Talk:The Marvels

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Do we need so much pushback back against Iger's comment?[edit]

Disney CEO Bob Iger also attributed the film's failure to the large amount of MCU content that Disney had produced for its streaming service, but he added that insufficient day-to-day supervision by Disney executives during production was partially to blame as well. Multiple commentators took issue with this statement, with some pointing out that Marvel is known for having a lot of executive oversight on all of their projects. Others felt Iger was wrongfully putting all of the blame on DaCosta, and noted several instances where DaCosta had appeared to be unfairly targeted by Disney before Iger's comments. Gizmodo's James Whitbrook said the studio's "increasingly public critiques of DaCosta are just starting to feel weird", and he noted that The Marvels was not Disney's only 2023 film to fail at the box office.

Can we trim it down to Disney CEO Bob Iger also attributed the film's failure to the large amount of MCU content that Disney had produced for its streaming service, but he added that insufficient day-to-day supervision by Disney executives during production was partially to blame as well. Some commentators felt Iger was wrongfully putting all of the blame on DaCosta, noting that The Marvels was not Disney's only 2023 film to fail at the box office.

It removes "with some pointing out that Marvel is known for having a lot of executive oversight on all of their projects" which is irrelevant given the Iger's comment is that there wasn't enough oversight this time.

It removes "noted several instances where DaCosta had appeared to be unfairly targeted by Disney before Iger's comments" since this is only sourced as an opinion from James Whitbrook.

It removes "James Whitbrook said the studio's "increasingly public critiques of DaCosta are just starting to feel weird"" since this reads like a teenager writing, and again is just from Whitbrook. Tikaboo (talk) 19:27, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The first bit you want to remove is very relevant, as it contradicts his point. The next bit you want to remove is a set of facts, not an opinion, which give important context to the comments. The last bit is just an opinion, but I don't think it is inappropriate to finish the paragraph with a direct response to Iger's comment. We could replace it with a different, similar opinion but I personally don't see the need for that. - adamstom97 (talk) 21:56, 3 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
For the first bit, Iger said there wasn't the usual executive oversight because of Covid, and then we're saying they're known for having a lot of oversight on their projects. I'm not understanding the contradiction. As for the second bit, it's not a fact that she's been unfairly targeted, or even "targeted" at all. Some things happened that were commented upon, calling it an unfair targetting of the director is an opinion from Whitbrook. For the third bit, why do we need to replace it at all? Is it really necessary to have three sentences attacking Iger? Two of which are just from the rando Whitbrook. Tikaboo (talk) 02:07, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I do not see enough justification for removing relevant commentary. Commentary and perspectives from these sites and figures such as Whitbrook help make up the backbone of sections for our readers so they are provided with detailed discussion and analysis of the cited material, rather than only just including the facts or statements from officially involved persons. Outside perspectives from commentators enhance the articles, not detract. Trailblazer101 (talk) 02:11, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with adamstom97 that there's an appropriate amount of detail & industry response on Iger's comment. Whitbrook isn't some rando - he's the Deputy Editor of io9/Gizmodo so including his commentary makes sense in a Reception section. As Trailblazer101 pointed out, this type of commentary is pretty standard in such sections (see also the spectrum of views included in the critical response subsection). Sariel Xilo (talk) 03:02, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I did include outside perspectives in my proposal "Some commentators felt Iger was wrongfully putting all of the blame on DaCosta, noting that The Marvels was not Disney's only 2023 film to fail at the box office."
For the three things I proposed to remove, can someone explain why the first one shouldn't be removed? Iger said there wasn't the usual executive oversight because of Covid, and then we're saying they're known for having a lot of oversight on their projects. There's no actual contradiction there. I've read the sources for this statement and it doesn't fit either so seems like a wiki editor made a mistake trying to include their responses to the oversight comment.
For the second one "and noted several instances where DaCosta had appeared to be unfairly targeted by Disney before Iger's comments" We should specifically attribute this to Whitbrook's opinion if it's kept in. And I think there are other good reasons for not including it at all. His first example of Disney unfairly targeting the director is from this: https://variety.com/2023/film/features/marvel-jonathan-majors-problem-the-marvels-reshoots-kang-1235774940/ but we don't know if it's from Disney, Variety only says it's from a source "familiar with the production".
If we do include his "unfairly targeted" allegation then I don't think it's good enough to leave what those are unsaid. This is his example: "DaCosta began working on another film while “The Marvels” was still in postproduction — the filmmaker moved to London earlier this year to begin prepping for her Tessa Thompson drama “Hedda.” (A representative for DaCosta declined to comment.) “If you’re directing a $250 million movie, it’s kind of weird for the director to leave with a few months to go,” says a source familiar with the production." To be honest I'm surprised this isn't in the article anyway.
The other example is the director missing the premiere for her birthday https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/movies/movie-news/why-marvels-director-nia-dacosta-missed-cast-crew-screening-1235648288/ which is sourced to "according to miffed Marvel staffers grumbling at the Nov. 8 screening," which again is a stretch to attribute it to Disney, given their description as "Marvel staffers". Could be any low level person.
The third one: "James Whitbrook said the studio's "increasingly public critiques of DaCosta are just starting to feel weird" well again, other than sounding like high schooler, it's just unnecessary, and as we've seen his evidence for Disney doing these public critiques is just guesses. Tikaboo (talk) 05:12, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Does Deadline's listing of The Marvels as a "bomb" justify that classification?[edit]

The earlier section seems to be closed, but with Deadline's article here: https://deadline.com/2024/05/biggest-box-office-bombs-2023-lowest-grossing-movies-1235902825/

I wonder how the conversation evolves? It's listed as the #1 among a list cataloguing the biggest box-office bombs of 2023, which should dissolve any issues with ambiguous language. Deadline is, to my understanding, considered a very reputable source for Hollywood financials. From a numeric standpoint the numbers that Deadline is postulating would position The Marvels as the biggest box-office bomb of all time according to the statistics in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_biggest_box-office_bombs#Biggest_box-office_bombs

Any reasonable reading of this source- in conjunction with the existing sources in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Marvels#cite_note-Bomb-125 - would result in concluding that The Marvels is classified as a box-office bomb. Even more so with the readily available stats that the page itself already cites.

Feel free to delete or close this thread if this is redundant or misplaced. Skimming through the discussions honestly left me more confused on where to ask this question than I was before. Basilosaur (talk) 01:43, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The reason for the confusion is that many users have tried to use the film's financial performance to win culture war arguments, accusing Wikipedia of having a political agenda. There's a reason we've waited a while to confirm these numbers. I'm not opposed to adding it myself, though we should hear from other users first before adding it. Harryhenry1 (talk) 07:19, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
While the new source doesn't actually use the term "box office bomb", it does say "bomb" and breaks down how much money the film lost. Consensus of the original discussion was to wait until we have better sources with a more holistic view of the film's financial performance before adding "box office bomb" to the lead, I think this new source satisfies that so I would support the change. - adamstom97 (talk) 07:30, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Is it just me that's confused about how Deadline's "P&L" is constructed? The "theatrical" revenue of $88m doesn't match any of the figures given for "box office" or their total. Then the revenue section includes home entertainment, TV and streaming (is this even knowable?) - so they're using a slightly unconventional definition of "bomb" - we usually hear "box office bomb", meaning a film that is unprofitable or considered highly unsuccessful during its theatrical run. They use the widely reported $270m production cost figure, which is a rounding of the more accurate $274.8m, but they don't round other figures in the table, which makes it look like they based that figure off a 5-second Google search. Then they go into detail in the expenses section with "Interest and overhead" but neglect to mention the $50m+ tax relief anywhere in the table. The source they cite is "Deadline Estimates".
I'm not getting the impression that this is a terribly reliable source on the matter. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 07:59, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
They clearly state that these are estimates, it is not meant to be precisely accurate. Only Disney could report that. It is enough for us to give our readers an idea of how much money the film lost, based on calculations made by a reliable source. Not all box office amounts become theatrical revenue for the studio, for instance the cinemas take a cut. The fact that home entertainment and streaming is included doesn't really have an impact on the "box office bomb" decision, if we ignore those values it just makes the film even more of a bomb during the theatrical run. - adamstom97 (talk) 08:50, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The $88 million will be the gross rental i.e. the studio's share of the box-office, which is typically half the box office. Given that the box-office was weighted towards overseas (which is typically a lower share around 40%) then $88 million looks reasonable to me. If anything that television and streaming revenue looks a tad generous to me, so I suspect the loss figure is a lower-bound estimate. Betty Logan (talk) 14:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Deadline is definitely an accurate source Rov124 (talk) 15:40, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Based on Deadline's calculations and use of the term "bomb", I support implementing the changes now that we have another reputable source backing things up with more facts and evidence. Trailblazer101 (talk) 15:48, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This page definitely needs to include the loss estimate in the lead with the budget and box office earnings. As well as link to the biggest box office bomb page which is standard for pages of films on that list Holydiver82 (talk) 15:49, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That kind of information is not typically included in the lead and best reserved for the dedicated box office section where all of that information is discussed in adequate detail, rather than bloating the lead with more information than is necessary there. We would need another source to call it "the biggest box-office bomb" as you have called it, which Deadline's does not support, though linking to that list article of biggest box-office bombs shouldn't be an issue. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:00, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is fairly typical to include some variation of "is one of the biggest box office bombs [of all time]" in the lead of the article with a link to the List of biggest box-office bombs when the movie lists high there, along with a loss estimate. Here's a few examples:
  • Strange World: "The film received generally positive reviews from critics but grossed only $73.6 million with a projected loss of $197 million for Disney, making it one of the biggest box-office bombs of all time."
  • Mortal Engines: "It is one of the biggest box office bombs of all time, grossing $83.7 million against a production budget of $100–150 million and losing the studio an estimated $175 million."
  • John Carter: "It grossed $284 million at the worldwide box office, resulting in a $200 million writedown for Disney, becoming one of the biggest box office bombs in history."
  • The Lone Ranger: "...making it one of the biggest box-office bombs of all time, losing Disney over $160–190 million."
  • Mars Needs Moms: "It grossed $39.2 million worldwide on a $150 million budget, becoming one of the biggest box-office bombs of all time, losing an estimated $100–144 million for Disney."
Admittedly, multiple others do not specifically use the words "box office bomb", but including the loss estimate is normal even for those. Auzewasright (talk) 18:12, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed it is standard practice to include in the lead the film's status on the 100 box office bomb list. And comes off rather odd to not call it a bomb when it's at the number 1 biggest bomb on the list of 100 biggest bombs Holydiver82 (talk) 19:09, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also clicked though the top 10 losses and all but Turning Red, a Covid victim first and foremost, use much more leaded language in the lead in regarding the films failures. If The Flash, a comparable 2023 failed in the same genre is a "bomb", the so is this.
Will the film be as costly a loss as John Carter despite now leading the list? That´s far too early to tell but the way this article is worded rn suggests that breaking even is possible after the theatrical run and we now have 237 million reasons it won´t be. That might be more than the film cost... 2A00:1F:8701:DF01:CC3C:D04:2F16:7F77 (talk) 21:25, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The marvels has always been an outlier when it comes to how poorly it did at the box office. How it is worded, where the information is, source requirements..etc ... but this latest source is making it extremely difficult to not have this article call it a bomb and link to the list showing that it is the top bomb of all time Holydiver82 (talk) 21:52, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just because WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS does not mean that there is a general consensus for it to be done on all other film articles. That is why this is being discussed is to determine how best to present the information for this article. What we can say in the lead is a summary of what is already included in the box office section, something along the lines of "The film was a box-office bomb, grossing $206 million worldwide against a gross production budget of $274.8 million, making it the lowest-grossing film in the MCU and one of the few MCU films not to break even in its theatrical run." Per other comments in this section, the Deadline calculations are just that, estimated calculations. Those are not the exact loss figures to a tee, so I do not believe we should prop them up in the lead as definitively 100% solid given they are only well-placed estimates. Noting it was a bomb covers that it lost money. I still think we should leave it to the Box office section to adequately explain all the figures in full, as to not overload the lead with more information that most general readers may not necessarily be looking for. Trailblazer101 (talk) 22:53, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with all of your thoughts here Trail. - adamstom97 (talk) 13:04, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I likewise agree with all of Trailblazer101's proposals throughout this comment section. Basilosaur (talk) 17:31, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Per the emerging consensus here, I have WP:BOLDly gone ahead and updated the wording to reflect the current sources and provided a seamless flow for the information in the Box office section. Hopefully this puts any concerns to rest. Trailblazer101 (talk) 20:40, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment – The Deadline source is counting the production cost as $270 million, but we know from the Carolyn Reid source that Disney received a $55 million subsidy credit from the UK government, bringing the total production cost down from $274.8 million to $219.8 million. So the true loss is really closer to $187 million. For whatever reason, this was not factored into Deadline's analysis.
    As for calling it a "bomb", I would not be opposed to it at this point if framed correctly. The statement in the article should say something along the lines of "considered a box-office bomb" and be cited by at least 2-3 highly reputable sources, including this recent one from Deadline. --GoneIn60 (talk) 16:27, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I agree with the updated language suggested by GoneIn60 ("The film is considered a box-office bomb" instead of the current "Some publications have labeled the film the first box-office bomb"). We should keep the Deadline numbers in the box office section but I don't think the lead needs to get bogged down by the specifics. Sariel Xilo (talk) 16:54, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    This. The movie did lose a ton of money; that's indisputable. Deadline's neglect of the subsidy (which is also indisputable), however, sticks out as peculiar & hurts the credibility of what would otherwise be considered a reliable source, & as HarryHenry1 pointed out above, there's a political motive behind manipulated interpretation of the film's performance. CaptHayfever (talk) 18:10, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Indeed there is a clearly politically motivated interpretation of the film's Absolutely terrible performance. This talk page is probably the best example of that since people are still trying to manipulate reality even in the face of this clear reliable sourced information on its performance. Will be interested to see if the truth and reality finally wins over manipulation Holydiver82 (talk) 19:07, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Aren't the indisputable facts you mentioned already grounds for the classification to apply? Even with the $55 million subsidy taken into account, it would still have topped the chart of box-office bombs by over $30 million, and it would still rank among the top box-office bombs of all time as listed in Wikipedia.
    IMO, the lead-in should, as Auzewasright has pointed out, classify The Marvels as a box-office bomb. That's seems like an obvious classification at this point and would adhere to the language used for the other films evaluated by Deadline (such as The Flash and Indiana Jones and the Dial of Destiny- #2 and #3 respectively). However, in the box-office section where the actual numeric losses are reported, it would make sense to highlight the fact that Deadline didn't factor in the subsidy to highlight how their actual calculations may have some issues. Basilosaur (talk) 19:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It also didn't include the millions of extra cost for the multiple delay and reshoots. So it's the best estimate we have from reliable sources but probably missing additional costs as well as tax credits Holydiver82 (talk) 19:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    With the addition of the Deadline source, I no longer think we need to be cagey with the wording in the Box office section, either, and think we can simplify it to just calling it a bomb upfront. I would propose: "The film was a box-office bomb, and is considered the first bomb of the MCU franchise." Trailblazer101 (talk) 22:56, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Incredible Hulk was a the first MCU box office bomb but yes this is also clearly a bomb and not an underperformance. Rationalistno13 (talk) 05:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The Incredible Hulk was not a box office bomb. See that film's article for detail on its box office performance. - adamstom97 (talk) 13:05, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That production cost is only up to September of 2022. There was a lot post production costs past then. Kilus (talk) 08:40, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 3 May 2024[edit]

This section “The film underperformed at the box-office, grossing $206 million worldwide against a gross production budget of $274.8 million, making it the lowest-grossing film in the MCU and one of the few MCU films not to break even in its theatrical run.” of the page is incorrect and needs to be updated for accuracy. Please see the source here for the correct information: https://deadline.com/2024/05/biggest-box-office-bombs-2023-lowest-grossing-movies-1235902825/

The most was the biggest bomb in box office history, surpassing John Carter and saying it “underperformed” is wildly immaculate. 2601:483:802:C690:2026:8A92:4B93:D60C (talk) 06:58, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: The changes you wanted for that line weren't specified, and the claim that it was bigger than John Carter in terms of being the biggest bomb in film history aren't reflected in the source. That source is also already being discussed on this talk page. --Harryhenry1 (talk) 07:11, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To add on, the Box office section of the article notes that Some publications have labeled the film the first box-office bomb of the MCU franchise, with Deadline Hollywood calculating the net losses of the film to be $237 million, when factoring together all expenses and revenues. Jolly1253 (talk) 07:17, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Other 2023 films like The Flash and Indiana Jones have "the film became a box office bomb" in the header of the article, The Marvels has "the film underperformed at the box office", I think it should be changed, regardless of what it says in the Box Office section. Rov124 (talk) 16:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is currently being discussed in the section right above this. These changes can't just be vetted through an edit request like this. That's a misuse of procedure. Trailblazer101 (talk) 16:16, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Connected Tv shows[edit]

The movie is a continuation of Wanda vision and secret invasion and not Just the Ms Marvel Tv show so please add

it is the sequel to the film Captain Marvel (2019), a continuation of the television miniseries Wanda vision 2021, Ms. Marvel (2022), Secret invasion 2023

Rationalistno13 (talk) 03:06, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As the MCU is a multimedia franchise in which many characters and works connect with one another, we are not going to highlight every project that has one character appear from another one, as in the case of WandaVision. The film's connections to SI seem almost absent than what had been originally expected, hence why that is not in the lead. Ms. Marvel's connections are the only main one that ought to be highlighted in the lead. Trailblazer101 (talk) 03:13, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
i can sort of understand Secret invasion but WandaVision
but it is heavily connected to Wanda vision. Adult Monica's debut, her relationship with Carol, her getting powers and the Skrulls asking her to go to saber station is in Wanda vision. Monica is as much a lead in the movie as Kamala
If Ms Marvel is connected so is Wandavision Rationalistno13 (talk) 05:10, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The Marvels is effectively season 2 of Ms Marvel, that is why that show is listed in the lead along with Captain Marvel. The same thing can be said for Captain America: Brave New World effectively being season 2 of The Falcon and the Winter Soldier, which is why that series is mentioned in the lead for that film. The Marvels is in no way a season 2 of WandaVision or Secret Invasion, so those are not included here. As Trailblazer pointed out, characters and plot lines are often continued in other MCU properties but are not treated as sequels or next seasons. - adamstom97 (talk) 13:03, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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