Talk:Túrin Turambar/Archive 1

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The correct form of the Sindarin for "The Tale of the Children of Húrin" is 'Narn i Chín Húrin'. Christopher Tolkien changed this to Hín Húrin for 'Unfinished Tales' because he was afraid people would pronounce the word as English 'Chin' otherwise.

Reference: "Later Húrin", 'History of Middle-earth' series (I am looking up the exact book and page reference now). — Jor 20:11, Jan 6, 2004 (UTC)

That would be HoME5, "The Lost Road". Quote from the HarperCollins paperback edition of 1993, page 322 (discussion of chapter 17 of the Quenta Silmarillion): …now the Lay is expressly mentioned, and given the Elvish name iChúrinien. (…) It may be noted here that later iChúrinien was replaced by Narn i Chîn Húrin, which is so spelt al all occurances, but was improperly changed by me to Narn i Hîn Húrin in Unfinished Tales (because I did not want Chîn to be pronounced like Modern English chin). At word is Christoper Tolkien here, editor of both Unfinished Tales and the HoME. — Jor 20:22, Jan 6, 2004 (UTC)

The same paragraph refers to initial consonent variation in Exilic Noldorin (the language which would become Sindarin): because of the 'i' in the title of this work 'Hîn' becomes 'Chîn'. Another example is Dor Gyrth i chuinar (Land of the Dead that Live) (Letters #417) — this represents *Dor Gyrth in cuinar if ICV would not apply. (i vs in is a different issue in Sindarin). — Jor 20:32, Jan 6, 2004 (UTC)

Middle-earth suicides

As far as I can tell, out of all the characters in Tolkien's stories, who die in a wide variety of ways, there are only a handful who ever kill themselves. (I think this is likely significant coming from a Catholic. Tolkien would not have used suicide lightly.)

The only ones I can think of are:

1-Túrin

2-Nienor

3-Aerin, as mentioned in this article (although this is obscure)

4-Maedhros

5-Denethor

There are probably some random minor characters. However, we are still left with the bulk of Middle-earth suicides taking place in one story. I'm not counting people who grieve themselves to death, either.

Maybe I'm way out in left field, but I think this is interesting (and also a relevant and significant part of the whole Turambar story). Anyone else care to contradict/add/interpret? --Aranel 21:38, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Míriel Serindë’s desire to end her life might count as a form of suicide. Of course as a Catholic JRRT saw suicide as one of the biggest evils possible, so it is quite rare. [[User:Anárion|File:Anarion.png]] 22:45, 20 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Húrin Thalion comitted suicide by casting himself into the Sea, and Maedhros throws himself into "a gaping chasm filled with fire" after his loss of the Silmaril to Eonwë. He also, while imprisoned on Thangorodrim, begged Fingon to kill him. A.N.K. 21:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Don't forget Erendis, who drowns herself. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.170.129.14 (talk) 13:55, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

In some versions (e.g. the later version of The Lay of Leithian) Maglor drowns himself too. Double sharp (talk) 09:44, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Move to Túrin

Why not? It's no longer ambiguous with Turin; it's often the most natural link; and it's valid no matter what part of the character's life is being discussed. Septentrionalis 02:01, 18 August 2005 (UTC)

• OPPOSE why? 132.205.3.20 19:16, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
• oppose It seems that we use at least first name, last name for Middle-Earth characters with them. For example, Frodo Baggins, not Frodo. —Lowellian (reply) 19:18, August 18, 2005 (UTC)
  • Comment: That's because "Baggins" is a last name, heritable and all the rest. "Turambar" isn't. If Túrin had not been fooled by Glaurung, his children and nephews would not have been little Turambars. Bilbo's were. Septentrionalis 21:30, 18 August 2005 (UTC)
    • Little Bagginses, that is. Not little Turambars. ;) -Aranel ("Sarah") 02:11, 19 August 2005 (UTC)
      • Except there weren't any. Rich Farmbrough 13:33 24 April 2006 (UTC).
• Túrin Turambar is how he is usually listed and what he is called on his gravestone. I think he's usually listed that way in the various indices, but I'll have to wait to check when I unpack all my books. Also, people can link to Turin Turambar if they like and not go to Turin, the Italian city. Using the full name makes the distinction more obvious. -Aranel ("Sarah") 02:11, 19 August 2005 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. Dragons flight 14:54, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

Túrin and his prototype

Character of Túrin is very much based on another anti-hero from Kalevala-folklore, namely Kullervo. Kullervo was powerful, but he managed only to cause mischief and needless bloodshedding. Also, he married his sister as he did not recognize her, and finally committed a suicide after seeing everything he had done. Is this kind of information of any use, or would it just mess the article even a little more? Latexxi November 11 2005

I think it would be quite relevant to explain the similarities between Kullervo and Túrin instead of explaining the similarities between Túrin and Elric of Melniboné. It is quite clear that the similarities between Elric and Túrin exist only because they were both inspired by Kullervo. The sword thing is also from Kalevala. Kullervo ask the supreme god Ukko for a sword to slay his uncle and nemesis Untamo. In the end Kullervo commits suicide by impaling himself after the sword anwsers that it would gladly slay Kullervo, as it has also slain innocent people.91.153.140.115 (talk) 19:31, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

elric had an incestuous relationship with his cousin, cymoril, as well, and, more or less, accidentally caused her death. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.117.148.136 (talk) 07:32, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

References to Michael Moorecock's Elric

If anything, Tolkien was an inspiration to Moorcock, not the other way around. Tolkien's work predates Moorcock, with work on the Silmarillion going back to 1914 [1]. The Silmarillion was published posthumously in 1977 by son and editor Christopher Tolkien and is based on work unpublished during JRR's lifetime. The Lord of the Rings was published 1954 and The Hobbit was published in 1937. The earliest publications of Elric is in 1961 in Michael Moorcock’s novelette "The Dreaming City" (Science Fantasy #47 June 1961).

[1] #115, Carpenter, Humphrey, ed. (1981), The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien, Boston: Houghton Mifflin, ISBN 0-395-31555-7

I am making an edit to remove the portion of text stating that Moorecock's Elric was an inspiration for Turin Turambar, and I wanted to leave this note explaining the reason for the edit. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.23.142.84 (talk) 23:05, 1 January 2013 (UTC)

shortening family-tree

I think the lower section of the family-tree is rather unneccessary because the characters in this part haven't got anything to do with Túrin. If nobody is against it, I will delete the marriages of Adanel, Glóredhel, and Eärendil; and all that is linked to these.

References in other media

I was just playing Castlevania: Symphony of the Night and I stumbled upon a black sword which was called "Mormegil". There is also an icebrand which is said to belong to "Mîm". Should this be added to the article? Cyanid (talk) 13:19, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

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