Talk:Tantura massacre

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Article[edit]

Took the initiative to create the article, but it needs desperate improvement as I only copied the content from the Tantura article. Too much attention is given to the controversy in Israeli scholarship circles but barely any on the actual massacre, which was reported and documented by several Arab writers and historians decades earlier. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:50, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
User:Makeandtoss: We should mention Nimr al-Khatib, who (according to Pappé) was the first to record the massacre. And possibly other Arab authers that Pappe didn't know about? Huldra (talk) 23:23, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Haaretz[edit]

I will appreciate if someone can email the Haaretz news-article to me. I have never edited IPA topics and do not plan to; mere personal curiosity. TIA. TrangaBellam (talk) 05:22, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

User:TrangaBellam; you can read it here, cheers, Huldra (talk) 23:03, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

WikiProject assessments for quality and importance[edit]

I have downgraded this article from B-class to C-class quality because the article appears to be mostly about an academic debate and court case over whether the event occurred or not. There is no coverage to really back up the introductory statement in the lead section. Indeed, the lead section presents new information that is not even explained in the article. I expect this article to tell me about the event in the title; Who was involved, What happened, When the event happened, Where it happened, Why it happened, and How it happened. I do not expect just to find a controversy about academic freedoms over reporting whether the event happened or not, because that is really a different article and should be under a different title. Wikipedia is not censored and what should be told is what Katz and the survivors alleged happened, what the Alexandroni veterans said and denied in response and a balance of views from all sides involved. I know it is a tall ask but I would like to see contemporary citations from the 1950's including good citations of the original books and papers that Katz, Galat, and Nimr al-Khatib and others might have published at the time these events occurred, rather than just a re-examination of the evidence and the controversy from 50 years later. Perhaps even C-class is generous of me, and this article might only be a Start-class article, but this assessment level does allow the B-class questions to be asked and answered in relevant WikiProjects. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:38, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

incidence[edit]

See Talk:Tantura#Occurrence. nableezy - 17:34, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Morris[edit]

This article relies heavily on Benny Morris's analysis to support the claims of a massacre. In fact, Morris's position is the opposite of what the article says. His position is that the Tantura massacre is a hoax. Dan Censor's web site has all the relevant material. https://www.ee.bgu.ac.il/~censor/katz-directory/11-03-17the-liar-as-a-hero-about-pappe-by-benny-morris.pdf — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.234.50.77 (talk) 04:00, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 4 June 2022[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not Moved (non-admin closure) >>> Extorc.talk 06:35, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Tantura massacre → Tantura controversy – No massacre has been confirmed. The recent Tantura film is presented as 100% confirming that a massacre happened, even though many of the veterans interviewed actually denied that there was a massacre. Academic Yoav Gelber, who was interviewed in the movie, said that the film was flawed[1][2] None of the RS describe the film as "confirming" a massacre (nor does the film, which implies a massacre happened but never jumps to an explicit conclusion), meaning that such wording is WP:OR.

Please keep in mind that all of the article's content (except for the lede) is contained inside the "historiography" section, so "controversy" would probably be the better term.

I would also like to note that the exact figure of deaths is still controversial, which has been repeated again and again by RS.[3][4][5][6] Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 22:45, 4 June 2022 (UTC) Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 22:45, 4 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Kingsley, Patrick (2022-05-11). "Old Palestinian Wound Resurfaces at Israeli Resort". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2022-06-04.
  2. ^ "Sundance documentary 'Tantura' is a flawed look at 1948 controversy". The Jerusalem Post | JPost.com. Retrieved 2022-06-04.
  3. ^ "Sous la plage du lagon bleu, les « fantômes de Tantura »". L'Orient-Le Jour. 2022-01-26. Retrieved 2022-06-04.
  4. ^ Welle (www.dw.com), Deutsche. "Film Dokumenter Ungkap Pembantaian Warga Palestina oleh Israel | DW | 27.01.2022". DW.COM (in Indonesian). Retrieved 2022-06-04.
  5. ^ Kingsley, Patrick (2022-05-11). "Old Palestinian Wound Resurfaces at Israeli Resort". The New York Times. ISSN 0362-4331. Retrieved 2022-06-04.
  6. ^ Andrew Lapin. "Israeli film 'Tantura' prompts calls to excavate possible Palestinian mass grave". www.timesofisrael.com. Retrieved 2022-06-04.
Oppose. Every massacre is denied by someone. That is insufficient reason to change the title. You are correct that the number of victims is uncertain, but that's a different issue. Zerotalk 01:57, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Nonsensical argument, trying to defend the perpetrators. Dimadick (talk) 05:28, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not "trying to defend the perpetrators". Before this film came out Wikipedia portrayed what happened in Tantura as a matter of scholarly debate, and never explicitly said there was a massacre, just that some scholars argued there was while others didn't. Then a random movie was screened in January, and for some reason editors decided it was proof that there was a large-scale massacre (even though the film itself was criticized by scholars like Gelber). Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:53, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but it was a dodgy debate, with a sound academic paper quashed under threat of legal action. It's a poster child for academic freedom issues. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:56, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Benny Morris said in his interview with Ari Shavit:
There is no unequivocal proof of a large-scale massacre at Tantura, but war crimes were perpetrated there.[1]
Ih his review of Ilan Pappé, Efraim Karsh goes so far to call the massacre "Nonexistent".[2] (I know Meforum isn;t the best source and I really don't like it, but it's by Efraim Karsh, who is a well-known scholar).
For a criticism of Ilan Pappé's work on Tantura see: Ben-Artzi (2011). "Out of (Academic) Focus: On Ilan Pappe, Out of the Frame: The Struggle for Academic Freedom in Israel". Israel Studies. 16 (2): 165. doi:10.2979/israelstudies.16.2.165. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 14:22, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You can't take debate from before the published admissions as evidence after it. Zerotalk 14:54, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, it is unclear to me if Benny Morris has actually voiced an opinion on the matter subsequent to the most recent testimony, but I think not. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:09, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
In any case, even if were not a massacre, a move to 'controversy' would still be imprecise. It is still an evidenced site of ethnic cleansing. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:12, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose: Just seems like a shift from precision to vagueness. There is witness testimony of a massacre. The only real 'controversy' is over the extent of it. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:59, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You can't confirm an event using only oral testimony. Not a single RS said that the movie meant the massacre was confirmed. Even the film itself said that they weren't completely certain there was a massacre.[3] Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 13:43, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is a seriously weird tree to be barking up. POV issues aside, I bring you 460 Google Scholar hits to 329 and one crushing ngrams defeat. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:52, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Lots of historical massacres are confirmed only by oral testimony. Here we have not just eye-witnesses but admissions of perpetrators. Zerotalk 14:56, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above and hopefully a speedy close from an admin.★Trekker (talk) 11:36, 5 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per above, can someone please close this, pr WP:SNOW? Huldra (talk) 22:22, 7 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Date of thesis[edit]

Teddy Katz’s thesis was in 1998 not 1988. Shown in the documentary Tantura and quoted online. 24.138.73.66 (talk) 18:31, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Well spotted. Yep, that's fixed. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:24, 18 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Israeli Defense Forces were not yet formed at the time of this event[edit]

Hence it would not be correct to refer to the brigade as being part of the IDF. 136.26.73.214 (talk) 10:01, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ https://ethics.rabbinics.org/Interview%20with%20Benny%20Morris.pdf
  2. ^ Karsh, Efraim (2006-01-01). "Review of A History of Modern Palestine: One Land, Two Peoples". Middle East Quarterly.
  3. ^ "Sundance documentary 'Tantura' is a flawed look at 1948 controversy". The Jerusalem Post | JPost.com. Retrieved 2022-06-05.
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