Talk:The Beatles in India/GA1

GA Review[edit]

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Reviewer: SilkTork *^{Tea time} 09:28, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

Is it reasonably well written?
A. Prose quality:

B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:
Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
A. References to sources:

B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

C. No original research:
Is it broad in its coverage?
A. Major aspects:

B. Focused:
Is it neutral?
Fair representation without bias:
Is it stable?
No edit wars, etc:
Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
Overall:
Pass or Fail:

Article looks attractive, detailed, and interesting.
Prose appears clear and readable and should pass GA criteria, though I'm noticing some minor quibbles such as: "The group eventually arrived at the ashram" - why "eventually"? "the musicians wrote many songs which were later recorded on The Beatles" - did they write many songs, or is it that many of the songs were included on the album?

"eventually" deleted, and songs divided into the albums they were on.

The main image is non-free, yet is used twice. The second time is acceptable - I am not sure if the first use is. Be good to either replace the lead image or get confirmation from an image use specialist as to if it is acceptable to use it like that. When I click on the Meditation chambers at the old Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Ashram image I am taken to an article rather than the image details. This might be in contravention of the licence. Please check. And while we're on that image, the caption is very long. I haven't checked, but is the content in that caption repeating text in the main body? If not, then the text should be in the main body. If yes, then the caption can be trimmed back to simply identifying the image. See WP:Caption.

Image links fixed, and caption shortened.

The image of the Maharishi also goes to the article rather than the image details.

Fixed.

The article is wonderfully detailed, though I am wondering if it is too detailed in places. The Lennon and Harrison's departure section for example. There is a lot there, and I am wondering if in the desire to capture the minutia of the incident, the overall importance of what happened is being lost. We are being caught up in the drama of the packing and the taxis, and it is an enjoyable read, but are we getting the encyclopedic importance of that incident summarised for a general encyclopedia. It's a good read, but it feels like it belongs more properly in a book or magazine article. I am unsure about this, because as a Beatles fan I enjoyed reading it, but I wonder if it could be trimmed to the important details?

The "Lennon and Harrison's departure" section has been cut down.

"credited with changing attitudes in the West about Indian spirituality" could usefully be cited per WP:LEADCITE

Referenced in the lead, and used book title: American Veda: From Emerson and the Beatles to Yoga and Meditation How Indian Spirituality Has Shaped the West, in the article.

The article appears to provide broad coverage, though the Legacy section doesn't provide adequate details of the impact of the incident, as it doesn't seem to pick up on the "credited with changing attitudes in the West about Indian spirituality" comment in the lead. The Legacy section contains info on the ashram, and comments by members of the group on the Maharishi, rather than on summarising the importance of the event. See History_of_Transcendental_Meditation#1960s. I like that comment by Densmore: "There wouldn't be any Doors without Maharishi". The Beatles endorsement of Maharishi and TM had a significant impact. Some sources here.

The "Legacy" section has been rearranged.

Would be useful to mention Donovan and a few others in the lead. And, though this article is mainly about the Beatles, it would be appropriate to included Donovan's song in the song list.

Done.

I like this article a lot. I think it shouldn't take too much to get it to meet GA criteria. A little copy-editing, building the lead, trimming back a little here and there, and a refocus of the Legacy section. I'll put it on hold for an initial seven days for these matters to be discussed. In the meantime I will check the sources.SilkTork *^{Tea time} 10:29, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

GA discussion[edit]

That's a very helpful review.

I'll take it on myself to add cites and material on the legacy and "credited with changing attitudes in the West about Indian spirituality" issues. The Doors met the Maharishi before the Beatles, so they weren't an effect. However this interaction, despite its unhappy end, dramatically popularized TM and a number of people say so directly.
We can drop the first use of the photo.
They arrived "eventually" because they had to reschedule at least one, came late, and travelled in two groups which got there a day or two apart. We can clarify that.
Donovan was a significant influence on the event, so it's appropriate to add him to the lead.
One reason that the Harrison/Lennon departure and other parts may seem over-detailed is that there are so many differing accounts of the event, especially the departure and its reasons. It's the Rashomon effect. When sources appear to agree it's sometimes because the author has read the other account and used it to supplement their own memory or knowledge. I'm wondering if, instead of less detail, it'd be improved by doing a better job of splitting out the different versions. Something like, "According to A, xyz. According to B, zmj. According to C, yuv." Or another way of presenting the events in a more straightforward way, with fewer details and more interpretation.

I'm sure Andreasegde and I can address these issues in a week. Will Beback talk 18:10, 11 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

- (ec)Thanks for quick response. I'll be guided by you both as subject specialists regarding the importance of the Harrison/Lennon departure, though could you explain why it's the departure itself that you regard as important. It appears to me that the departure was the result of tensions within Rishikesh, and it is the tensions that appear important rather than the incident of the departure. I'd be certainly interested in hearing more about the tensions, but perhaps rather less of the actual departure. Does that make sense? Perhaps a renaming of the article to "Tensions" or "Disillusionment" might help focus the reader on what is happening? I am also unclear on the chronology of events. The 2nd paragraph has Lennon and Mardas confronting the Maharishi about Bonas. The 3rd paragraph has Mardas speaking to Lennon in the woods and also to the Maharishi about money issues. The 4th paragraph has them leaving "the next morning". I suspect that the 3rd paragraph should come before the 2nd one, though looking at Beatles-Discography.com it appears that Mardas has been speaking about the Bonas allegations for some days before the departure on the 12th, and it wasn't the Bonas incident but some unspecified other incident that prompted the departure. Did Lennon confront the Maharishi about Bonas before the 12th? What is it that Lennon is referring to with his cryptic comment "If you're so cosmic, you'll know why"? SilkTork *^{Tea time} 11:42, 12 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  - You're right: The split between Lennon and the Maharishi is what's important, though it led immediately to the hurried departure. We've re-organized the existing text and added a little to make the chronology and relative importance clearer.
  - The dates of events at the ashram are not as clear as some would like. I'm suspicious of some of the dates on the Beatles-Discography.com website, which may be over-precise. Several of the memoirists who were there note that their perceptions of time were vague while mediating many hours a day, or even that they lost track of days. Mardas is not entirely reliable since he has an obvious bias having been labeled by many as the villain in this matter, a role which he's denied.
  - We can only guess what Lennon meant by his reply to the Maharishi as they left. It's commonly repeated in accounts of the event, so it's worth keeping in the article. I think that more than anything it shows the feelings of contempt that Lennon had that day, the same day he wrote Sexy Sadie, considered by most to be a rebuke of the Maharishi. (Maybe we should include that connection).
  - I'll add a little more on the legacy issue to supplement the brief material we've added when I can find sources on that issue. (It's not easy to search on abstract concepts!) But, thanks largely to Andreasegde's hard work, I believe we've addressed most of the issues you've identified. Will Beback talk 21:13, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I like what is happening on the article, and feel that it is clearer. I paused for a moment on the Ringo quotes, as part of my previous hesitation was on the level of what could be seen as gossipy detail, though I think it can be argued that the quotes do reveal some aspects of the tension, and the way that individuals were responding. Also, I remember the Butlins quote at the time, and have seen it mentioned in articles, so it is notable and it is appropriate that it appears in the article. I'll take a closer look at the article in the next few days. Good work. Quick, responsive, and thorough. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 23:42, 14 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Great progress. Some sticking points:

- The Later departures section doesn't quite make sense now, as we are not told what "the matter is". Also, the article is still unclear on the sequence of events. In the Tensions section we have Lennon speaking to the Maharishi about the sexual misconduct allegations, to which the Maharishi supposedly says he is only human. Then in the Later departures section we have Lennon going to him again, presumably over the same sexual misconduct allegations, though this is not made clear, and this time Lennon doesn't say what the meeting is about.

- "Band members had already seen him on Granada TV years earlier." Is there a date for this?

- In the lead - "Their stay at the ashrams" - should this be singular?

I think this is a lucid and comprehensive article. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 20:52, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll work on the chronology further to see if can't make it flow better. One problem is that there were several tensions at the same time, so it's hard to arrange them both logically and chronologically. I'm not sure if we know when the first confrontation happened. It may have been that Lennon, et al., confronted the Maharishi, then Lennon, Harrison and Mardas sat up all night discussing it, then left that morning. Lennon makes it sound like the confrontation was after the all-night session. FYI, I posted an excerpt from a 1971 interview at Talk:The Beatles in Rishikesh#Parting comment.

Regarding the Granada appearance, McCartney said "We'd seen him years before..." Here Comes the Sun: The Spiritual and Musical Journey of George Harrison By Joshua M. Greene says Harrison saw the show when he was a boy (which seems unlikely, depending on the definition of "boy"), and specifies that it was on the People and Places show.[1] A tertiary source, That Magic Feeling: The Beatles' Recorded Legacy, Volume Two, 1966-1970, says it was sometime in the early 1960s.[2] In The Beatles Anthology, Harrison says "We'd seen Maharishi when we were kids. He was on the telly every few years on Granada's People and Places programme, the local current affaris show. We'd all say, 'Hey, did you see that crazy guy last night?' so we all knew about him: he was the giggly little guy going around the globe seven times to heal the world (and this was his third spin)." Since the Maharishi first visited London in 1959 or 1960, and if Harrison turned 25 in 1968, then they might have seen him when they were in their middle to late teens. I'll keep trying to pin down a specific year, but I doubt we can do better than "years earlier".

Oops, yes, just one ashram. Will Beback talk 21:25, 17 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You'd need a date for FA, but not for GA. I saw it when copy-editing and if I'd got to the end and all was fine, I would have listed the article, with just a mention to pin down the date if you could. That's something to work on, but is not going to prevent a GA listing. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 00:25, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I hope that date won't prevent an FA - it may be lost to time. ;) We might end up deleting it if it's too much of a problem. It's a small detail. There are sources for the more general concept that the Maharishi was already well-known in the UK.

Well, somebody will mention WP:DATED, but it shouldn't be a deal breaker. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 11:12, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm digging out my stack of sources so I can review the departure timeline. I'll work on it tonight and tomorrow. Will Beback talk 00:32, 18 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I re-read the 15 or so sources which seemed to have the most detail about this topic. It's amazing how many different versions there are. A book from 2005 says, "Many details of the events that led to the Beatles leaving so suddenly are still very uncertain." Indeed. Nonetheless, I think I've figured out the sequence of some of the major events regarding the departure.

Farrow leaves, after telling folks that the Maharishi had made a pass at her.
Mardas arrives (perhaps before Farrow left), and immediately starts questioning things
Mardas and Lennon discuss finances (probably on and off for the rest of the stay).
The "American woman" sometimes identified as RB or later as Bonas, tells folks that she is getting chicken and sex from the Maharishi.
Mardas confonts the Maharishi about sex and maybe finances also
Meanwhile, the Four Star film crew and Charles Lutes arrive to start their film
Mardas spies on the woman and the Maharishi getting physical
He goes to Lennon and Harrison and the three discuss it until Lennon decides they should leave
The next morning Mardas gets taxis
That morning Lennon tells the Maharishi that they're leaving. He makes the "If you're so cosmic you'd know why" accusation. The lack of answer (and facial expression) confirms his decision to leave.
They finish packing.
On their way out the Maharishi stands nearby, asking them to stay and talk to him.
While packing or in the taxi Lennon composes "Sexy Sadie"
The Harrisons travel separately, and the Lennons get stuck, having to hitchike to Delhi.

However I'm not confident enough in that sequence to present it to readers as such. I've left the separation between the "Tensions" section, which is arranged more or less thematically, and the "Later departures" section, which is in sequential order. Nonetheless I think it conveys the material more accurately and clearly. During all of that reviewing of sources I came across a bunch of relevant details and small corrections. Hopefully the article isn't overburdened with details. Will Beback talk 08:57, 19 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Looking to close[edit]

I'm looking to close, and just reading through. Remaining quibbles:

"Mardas ... was a disruptive influence" - can we get a direct inline cite for that as it's a strong statement, or remove it and allow what follows to speak for itself. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 10:37, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
- I've removed that statement in order to list this as a GA. If you get a source, the statement can be put back.

I'm much impressed with the content of this article and the way it is structured. There are areas where the prose can be tidied up in order to push this for FA, and it would be worth getting a peer review and a decent copy edit from the Guild before going to FAC. I'm sure different people will have different views on the organisation and presentation of the facts surrounding the tension, but you have certainly got an informative and well sourced base on which to work. Good stuff - well done. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 11:01, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good points. The article has improved greatly in the last month and there's still plenty to do. Copy-editing is needed, for sure. There are more details to add (and perhaps some to remove). Thanks for your feedback and for reading the article repeatedly. Will Beback talk 12:37, 20 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]