Talk:The End (comics)

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Category instead of it's own page?

This page is nothing but a list of themed titles, and most all of them have their own entries. It has no sources, and I don't see where any could be applied. Since this is already basically the same content as the catergory page, I think it should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Argento Surfer (talk • contribs) 15:16, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Connecting The End to other series

I and others have reverted a user who has repeatedly (1, 2, 3) added material that, according to them, "have...been other similar miniseries released by Marvel that follow "The End" formula but don't carry the title." The edits are also accompanied by references to the comic books themsellves.
Unfortunately, this is not the sort of referencing that we mean. In order to add the bold statement that other Marvel comics mini-series have follwed the "pattern" of The End, you need to also add references from reliable sources that make that comparison. We as editors cannot make that comparison, because we cannot cite our own beliefs, observations or deductions. Doing so becomes something that we call Original Research; we don't allow that.
So, if you find reliable sources (blogs, youtube videos, fan forums or most wikia collections are NOT considered reliable sources - think review articles by staff writers), then we can add the material back in. Until then, we cannot add it.
On a side note, you have reached your third revert of the day; one more and someone would report you to the edit-warring noticeboard, where you risk being blocked from editing. I don;t want to see that happen. I think your edits are being made in good faith, so head out and look for references like I've noted above. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 04:28, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm fairly certain the Daredevil: End of Days mini was supposed to be part of The End line, but it was delayed for some reason. I'm also unsure why, when adding all the "similar" material, the Marvel Universe and Spider-Girl books, which are actually part of the line, are being removed. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:26, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

All I am saying is that they risk removal if they aren't cited. I f I can challenge it (being a comic book nerd) then other readers could as well. Anything challenge-able must be verified, as per WP:V. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 18:02, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

Marvel Universe and Spider-Girl are not part of the line. Marvel Universe was not even in a alternate future. It happens on 616. Everything dies but then reverted back in the end. It was the end of the Infinity Saga by Jim Starlin (at least until Infinity Revelation was published). And the Spider-Girl one is not her last story like all other books in the line. It is set in the present time of the MC2 Universe and is in fact the end of the MC2 and Spider-Girl in a publishing view. It is just the end of her title. Mayday did not die nor end her duty as Spider-Girl since she appears on Spider-Verse following these events. Like the article says: "They follow possible endings for various Marvel characters, as they are set in the future."; therefore, none of the above are part of the line. Just to have "the end" in the title do not make them part of the line since they do not carry the formula of it. HÊÚL. (talk) 14:24, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

I have no horse in this race. If there is going to be an entrant, they have to be citably connected to the series. This means a source saying Daredevil: End of Days is connected the Marvel's The End series, not a source for the comic. We need to have a reliable source that connects the two. It cannot be our observation. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:19, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

If you look at the note section of Marvel: The End, you'll see (a poor) source showing Marvel's Executive Editor Tom Brevoort including it as part of the line. I'm still searching for better ones, but "The end" is a very poor search term. Argento Surfer (talk) 15:27, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Look at it this way: if you are having trouble finding sources for it, consider that sources do not make the connection, and its just us comic nerds trying to codify a fictional universe that gets redone every single time a writer gets a brain fart or a wild hair up their bottom about how to 'switch things up'. You don't need to see hoofprints and go looking for zebras. Often, those prints are just from horses. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 15:32, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Argento Surfer, I know that Brevoort said that, but: 1) he (or Marvel) never did it officially in any source; 2) Thanos #1 and Infinity Revelation reffered it as canonical. HÊÚL. (talk) 16:51, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Then there should be reliably-sourced talk about that. If we cannot source it, we cannot include it, no matter how obvious it may seem to us WE cannot cite ourselves as a source. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 17:37, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

The sources exist, they're just hard to find on the web - "Marvel The end" turns up lots of false positives. Right now, I'm hunting through old solicitations hoping to find something more definitive. Argento Surfer (talk) 19:58, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Just read Thanos #1 and Infinity Revelation and you will have your sources. Infinity Revelation was published 11 years after The End and refers to it prominently. HÊÚL. (talk) 02:33, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Let me try to explain this using a number of very simple questions:

• first: who has read Thanos #1 and Infinity Revelation?

Answer: you.

• second: who also read The End series?

Answer: you.

• third: who is finding a connection between the End and other series?

Answer: you.

• fourth: does any other reviewer or reliable source make that connection?

Answer: no.

• fifth: can we use your knowledge and observation as a source that they are connected?

Answer: no, because editors cannot cite themselves.

We need a source - a reviewer, a news article, etc - to connect them. You observing a connection/similarity/ a girl in a red dress/whatever isn't enough. Doing so is a type of original research called synthesis. I hope this explains matters clearly. Have a great one. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 05:03, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

It is not just me. The source used on the The End article says it too: "So despite everyone else believing The End was canon and even Jim Starlin himself saying it was and it being referred to in THANOS #1, you stuck to your guns and said it wasn't ever canon. So, care to explain how it still "isn't" canon after INFINITY REVELATION again refers to it quite prominently?". HÊÚL. (talk) 05:30, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm aware later books reference the events. What I'm not aware of is a source saying that only events that are never referenced outside of themselves can be included under The End banner. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:23, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

If they are possible endings set in alternate futures how could they be referenced anywhere? HÊÚL. (talk) 23:17, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Do you have a source saying they're only possible endings? Technically, the universe did end in Marvel Universe: The End.

The root of our disagreement seems to be whether this line is classified by "The End" being part of the title, or the themes located therein. Argento Surfer (talk) 13:25, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Even if it was the case the Spider-Girl one did not end anything. So…? HÊÚL. (talk) 15:47, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

It has the same banner indicating it's inclusion.

My search for sources has been pretty bare bones - at this point I'm not even sure the line is independently notable. Argento Surfer (talk) 17:43, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

Not to sound like a broekn record, but no reference, no inclusion. - Jack Sebastian (talk) 18:55, 17 November 2016 (UTC)

What I mean is, I can find sources talking about the individual series, but I haven't found one that discusses the line as a whole. I'm starting to doubt the article subject itself is notable. Argento Surfer (talk) 21:49, 17 November 2016 (UTC)