Talk:Stornoway

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I have removed the following section, as while it may be accurate it's not in the slightest bit neutral.

Controversial Sundays[edit]

Stornoway has become the butt of jokes throughout Scotland and indeed the UK for the lack of amenities and facilities available for locals and tourists on Sundays, Indeed only one filling station currently opens on a Sunday (along with the Stornoway Airport). The refusal to trade and indeed travel by ferry off the Island from Stornoway on Sunday had been put down to the oppressive hold the local church has over the businessmen and indeed the Western Isles Council. In terms of Scottish and indeed British tradition this particular example of backward idealism only survives in the Western Isles, where the Sabbath remains to be considered Holy.

Despite only 10% of the population actually going to church on a regular basis, there seems to be a lucrative niche for any business that is willing to take advantage of the demands from the silent majority and trade on a Sunday. Undeniably recent Sunday ferry sailings from North Uist to Harris and the opening of Stornoway Airport on Sundays is a step forward for the island. In reality, it is only a matter of time before the majority of viable businesses are trading on a Sunday. The argument for this becomes somewhat stronger considering almost all Licensed Premises in the town have permission to sell alcohol on the Sabbath, yet it is considered taboo to enquire about buying a Sunday newspaper.

--Mgdm 13:15, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Mate, who cares? If you actually did research to find out how many reisdents actually want stuff to open on Sundays, you'd get a totally different result. --Allanmac9 11:34, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The comments about Sunday trading are out of date. There are small changes every year. 80.189.149.107 (talk) 23:23, 27 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mate - the question is not what does a resident want to do - but what CAN they do? And asking a resident to answer a question of potential intention by "doing research" will give a different 'answer' to that of what they would do if the 'free choice' was there. And THAT is the point of discussion here - 'free choice'. Freedom to indulge in worship, freedom not to indulge in worship, freedom to indulge in commercial, travel, leisure or frivilous activities - and freedom not to do so if one wishes. I happily and without thought allow you your choice - why do you deny me mine? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.35.219.102 (talk) 12:38, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality[edit]

There is nothing untrue, and it is completeley neutral from a Wikipedia member from Stornoway. I indeed personally studied this particular topic for my Sociology degree in Glasgow. I will not re-post the article if you can tell me what you beleive as not being neutral.


It was the phrasing like "oppressive hold", "backward idealism" etc that could be considered offensive, which is what I was trying to avoid. For what it's worth, I live in Stornoway and I would quite like ferries on Sunday, but I don't want to stir up the argument on here. What you wrote is mostly factually correct but some of it seemed more like opinion than actual fact. That's all. --Mgdm 19:36, 25 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well why did you not just soften down what i wrote? I'm sure these phrases can be edited and replaced without taking out a vital element in the description of island life. I think that this issue is very important, especially in Stornoway and the islands. Feel free to edit the section, but please dont remove it. Cheers

Ok, I'll have another look when I have a bit more time. --Mgdm 09:09, 27 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Controversial Sundays[edit]

This section was added again after it had been removed. Feel free to edit it if you like, but do not remove it as it will just be re-posted, I'm sure if you run a google search you will find that there is nothing in this article that is wrong or untrue. If it is removed, don't expect it to be for long... but feel free to edit it

Neutrality[edit]

Even the title "Controversial Sundays" is far from neutral. Rather than imposing your political (even local political) views on anyone reading about Stornoway, a more reasonable approach would be a single line sentence to say that in Stornoway Sundays are still observed as days of rest; however, many people would like more amenities to be available. Then link that single sentence to a new page describing the phenomenon. This could then be used for both Stornoway and Lewis articles. I'm not going to bother making this change myself for now as you all seem to just be ping-ponging the (very poorly written) piece between existing and not existing. If people could agree on this, or accept it, I'd be happy to draft the needed changes some time soonish (within the next 2 weeks) and make it far, far less biased.

If this was on a separate page, then normal Wikipedians would no longer feel intimidated to edit the main Stornoway page in case of getting caught up in such an argument.

If you have any statistics such as "99% of all cucumber eaters in Lewis want Sunday ferries", please provide the source of those statistics. Otherwise, they should not be included.

Sounds fine to me. I had intended to do something similar but not got round to it yet. --Mgdm 09:07, 1 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Item was re-listed with a new name. If it is removed again it WILL be re-posted. I have no problems with people editing the page if they feel the need, but if it is removed or vandalised it will be returned to its original state...

The original version read like the manifesto of a radical Atheist group (which is a bit of an oxymoron). The constant re-insertion of a very flawed piece of writing was the true vandalism in this article. It has now been re-drafted in a much more balanced manner. There is a danger, however, with my new draft, that it has gone slightly too far the other way (certainly not as far as the original). Please feel free to move it towards the centre-ground, and definitely feel free to wikify (I'm no expert on the standards used). I genuinely feel that the new version presents both sides of the argument in a way that provides useful information rather than the prior, aggresive version.

Agreed... It reads a little bit like it was written by a member of the LDOS, but I won't be making further changes as it seems to describe the tradition in a more positive light than it did before.

User 212.36.181.65 has a history of vandalism, check his/her edits to Henrik Larsson and UK for examples. Their vandalism of Stornoway was reverted, and if repeated, I will request a temporary blocking.

There is nothing wrong or remotely POV with stating that the status of the Sunday/Sabbath is "controversial" in Stornoway/Lewis - this is exactly the case as is amply demonstrated by the constant warring and debates that go on within the local papers, councils etc and protests against various sunday openings or services. If somebody feels to strongly against the inclusion of the word "controversial" it should be very, very easy to find numerous online examples which show the description as valid. siarach 18:11, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"Controversial" in the title lacks neutrality. "Controversial" in the text, could be ok.

Sounds reasonable to me. siarach 19:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think Sabbath is the best title for this section, the religious nature of the day is the crix of the whole matter. It was changed to Sundays by our friend above, the one with the histroy of vandalism. Andrewrpalmer 13:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Sections, more content[edit]

I've split the page into sections and added some more content - thoughts? It may need copy-editing, and any Gaelic bits are likely to be misspelt. The history section is very thin, so please expand it, or we could contact the Stornoway Historical Society to see if they would like to write or have already something suitable? Andrewrpalmer 16:07, 24 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think the idea of contacting the stornoway comunn eachrdraidh or historical society or whatever they have is an excellent one. siarach 13:03, 27 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'll drop them an email this week and ask them Andrewrpalmer 13:29, 29 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Historical Society reply[edit]

Hullo Andrew,

Thank you for your query.

A general overview of Stornoway's history is to be found on our website at www.stornowayhistoricalsociety.org.uk/stornoway You may use the infomation but please use your own wording.

As regards those with Stornoway connections; there are a few I wouldn not include on your list.

Calum Kennedy was born and brought up in Orinsay, Lochs, Isle of Lewis, not Stornoway. Angus Graham, was from Habost, Ness, Isle of Lewis, not Stornoway Angus Macaskill, the giant may have lived in Stornoway briefly but is strongly associated with Berneray, Harris (or North Uist as it would now be). John Wayne's Morrison ancestors came from Ness, Isle of Lewis, not Stornoway. Calum Macdonald, our former MP was brought up at Claypark, Garrabost, Point, Isle of Lewis.

Other noted people born in Stornoway include

Colonel Colin Mackenzie (1754-1821), 1st Surveyor-General of India http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colin_Mackenzie

Kenneth Morison (1806-61), founder of the Railway Clearing House http://www.stornowayhistoricalsociety.org.uk/features/kmorison/ Again please feel free to use the information but in your own words only.

Thomas F. Macleod (1873-1960), Antarctic explorer who sailed with Scott and Shackleton. http://www.stornowayhistoricalsociety.org.uk/features/churches/TomMcleod.php Again the information can be used but with you own wording.

Professor Robert M. Maciver (1882-1970), Professor of Applied Sociology, Columbia University, New York. I think the American Assocation of Sociology have a feature on him on their website. I can't remember the link.

Also: Aeneas Mackenzie (1889-1962), Hollywood screenwriter. Worked on The Ten Commandments (1956), 'They Died With Their Boots On (1942). Try IMdb.com. He also worked on a draft script of 'Casablanca' (1942) but he was not credited.

I take a closer look at the whole article and get back to you.

William Foulger Vice-Chair Stornoway Historical Society

Muslims in Stornoway[edit]

In his 2002 book "Islam Today", Akbar S. Ahmed's discusses the Muslim community in Stornoway who are Pakastani in origin but are well integrated. Ahmed, who has taught at Harvard and Cambridge said he took a trip up to Stornoway to find out for himself. One Muslim whom he met there said, "We are real Scots but also Muslims." (p181) He says they do not violate the Sunday codes. In his 1986 study, "Pakistan Society: Islam, Ethnicity and Leadership in South Asia", Ahmed learned that a Pakastani traveller first arrived in Stornoway in the 1930's -they are Arian from the Punjab in Pakistan. They both work for and employ Scottish natives. Ahmed is a great and sensative writer -I recommend his book "Islam Today".

I will post this on the main page unless something comes up. -Teetotaler 1/7/07 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 75.68.22.207 (talk) 06:37, 7 January 2007 (UTC).[reply]

After reading the Prof. Ahmed´s Book, I came to comclusion that it a onesided book on Islam. He writes, as if the Islam is best solution for the world, but in reality, Islam does NOT has a solution. It is just a noise.

It does not sound as though you actually read the book, which does not suggest that Islam is the best solution for the world. However, it seems you are just adding POV material here, which is against Wikipedia guidelines, which requires material to be NPOV. Also, the unnamed writer is using a very silly kind of logic -an informal fallacious kind of reasoning known as the Either/Or Fallacy or a False Dilemma. Your reasoning states that either Islam is the best solution for the world or it is just a noise. I am guessing you would leave the conclusion up to a coin toss if empirical data is unobtainable? I recommend a reason-intoxicated person such as yourself actually go out into the real world of sobriety and study Logic -a subject which was invented for the European continent by Aristotle, whose writings on Logic and other subjects (such as Zoology and Biology) were banned from Europe by the church in the early 6th century. Luckily, Aristotle's works were translated into Arabic and re-entered Europe during the Golden Age of Moorish Spain when the Muslims began translating Aristotle into Latin and all religions were tolerated. -Teetotaler 26 November, 2007

Famous People - who qualifies?[edit]

I have added a section to the talk page for WikiProject Scottish Isles here. If you have any input, please raise it there as this is an issue for several articles, not just this one. MRM (talk) 12:30, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Religion[edit]

I have cut down hugely on the Sabbath section, instead leaving a link to a main article on Religion in the Outer Hebrides.

Nonetheless, this leaves the new Religion (instead of Sabbath) section requiring expansion. I was thinking of mentioning denominations with a significant presence or any important historical information - but I lack the knowledge to fill this in in depth.

The main reason for this is that the text we had was rather namby-pamby and the result of placating certain users intent on POV pushing on this article, where it really had no place. However, the peculiarities of the Sabbath in Stornoway are worth mentioning.

The main article is as below:

Main article: Religion in the Outer Hebrides

The text of the Stornoway article has been kept verbatim for others to edit.MRM (talk) 07:16, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be a lot happier with a "main" article that was not so full of clean up tags and which had a proper section heading for the islands south of Harris but in general I think this is the right approach. Michael Pacione (2005) "The Geography of Religious Affiliation in Scotland" is potentially helpful, although the treatment of the Highlands and Islands is weak. Failing that W.H. Murray and Keay probably have something. Ben MacDui 14:45, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I know it's very messy at the moment but wanted to leave it like that for a while before tidying to avoid those who insisted on it being in Stornoway and Lewis in very negative ways pushing their own agenda trying to reinsert it. Now it's in its own place, it can be properly tidied. I agree it needs much more about the Southern Isles and it needs a huge tidy - but I'm much happier with the Stornoway/Lewis articles not being messed up with this stuff.MRM (talk) 15:09, 7 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

undersea tunnel[edit]

This seems a massively unreal suggestion. Channel tunnel cost £9 billion several decades ago. Did anyone worth listening to really think that the economics of this could stack up? Refs are cited but the only one that works (the Independent) doesn't say who came up either the suggestion. I suggest removing this. FDent (talk) 19:13, 20 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

3rd largest town in the Highlands?[edit]

I'm not sure that Stornoway is the third largest town in the Highlands. Nairn has a population of 9,773 for the town alone, and 12,000 for the wider area.

89.241.78.247 (talk) 11:13, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You are right, I think. That claim is dubious, not least because there is no clear definition of what exactly the term "Highlands" covers. Elgin, or Kirkwall, for example could be included in some definitions of the Highlands – Elgin is more populous than Stornoway and Kirkwall may be too. I will remove the statement for now, though it could be re-added if someone finds a clearer definition with a reliable source. --Deskford (talk) 11:42, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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External links removed[edit]

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