes includes too many team-oriented features to number. These are buried deep within the game and are difficult to use" "Due to the anonymity of the Tribes engine, "smurfing" was hard to detect and likely prevalent in match play."

Now go back and read WP:OR and WP:V. WP is not a fan site or game guide. The onus is on the contributor to attribute their information to a reliable source. Particularly in this case, the bulk of the article was unverifiable and opinionated. When the "critical reception" section is expanded, perhaps we'll see some of this material return - for example if the jetpack or the mods are of particular note, then reviewers will have commented on them. Marasmusine (talk) 10:43, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Gotta love people destroying wikipedia pages. No wonder people say wikipedia isn't a reliable source —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.236.206.26 (talk) 12:09, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

"If you feel that I'm misinterpreting the rules, tell me and/or make your case." Rather than have me justify every aspect of a long standing article which I did not write, you should be looking to justify every edit you made. And please, don't bother quoting WP:CIVIL at me when I have the decency to answer your questions but you do not have the decency to answer mine. I'm inclined to agree with 99.236.206.26.

And Marasmusine, I never claimed the article was perfect but which does a reader the greater disservice? A detailed article which needs a tidy up or an article which follows WP guidelines as strict inflexible rules at the cost of information? There are Rules and Guidelines, please learn to differentiate.

To quote WP:Rules right back at you both "They see it [Rules] as a standard idea that all users should follow. When changing the page, please check that the other people agree with your changes. Use the talk page when you are not sure or when you want to suggest a change." Right now, assuming all posters/editors here are different people, I see you outnumbered at least 2 to 1 by people disagreeing with your edits. Please would you now do us all the courtesy by restoring the article first and then let us_all_together_in_cooperation fix it issue by issue.

If WP:Rules be your own petard, then you've both hoisted yourselves with it. GordonTG (talk) 15:34, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Gordon, the reason I'm "outnumbered" is because of canvassing in the forum thread that most likely led you and the other editors here, please don't get that issue confused. You're right about using the talk page before large content removals, though. Next, your first question was a loaded one, and even though that was the case, I still answered it. As to me not contributing but rather culling, that can be for any numbers of reasons - Not knowing the game, not having the time, take your pick. In the end I don't see what the point of that question is. Eik Corell (talk) 16:12, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The page has become useless, the removal of content weather it be player or non-player related was uncalled for. When i first decided to look up tribes here the page actually taught me a few things and i started playing when the demo was released, so to say the information was just bloat is wrong. I am mostly responsible for the mod section getting large but it did exist before i added a few of my works and other mods i remembered. Out of the 464 mod i have on my HD i maybe added 20, had i known it would be destroyed i should have just added each one version by version.Tribes Armageddon (talk) 16:35, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm with Gordon on this, particularly his last sentence: "Please would you now do us all the courtesy by restoring the article first and then let us_all_together_in_cooperation fix it issue by issue." It seems that now would be a good time to do just this, since this page has gotten the attention of quite a few Tribes players. People who know the game in and out. While I appreciate the fact that someone tried to clean this up a bit, completely gutting it was not the right move. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EvanVolm (talk • contribs) 17:46, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

"As to me not contributing but rather culling, that can be for any numbers of reasons - Not knowing the game, not having the time, take your pick." Then why on earth are you editing this article? GordonTG (talk) 00:48, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Improving the article

So what do we need added to the article? The gameplay section, off the top of my head: Things which have not been defined are mentioned, "ELF" for example. The whole section into too much detail about trivial things, like being shot draining your armor and turrets coming in five varieties.

Those things need to be removed or otherwise changed for the better. Those are my suggestions. Eik Corell (talk) 16:21, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The best way to revive this page is to remove you from this section. I have multiple saves of this page that i'd repost and the allow others to work on but not until we know it's safe from gutting.Tribes Armageddon (talk) 16:37, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

There are three important sections in any video game article: History, Gameplay and Critical reception. I will begin to build the Critical reception section using the links provided. Marasmusine (talk) 16:44, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Also, if any non-admin would like material added to the article during the lock, print it here along with a citation for verification and I'll pop it in. Marasmusine (talk) 16:50, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Start with this, otherwise leave the page to die in a fire. Removed a copy/paste of the entire article. Nakon 01:32, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Heh, I guess I'm the idiot now for trying to talk to these people. Oh well, you live and you learn. Eik Corell (talk) 18:59, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Millions played Tribes child, even a decade on thousands are still passionate. And yes, you can’t reason with us. In short, leave it alone, let us clean it, and stop gutting the article for your own petty reasons. And be thankful it was only the forum belonging to the owners of the current IP that the article was linked on, their somewhat cleaner and far more polite than the rabid tribal dogs that inhabit other locals. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.228.195.171 (talk) 23:32, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

The WP policies Wikipedia:Ownership of articles and Wikipedia:Civility might be instructive for you. Marasmusine (talk) 04:10, 8 July 2009 (UTC)