Talk:The Rain Song/Archive 1

Archive 1

Unreferenced and inaccurate

There are trillions of songs that have a major chord followed by a maj7th chord. No surprises here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.158.184.117 (talk) 11:57, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

"Harrison told Page that he had a great band (Led Zeppelin), but they didn't write enough ballads. As a tribute to Harrison, the first two notes of The Rain Song are the same as Harrison's "Something". "

First of all the the first two notes of this song are part of a slowly strummed/downward arpeggio singl chord. Perhaps this should be chords not notes. As I don't have access to a guitar at the moment I couldn't even tell you what they are as the song is played in an alternative turning to "normal" ie E A D G B E

Also, needs referencing. In fact, it needs rewriting as it has speculation and PoV. maybe I will visit it soon 8) Candy 13:44, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

I Believe the tuning to the song is E A D A D E however I will not change the page unless someone proves me correct - Phöénix 00:16, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

The tuning used is D G C G C D 67.110.231.105 22:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

"Something" needs to go!

"Although there is no proof, it has been said that Jimmy Page was inspired to write the song after a meeting with George Harrison. Harrison told Page that he had a great band (Led Zeppelin), but they didn't write enough ballads. As a tribute to Harrison, the first two notes of "The Rain Song" are the same as Harrison's "Something""

So, as there is no "proof" ie reference it is now being deleted by me. It doesn't make sense anyway - the first two notes come from an arpeggio.

Candy 12:40, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

I see the part about Harrison is back. Please take this to discussion before reverting again. The source cited has NO SOURCES and one part (the bit about the chords being the same as Harrison's Something is a READER CONTRIBUTION - again unsourced). It's going again. Candy 18:08, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Here's a reference: http://www.rollingstone.com/artists/ledzeppelin/albums/album/120527/review/5940338/houses_of_the_holy

It is a review from Rolling Stone magazine, not just some random blog entry. Also note that Harrison was talking to Bonham, not Page. --Kainaw ^(talk) 19:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The similarity between The Rain Song and Something is the chord progression - both songs begin with the following chord progression: Major / Major 7th / Dominant 7th / 4th 67.110.231.105 22:25, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reference. I see though that the explanation in Rolling stone needs careful thought before being added to this article. If you read closely it says the "first two notes" not chords. As the Rain Song is slowly strummed (down from high to low) it is unclear if it means the first two notes of the first chord or the top note of the first two chords.

I would suggest something brief which doesn't include anything about notes or chords but only mentions the meeting and response. The reader then can make their own interpretation of the less than clear source material. Candy 07:18, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Led Zeppelin - The Rain Song.ogg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:37, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

"Genre"

Who listed the genre as hard rock? Did they ever actually listen to the song? I'm not sure what genre to call it, but it certainly isn't hard rock. User:Bernsteinp 7:44, 20 Januray 2008

Maybe Psychedelic rock? ----SpeedKing (talk) 18:49, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I agree, VERY few instances of hard rock in here, I'd say folk rock. I don't really agree with psychedelic rock because, although it is pretty dreamy and spacey, it just doesn't really have a psychedelic feel, at least in my opinion. Cheezer Rox (talk) 22:23, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Right quotation, wrong song

The quotation is correct but the song is wrong: the first two notes (A, C) from Something have been used by Page in [1]Stairway to Heaven.

Fpasello (talk) 13:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi Fpasello! Could you be a bit more specific whereyou think this has been used in Stairway please? --Candy (talk) 10:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I was finally able to find the original reference for the quotation: the book "The Electric Guitar - An Illustrated History" by Paul Trynka (Chronicle Books); see chapter "The '70s". «According to Page, some time in 1970 Led Zeppelin drummer John Bonham was talking to George Harrison 'and he said "The problem with your band is that you don't do ballads". So I purposely stuck the first two notes of 'Something' on this song [Stairway to heaven]'.»

Fpasello (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:00, 19 March 2009 (UTC).

The reference to The Rain Song has already been established with The Rolling Stone magazine review[2]. MegX (talk) 06:27, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Fpasello (talk)Yes, but as already discussed on this page, musically it doesn't make any sense. If somebody could find the "Led Zeppelin: Heaven and Hell" book by Cross, Flannigan & Preston (Sidgwick & Jackson, 1991), the source quoted in the reference, this might help. —Preceding undated comment added 14:31, 28 March 2009 (UTC).

Dsus2?

I know that the studio tuning DGCGCD is called "Dsus2", but for it to be Dsus2, it needs the notes D, E, and A. The "E" defines whether it is a sus2, and there is clearly no "E" in the tuning. If anything, Csus2 contains C, D, and G. All of these are in this tuning, so shouldn't it be Csus2/D? It is Csus2 with a "D" in the bass, and so live is Dsus2/E.—SPESH531Other 18:35, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit war over cited content

The recent war over In tribute to Harrison, the opening two notes are recognisably used from the first line of his ballad "Something" with the Beatles. which is referenced by an article already used for reference needs to be resolved by discussion.

Wikipedia's policies are numerous and open to interpretation, so let's stick with the basics:

1. Content should be verifiable

• Unreferenced content may be removed, but requesting references is prefered

1. No single editor is right or owns the content

• Content is decided by implied or explicit consensus

I think this cited content should be included; it's no more trivial or less notable that anything else referencing the same source. Personally I find the tidbit interesting, and am glad an editor brought it to my attention.

So here's the crux of the matter: No one editor has the final say in what content is featured in any article. The fact is that at least two editors (myself included) feel that this content should be included, and without reasoned discussion leading to an agreement to not include it, I will re-add it myself. fredgandt 20:43, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Against inclusion per: WP:TRIVIA. Mlpearc (open channel) 20:56, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

For inclusion per WP:TRIVIA. "This page in a nutshell: Sections with lists of miscellaneous information (such as "trivia" sections) should be avoided as an article develops. Such information is better presented in an organized way." fredgandt 21:27, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Comment – Three sources don't exactly agree on the intro.

From Light and Shade: Conversations with Jimmy Page, Brad Tolinski (2012), eBook[3]:

George [Harrison] was talking to Bonzo one evening and said, 'The problem with you guys is that you never do ballads.' I said, 'I'll give him a ballad,' and I wrote 'Rain Song,' which appears on House of the Holy. In fact, you'll notice I even quote 'Something' in the song's first two chords.

From Jimmy Page: Magus, Musician, Man: an Unauthorized Biography, George Case (2007), p. 126:[4]

["The Rain Song"] was inspired by a meeting with George Harrison, who teased John Bonham over Led Zeppelin's avoidance of slow songs. "I'll give him a ballad!"^[6] thought Jimmy Page, and even nudged at the Beatle's "Something" in "The Rain Song"'s opening chord shift.

From Houses of the Holy Rolling Stone review, Gavin Edwards (2003):[5]

And in tribute to Harrison, the opening two notes are recognizably borrowed from his ballad "Something."

If this is going to be paraphrased, it may better simplify it to something like "the guitar opening quotes Harrison's "Something"". —Ojorojo (talk) 15:16, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

"Verifiability not truth" and all that, dictates that where sources disagree, we should document the disagreements without bias. There's no reason to not cite multiple sources and fully explain that there's one seemingly irrefutable fact that Harrison inspired Zeppelin to create Rain Song, and that it references Something in the opening, but that the details are [ 1, 2, 3 ... ] (which isn't surprising where recollections are involved). Nice reference hunting BTW :-) fredgandt 18:09, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Just an aside but one claim that "The Rain Song" borrowed the opening two chords is a myth. These are the opening chords for "The Rain Song": G5, Gmaj7, G7, Eb/G, G2 [6] . These are the opening chords for "Something": F, Eb, G7/D, C, C7 [7] . The fact that none of three sources quoted by Ojorojo agree with each other indicates to me the authors likely took liberty with what was actually said. 2002:42B4:392A:0:0:0:42B4:392A (talk) 20:54, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

It's not an aside if it's relevant, and again this is a matter of verifiability over truth; if it was claimed that such and such said a thing about a thing, and there's a reliable source that confirms it, then we can add it - and should.

If there are reliable sources discussing the chord structure in regards to this claim, then the information should also be included, whether it confirms or denies, or if they disagree. The facts are whatever they are, whether they're agreeable or not. Should we not have articles about fictional characters in books, simply because it's all entirely made up? Of course not . We just need to present the information in an unbiased and sourced fashion.

Original research though, whether right or wrong should be avoided. Whether the chords are obviously utterly different or obviously the same, unless there's a source discussing it, it's OR. Equally, even if Harrison didn't inspire Zeppelin to write the song, sources claim that he did. It's all a matter of balance. Tell the truth as it appears to be in the wider world, whether we like it or not. fredgandt 21:54, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Include it, this text is less trivial than the working title for the song and the fact that the studio console was previously used for a live Who album, both of which are mentioned in the same section — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.143.228.11 (talk) 11:37, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

That pesky opening – Yes, we have to live with "verifiablity not truth". But are we really expected to provide a lot of conflicting details? I was curious about the discrepancies, so I checked for more sources.

From same Tolinski book, but in the songs section:[8]

After playfully evoking the verse section of Harrison's "Something" on the first three chords of "The Rain Song", Page veers off into an ultimately more ambitious progression.

From Is Tiny Dancer Really Elton's Little John?: Music's Most Enduring Mysteries, Myths, and Rumors Revealed, Gavin Edwards (same author as the RS album review) (2010), p. 108:[9]

If you listen carefully to the intro, there's a subtle but unmissable musical tribute to Harrison. Page has explained, "I purposely stuck the first two notes of "Something" on 'The Rain Song'."

From Led Zeppelin FAQ: All That's Left to Know About the Greatest Hard Rock Band of All Time, George Case (same author as Jimmy Page: Magus), (2011), eBook:[10]

"I said, 'I'll give him a ballad," Jimmy Page recollected, "and I wrote 'The Rain Song' ... In fact, you'll notice I even quote "Something' in the song's first two chords."

From From A Whisper to A Scream: The Complete Guide to the Music of Led Zeppelin, Dave Lewis (2012), eBook:[11]

"So I wrote 'The Rain Song' – in fact, you'll notice I even quote 'Something' in the song's first two chords."

From Experiencing Led Zeppelin: A Listener's Companion, Gregg Akkerman (2014), p. 66:[12]

The first two chords, borrowed from Harrison's "Something," are all you need to hear to know a ballad is coming your way.

From What You Want Is in the Limo: On the Road with Led Zeppelin ..., Michael Walker (2013), p. 62:[13]

In a friendly intramural dig, Page's opening chords of "The Rain Song" unquestionably quote "Something."

It's odd that Page would actually say the "first two notes" and the "first two chords" (he's quoted with both). Or did Page really say anything? Case writes that Page thought "I'll give him a ballad", while Tolinksi quotes Page as saying "I said, "I'll give him a ballad". The authors are also inconsistent: Tolinski quotes Page saying the "first two chords", but later writes the "first three chords"; Case changes from "opening chord shift" to a quote from Page re: the "first two chords". I'm not sure that the reader would benefit from pointing out all the inconsistencies. I bring this up because I've run into differing quotes from the same interview before. —Ojorojo (talk) 19:56, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Purely my opinion: If anyone feels like adding a full breakdown of who said what according to whom, then fine, but a referenced quote which covers the basics is also fine. We can't know what anyone actually said, only what the reference says was said. In the long run, the disagreements are trivial compared with the agreements, which are that Harrison seems to have inspired the song by commenting, and that there may be a musical phrase reference to Something at the start. As long as we're not too specific about 'exactly what happened, we don't need to explain that we don't know. We just say what we do know, which is what the references say. Fundamentally, I agree that where there are inconsistencies, we have a hard time deciding what to print, but only if we try to make it something it isn't - only if we're effectively printing OR. And whilst not mentioning the discrepancies is close to bullshitting, as long as the stuff that is mentioned isn't presented as truth, we're good to go. Hanging the bulk of the info on the inclusion of a referenced quote lets us somewhat off the hook. We're not claiming that it's unquestionably true, we're just saying that the reference says that that's what was said. fredgandt 20:34, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Makes no difference what Page may or may not have said because the opening two chords, let alone three, are not the same. That is the truth and can be verified as such. Page was mistaken, maybe the interviewer was mistaken, either way the first two chords are not the same. 177.69.127.189 (talk) 23:57, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

It makes every difference what the sources say. If you or anyone else can provide an acceptable source that discusses the dis/similarity between the melodic structures in regard to this claim, we should include it. Otherwise your opinion is original research and should not be included, nor should it affect what is included. fredgandt 01:44, 17 March 2016 (UTC)

After some thought, I agree your proposal for using a referenced quote is the best solution. Some are dedicated to removing any suggestion that Page or LZ were influenced or inspired by any other song, writer, or musician, so additional details and references are moot. However, I tried adding the source and linked author for extra clarity. —Ojorojo (talk) 17:06, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

IMO that's pretty much ideal. We get a healthy balance of imparting info as interpreted, whilst maintaining editorial distance from opinion. "So and so is quoted by so and so, but so and so says something else" hits the nail squarely on the head (reminds me of degree level essays where daring to have an opinion is a crime punishable by death).

Any objections? fredgandt 18:10, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

None here. Regarding the concerns of accuracy, no reliable source offered so far contradicts the notion of a tribute, so a purported mistake is not obvious. The is also no evidence Page has retracted or denied what is attributed to him. Also, the Page quote says "In fact, you'll notice I even quote 'Something' in the song's first two chords." It does not specify that these two chords are taken from the beginning of that song. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.143.230.114 (talk) 19:06, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

With no stated objection

it's fair to assume we have reached agreement on this issue, and the sandboxed version below should be added to the article (with refs completed). Any editor involved may do the work. If it's not done by the time I get back from a deserved night's sleep, I'll do it myself :-) fredgandt 09:59, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

---

I've added the sandbox of the discussed section for editors to manipulate with an aim to reach agreement. I've started the ball rolling by making changes I consider suitable. Please keep the discussion above the sandbox.

With the quotes containing the information about the chords, it seems prudent to simply include a quote, and thus include the info along with a reference to the reference. Not sure about formatting.

I've also reordered the inclusion of the slush info, to make the whole section less list like. fredgandt 19:17, 16 March 2016 (UTC)

Sandbox of "Recording" section for communal editing

"The Rain Song" is a ballad of over seven minutes in length. Guitarist Jimmy Page originally constructed the melody of this song at his home in Plumpton, England, where he had recently installed a studio console. A new Vista model, it was partly made up from the Pye Mobile Studio which had been used to record the group's 1970 Royal Albert Hall performance and The Who's Live at Leeds album.

With a working title of "Slush", a reference to its easy listening simulated orchestral arrangement, page was able to bring in a completed arrangement of the melody, for which singer Robert Plant composed the words. This song is considered by Plant to be his best overall vocal performance. The song also features a Mellotron played by John Paul Jones to add to the orchestral effect, while Page plays a Danelectro guitar.

George Harrison was reportedly the inspiration for "The Rain Song" when he made a comment to Led Zeppelin drummer John Bonham, about the fact that the group never wrote any ballads. In Light and Shade: Conversations with Jimmy Page, biographer Brad Tolinski quotes Page:

George [Harrison] was talking to Bonzo one evening and said, 'The problem with you guys is that you never do ballads.' I said, 'I'll give him a ballad,' and I wrote 'Rain Song,' which appears on House of the Holy. In fact, you'll notice I even quote 'Something' in the song's first two chords.

although there is some disagreement about exactly what was said by whom.[Case (2007)][Lewis (2012)][Akkerman (2014)]

References