Talk:The Syn

Untitled

The Syn? Hopeless old men trying to pretend they used to matter, when, in fact, they did not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.6.4.181 (talk) 01:57, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

COI

Not sure why the page was marked COI. --Umbrello (talk) 15:32, 7 October 2008 (UTC)

Because you, judging by your user name, your edits and your userpage, are or are closely connected to Steve Nardelli and, thus, The Syn and Umbrello Records. See WP:COI for more on the Wikipedia policy on conflicts of interest. Bondegezou (talk) 13:38, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Bondegezou, your tone is rather judgmental. And, from my online research, your writings at times don't appear to be an unbiased observer nor reporter. As a new contributor to Wikipedia, I was using the User page to write the article, experiment with layout; sort of an area of testing. I didn't realize it was a live page. I'll remove the content and experiement and test my code in the sandbox. In addition, I have read and have been reading the Wikipedia policy and my aim is not to undermine the valuable work by the community nor violate the policy. As for conflict of interest, Mr. Bondegezou, your words against Mr. Nardelli, The Syn, Umbrello Records come across as venemous. The goal here is to develop good articles. Should I recluse myself because you dislike my unsername?--Umbrello (talk) 01:04, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Mr. Bondegezou, I noted that you state that you are a fan of specific musical groups. As a fan, such as myself, what distinguishes you as free from COI? I also noted on the pages where you contribute, as well as your User page, there is discussion on improving articles. Whereas, with regards to The Syn article and the Steve Nardelli article, it appears that you do not welcome such discussion and it is limited to warnings, which are perceived as attacks. I think we can get more accomplished working toward improving an article through constructive discussion. Don't you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Umbrello (talk • contribs) 01:54, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Being a fan is not a conflict of interest. Please read WP:COI for what is meant. Are you saying that you have no personal or financial connection to Umbrello Records, Steve Nardelli or The Syn? Bondegezou (talk) 13:45, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm glad we clarified fan status of not being a COI and look forward to improving on the articles. In fact, I have done some work off line (rather than on the User page!) on both articles and in the midst of fact checking. By the way, I found your interview with Steve Nardelli very thorough and well written. I assure you there is neutrality and appreciate the respect that I may edit pseudonymously. It's not necessary for you to try to out this editor's real life identity in order to prove a conflict of interest. As for personal connection, it is likely as your personal connection to Yes and specific band members. All the best. --Umbrello (talk) 17:31, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I have met a number of members of Yes, and had some online communication with a couple. Pete Banks knows me, and maybe a couple of others would recognise me. None of it constitutes anything that's considered an issue under WP:COI. Bondegezou (talk) 21:45, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

That's good. We are both neutral and have no bias along with a mutual goal of quality articles. Kind regards, --Umbrello (talk) 23:43, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that your edits do not have a neutral point of view. You have made unsupported claims praising the band (see diff), misrepresented what citations say (see this) and repeatedly sought to cut critical material, even when supported by citations (see here). Bondegezou (talk) 10:01, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Bondegezou, the quote was corrected with regards to the citation for the magazine article and I thank you for pointing it out. Are you calling, 'Before there was Yes, there was The Syn' praise? It's a fact. Let's search the statement and we can cite a source for that as well. You might even find that you have used those words yourself at one time. Also,if you choose to write about controversy, it's important to present all sides. If you can't present all sides fairly and cannot keep a neutral tone, best leave it out just as in the Yes related articles. The noted source is a statement on a Web site and that Web site is owned by the individual involved in the controversy. Another source is a post by yourself on a forum and the statement cannot be substantiated other than your opinion. So, I believe correcting an ommission; for example, Nardelli wrote the base track for Armistice Day, etc., is more in line with critical material than controversy represented by only one side. Fair and balanced and the Yes related articles are very good examples.

Your neutrality is of concern, particularly with your own words, "The reunion of Syn and subsequent developments, including the creation of Umbrello Records, has sparked much discussion. (Having played a small part in the process myself, I cannot claim to be entirely objective here.) Henry Potts, 18 Oct 05"

Bondegezou, I don't believe you own the articles and certainly hope you don't block other editors.--Umbrello (talk) 22:28, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

You are mistaken to say that, "Another source is a post by yourself on a forum". The citation is to a forum discussion in which Steve Nardelli said the statement quoted in the article. I have fixed the URL to more clearly point to that one post. Comments by band members on online fora are valid citations.

The phrase "Before there was Yes, there was The Syn" is correct in so far as The Syn preceded Yes, but its tone implies rather more. I don't think it sits well in the article and the current edit, quoting Chris Welch, seems better to me. However, the diff I gave of one of your edits above also included the line, "The source of the progressive rock movement can be traced back to this legendary band." That is, frankly, nonsense. Bondegezou (talk) 22:48, 12 October 2008 (UTC)

Continued... I have not blocked editing of this article. Numerous edits have been made in the last few days and I've only changed some of those for reasons as given (see examples above) as the edit history clearly shows. I did play a small role in The Syn reunion, but have no ongoing conflict of interest in the band. If there are any concerns, I strongly encourage other editors to look over my edits. Bondegezou (talk) 16:11, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

I noted some of your recent edits and 'undos' and have some comments for discussion. The Syn UK tour, as stated in the article, was cancelled; do you have the citation regarding poor ticket sales. Observation, The section covering Armistice Day still doesn't provide balance and it holds the same biased tone as your Web site's section covering The Syn and Nardelli.--Umbrello (talk) 23:50, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

[Reset indentation] I'll look for a citation re ticket sales. Obviously, if I don't find one, then that sentence should go. My website is my website and I say what I want on it. The edits around Armistice Day were made by someone else, but I found citations for the material. If you can find a citation for a response from Steve Nardelli on the issue, that would seem a good way forward in terms of achieving balance. Bondegezou (talk) 19:09, 14 October 2008 (UTC)

Hello, I've been trying to help by searching for a citation with regards to ticket sales and haven't been successful. I have also searched for a citation for a response from Nardelli on the Armistice Day issues and it looks like there are no public statements made by him; likely because they are business matters that could be deemed private or involve lawyers.--Umbrello (talk) 17:12, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I remember Nardelli making some sort of statement at the time, either on 14Hour or AllGoodPeople. If I can find it, I'll add it. Bondegezou (talk) 08:22, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

I noted your edit and the new heading seems appropriate. Any success in locating citations for ticket sales and balancing out the biased tone. Also, I went to the Squire page to follow the statement about the continued work of Johnson and Stacey and all I see is a 2007 Christmas album and an expected release of a 2008 project. It's very vague. Again, the section needs reworking and reflects the biased tone in your Web site. You can write whatever you desire on your Web site. Here we need balance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Umbrello (talk • contribs) 04:20, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

What is unbalanced about reporting a subsequent project involving multiple members of The Syn? Bondegezou (talk) 09:46, 18 October 2008 (UTC)\

Stop, Bondegezou. I have just about had it with your biased approach. I am now going to filter thru, along with my editors, the articles related to Yes. Most notably, those articles and edits with your 'stamp' on them. If you want to be voiced and biased, stick with your Web site, Bodnegezou. But, don't come here to Wikepedia under the guise of neutrality. You've tested my patience enough. Now, let's open this up and rip open the Yes articles. THANKS TO BONDEGEZOU.

That sort of language is not appropriate behaviour on Wikipedia. I've reported your threats to the Administrators' noticeboard. Bondegezou (talk) 09:39, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Reviews

I've been looking for some more reviews and have already added one for Syndestructible. Another of possible use is here. Bondegezou (talk) 10:08, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Citations

Need assistance. I was reviewing the citations and they appear to be out of sync. The citation for #2 pointed to a broken link.--RexerX (talk) 15:36, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, under References, Item 7, [1], points to a broken link or page missing on the Chris Squire Web site. In an effort to assist, I added text definitions to all the references except the broken one.--RexerX (talk) 20:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Good work on those citation fixes. I've found an archived version of reference 7 through the Internet Archive Wayback Machine, see here and have added it to the page. Bondegezou (talk) 11:00, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Task accomplished and thank you for the compliment. That's a great service, Internet Archive Wayback Machine.--RexerX (talk) 18:15, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

"The"?

I seem to recall Chris Squire stating there that the band's name has always been "Syn". Does anyone know of any material (WP:RS of course) that discusses the band's name, and the fact that, at least in the band's earlier days, they were known without the definitive article? 2tuntony (talk) 11:09, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

End of 2009 tour

User:Digbyjohn and myself have been going back and forth over what happened at the end of The Syn's 2009 touring. The band played a small number of dates, finishing 1 May. Digbyjohn has repeatedly added text along these lines: "[the tour] was cancelled after 6 dates when Nardelli had to return to England when the UK Government selected his company's eco project for development" and s/he gives three citations, [1], [2], and [3].

Those citations do not support the text inserted, as far as I can see. The North West Bicester link describes the UK government selecting an eco project, but has no mention of Steve Nardelli or The Syn. The text doesn't appear to be dated, but this page dates it as 16 July 2009. nwbicester.co.uk is a commercial site promoting itself related to this project.

The other two citations are both to p3group.co.uk, the website of the company concerned, so again not a reliable source. The first is the company page about Nardelli, which describes him as "a Director" (but he's not the chairman, which is Ian Inshaw, while Graham Johnson is also a director). This page identifies Nardelli as the same person in The Syn, but it says nothing about The Syn's 2009 tour and nothing about the UK government selecting an eco project. The other page describes a June 2013 event related to the eco project, attended by Nardelli, with no mention of The Syn.

So, Digbyjohn has given 3 citations. They are all promotional sites related to company activities. They identify Nardelli of The Syn as Nardelli of P3 Group, not that this was in doubt. They say that P3 Group has been selected for an eco project. This is announced on 16 July 2009. None of these citations support the claim that The Syn tour was cancelled because P3 Group won the contract: none of them make any reference to The Syn's touring. What dates we have (final Syn date, 1 May; nwbicester.co.uk announcement, 16 July) don't particularly line up, but it would constitute original research to start speculating along those lines.

Ergo, I will revert Digbyjohn's edit again. User:Digbyjohn: please come and discuss the changes you are proposing here and how they comply with Wikipedia policy -- thanks. Bondegezou (talk) 10:54, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

Concur with that assessment, and have reverted further added unref material from @Digbyjohn: about some workshops at a high school in Virginia which isn't mentioned in any of the sources, and whose importance should be demonstrated from secondary sources (WP:PSTS). Dl2000 (talk) 22:48, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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