Talk:Tamara Toumanova/Archive 1

Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo

Not Ballets Russes de Monte Carlo; but Ballets Russes without the de Monte Carlo is a different albeit related company. Which company is meant by this article? Ballet Russe de Monte Carlo, I should think. Robert Greer (talk) 22:27, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

It took about four minutes to find the answer and make the correction. Sincerely, GeorgeLouis (talk) 08:21, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! — Robert Greer (talk) 15:01, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

• Дедушка Тамары, Дмитрий Петрович Хасидович, со стороны отца происходил из Киевской губернии. Учился в Киевском военном училище.Имя и отчество даны его действительными родителями, а Хасидович фамилия приемных родителей.Вероисповедание - православный, как и все его дети. Польское происхождение возможно, только в случае, если настоящие родители Дмитрия из Польши.Но об этом знали только дети Дмитрия.Следующему, более позднему поколению, сообщалось, что родители Дмитрия умерли.Единственное, изестное мне,письмо от Владимира Дмитриевича из Парижа сестре Софьи было в 1929-30 годах.Shulyatikov (talk) 09:15, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit protected

Please make the following edit to a protected template: Just wanted to note that there is an inconsistency: the first sentence notes that she is of Polish and Armnian descent, while the article then correctly goes into a fair bit of detail that she is in fact Polish and Georgian, which is how she was known during her life, so I think the sentences got mixed up. The first line one should read Polish and Georgian descent and later in the article it should note that few sources also claimed her Armenian heritage (if the sources are credible, none of them seem to be in English). Hope this helps and inquire if you need further references the the ones given in the article, they are abundant and well documented

Thanks, Archie Zuckermann (talk) 11:18, 2 October 2011 (UTC)

Article is no longer protected. --Jnorton7558 (talk) 02:02, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear --Jnorton7558

Although the text is now open for editing, as before there seems to be one person, who keeps on changing the text back and is not engaging in a discussion(the reason why the article was locked in the first place, as there were too many edits). Currently the text makes no sense, as the first sentence contradicts the rest of the text (It notes that she if of Polish and Armnian descent, while the rest of the text goes into a lot of detail about her mother being a Georgian, which is correct). So the first line should note her Polish and Georgian (not Armnian) ancestry. Cited sources are primary sources that came either from Tamara herself, famous biographers or press at the time of her life. While sources noted by the other user are secondary and in other languages, so should be mentioned later in the text if at all. Would be good if the changes were made by an admin as per 08:42, 11 October 2011‎ 88.211.44.71 I am a biographer myself and have additional references if required made Tamara herself, her family, press and other biographers. --88.211.44.71 (talk) 10:22, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello, one of reliable sources provided (Людмила Ильинична Лопато, Волшебное зеркало воспоминаний, 2003г.) discusses the rumours on Toumanova's mothers Georgian origin and rejects it. Her mother was a Georgian princess, but of Armenian origin, as the whole Toumanishvili dinasty. Gazifikator (talk) 18:03, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, Ms. Lopato states that she was not a Princess while you states that she is and her gravestone has her title written on it, so Ms. Lopato is already at fault. Secondly she cannot know better than Tamara's own family and herself who stated she was a Georgian. Tumanishvili family descent from Mamikonids in the 12th century. If we go that far back then let me point out that according to Armenian scholar Adontz, Mamikonids themselves were of Georgian Laz decsent. Her mothers father was Georgian prince Tumanishvili and her mother was a Georgian Chkheidze and she was born in Georgia, this means that she is by no means an Armnian. --88.211.44.71 (talk) 14:01, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

so was the princess Mariam Toumanian (from Tbilisi) a Georgian? as you could see, many scholars (all of them are primary sources) and reporters of the time, including Rayner Heppenstall himself, see Toumanova as a half-Armenian. Gazifikator (talk) 15:34, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear Gazifikator, Princess Mariam was an Armenian Dolukhanian so hence she did a lot for the Armenian community, but carried the title of her husband Prince Tumanishvili (she is referred to as Princess Tumanian in Armenian sources only, no one else referred to her like that, as there were no Princes Tumanian). According to Cyrill Toumanoff, biggest authority on Georgian and Armenian families and a Toumanov himself, states, that of 5 Princely Toumanov family branches (because there are non related and non-titled Russian and Armenian Tumanovs also), only one branch was of Armenian faith (the rest were Georgian Orthodox), and in the case of Tumanovs of Armeno-Grigorian faith it occurred as a result of intermarriages with Armenian families, like the famous unions of Tumanov and Tamamshev and Aghamaloff (other Toumanov branches intermarried with Georgian families only, like Tamaras grandfather married Princess Chkhedize). On contrary to your Lopatova refernce, Tamara's mothers gravestone states that she was a Princess and has a Georgian-Orthodox cross on it (not Armenian), which proves once again she was not only Georgian born but ethnically Georgian and not only from Chkheidze side, but also from the Tumanishvili side. Ref:http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=8239&PIpi=426878. To reiterate my previous point, Mamikonids who the Toumanovs descend from were originally of Georgian descent even according to Armenian scholars (Adontz). --88.211.44.71 (talk) 09:51, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Dear Editor --Jnorton7558

The introductory paragraph is constantly being edited by an individual to some unreliable and unverified text. I am not sure if there is a way to limit the editing of the article. I am a biographer of Russians in emigration and looking to improve the quality of the article, which is made impossible by some people trying to promote their personal preferences rather than hard historical facts. --Biographyspot (talk) 10:34, 22 October 2011 (UTC) I agree with the opinion above. --Chelva28 (talk) 10:19, 04 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.130.237.11 (talk)

Отец и мать Владимира Дмитриевича Хасидович

Отец Дмитрий Петрович - мещанин Киевской губернии (точное место рождения и фамилия настоящих родителей, пока не знаю), мать Мария Васильевна - русская. VSH 18:14, 17 октября 2011 (UTC)

Отец и мать Владимира Дмитриевича Хасидович отца Тамары Тумановой

Отец Дмитрий Петрович - мещанин Киевской губернии (р. 1842 г - ск 16.10.1910 в возрасте 57 лет и 9 мес), мать Мария Васильевна - русская. Их дети 1.Хасидович Софья Дмитриевна р.12.08.1871 ск - 1949 2. Хасидович Надежда Дмитриевна р.30.10.1873 г ск - 3.Хасидович Николай Дмитриевич р.26.04.1876 г 4. Хасидович Василий Дмитриевич 12.01.1878 г 5. Хасидович Владимир Дмитриевич 19.04.1885 г.ск 1962 6. Хасидович Александр Дмитриевич 22.04.1889 г. 85.141.133.231 (talk) 18:12, 22 October 2011 (UTC)

Я думаю можно согласиться - Compromise needs to found

Тамару Туманову можно по происхождению отнести в категорию в том числе грузин и армян одновременно ?!. Это не умаляет роль этих народов.Ведь мать Евгении Дмитриевны - грузинка Чхеидзе.!? VSH 05:08, 23 октября 2011 (UTC)

Any reliable sources for Chkheidze? 93.80.131.30 (talk) 18:40, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Источник — «http://ru.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%81%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5:%D0%A2%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B0,_%D0%A2%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0_%D0%92%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BD%D0%B0&oldid=38651379»

Согласен, я думаю что текст " 21:00, 23 October 2011‎ 81.151.0.202" самый объективный и компромиссный --81.151.0.202 (talk) 21:04, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

Уважаемые, вот еще информация про брата Евгении Дмитриевны (мамы Тамары), Захария Туманова. Он к концу жизни проживал в Москве и был записан по национальности именно как грузин - http://lists.memo.ru/d33/f68.htm, но стоит отметить все конечно же. --Biographyspot (talk) 13:48, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

• Мать Евгении Дмитриевны - грузинка Чхеидзе.!? Это мне сказала Маргарита Дмитриевна Чхеидзе 22 октября 2011 года.VSH 05:08, 23 октября 2011 (UTC)

Не знаю, что вам сказала Чхеидзе, но есть много АИ, которые утвержают, что мать Тумановой была армянка, и есть книга, которая прямо опровергает ее якобы грузинское происхождение [1]. У вас есть АИ по Чхеидзе?93.80.131.30 18:38, 25 октября 2011 (UTC)

• Я пока не придерживаюсь одной точки зрения. Пытаюсь разобраться. Я много лет искал Хасидовичей, пока не нашел дела некоторых в военном архиве.Но мне кажется эта полемика о принадлежности Тамары Грузинам или Армянам не должна быть очень агресивной. Очень долго поисками Тамары Тумановой занимался основательно Рекемчук А.Е.Ему я верю. Маргарита Дмитриевна говорила мне только о грузинской родственнице. Нельзя исключать мужскую ветвь.Надо искать в юридических документах. Там не псевдонимы, а настоящие фамилии. Есть дела гимназий. Надо искать и приводить ссылки хотя бы в этом разделе. Тамара выдающаяся балерина, самоотверженная, а не повод для склок. Удивительно и печально, что после кончины Тамары, ни Грузинские, ни Армянские дипломаты, ни родственники не приняли участия в аукционе, на котором распродавались за бесценок вещи Тамары в 1996 году VSH 19:19, 25 октября 2011 (UTC)

Я тоже встречался с М Чхеидзе, она жива и здорова так что любой желающий сможет с ней пообщяться на эту тему. Если опираться на первоисточники т.е. на собственные утверждения Тумановой (как и отмечено в прессе ее времени [2]), на информацию ее семьи (Маргарита Чхеидзе которой Туманова переслала много ее личных вещей, общение Тумановой с ее двоюодным братом Г. Пхакадзе [3], известных экспертов на эту тему как А. Васильева [4], официальную государственную информацию про брата Евгении Дмитриевны, Захария, где четко отмечена его этническая принадлежность как грузина [5], а так же тот факт что на могиле ее мамы именно православный крест а не армянский [6]. У вас два основных источника г-жа Лопато которая отмечает что она не была княжной вообще, что обсурдно так как это неоспоримый факт (и отмечено на ее собственной могиле)что подрывает авторитет этого источника. Второй ваш источник эта книга г-на R Heppenstall который ее не знал и опирался чисто на фамилию Туманова которая есть и у армян (и у русских), и сделал предположения (г-н Chandras и первое издание (до поправки во втором издании) книги Васильева они ссылаются на R Heppenstall так что этот один и тот же источник). При этом, раз эта информация есть ее стоит внести, но это не должно быть как факт в первом предложении статьи, так что вариант где оба истоника отмечены в разделе ее личной жизни является самым оптимальным. --88.211.44.71 (talk) 10:39, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Can I just remind everyone that Wikipedia requests that its editors communicate in English on article talk pages, for the benefit of the wider community. This is particularly relevant when one of you is making edits referring to the "discussion pages consensus". Thanks. --McGeddon (talk) 10:55, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion in English: I agree with VSH, I have also spoken with Margarita Chkheidze who only noted Tamara's mothers Georgian roots, including her aunt, who was Tamara's grandmother. If we refer to primary sources like Tamara's personal statements (like the press at her time [7]), her immediate family's information (Tamara was in touch with M Chkhedize and sent her multiple memorabilia, her nephew Georgian artist G Pkhakadze, who she was in touch with [8] etc, also information from biggest experts on the subject like A Vassiliev [9], official documents (official documents on her mothers brothers, Zakharia Dmitrievich, death, where ethnicity is clearly noted as Georgian [10] and also the fact that her mothers grave has a Georgian Orthodox cross on it not Armenian [http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=pv&GRid=8239&PIpi=426878. The other party only notes two main sources: i) Ms Lopatas interview, where she states that Tamara's mother is not a princess at all, which is a subject that has never been disputed and is stated on her gravestone, so this source is thus unreliable and incorrect. Second source is from R Heppenstall's book, who did not know Tamara personally and made assumptions based on russified version of her mothers surname Toumanova, which can also be found amongst Armenians, but it was an assumption only (other sources like Mr. Changras book use R Heppenstall's book so its the same source). Since this information does exist, even if just based on unverified information, its important to have it noted, but it should not be in the opening sentences stated as fact, but rather in her personal section as per above mentioned discussion. --88.211.44.71 (talk) 12:30, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

RfC note

There is a dispute if Toumanova's mother had Armenian or Georgian roots.

I suggest that the Armenian roots (not Georgian) must be mentioned in the start of article, as the majority of reliable sources support this version. 95.27.30.196 (talk) 17:13, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

I disagree, she is clearly Georgian from above sources, including her stating her so herself! The sources noting her Armenian heritage only note two main sources: i) Ms Lopatas interview, where she states that Tamara's mother is not a princess at all, which is a subject that has never been disputed and is stated on her gravestone, so this source is thus unreliable and incorrect. Second source is from R Heppenstall's book, who did not know Tamara personally and made assumptions based on russified version of her mothers surname Toumanova, which can also be found amongst Armenians, but it was an assumption only (other sources like Mr. Changras book use R Heppenstall's book so its the same source). --88.211.44.71 (talk) 11:56, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Should go with the bulk of the evidence.Sngourd (talk) 18:28, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

For clarity, I've moved the list of sources into their own section below - other users were editing the list, after User:95.27.30.196 invited them to, making it unclear who had originally posted them, and bloating the RFC page. --McGeddon (talk) 15:17, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

This seems a little blurry - the sources talk variously about Toumanova's nationality, her mother's nationality and the nationality from which she is descended. It would be possible to have a Georgian mother and also to be of Armenian descent. In fact, all but one of the Armenian sources could be taken as describing an Armenian father, while still allowing for a Georgian mother.

Looking at the sources, we have Toumanova describing herself as "part Georgian", sources describing her mother as a "Georgian princess" and it seems clear that she has Georgian heritage. The only source that directly contradicts this is Lopato claiming in her -autobiography (?) that "Tamara was of Armenian-Polish descent, not a Georgian princess", but again, "Armenian-Polish descent" does not necessarily mean "daughter of an Armenian and a Pole", so this is only saying that the writer does not consider Toumanova to be a Georgian princess.

Do we have any more sources supporting the Armenian nationality of her mother? --McGeddon (talk) 12:00, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Sources supporting her alleged Armenian ancestry are scarce and vague at best. I have provided the article intro with some reliable sources citing her Georgian descent. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 15:28, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

You yourselves are a part of editwarring so please do not comment here to support your senceless version which needs to be reverted. The current text is just foolish with Some sources state that she was of Armenian descent and then Some sources write that Toumanova's mother is of Georgian descent. Read the text and then add something, man. In reality you're trolling not me.85.141.14.195 (talk) 13:37, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

All involved editors are encouraged to comment. Please refrain from making personal attacks. --McGeddon (talk) 13:42, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

• Briefly describe both views: Why not give a short paragraph addressing the two views and give the citations for both. Not much is needed. eg. Most historians say this (cite references), some historians say this (cite references). The difference is of interest to WP readers. DonaldRichardSands (talk) 12:21, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Sources

In support of Armenian version:

• "And the fact that Toumanova is only half Russian (half Armenian)...." Rayner Heppenstall, in his research of 1936, Apology for dancing, by , Faber and Faber ltd., 1936, p. 212.
• "russian ballerina of Armenian descent Tamara Toumanova", Russian researcher Mikhail Bliznyuk [11] book, Prekrasnaya Marusya Sava, 2007 [12]
• "Tamara was of Armenian-Polish descent, not a Georgian princess, as many people think". Lyudmila Lopato, a known Parisian vocalist who knew Toumanova personally, Волшебное зеркало воспоминаний, memoirs, 2003г., cit. "Тамара была армянско-польского происхождения, а вовсе не грузинской княжной Туманишвили, как многие думают"..
• Toumanova also listed as half-Armenian in Arab, Armenian, Syrian, Lebanese, East Indian, Pakistani, and Bangla Deshi Americans: a study guide and source book, Kananur V. Chandras, R&E Research Associates, 1977 - p. 44

In support of the Georgian version:

• Direct quotes by Tamara Toumanova and her mother:

- Book George Balanchine: The Ballet Maker by Robert Gottlieb p.136: Tamara Toumanova quote "He took real care of me...he used to love Mama and Papa...with my tristesse, with my being part Georgian." [13]

- The Hartford Courant Interview, 03 Nov 1934: "...her mother...Madame was a Georgian? But yes, certainly and did the interviewer know of the beauty of Georgia, the gallantry of the Georgian men and, ah, the loveliness..."[14]

• Her contemporary press articles and interviews stating her Georgian roots:

- Examiner, 19 Apr 1952: "...daughter of colonel and a Georgian princess" [15]

- Baby Ballerina Still on Her Toes at 76 20 Aug 1995, by Marc Shulgold (Music / Dance writer): "Tamara was a tempestuous Georgian lady..."[16]

• Statements made by her family and friends:

- Her nephew (grandson of her mothers brother, Zakaria Tumanishvili) Georgian artist G. Pkhakadze: "...they descend from a great Georgian family...our family in Tbilisi received a call from Tamara Toumanova with sad news of her mother passing away...she wanted her mother to be buried in Tbilisi, Georgia..." [17]

- Her niece, a famous pianist M. Chkheidze: "Eugenia Tumanishvili's mother was my aunt, a Georgian Princess Chkheidze...we would speak over the phone with Tamara and my brother managed to visit her in LA before she passed away...she would send us some of her memorabilia, but we did not find means to attend the auction of her unique memorabilia when it was auctioned after her death..." interview on 15 Nov 2004 by David Guigauri and interview by Mr. Shulyatikov on 22 Oct 2011

- Quote by Irina Baronova, Tamara's life long best friend from the age of 11 and a fellow "Baby Ballerina": "We never had a rivalry, Baronova insisted, "even though Tamara was a tempestuous Georgian lady..."[18]

- Statement by the great ballerina Nina Ananiashvili who knew Tamara personally: "It was a dream to meet one of the first legendary Georgian ballerinas.." "...a photograph was brought to me of Tamara in a Georgian dress..." [19]

• Official obituary from her residence town Los Angeles: LA Times: ..."The daughter of Imperial Russian Army Col. Khassidovitch Toumanov and a Georgian princess" [20]

• Official death record of her mothers brother Zakaria Toumanov/Tumanishvili in Russia: "...ethnicity: Georgian" [21]

• Her mothers grave with a Georgian Orthodox cross: [22]

• Research and books stating Tamara's Georgian origin:

- The Hound & Horn, Volume 7, 1933, p. 120: "Tamara Toumanova, a name that should soon be world-famed...she is Georgian, aged fifteen..."[23]

- Artists of the Dance by Lillian Moore, 1938, p.236: "...daughter of the colonel and a gentlewoman of aristocratic Georgian lineage." [24]

- Fashion & Style by A. Vasiliev: "she was born to...Khasidovich-Boretsky and a Georgian, Eugenia..." [25]

- A Glimpse of Olympus by Diana Menuhin, 1996, p.78: "Toumanova has a beautiful Georgian face..." [26]

- Official Russian site of television and theatre "Kino-Teatr": "...her mother was a Georgian, Eugenia...nee Tumanishvili.." [27].

• outside comment I agree with Robert Greer below that this is a really minor problem. When sources conflict, as they often do with respect to nationality since there are many different ways of determining it, say something like :of X and Y descent" in summary, And, if it is really felt necessary have a para giving very briefly the sources--I don't think it is in this case. But yes, give the references as is now done, so anyone who thinks this actually critically important information can then go read them. DGG ( talk ) 18:33, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

You're right maybe, I agree! As a neutral person please do it. 176.14.208.162 (talk) 04:36, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Еще мнение

• Дисскуссия может продлиться долго и она необходима в нашем случае. Может быть пока указывать двойной вариант происхождения: грузинско-армянского. Это позволит больше расскрыть творческие достижения Тамары в разные периоды времени и позволит показать образ человека творца художника. После разговоров с Маргаритой Чхеидзе, лично у меня сложилось убеждение, что Евгения мать Тамары грузинка. Я конечно читал воспоминания Лопатто и примечание о Тумановой. Но эти превосходные воспоминания лишь вскользь связаны с Тамарой. В отношении польского происхождения, я рассматриваю как возможный вариант (не окончательный), подлежащий уточнению.Shulyatikov (talk) 10:43, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Google translation

view more

Disskussiya can last a long time and it is necessary in this case. Can be specified as long as the double variant of Origin: Georgian-Armenian. This will allow more creative achievements rasskryt Tamara at different periods of time and will show the image of man the creator of the artist. After conversations with Margaret Chkheidze, personally, I have become convinced that Eugene's mother Tamara Georgian. Of course, I read memoirs and Lopatto note of Tumanov. But these excellent memories only marginally related to Tamara. In respect of Polish descent, I am considering as an option (not final), subject to confirmation— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bevo74 (talk • contribs) 12:59, 27 October 2011‎

Translation of the above comment: Discussion can still go on for a long time. Maybe we should show Georgian-Armenian heritage. This will allow to concentrate or artistic achievements of Tamara in different periods of her life. After my conversation with Margarita Chkhedize, my personal conviction, is that Eugenia, Tamara's mother, is a Georgian. I read Lopatos memoirs and her mention of Toumanova, but these interesting memoirs only very distantly touch Toumanova. Regarding her fathers Polish heritage, its possible, but requires further research. --88.211.44.71 (talk) 12:04, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Although its rather clear that her mother was of Georgian descent (as per above discussion and sources), I believe its irrelevant to mention in the first sentence and best to note both theories in the Personal Life section. --Biographyspot (talk) 12:07, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Предлагаю объявить на две недели мораторий

Предлагаю объявить на две недели ( до 15 ноября 2011) мораторий на обсуждение грузинско-армянского происхождения Тамары Shulyatikov (talk) 17:32, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

I suggest to declare the two-week moratorium

Suggest that we declare two weeks (until November 15, 2011) a moratorium on discussion of the Georgian-Armenian origin Tamara. Shulyatikov (talk) 08:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

If not longer. — Robert Greer (talk) 23:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

A moratorium has already been declared on simply reverting the article back and forth, by means of semi-protecting the article, but talk page discussion is the only way to move this forward, and the very reason that a Request for Comment was raised. Discussion is not a bad thing. --McGeddon (talk) 11:42, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

This particular discussion is utterly meaningless as it has nothing to do with her fame as a ballerina, the whole reason that Toumanova is listed in Wikipedia.

In the time that has been spent debating how many Georgian angels can dance on the head of a pin as opposed to how many Armenian angels can dance on the head of the same pin seven good ballet articles could have been begun.

I have never removed a ballet article from my watchlist but am doing so for the first — and I hope last — time. — Robert Greer (talk) 15:17, 6 November 2011 (UTC)

Princess Eugenie Toumanova

The Canberra Times Friday 19 September 1941 Page 4 (Австралия) SOVIET EXILES LOYAL. TORONTO, Wednesday-The premier ballerina Tamara Toumanova, daughter of Princess Eugenie Toumanova, in an| Interview with the Canadian Press, said: There is no bitterness or hate among Russian exiles. The fight is not for Stalin. It is a fight for Russia s freedom and Russia soul. We are Russians, side by side with all Russians in Russia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shulyatikov (talk • contribs) 08:53, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Georgian princess

Parents (Tamara Toumanova): a Tsarist colonel and a Georgian princess fleeing the Bolshviks. Examiner (Launceston, Tas.), Saturday 19 April 1952, page 12 [[28]] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shulyatikov (talk • contribs) 09:20, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Анкеты заполненые Тамарой Тумановой, родителями Евгенией и Владимиром.Не было фамилии ХАЗИДОВИЧ и Tumanishvili в документах Тамары и её роди...

Анкеты заполненые Тамарой Тумановой, родителями Евгенией и Владимиром ( Khassidovitch) можно посмотреть по адресам:

• http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?cj=1&srchb=r&gss=affiliate&rank=1&gl=allgs&gspl=1%2cAny+Locality&pcc=2&prox=1&gsln=Toumanova&o_xid=0001231454&o_lid=0001231454

• http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gl=ROOT_CATEGORY&rank=1&new=1&so=3&MSAV=0&msT=1&gss=ms_f-2_s&gsfn=Khassidovitch&gsln=Khassidovitch&uidh=000

'* Не было фамилии ХАЗИДОВИЧ и TUMANISHVILI в документах Тамары и её родителей. Во всех юридически значимых документах Тамара и её родители писали Khassidovitch и/или Toumanov(a) и одновременно указанием в анкетах одновременно двух фамилий. Это подтверждается множесвом имиграционных анкет и заявлений в официальные органы США, Канады, Австралии и др.Фамилия отца Тамары, мужа Евгении указывалась одна фамилия в основном Khassidovitch. Так писали Тамара, Евгения и Владимир в анкетах. Фамилия Владимира в России всегда была Хасидович. Khassidovitch, фамилия которую записал Владимир при выезде из России. В предыдущем разделе даются ссылки, которые каждый может посмотреть.Других вариантов написания фамилий в официальных, юридически значимых НЕТ Shulyatikov (talk) 19:51, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Khasidovitch was Eugenia's second husband, and it can be that she later converted to his last name, and then to many other last names as she married many more times. This, however, does not explain who Tamara's father is and what name she had at birth, so instead of this copy/paste work, I suggest you join us in research.--Andriabenia (talk) 19:53, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Khassidovitch-Toumanov(a)

• Khassidovitch - Toumanov(a) [[29]] Shulyatikov (talk) 02:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

How many time should I repeat that ancestry.com list that you provide does not prove Tamara's name at birth. It may, at most, be a clue as to what her name was at the time of naturalization or when she entered the United States. Is this really so difficult to understand?--Andriabenia (talk) 14:38, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Name at birth

Since ancestry.com search listing is not in any way a proof of Tamara's name at birth, I took out the birth name notion altogether. It should not be included unless there is a document or other reliable primary source that explicitly states it. I have also reverted the "references" to prove her Armenian origin because they did not support the proposed text, not to mention that all of them are rendered irrelevant given Tamara's own statement about her origins, which I included as the first reference.--Andriabenia (talk) 18:13, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

Sources supporting her alleged Armenian descent

• Do Google Books search results constitute encyclopedically reliable sources? [30] [31]
• Александр Васильев Волшебное зеркало воспоминаний: ЛЮДМИЛА ИЛЬИНИЧНА ЛОПАТО – no page given.

And, people, please, do not add edit summaries like "rv deletion of sourced info, georgian nationalist pov-pushing". That's just plain rude. Antique Rose — Drop me a line 14:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Google books is a collection of books, both reliable and unreliable. For Lopato, the page is [32]. Rast5 (talk) 16:52, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

What sources we have?

The suspected sockpuppet removed information about Toumanova's father Vladimir and added that "Georgian Princess Eugenia Tumanishvili, was fleeing Georgia in search of her husband, Konstantin Zakharov, a doctor of the Caucasian Military District". It is sourced (falsely) by Examiner's article, as you can check here [33]. Rast5 (talk) 17:12, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

It is not sourced falsely. The proper citation is ^ Arabesque: Georgian Ballet Magazine No 2 (15) 2010, p. 63, which is still there, but has a different citation number because of all the nonsense that you inserted in between.--Andriabenia (talk) 14:33, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Konstantin Zakharov

Konstantin Zakharov !? Shulyatikov (talk) 19:27, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Pardon me but this is not a free association session at your psychologist's office. You cannot throw puzzling statements like this here and there, especially that it took me a substantial amount of time to archive everything that you littered this page with in the past days.--Andriabenia (talk) 14:20, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Тамара Туманова настоящая фамилия в 1925 году-Хасидович

• Фото Тамары 1925 года с надписью на обороте [[34]]

Shulyatikov (talk) 20:20, 30 December 2019 (UTC)