Talk:Stefan Molyneux/Archive 12

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I'm curious how his opinion that he doesn't think women should wear lipstick at work is any way, shape or form related to him being an alleged white supremacist?

Could this be a more biased biography of a person — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.35.240.92 (talk) 01:58, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

It's not at all related. The view is mentioned in the Views section and the Men's rights activism subsection, where it belongs. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 02:03, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Ask the RS that say it, we we do not.Slatersteven (talk) 10:41, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

How is it that the above editor Slatersteven can remove comments from the talk page in addition to controlling the actual wiki article? Why does this one person have so much control over this article? Is it not against the principles of wikipedia?110.174.242.150 (talk) 13:30, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

If you have a complaint about my actions take to eitehr my talk page or wp:ani (I would advise against this), this is not the place to discuss it (see wp:talk.Slatersteven (talk) 13:32, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Rfc to alter the opening sentence in the WP:Lede

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

This RFC is to establish Consensus. Do you support the following sentence starting the lede "Stefan Basil Molyneux (/stəˈfæn ˈmɒlɪnjuː/; born September 24, 1966) is an Irish-born Canadian alt-right white nationalist and white supremacist podcaster, blogger, and banned YouTuber, who promotes conspiracy theories, scientific racism, eugenics, and racist views." — Preceding unsigned comment added by GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk • contribs) 05:10, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

• Support Stefan Molyneux is described as alt-right by 9 sources on this page alone, in contrast to only 8 sources charging him as far-right. His affiliation with alt-right politics takes clear precedence over his affiliation with the far-right by the number of sources on this page alone. When I made this change, it was reverted by TucanHolmes as "superfluous", but a superfluous change doesn't require a revert. Something that's unnecessary or pointless is just that, pointless and thus not needed to fix. The other argument was that the next paragraph mentions he is alt-right, but the next paragraph also mentions he is far-right so that fails as a valid justification to warrant a revert. He finally mentions sources describe him as "far-right", but as I said, more sources use the term "alt-right". Mvbaron came in and repeated many of the same points. "because alt-right is repeated below" Yeah, so is the term far-right. "far-right is used in the sources" as is alt-right. He then says my statement that "changing pointless things is pointless" makes no sense. Ok. Please support this change. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk • contribs) 05:10, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

• Please review Wikipedia:Requests for comment, and specifically WP:RFCBEFORE. This is a straightforward change, why jump straight to an RFC? Where is the prior discussion? A superfluous change does require a revert if it makes the article less clear to readers, but the best way to change consensus starts with discussion. Grayfell (talk) 05:52, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Grayfell WP:RFCBEFORE does not objectively require discussion before a Wikipedia:Requests for comment, it merely suggests one and it was of my belief that such a discussion would prove meritless so I skipped to consensus building. I didn't think further discussion would result in any of us changing our opinion. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 07:37, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

• Comment: Why is this an rfc? This seems to me like a simple content dispute that doesn't need to be handled by RFC. Also, GreenFrogsGoRibbit, you should include a honest description of the changes. You want to change this:

Stefan Basil Molyneux ... is an Irish-born Canadian far-right white nationalist and white supremacist podcaster, blogger, and banned YouTuber, who promotes conspiracy theories, scientific racism, eugenics, and racist views. ... Molyneux is described as a leading figure of the alt-right movement by Politico and The Washington Post, and as far-right by The New York Times. to

Stefan Basil Molyneux ... is an Irish-born Canadian alt-right white nationalist and white supremacist podcaster, blogger, and banned YouTuber, who promotes conspiracy theories, scientific racism, eugenics, and racist views. ... Molyneux is described as a leading figure of the alt-right movement by Politico and The Washington Post, and as far-right by The New York Times. --Mvbaron (talk) 06:01, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Mvbaron It's an Rfc to avoid edit warring and build WP:Consensus, like every other Rfc on Wikipedia. Rfc main use is for content disputation and to avoid edit-wars. You accuse me of being dishonest, which makes no sense since I am explicit with what I am requesting. You then include your own version of my request which is not any different than what I said earlier. However, in your quote of my request you seem to imply calling him alt-right is redundant as it's mentioned later, but by doing so you leave out the far-right part of the paragraph presumably since including it would prove that far-right is just as redundant. I have included the far-right part omitted after this sentence for others convenience: "and as far-right by The New York Times." GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 07:37, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

GreenFrogsGoRibbit I apologize, I did not mean to imply that you are dishonest, I struck that part above. I also edited the above quotes to accurately reflect what you said. On further reflection, we might actually just remove the "far right" descriptor alltogether from the first sentence, because being white nationalist necessitates that one also is far-right anyways. So I suggest OPTION 2 below: Stefan Basil Molyneux ... is an Irish-born Canadian white nationalist and white supremacist podcaster, blogger, and banned YouTuber, who promotes conspiracy theories, scientific racism, eugenics, and racist views. What do you think about that?--Mvbaron (talk) 08:09, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Mvbaron I'm cool with that. Guess I gotta close down this Rfc now lol. And hey man, everything cool between us. Maybe I should have gone to discussion first. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 08:12, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose as at best redundant and at worst misrepresenting. The next sentence describes him as alt-right, so removing the far-right descriptor in the first sentence a) is not an improvement because it duplicates content and b) misrepresents the sources which describe him as far-right. --Mvbaron (talk) 06:01, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Support OPTION 2: Stefan Basil Molyneux ... is an Irish-born Canadian white nationalist and white supremacist podcaster, blogger, and banned YouTuber, who promotes conspiracy theories, scientific racism, eugenics, and racist views. --Mvbaron (talk) 08:09, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

THis RFC should not have been closed in less than a day after only two users responded.Slatersteven (talk) 09:33, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

And not this has been discussed many times, and it has always come down to calling him far-right.Slatersteven (talk) 09:35, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

This Rfc absolutely can be closed in less than a day pursuant to Wikipedia's own rules. Please see WP:RFCEND: "The question may be withdrawn by the poster (e.g., if the community's response became obvious very quickly). In this situation, the editor who started the RfC should normally be the person who removes the 'rfc' template." I fully complied with the rules here. Sorry. Now for your final point, I have edited this lede many times, I added the "As of September 2020, Molyneux has been permanently banned or permanently suspended from PayPal, Mailchimp, YouTube, Twitter and SoundCloud, all for violating hate speech policies." If I cannot edit the WP:Lede to remove far-right or add alt-right in the first sentence of the lede, then it's time to start a new RFC as far as I am concerned. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 18:45, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Two people offered opinions, that is not enough to establish a consensus, not after less than 6 hours. Hell many users (as I was) were asleep when you launched and closed this. And (as I said below) you had not included the RFC template, thus it was improperly launched anyway.Slatersteven (talk) 18:50, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Slatersteven Thankfully consensus is not needed to end an RFC. Again, WP:RFCEND says: "The question may be withdrawn by the poster (e.g., if the community's response became obvious very quickly). In this situation, the editor who started the RfC should normally be the person who removes the 'rfc' template." The community response became very obvious, so I ended it which is all that is needed. Consensus is not needed to end an RFC, sorry. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 19:00, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

I'm not calling him not far-right. What about this? OPTION 3 Stefan Basil Molyneux (...) is an Irish-born Canadian far-right <MOVE NYT AND CNN SOURCES HERE> white nationalist and white supremacist podcaster, blogger, and banned YouTuber, who promotes conspiracy theories, scientific racism, eugenics, and racist views. (...) Molyneux is described as a leading figure of the alt-right movement by Politico and The Washington Post. <REMOVE ", and as far-right by The New York Times."> Mvbaron (talk) 09:40, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

If we must have sources to stop this fine it won't though (and it is already sourced elsewhere in the article, the lede should not really have sources). As I said this has been hashed out many times and keeps getting raised.Slatersteven (talk) 09:43, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Also this RFC failed to include the TRFC tag, and so was incorrectly launched, per WP:RFCST.Slatersteven (talk) 11:13, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

Slatersteven If you want a 'rfc|bio' let me know so I can start it. Either way, just like I had to fight to get "As of September 2020, Molyneux has been permanently banned or permanently suspended from PayPal, Mailchimp, YouTube, Twitter and SoundCloud, all for violating hate speech policies." added to this Lede, I am ready for another round with the "far-right" label. Now do you want to start the RFC or shall I? GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 18:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

What? policy requires that you put that in, you did not, its not what I want. If you want to launch (a properly launched) RFC go ahead. I think the consensus is clear from all the talk page sections in archives (and above) about this that there is no consensus for your suggested change.Slatersteven (talk) 10:34, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Slatersteven On the contrary, I think there is no consensus or logic established for your stance. Mvbaron Suggestion 2 was the best option shown in our controversy. GreenFrogsGoRibbit (talk) 21:30, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

I wish people would bother to check the archives. This had been discussed multiple times. Hell look at the edit history, whenever Far-right is removed it is added back [[1]] [[2]]. Now if we really need an RFC about this fine. But lets not pretend there is no consensus to call him far-right. Now get consensus to change it.Slatersteven (talk) 09:24, 18 October 2021 (UTC)

Agree completely with Steven. Forgive me for not checking this page in the blink of an open and shut RfC eye. SPECIFICO talk 13:54, 19 October 2021 (UTC)

"Academic philosophers do not take the idea of Molyneux as a philosopher seriously. "

This assertion ("Academic philosophers do not take the idea of Molyneux as a philosopher seriously.") stated in Wikipedia's voice as if it were an established fact makes little sense. Check who wrote the introduction to Molyneux's book "Against the Gods?: A Concise Guide to Atheism and Agnosticism." - Peter Boghossian! This is not to say Molyneux would be a prominent philosophical thinker, but I don't think we need such a lecturing of the reader either.Polska jest Najważniejsza (talk) 00:29, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

Disgraceful

Donated sparingly to this website, but after reading this page and seeing several links that prove nothing being used to claim this man is a white supremacist who hates Muslims, my support for Wikipedia will cease. 68.192.49.162 (talk) 08:00, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

-Actually he is featured prominently on the Southern Policy Law Center; in this particular article he accumulated money and spread hate through bitcoin. Beyond a small group of people he is irrelevant.

-The point is does he belong on Wikipeida? Should Wikipeida be providing him with free advertising? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 13:39, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

MAybe not sp launch an wp:afd.Slatersteven (talk) 14:13, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

-- The SPLC is a political organization, not a legitimate source of information. I think their leaders recently were busted for sexually abusing their employees and creating a racist office environment that does not promote African American People of Color. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:589:8481:1720:61f7:e11a:9cb6:e9b7 (talk) 23:04, 15 Jan 2022 (UTC)

Although secondary supporting sources are widely cited in this article, the biggest source of information about Stefan Molynuex is Stefan Molynuex. His self funded and produced podcasts, self authored books, and extreme fringe positions form a very sophisticated type of self serving propaganda.

Me personally, I think Mr. Molyneux should be ignored and the deletion of this entry would protect the greater good. Wikipedia is process driven and thus lacks editorial control, for profit media on the Internet is click driven and lacks editorial control. I am all for starting the process to delete this entry.. However, I am not sure that the process is adroit enough to recognize the irrelevancy of Mr. Molyneux's propaganda. 71.203.10.104 (talk) 14:39, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Please read wp:forum, if you are not going to make a valid policy-based case for deletion (using the proper venue) please stop saying this page should be deleted because you do not like the subject. That is a violation of wp:talk.Slatersteven (talk) 14:41, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

-- "Extreme fringe" this isn't Encylopedia work, this is polemic.

---This is more politics. You want him deleted not because he is less famous than other people recorded here, but because you don't like his politics.

---You tell me what a "valid policy-based case for deletion" is and where it should go. Reading your reply, Can you help me do a deletion launch? Where can I find rules based grounds for deletion in Wikipeida policy? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:589:8481:1720:61f7:e11a:9cb6:e9b7 (talk) 23:04, 15 Jan 2022 (UTC) Where is it documented?71.203.10.104 (talk) 14:49, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I have provided you already with the link, here it is again wp:afd. That tells you how to nominate a page for deletion.Slatersteven (talk) 14:51, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

well the page is locked so I cannot insert a tag to get a discussion started. If you could insert a tag I will provide an argument as to why this entry does not meet/cannot meet NPOV standards for a Biography of a living person. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 15:18, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

NPOV is not a reason for deletion.Slatersteven (talk) 15:25, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

I appreciate your help. I am looking at the main policies. Perhaps the neutrality of the article needs to be examined or discussed instead of deletion. I think that would start from a tag to initiate an off talk-page discussion. Could you create a tag to that objective.

neutral point of view (all articles must take a fair, balanced and neutral stance)

verifiability (facts in articles must be verifiable from reliable sources), and

original research (users' and editors' opinions and "popular knowledge" are not suitable for encyclopedia articles).

verifiability (facts in articles must be verifiable from reliable sources), and — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 16:01, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes our articles must obey wp:npov, but if you disagree that this article meets that you ask to change it, not delete it. Moreover, you must make a sold case that this article does not reflect what the bulk of wp:RS say. So make a case here that this article does not reflect what the bulk of RS say, by providing some RS that counter what we say.Slatersteven (talk) 16:09, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

What I think it's disgraceful...some people wanting to delete Stefan because they disagree with him. Wikipedia is supposed to be a neutral source. I don't agree with Stefan what so ever but his article should not be deleted. Who will be next to be deleted? Do we delete every other far-right, far-left and whatever else "extrimist"? What's that British person that trained his dog to do the nazi salute. I think he is still around on Wikipedia. I could give examples of "extrimists" people on all sides of the political scale. We can't erase history. MiroslavGlavic (talk) 00:20, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

References

This article seems biased.

See WP:DENY; this has been discussed to death, and until something new is brought to the table or specific instances of bias mentioned, we should not discuss it over and over.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
You can tell the author doesn’t like the subject. An encyclopedia article shouldn’t drip with digs, belittling and animus. 2601:589:8481:1720:6458:375D:7C09:707C (talk) 23:57, 1 January 2022 (UTC) You'll need to be more specific. I don't see any obvious instances of bias. —C.Fred (talk) 00:00, 2 January 2022 (UTC) Also there is no one author, this is a collaborative effort. So feel free to offer suggestions for improvement.Slatersteven (talk) 11:26, 2 January 2022 (UTC) The entire article is a massive instance of bias. The whole thing is practically made up from political activists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shweenee (talk • contribs) 09:02, 18 January 2022 (UTC) Perhaps, or perhaps they are right, and people like Molyneux do not like being called out on what they say? That is why we have to go with RS, becasue we all have opinions.Slatersteven (talk) 10:13, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Media Matters as a Source

WP:DENY. This is beyond Civil POV pushing. It is clear the IP user is more interested in incoherent ranting than actual discussion (see talk page history).
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Why would anyone consider "Media Matters" to be a Reliable Source? The reference here is a clear indicator of bias. Ironically when you compare this Wikipedia to Media Matters - Media Matters is entirely more NPOV! Stefan Molyneux Far-right conspiracy theorist - Stefan Molyneux promotes scientific racism, which cloaks discredited racist arguments that other races are inferior to whites in an academic veneer. He often comments on race and IQ and spreads conspiracy theories on social media. The SLIGHTEST modification of this article towards NPOV (even the removal of a footnote) seems to be impossible!— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk)

NPOV Living Person

{{close In regards to the treatment of Mr. Molyneux Wikipedia fails today and has failed from inception to be neutral on the subject. Wikipedia would have it that Mr. Molyneux was a fringe personality aka Nebbish in 2009 to the very reincarnation of Adolph Hitler in late 2021!

My suggestion is that a consensus be reached to either 1) remove this entry entirely as Mr. Molyneux is totally irrelevant or 2) correct the neutrality of the entry.

From 2009

Stefan Molyneux (born 24 September 1966)[1] is a blogger, essayist, author, and host of the Freedomain Radio[2] series of podcasts, living in Mississauga, Canada. He has written numerous articles and smaller essays which have been published on liberty oriented websites such as LewRockwell.com, antiwar.com and Strike The Root, recorded over a 1300 podcasts and written numerous books which all are self-published except for his first which was published by Publish America. In 2006 Stefan Molyneux quit his previous job in the field of computer software to be able to work full-time on Freedomain Radio, a philosophical community website which is completely funded fans of his work through donations and subscriptions of extra media and forum sections.

Now in Late 2021

Stefan Basil Molyneux (/stəˈfæn ˈmɒlɪnjuː/; born September 24, 1966) is an Irish-born Canadian far-right white nationalist[2][3][4] and white supremacist[5][6] podcaster, blogger, author, political commentator, and banned YouTuber, who promotes conspiracy theories, scientific racism, eugenics, and racist views.[7][8][9][10][11][12] As of September 2020, Molyneux has been permanently banned or permanently suspended from PayPal, Mailchimp, YouTube, Twitter and SoundCloud, all for violating hate speech policies.[13][14][15][16][17]

Molyneux is described as a leading figure of the alt-right movement by Politico and The Washington Post, and as far-right by The New York Times.[18][19][20][21] Tom Clements in The Independent describes Molyneux as "an alt-lite philosopher with a perverse fixation on race and IQ."[22] Molyneux describes himself as an anarcho-capitalist.[18]

Multiple sources describe the Freedomain internet community as a cult, referring to the indoctrination techniques Molyneux has used as its leader.[23][24][25][26] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 04:08, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

--- Those sources are obviously polemical. Read what the authors write, they are obviously click bait political hacks. Is Daily Wire a legitimate source?

""The Laundry List of References may indicate a lack of NPOV, and the judgement-conclusion in the first sentence reflects a lack of NPOV""

Twenty references used in the first sentence is a laundry list supporting a conclusion that Molyneux is a white nationalist, white supremist. The laundry list is in itself an argument to support the conclusion and therefore is not presenting neutral information in a neutral tone. The subject is being lambasted with an irrefutable list, a laundry list. We really don't know the reasoning as to why he was de-platformed and the major social media networks intentionally don't provide a reason for doing so.

A fact about Molyneux is that he was de-plaformed. That fact in itself is neutral. Molynenux engages in rhetoric which resulted in his de-platforming.

Have you any sources for your changes?

And no we will not either change it or delete it. We will change it or keep it as it is.Slatersteven (talk) 17:02, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

By the way, the reason we have a laundry list of sources is the constant claims to provide RS calling him this. Technically they should not be in the lead, but rather used in the body.Slatersteven (talk) 17:04, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

And we do know why RS said he was deplatformed, we go with that RS say.Slatersteven (talk) 17:09, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

• When it comes to public figures like Mr. Molyneux, we have to reflect what the sources say, even if the article's subject might dislike or be unhappy with it. And the fact is that his promotion of white supremacy and conspiracy theories is what he is most notable for and has extremely heavy coverage - more than enough to satisfy WP:BLP. --Aquillion (talk) 21:36, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

What I have found 1) The Southern Policy Law Center presents a chronology of Molenuex's rhetoric along with an analysis of his methodology.SPLC Research Re Molyneux - Position Paper 2) The same type of Chronology can be seen on the wikipedia page of David Duke 3) A big difference between the two is that Molenuex churns out a huge amount of rhetoric and Duke is less esoteric 3b) the SPLC speaks to the amount of rhetoric as a propaganda strategy 4) Opinion and Research - The SPLC piece is both research and opinion - it cites example to present an argument. 4b) None of the articles cited speak to fact - they just parrot . 5) When I looked at The numerous sources cited in the first lines of Wikipedia article they share the same quotations and they derive from an event which is de-platforming; they don't even contain references of the primary source that can be found in SPLC - the source that argues that Molyneux is "evil" ; The CEO of Britannica speaks to this; "We live in a world where we’re actually consuming more information, but processing less and less information. When you look at how the search and social engines work, it’s based on popularity — what are people likely to click on? And scandalous information — not the truth kind of information — seems to be the one that’s coming to the top. 6) The reason fact and NPOV has to be established is that the tone of this article has a parallel to McCarthyism - although repeated Ad nauseam in external sources and then cited here; the conclusion being drawn is an argument without proof or substantiation; The motivation of Molineux might be profit, followers, narcissism, mental illness, or just pure rhetoric. He might believe what he believes; He might be making arguments to absurdum 7) What is your responsibility here? I don't think it has been met. It has to be toned down to neutral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 02:54, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

His statement to counter the public condemnation - The right to defend yourself in light of public opinion or condemnation is essential to a free society '

Race The major human races diverged tens of thousands of years ago, and had to adapt to very different environments – from brutal Siberian winters to the lush dangers of the tropics.

These varied environments posed unique challenges to our evolution, and gave each race its particular characteristics. Some people refer to these as “strengths” and “weaknesses,” but I strongly oppose such judgments.

Evolutionarily speaking, the words “strengths” and “weaknesses” are mostly meaningless – especially when talking about different environments. All creatures strive their best to adapt to their local environments.

I do not believe that any race is “superior” or “inferior.” I accept the biological facts that some racial differences exist, because philosophy teaches us to accept facts – even if they make us uncomfortable. (The virtue of intellectual courage is only required when contemplating uncomfortable facts.)

Philosophy also teaches us to avoid judging individuals by group averages – although women may be shorter than men in general, you can never prejudge any individual woman as being shorter than the average man.

I would love nothing more than to live in a world where we treated people as individuals – Martin Luther King’s dream of judging people by the content of their character rather than the color of their skin – but there is a growing group of people who claim that all differences in outcomes for various groups result from (usually white/male) bigotry, and that is an unjust and incorrect claim.

Although there are many talented Chinese basketball players, we would not expect the majority of professional players to be Chinese, for various historical, cultural, and physical reasons.

Average tested IQ levels vary among different ethnicities – again, we must never judge individuals by group averages, but group averages nonetheless exist, and play at least a part in social and economic outcomes.

I have always believed – and taught – that human beings can only resolve conflicts via reason and evidence. We can only meet and find peace in reality – not in ideology or fantasy or wish fulfillment or rage or, strangely enough, in the racial prejudice that results from denying average group differences.

I talk about these issues because I wish to help de-escalate increasing ethnic tensions and hostility, so we can have a reasonable conversation about these issues without coming to open violence, which will be our inevitable destination if these conversations continue to be suppressed.

I believe in equality before the law and reject any and all laws based on race. No race should “rule” or dominate any other race.

Eugenics is a government program that uses force to control people’s reproductive choices and is utterly immoral.

I am not an “ethno-nationalist” but an advocate for a stateless society. In a truly free society, people can live however they choose, as long as they do not initiate the use of force. The violence required to create an “ethno-state” would be a monstrous violation of the non-aggression principle, and should be utterly condemned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 04:46, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Of course he denies it, most racists do. But he is not an RS for what he is. At best we can say "but he denies this".Slatersteven (talk) 11:32, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

I think that is the solution "At best we can say "but he denies this" <-because then there is balance aka NPOV in this article: its impossible to know what people believe and its impossible to refute what people believe - that is why the David Duke article is more professional; Duke actually does things in the real world which can be monitored and are part of a chronology; Molineux a creature of rhetoric and he has thousands and thousands of hours of bloviation. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.203.10.104 (talk) 15:36, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Which is why we go with how RS (and particularly those who study the subject) interpret it. They will have studied his rhetoric, and compared it to what others say.Slatersteven (talk) 15:44, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Also, inserting a blanket denial ("but he denies this") would be useless, see Wikipedia:Mandy Rice-Davies applies. TucanHolmes (talk) 13:53, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

"Of course he denies it, most racists do." Do you have a source for that Slatersteven? Do you realize what slander is? Putting this at the top of his page is definitely biased. If I look up Bill Cosby's wikipedia article, I don't see "convicted sex offender" in the first sentence, even though that is what he is most famous for in the past half-decade. You can find hundreds of RS for that. Very disturbing trend at Wikipedia, completely biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 133.159.121.130 (talk) 07:31, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Well Bill Cosby is not a pundit, who makes his money from what he says. That is the point with Molyneux, he makes his living by what he says. Slatersteven (talk) 09:48, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

Why is what he does for a living even remotely relevant to the discussion of bias on the page? 173.8.33.245 (talk) 20:56, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Doug Weller's deletion of these personal attacks was perfectly appropriate.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
At 'Slatersteven': Your logic here is utter nonsense. For your information, I came here to find out who Molyneux is, for I had never heard of him. I scanned the opening wiki paragraphs, discerned that they display smear language, and immediately clicked on 'talk' to see if any others have been repelled by the language. Quite apparently, many have. It is ironic that in the excerpt of his own self description, posted on this talk page above, I find what I came for - a brief summary of his stated position on things. Now he may be in many ways a hypocrite - I do not know. But I am not stupid - what he writes is not a denial. He is not rebutting anyone. He is simply asserting the beliefs he holds. Any man is nothing more and nothing less than what he himself says and does. Certainly there may be incongruity and even contradictions in those truths, but they remain the fundamental truth. What others think may be of interest, but it is not central. That there are apparently many tertiary sources that are severely critical of him is most appropriately documented under a section entitled 'Reception' or 'Criticism'. Indeed, if you wish to shine light on a man's contradictions, it is best to factually document those contradictions by juxtaposing and sourcing his own conflicting statements. Ad hominem linguistic bullying with vague opinionated labels like 'racist' and 'white supremacist' only cast a shadow on you, at least in the eyes of any thoughtful person. If you wish to use such words, they must be presented in a neutral point of view context. For example, you might demonstrate and source a contradiction, and then state "as a consequence, some have classified him as racist", being careful to cite sources refering to those who have so opined. It is not incumbent upon you to proffer the opinion yourself, nor is it legitimate to simply parrot another's opinion, however well sourced. That is heresay, and invariably, there will be those who hold opposing opinions, however heinous an individual may actually be. By using the word 'some', you, as an editor, remain neutral, and allow for the possible existence of dissent. Thereby you maintain the integrity of the article and wikipedia as a whole. Indeed, if the contradictions, as well as opinions expressed by others, are overwhelmingly numerous, you could be justified in using the word 'many' instead of 'some', while still preserving your neutrality and the integrity of wikipedia. In conclusion, I find this particular wikipedia article to be incredibly sub-standard. Articles like this, that sacrifice objectivity and neutrality in service to the current vogue for neo-liberal propagandist language (neo-conservative propaganda is equally anathema) degrade the credibility of the wikipedia as a general reference source. In fact, in these times, I have concluded that many who scream 'racist' most loudly are, in fact the most racist among us, or worse, they are the true fascists: utterly intolerant of views that deviate even slightly from their own. This is your encyclopedia now. I stopped editing it years ago. Surely you are intelligent enough to understand the principle of 'a house divided against itself can not stand'. By systematically traveling the path you have taken in the last decade, you only move closer to a world in which the wikipedia is untrusted and irrelevant. 2001:569:5202:1900:29BD:23B0:5B0C:F7BD (talk) 06:46, 5 July 2022 (UTC) Posted to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Stefan_Molyneux So typical ... immediately deleting a coherent disinterested call to actually serve the interests of wikipedia users. You waste the time of your user base Mr. Slater. It can lead no where good. 2001:569:5202:1900:29BD:23B0:5B0C:F7BD (talk) 07:49, 5 July 2022 (UTC) (Immediately reposted with addendum after nearly immediate summary deletion of the original post. Edited with clarifying and explanatory addenda the next day - thank you for not deleting the remarks a second time, as I half expected to find.) It seems I spoke too soon. The second deletion has now happened. Alas, maybe I can get through to a man who seems to use precisely the tactics that WP:NOTDUMB and Civil POV pushing, as well as other policies try to prohibit. Indeed Mr. Slater, it seems to me you are WP:Wikilawyering. In your note to me on 'my' talk page you project your own behavior on me, when I have done none of the things of which you accuse me. In fact, I have read more of the wikipedia guidelines than most editors I've encountered over the years. I'm thoroughly familiar with the policies you cited to me. That I no longer edit is an irrelevant point. I am a wikipedia user, and I value a wikipedia that maintains a neutral point of view, where I can efficiently answer simple questions without wasting enormous amounts of time wading through prejudicial tripe. I am in no way 'threatening' you to "get my way". I merely point out that the user base is also "not dumb". People are smart enough to see when a presentation is biased, and even now on this talk page, there is plenty of evidence that some care enough to point out that bias. Inferior articles genuinely degrade the reputation of the wikipedia. As for "reliable sources" (wp:rs) and "original research" (wp:or), I am not in any way suggesting that these policies be ignored. I am making quite reasonable suggestions about how you might maintain a neutral point of view by more strictly adhering to these very policies. It is clear to me, having read this talk page, and having read your personal talk page, that you have an agenda and distort wikipedia policies to suit your agenda. This is the projection you are imposing on me. I am not trying to "get my way", while it is apparent that you have repeatedly done that with the history of this article. Ultimately, I do not care what happens to this article. I came here for an answer, and I got my answer. I really don't care about Molyneux. I do not defend him and I do not disclaim him. I do care about a credible wikipedia and a positive user experience. It is entirely appropriate to address you directly here on this page, for any intelligent reader can see from the material that is already here, let alone the deletions in the history, that wikipedia policies are being grossly abused in the bullying of other potential contributors and the prejudicial presentations. I am in ACTUAL FACT, discussing the content of this article. This IS a terrible article. It is one of very minor importance, and I suppose that is why you can get away with your behaviour. Few would care enough about the topic to seriously oppose you. Indeed I myself do not care about the topic. I am addressing you directly because it seems to me, you are the one who is excluding others from making any suggestions, let alone contributions. That degrades all wikipedia editors. It is wrong behaviour. If you can not contain your prejudices, perhaps you should recuse yourself from editing controversial topics. In any event, summarily deleting legitimate criticism of the article clearly violates wp:talk policy. Civil discussion can only occur when there is tolerance of suggestions made by others. I don't expect to "get my way". I do expect to be respectfully heard and I expect my suggestions to survive long enough for other editors to view and discuss them. I see that you are retired and on vacation. I am also retired, not just from employment, but also from the wikipedia. Ironically, had you simply allowed my original post to stand, I would have quietly gone my way. At this juncture, I am tempted to re-enlist as an editor solely for the purpose of filing a formal complaint against the violations of wikipedia policies that are apparent in this article's history. No, that is not a 'threat'. It is completely within my rights as a former editor and is a possibility that conforms with current wikipedia policy. I'll have to think about whether it is worth the trouble. 2001:569:5202:1900:CD50:BD21:8FBB:DE24 (talk) 20:51, 5 July 2022 (UTC) This is a violation of wp:soap and or wp:forum, in addition it violates wp:npa, as to it seems to be about me, the the subject of the article. Slatersteven (talk) 16:24, 7 July 2022 (UTC) User:Doug Weller's deletion of these personal attacks was perfectly appropriate. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:34, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

Redundancy

Normally I'd just make the edit without bothering to ask, but this is the sort of article where consensus is needed for every detail.

The stuff about Tom Bell is a) relevant and b) in here twice. Should it be in the "de-fooing" section, or the "cult" section? DS (talk) 02:43, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

good point , moved. Slatersteven (talk) 09:26, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

RS Issues

Footnotes 2-7 are cited at the top of the article in support of the conclusory statements that the subject is a "far-right white nationalist and white supremacist." Most of the cited sources consist of articles summarily reporting on YouTube's decision to ban the subject (among other individuals) without any objective analysis of his views, i.e., "The channels repeatedly violated YouTube’s policies, a YouTube spokesperson said, by alleging that members of protected groups were inferior." The only source that falls outside of the foregoing parameters mentions the subject in passing, using conclusory language, i.e., "While a guest on white supremacist, right-libertarian Stefan Molyneux's podcast, Peterson specifically appealed to Herrnstein and Murray's The Bell Curve (Herrnstein and Murray, 1994) to support his views [...]". I have no particular love or hate for the subject; however, I agree with the sentiment of many on this page that the article has been hijacked by folks with a political agenda who are actively degrading the objectivity and, therefore, the quality of mighty Wikipedia. I certainly think the article should not ignore the allegations of racism, but such discussion should be limited to the "criticism" section as others have suggested. 173.8.33.245 (talk) 21:23, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

On Wikipedia, facts about which all reliable sources agree are stated as facts. We do not WP:WHITEWASH BLP (or any other) articles. Newimpartial (talk) 21:59, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

What are these reliable sources? I looked at some of his works. I googled around and found a lot of sources who did not seem to hear his podcast. The just accused him of things they did not even know about by putting quotes and stories without full context.

This would mean creating a lot of sources with misleading information would consensual make it legit - thats wrong. 88.69.146.45 (talk) 13:31, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

If you wish to challenge the sources we use take it to wp:rsn. And demonstrate there that they do not have a reputation for fact checking. Slatersteven (talk) 13:35, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Criticism in intro/summary

The criticism from david gordon is out of place in the introduction and should be removed or moved to the criticism section of the article. The opinion of david gordon is out of place and does not add enough information about molyneux to warrant inclusion in that section. Perhaps a sentence along the lines of "Molyneux's writings have drawn extensive criticism from intellectuals who question Molyneux's intellectual rigor". 179.6.207.8 (talk) 20:56, 5 October 2022 (UTC)

Not technically far-right. He's anarcho-capitalist.

Far right means hyper-nationalist and white nationalist. Because he is an anarchist, he technically is not far-right or alt-right. He is a fringe anarcho-capitalist racist conspiracy theorist. 76.113.227.254 (talk) 06:04, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia goes by reliable sources. You are not the first person to claim on this talk page that there is some contradiction between being far-right and anarcho-capitalist, but reliable sources do not, in general, treat this as an important refutation. There are a lot of reasons sources don't take this position seriously, but for our purposes, we would need sources explain this as a contradiction as it relates to Molyneux by name. Using sources which are not about Molyneux but are about anarcho-capitalism would likely be WP:SYNTH for anything in this article. Grayfell (talk) 07:40, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

There are no sources that support the claim that he is a white nationalist or far right. There are sources that make that claim but they don't support it. I doubt he claims to be far-right. What does he claim to be and why isn't that listed? 68.6.71.154 (talk) 18:18, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

He is a libertarian according to Southern Poverty law Center. A libertarian is not far-right.

https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-hate/extremist-files/individual/stefan-molyneux 68.6.71.154 (talk) 18:22, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Upon re-reading his entry there is nothing listed that evidences his as being far-right or alt-right. 68.6.71.154 (talk) 18:25, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

We go by what RS say (for example) the above source lists his ideology as "alt-right", and ", shifting from the Ayn Rand libertarian right (and from supporting Ron Paul in 2008) to the ethno-nationalist far-right,"). Slatersteven (talk) 18:27, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I’m pretty sure AnCap is just a non-authoritarian far right philosophy and your definition is incorrect. Dronebogus (talk) 08:22, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Source for the claim he is an anarchist? Slatersteven (talk) 10:35, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

Eugenics in the lede?

The lede states that Molyneux promotes eugenics to his audience, and does so in wikivoice. However, the only other mention of the word in the entire article is an attributed statement coming from the SPLC, which doesn't even elaborate on what exactly his promotion of eugenics entails. The article needs better sources that elaborate on the subjects pro-eugenics positions, otherwise specifically mentioning eugenics in the lede is WP:UNDUE. 46.97.170.11 (talk) 12:17, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

I agree that it should be removed from the lede - looking at the SPLC link, it looks like by "promotes eugenics" they mean "has interviewed a few people who believe in eugenics". It's a nonsense claim. Korny O'Near (talk) 16:46, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

This is WP:OR. SPLC is a reliable source, the question isn't whether Molyneux promotes Eugenics or not, but whether or not high quality reliable sources report on it to such an extent that justify emphasizing it in the lede, using in wikivoice. The attributed statement by the SPLC is not a problem, only the mention in the lede. 46.97.170.11 (talk) 11:28, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

I made the change. Korny O'Near (talk) 16:33, 7 February 2023 (UTC)