Talk:Tigray War/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Civilian casualties

@Leechjoel9: They don't mention the total number. They are either a source talking about an event like a massacre or a day by day report like the Europe External Programme with Africa situation reports. And if you add up the deaths mentioned you'll get the civilian death count. Wowzers122 (talk) 22:17, 30 January 2021 (UTC)

Wowzers122, quote pertinent excerpts, please. All this back and forth, absent you doing so, is a timesink and should be avoided. Thank you. El_C 00:33, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

"A Tigrayan youth group stabbed, strangled, and bludgeoned to death at least 600 civilians with the collusion of local security forces during a massacre in the town of Mai Kadra, the Ethiopian Human Rights Commission said on Tuesday." 600 killed

"In the three days it took federal forces to wrest control of the village from the TPLF, 27 civilians died, according to local officials and residents: 21 from shelling and six in extrajudicial killings." 27 killed

"Three sources, including a different Western official, said they had received reports of an Eritrean attack on a church in Dinglet, in eastern Tigray, on Nov. 30. By one account, 35 people whose names were provided were killed." and "At Hitsats, Eritrean soldiers initially clashed with local Tigrayan militiamen in battles that rolled across the camp. Scores of people were killed, including four Ethiopians employed by the International Rescue Committee and the Danish Refugee Council, aid workers said." 39 killed

"Reportedly 37 civilians were killed by Eritrean troops in Mariam Dengelat. This follows further reports of Ethiopian ENDF soldiers shooting at unarmed civilians. Recent days has also seen the emergence of names of civilians killed in Tigray emerging, this includes an entire family in Adigrat." and "On social media claims of four named priests and three civilians killed by troops (reportedly ENDF and Eritrean allied troops) in Zalambessa." 44 killed

"Ethiopian TV has reported that 300 refugees in Hitsats camp were executed by the TPLF"... 300 killed

"According to DW the ENDF aligned forces are committing atrocities on civilians in Gijet, southern Tigray through heavy bombardment and killed 21 youth, including a 7 year old child." 21 killed

"Report that 150 civilians were hiding in a church in Edagahamus, Tigray. They were, reportedly, brutally killed. It is estimated that 300 civilians were killed in Edagahamus and surrounding." and "It is reported that 1000 civilians were killed in attacks on Aksum town and 500 civilians in Wukro." 1,800 killed

"A source has said that 150 civilians have been killed by Eritrean soldiers near Nebelet town. This would include 4 muslims guarding the local mosque (at Adi Argudi)." 150 killed

"Reported in social media that more than 160 civilians have been murdered by ENDF soldiers in Bora near Maychaw town in the Southern Tigray." and "According to a source in social media, 13 members of a family have been killed by Eritrean soldiers in a village named May Cado, near Hawzen, Eastern Tigray." 173 killed

"Eritrean soldiers have forced 6.000 refugees from Shimelba camp to return to Eritrea. Of those politically active, 120 have disappeared. Eritrean soldiers also killed 64 people in the camp." 64 killed

"Lists of 49 names of civilians who died in the Saint Mary’s Church of Dengelat, Tigray, is circulating." 49 killed

"In the last days, there has been fighting again around the Hitsats camp for Eritrean refugees. Eritrean soldiers killed many Eritrean refugees and took some of them to Eritrea. Some refugees escaped to the Adi Harush camp. A woman testified that in the flight from Hitsats to Adi Harush, 3 persons died." 3 killed

"Reported that Hitsats camp was under Eritrean military control from end November/December. Eritrean soldiers killed people, including 2 priests that protested when soldiers tried to enter into the church. Tigray troops started shooting on 17 November in a fight with the Eritrean troops, and 9 Eritrean refugees were killed in the crossfire. Shimelba and Hitsats have not been accessible since." 11 killed

"Fighting was reported at Edaga Arbi and Tigray regional forces have destroyed one ENDF battalion and captured 8 Bren machine guns, 100 AK-47 and many soldiers. In revenge, ENDF forces killed more than 80 youths at Debre Abbay." 80 killed

"Reported that 80-100 young people were killed by Eritrean and Ethiopian forces in the Endabaguna area in the North-Western Zone. The area where the victims were killed has been and still is under the control of Eritrean and Ethiopian forces.", "Further drone attacks were reported on in Workeamba in which 85 people died (4/12 2020); Abi Addi where civilians were attacked indiscriminately (8/12); Central fronts in Tigray (13/12 2020); in Wukro and Tembien where hundreds of civilians died among others with bombardments carried out with drones ((15/12 2020); two journalists were killed by a drone attack reported 10/1 2021 and on 21/1 2021 it is reported that the son of Sebhat Nega is killed by a drone attack, driving in his car.", "Report that “Escapees from Irob arrived in Mekelle last week, reported an ongoing heavy fighting all over Irobland. Widespread indiscriminate civilian mass killings and burning of houses by Eritrean forces are reported from Giitello, Gammadaa, Alitena, Awo, Harrade, Sabaya, Magaauma, Mosigade, Dawhan, Kimbiro, Agaralekoma, Maibinno, Maadia villages in Irob district. Just in the last two weeks at least 50 civilians are killed in those villages including 10 family members from Gammadaa village.”, "It is reported that “about 21 to 30 civilians at church in Giitello village where they were gathered to celebrate Ethiopian Christmas at local church” were killed by Eritrean forces." 239 killed Wowzers122 (talk) 18:12, 31 January 2021 (UTC)

@Leechjoel9 and El C: You two there?

There are some issues with some of these sources as mentioned before such as “destroyed” doesn’t have to mean fatalities and so on. Some of the sources mentions casualties but many of these are just claims or mentions e.g social media claims, or reported individual claims, that have yet have been confirmed or verified. I think user boud (talk · contribs) provided a suggestion on this. A user should be able to precisely check individual claims against references. As mentioned before, this will not solve the info box issue since it will be hard to precisely come up with a figure of how many confirmed casualties there actually are, without sources verifying this. Leechjoel9 (talk) 14:50, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

References

New report on civilian deaths.

A number of different political parties in Tigray published a report saying that 52,000 civilians have been killed in the war, is this report trust worthy. I'm gonna add it to the info box as like (52,000 killed, Tigray opposition claim).--Garmin21 (talk) 16:35, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

There is difference between claims and actual confirmed cases of casualties. This is the type of data that can be considered as claims, one side claiming x casualties and the other side claims x casualties. As mentioned above there is ways of presenting this type of info, and the info box is not the way, as pointed out by others. Leechjoel9 (talk) 18:18, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

 Done: Casualties of the Tigray War. This doesn't resolve the infobox issue for this page, but might give hints. Boud (talk) 18:30, 2 February 2021 (UTC)

References

Map

Tigray War test map

I got bored and decided to make a map of the Tigray War. So I want to know if you guys would okay with including. If you decide no that's understandable since there is a dispute on whether or not EEPA can be considered a reliable source or not. I know it isn't the best thing in the world but this conflict is missing a map. I took information from EEPA situation reports, the UN, and other sources to make the map into one big picture. Also if you want a source on why or why not an area is controlled by the TPLF or Eritrea I can go and refind the source. I've already tested it on my sandbox to see how it would look and you can check it out too: User:Wowzers122/sandbox

Also, I made this map like a day or two ago so there could have been some changes from then.

Anyways just let me know what you think. Feel free to suggest any additions/removal/changes. Bye. Wowzers122 (talk) 21:24, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

I don’t think you can conclude the areas where there are ongoing conflict, and which forces that are present and so on.. it’s impossible to keep an update on it, besides this is not a news article. Leechjoel9 (talk) 22:25, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

If there is at least one editor likely to update the map frequently, and others to keep an eye on it and fix it, then this would make sense, and there's plenty of precedent. This has been common in en.Wikipedia articles for many years now. However:

• the map should be uploaded to and updated at Commons;
• the map should be in svg format;
• there are quite a lot of free-licensed sources to start with for many administrative states/regions/districts of the world; please don't derive a map from a source with an incompatible licence.

The svg format will make it much easier for other editors to update. Svg format is plain text, so any text editor such as emacs can used to edit it to easily make small changes, and mediawiki software will automatically make conversions to formats such as png. Inkscape is the classical, very mature, gui type software for visual svg editing.

Another advantage of svg format is that it is straightforward to provide alternative languages for text in the image, instead of providing separate images.

Typical examples include Commons:File:Libyan Civil War.svg and Commons:File:Syrian_Civil_War.svg. You can browse through the histories there. A difference with Wikipedia is that the history is shown by default, in a table structure, showing how the image has evolved, and showing the comments for the updates.

In principle there should really be four colours/shades: three similar enough to each other for the Amhara, EDF and ENDF administered/controlled regions; one for TPLF controlled. We have very limited information, but that has also been the case for the Syrian and Libyan civil wars. But people doing the edits will have to convince the others what the sources are and come to consensus for updates.

In summary, it's doable and useful, but a lot of work, and I'm not volunteering. I think I might have made at most just a few edits of these sorts of maps at Commons, a long time ago. Boud (talk) 11:08, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Just curious, where did you find enough citations for an up to date frontline? I thought we had ruled this out in the past because it was more of a guerilla war and frontline coverage would be hard. Flalf^Talk 18:50, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't call this a guerilla war at the moment as the UN has said that the Ethiopian government may not be in control of 40% of Tigray. You are right about frontline coverage being hard though as must places in Tigray have had their internet cut off. Now are asking for all the sources used or just the sites where the sources are taken from? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wowzers122 (talk • contribs) 19:47, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

The Ethiopian Red Cross Society says as of 10 Feb that 80% of Tigray is cut off from humanitarian access. I assume that means square km, not people. So about 80% of the Tigray Region in the map as of today, per ERCS, would have to be marked either as "disputed" or controlled by TPLF. Making and maintaining a map seriously is doable, but would be a lot of work. Seeing that many people here are still learning text editing skills, there would be quite some time involved in building up the skills for editing svg images. Worth it in the long term for those who try. (Again, I'm not volunteering, just giving advice for those motivated to try.) Boud (talk) 19:59, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

Just to clarify whether this is currently doable or not: people doing it would have to put references, e.g. in the comments for the edit comment column on the Commons page of the file, in a way that is clear enough that others agree that map is properly sourced. The convention (see the Syrian and Libyan civil war maps) for map referencing seems to be different to Wikipedia articles: bare URLs seem to be typically accepted as enough. However, I'm saying this as someone who has quickly scanned the discussions, not as someone who has got involved in editing or tried to check the maps versus the sources. There's no point creating a map that will be edit-warred because people are confused or disagree on what reference claims what and when. Boud (talk) 22:30, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

The UN OCHA map is probably quite accurate, but it only shows access, not who controls what: https://reports.unocha.org/en/country/ethiopia - map - the licence is something like CC NC-ND, so only the information in it can be used, not the particular style of presenting the information. (It does suggest that the ENDF has very little territorial control, apart from the road to Humera and parts of the road to Mekelle. Time for a peace process? or 10 years of war?) Boud (talk) 04:16, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not really sure thats useable, the ENDF has been heavily restricting access as well, so it only confirms a small portion where there is access as ENDF and the rest as either. Flalf^Talk 04:19, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

References

New Edits

@Daron1220: Why do you keep removing sources and changing stuff without providing new sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wowzers122 (talk • contribs) 21:13, 12 February 2021 (UTC)

Inclusion of more recent events

Does any one have links in Operation Seyum Mesfin. They should be added with the "Final offensive" of Eritrean troops. Euphrosine14 (talk) 08:35, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

You could look through the Timeline of the Tigray War or directly at Seyoum Mesfin. There aren't many sources suggesting a final offensive - noone knows if the war will end in ten weeks or ten years, unless there's more progress in the Tigrayan peace process. There would need to be a willingness to negotiate from all three main parties (ENDF, TPLF, EDF), and the pre-conditions would themselves have to be negotiated; trust would have to be built up in a mediation; and so on as with all peace processes. Mulugeta Gebrehiwot has extensive experience with DDR, which would be a later stage of the peace process. Boud (talk) 04:56, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 February 2021 - Role of online social networks

The previous paragraph misrepresents the research published in the Washington Post in November and February. Please change the existing paragraph to the paragraph below:

Claire Wilmot, writing in The Washington Post, found that a significant number of new, single-issue Twitter accounts were opened in the immediate aftermath of November 4th. Contrary to appearances, most appeared not to be bots--real people were behind most of these accounts, seeking to raise international awareness about the conflict in the midst of a communications blackout in Tigray. The Ethiopian government has cited disinformation and hate speech to justify communications blackouts--however, researchers suggest that reducing access to information may help to create contexts where misinformation can thrive, because it reduces the ability to verify information, a crucial tool in the fight against disinformation. The Ethiopian government has sought to control the information environment by positioning itself as the sole provider of reliable information. In February, pro-government groups have called on their supporters in Ethiopia and the diaspora to combat what they call "TPLF fake news" online. Pro-government groups have used similar tactics to pro-Tigray groups to push their narrative of the conflict, though as of February 5, pro-government campaigns had produced fewer Tweets overall. Researchers found that groups use tactics such as "copy and paste" campaigns hosted on websites, which include instructions for opening new accounts, copying and pasting pre-written tweets, and tagging influential figures. Both campaigns have produced disinformation and misinformation, though the majority of content produced is activist in nature. Wilmot suggests that the lines between authentic political activity and platform manipulation during this conflict are increasingly blurred. Poissonrouge11 (talk) 14:43, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Which heading is this paragraph under? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:50, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Role of online social networks Wowzers122 (talk) 17:00, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

I'll give the sources a read and compare the versions and see if I can sign my name to that change. It'll probably take some time. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:04, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

Looks pretty good. All set. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 17:42, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

The new text was a bit difficult to read as source and there were WP:RELTIME problems, but I've tidied it up. There's still some WP:COPYVIO issues to be checked, e.g. real people behind most of these new accounts. Boud (talk) 04:21, 20 February 2021 (UTC)

References

added reflist-talk that otherwise sinks into other sections. Boud (talk) 00:09, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Introducing the belligerents

Pincrete: on 10 February 2021 you undid my attempt at clarifying the sides of the conflict by removing "between two sides" etc. I take your point about the existence of two sides being common, but let me explain why I put that there in the first place. Take a look at the current wording -- the introduction says that the conflict is "between the Tigray Regional Government, led by the Tigray People's Liberation Front (TPLF) and the Ethiopian National Defense Forces (ENDF)". That is confusing to a newcomer. At first it looks like the ENDF is helping lead the regional government. And this is just the current wording -- if you look at the history of editing of this first paragraph, the description of the two sides changes unusually frequently. Keeping the phrase "between two sides" and using a semicolon between the two ever-varying descriptions of the two sides was my proposed compromise. It keeps the grammar of the sentence robust as the editing of descriptions continues. I hope that this explanation helps. Mebden (talk) 23:05, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Most of these sources are behind paywalls for me, so I can't read them. However, I don't agree with your major point, apart from "between two sides" being very 'flat-footed', I don't think it addresses the point you are making (that the make up of the warring parties is complex), but you obviously know the subject better than I and my logic is stylistic rather than factual. Pincrete (talk) 09:30, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Ok thanks. Just now I've broken the introduction into two sentences as a compromise. Mebden (talk) 11:48, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

@Pincrete: Most of the sources for this Wikipedia article have archives that are not paywalled. Feel free to add a comment to the talk page asking for help if you cannot archive an article that appears paywalled to you. Usually you can give the URL to an archiver, wait a few minutes, and then come back and see if the archived page is ready; the paywall problem is then no longer your problem. Boud (talk) 00:20, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Feedback for related page

See Talk:Maryam Ts'iyon massacre#Informal title change proposal. Boud (talk) 00:07, 24 February 2021 (UTC)

Somalia and UAE as belligerents and supporting belligerents.

@EliezerAbate: Why is there no evidence? What's wrong with the sources used? Wowzers122 (talk) 04:48, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

@Wowzers122: You are using speculative articles as conclusive sources which is nonsense. I can go ahead and create a blog that says Syria was involved in the conflict and site them as belligerents using your standards. Furthermore the insinuation that the Eritrean Navy and Air Force are involved in this conflict is bunk. In short, the sources used to justify the UAE's involvement are fabricated. EliezerAbate (talk) 05:10, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

@EliezerAbate: I never had a problem with you removing the Eritrean Navy and Air Force. I looked at the article you listed and the articles that were already there. I agree with you that there is still no solid evidence of UAE drones besides a civilian account and a Chinaese article. But the TPLF still claimed the UAE was involved and that should be mentioned in the infobox: United Arab Emirates (TPLF claim). I'll get back to you concerning the other belligerents once I look at those. Wowzers122 (talk) 18:43, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

According to the Washington Post and Garowe Online Somali involvement is alleged and not confirmed and that's why it has (alleged) in the infobox. https://archive.vn/n0tQY and https://www.garoweonline.com/en/news/somalia/ex-spy-chief-claims-hundreds-of-somali-soldiers-killed-in-tigray-region. For the supporting side Abiy Ahmed said it himself. Eritrea, Djibouti, Somalia, Sudan, and Kenya have fully supported his government’s stance on the crisis in Tigray. https://erena.org/eritrean-opposition-soldiers-fought-on-the-side-of-tplf-ethiopian-pm/. None of those articles are speculative articles or the words of some dude who created a blog. Wowzers122 (talk) 19:17, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

@Wowzers122: That's reasonable, however then, if we take all the claims of the TPLF at face value, then we must apply the same standards for the Ethiopian government. For example, this article casts doubt on the assertion from the government that the conflict is over,by putting it in quotes. The Axion Zion "massacre" claim doesn't have evidence as well. Both of us know information is hard to come by during this conflict, but the way this article is written is that anything the Ethiopian government claims is characterized as suspect while the TPLF's claims are taken as fact. Let's not make this an extension of the battleground and let's stick to the facts and truth. And this is not necessarily directed at you, per se, but the entire tone and framing of the article. EliezerAbate (talk) 19:20, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I'm not taking it at face value that's why I suggest it to have TPLF claim next to it. Also what about the supporting countries and what's Axion Zion? Wowzers122 (talk) 19:35, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

@Rastakwere: Even the primary source you use to justify UAE's involvement states that "So far, there’s no evidence for that particular claim." There is no evidence that UAE drones were involved in the conflict (https://www.voanews.com/africa/expert-no-evidence-uae-drones-are-being-used-ethiopias-tigray-conflict). The evidence bar needs to be high in such a scenario and not use speculative sources from a random person's blog. See Wikipedia's policy for reliable sources before posting unverified and speculative information: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Potentially_unreliable_sources#Sites_that_may_appear_to_be_reliable_sources_for_Wikipedia,_but_aren't EliezerAbate (talk) 06:21, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

• The infobox is generally meant for clear-cut facts which do not require an explanation. I think it would make sense to mention the disputed allegations that UAE is involved, but not in the infobox. It certainly is not good to include UAE in the infobox when there is no mention of the country in the article. Ultimately, though, all I see is allegations - I do not see any confirmation in reliable sources that the UAE is involved. At the very least, we should list in the infobox that the involvement is disputed. ‡ Єl Cid of Valencia ^talk 15:55, 18 February 2021 (UTC)

What about the Ethiopian Generals admitting to the usage of "UAVs" for drone attacks There are two different High ranking ENDF officials who have admitted to it. It shouldn't be in the infobox but it deserves its own article or topic Euphrosine14 (talk) 20:18, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Why the update tag?

This article is an overview page. It's not always going to have all the most up-to-date details. In any case, to the person who put the update tag in place:

What do you consider to be out-of-date?

The article is already big, and there are sub-articles on most of the particular aspects of the war, where updating makes more sense than here. But please state what you think is missing so that we can decide if we still need the tag. There's no point having an "update" tag just to tell the reader that "the war is still happening" - that's not the point of the tag. If there's no good justification, then anyone should feel free to remove the tag. There are plenty of editors likely to update the article if there's a major change in the situation, e.g. EDF withdrawal or Amhara Region withdrawal. Boud (talk) 22:29, 25 February 2021 (UTC)

Number of fighters

According to the TPLF, tigray only has 23 battalions or 23,000 soldiers, And the Ethio-eritrean coalition had 42 divisons or 420,000 fighters

https://sites.tufts.edu/reinventingpeace/2021/01/29/they-have-destroyed-tigray-literally-mulugeta-gebrehiwot-speaks-from-the-mountains-of-tigray/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euphrosine14 (talk • contribs) 17:38, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

Correction: this was not the word of the TPLF it was the word of a guy living in TPLF controlled territory. The number of TPLF troops is estimated to be 250,000 fighters according to the BBC which is more reliable than Mulugeta.https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-55832712 This is the same with the ENDF troops number of 120,000. I trust the number given by Reuters more https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ethiopia-conflict-military-factbox-idUSKBN27T14J. I guess we can include the number for Eritrea and Amhara though. Wowzers122 (talk) 21:51, 5 February 2021 (UTC)

He He has direct connections with tplf and he was evacuated by TDF too. His numbers give more sense too 250,000 is hugely exaggerated unless the militias are included but they aren't part of TDF or TPLF Euphrosine14 (talk) 16:10, 21 February 2021 (UTC) Please change the 43 Divisions and 23 Battalions to a number of troops that the most reliable source says. --Usa1285980287 (talk) 21:46, 28 February 2021 (UTC)Usa

Denial of Eritrean involvement

@KZebegna: Responding to your edit summary (Which I qoute: "no one cares" is a phrase used only by those in denial of reality that people who do care really exist, aka "pushing your own point of view". End quote.) - 1) fact that Eritrea is involved is not a "point of view". 2) Those in "denial of reality" are the ones who insist that Eritrea is not involved in this war. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 17:13, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

If I'm not mistaken the Ethiopian and Eritrean governments and leadership are denying that, are you saying "no one cares" about their positions, or are you saying that they are "no one"? KZebegna (talk) 17:39, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

The governments have their own reasons to deny the deployment. The denial can be mentioned in an appropriate section of the article, but it does not belong in the infobox. Eritrean troops are fighting in Tigray, and everyone knows it. EDIT: Ethiopia does not deny that Eritrea is fighting the TPLF, it's only denying that the two countries are cooperating on the matter. Mikrobølgeovn (talk) 19:41, 26 February 2021 (UTC)

The variety of sources confirming EDF participation in the Tigray War is now overwhelming:

• Mesfin Hagos used to be the Minister of Defence of Eritrea; he named the specific EDF divisions that entered Tigray Region;
• Amnesty International, based on 41 witness reports, says that there is no doubt that the EDF carried out the Aksum massacre;
• Mulu Nega, head of the Transitional Government of Tigray, says that the EDF should leave Tigray Region;
• the Ethiopian Human Rights Commission, a federal Ethiopian government agency, says that the presence of the EDF in the northwest and eastern zones of Tigray Region "adds to the challenge" of trying to administer the region;
• Seb Hidri, a Tigrayan NGO that the TPLF banned from observing the Sep 2020 election says that the EDF is in Tigray Region.

It's unrealistic to expect the Eritrean government, responsible within Eritrea for "persistent, widespread and systematic attack against the civilian population and .. crimes against humanity and ... the crimes of enslavement, imprisonment, enforced disappearance, torture, other inhumane acts, persecution, rape and murder" (select: compilation of UN information), as found in the 2019 Universal Periodic Review of Eritrea, to be a reliable source about the actions of the EDF. Given that the atrocious human rights situation in Eritrea (see previous sentence) is well known, it's also unsurprising that the federal Ethiopian authorities are trying to deny the EDF presence or cooperation with the EDF presence for as long as possible. Boud (talk) 02:50, 27 February 2021 (UTC) (URL modified: the UN document system has URL problems. Boud (talk) 22:24, 27 February 2021 (UTC))

This is circular reasoning, you are using your own in-house sources that are non neutral and polemic to Eritrea, to claim the Eritrean government is at fault and brush off their point of view as "not endorsed" because "WE" (appointing ourselves the arbiter of what's REALLY going on) have already "endorsed" the pov of the anti-Eritrean groups. Wikipedia leading the way in politics again! KZebegna (talk) 11:28, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

None of the sources I've listed are "in-house"; two are individuals, one of whom we could suspect of "toeing the Prosperity Party line"; three are groups, one of whom might be suspected of being insufficiently independent of Abiy and his government due to lack of resources. Mesfin is anti-current-government-of-Eritrea, which is not "anti-Eritrea" (a fuzzy term that could mean many different things); Wikipedia is not making any "endorsements"; we are not making any political choices. A conspiracy would be needed to get all the sources I've listed above, who have a variety of stated aims and likely biases, to agree with each other in publicly making a false claim that the EDF is present in Tigray Region. Nobody's arguing for the Eritrean government statement to be completely excluded from the article, but it's getting to be a fringe point of view, so including "(denied)" in the infobox is starting to look like giving excess weight. Boud (talk) 23:10, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

• Alula Habteab, Head of the Bureau of Construction, Road and Transport in the Transitional Government of Tigray, not at all likely to be "anti-Eritrean-government", stated that, in addition to the destruction by the war, forces from a neighboring country [Eritrea] and a neighboring region [Amhara] have come in the pretext of the war and caused more destruction than the destruction caused by the war. The head added that Eritrean forces have destroyed all factories all the way up to the city of Wukro. Alula is not an "in-house" source. How did the EDF destroy factories "all the way to Wukro" if they weren't in Tigray Region? Boud (talk) 00:11, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

You declaring that the Eritrean government's positions are a "fringe pov" seems just a little like exceeding your authority and taking a definitive political stance, let us not lose sight of the prime directive not to take sides. KZebegna (talk) 00:56, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

To try to keep a middleground and acknowledge that these are claims, I moved the denials into a footnote. Flalf^Talk 04:50, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Flalf: seems like a good solution to me - thanks.

KZebegna: just to clarify. I do not have any authority here, so I cannot exceed it; we do not use the argument from authority in discussing the edits for en.Wikipedia articles; we are not taking a political stance. There is also some confusion about neutrality (not taking sides). Wikipedia is not neutral; we have a fundamental policy of WP:NPOV, which is not the same thing. To explain it with an uncontroversial case, the article on Adolf Hitler is extremely far from neutral: en.Wikipedia describes him as one of the most evil people to have lived on this planet. Why are we not neutral? Because the sources overwhelmingly describe Hitler as having been utterly evil. Boud (talk) 14:50, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Okay, at least there seems to be sufficient notice that Eritrea disputes the story so I have no complaint with the article now - but if you are talking about weighing the differing accounts from alleged actors in some imaginary balance we ought not to pretend to have, that would certainly be taking a political stance against one or more nations. KZebegna (talk) 17:14, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

We also know Hitler and his friends had their own deceitful press generating a track record of many lies, including publishing every false report to the world about conditions inside Ethiopia before World War Two. KZebegna (talk) 17:21, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 March 2021

Administrative changes, and grammatical changes. In the post-Mekelle capture part. Mo20m0 (talk) 22:34, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. If you can explain the specific changes you'd like to make, another editor can add them for you. Pupsterlove02 talk • contribs 22:40, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

TPLF Crimes Against Humanity and Unprovoked Attacks on Ethiopia, Tigray, and Eritrea

TPLF actions and attacks on civilian populations in Amhara, Tigray,and Eritrean need to be documented in this war of aggression started by TPLF. There reports that TPLF agents massacred Tigrayans Amhara and Eritrean refugees and then fled to Sudan as refugees must be discussed and added to this article. This war seems one sided and controlled by TPLF backed editors on Wikipedia. 04:35, 2 March 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Clownshking (talk • contribs)

New Map?

@Mo20m0: No way this is a map from January 2021. The Ethiopian government is still in control of Mek'ele and a lot of Tigray's main roads and cities. The guy even says "This map does not show the extent of military control of Tigray’s TPLF, Amhara’s militia or the armies of Ethiopia (ENDF) and Eritrea (EDF)." As he said the best approximation for the current front lines is made by Ethiopia map, so I guess you could make a map from that. Wowzers122 (talk) 21:16, 10 March 2021 (UTC)

Article for deletion: Yemane Niguse

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Yemane Niguse: Please add Support or Oppose or Merge with ... (in bold) or a comment, with arguments, at this AfD on Yemane Niguse. Boud (talk) 19:15, 2 April 2021 (UTC)

Eritrea’s presence in Tigray "unconfirmed" ?

I am writing this because there has been too much evidence of a lack of actual Eritrean soldiers presence in Tigray. There has been video documentary of captured TPLF soldiers and militia in Eritrean style uniforms some carrying identity cards stolen from Eritrean refugees disappeared in Tigray refugee camps. Anything at this point written about the EDF being in Tigray is based on TPlf and donation sponsors propaganda. Wikipedia shouldn’t promote this or allow one sidedness!Facttell (talk) 05:36, 13 March 2021 (UTC)

Abiy Ahmed publicly confirmed the involvement of Eritrean forces when he said they were in the process of withdrawing from Tigray. BushelCandle (talk) 12:20, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

Interesting interview on Al Jazeera English

In an interview with Al Jazeera English’s UpFront, spokesperson for the Tigray People’s Liberation Front (TPLF), Getachew Reda, claims that Eritrean armed forces have not left the Tigray region since Ethiopia's prime minister Abiy Ahmed announced last week that Eritrean president Isaias Afwerki had agreed to withdraw forces “out of the Ethiopian border”.

“No, they haven't left,” Reda told UpFront host Marc Lamont Hill. “In fact, since the announcement...Eritrea has been increasing the influx of its forces into Tigray by leaps and bounds.” BushelCandle (talk) 09:32, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Yeah, who could ever have imagined that the Tigray People's Liberation Front would contradict the Abiy government? Fascinating... KZebegna (talk) 10:27, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it is truly amazing news. I never realised that a central government would ever tell less than the whole truth and nothing but the truth to its citizenry. Good heavens, is there nobody you can trust now? (Please excuse me a moment while I restore the symmetry of my cheeks - my tongue seems to be stuck in an unusual position...) BushelCandle (talk) 09:42, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Yes, it is truly amazing news. I never realized that words of the Propaganda Minister of Ethiopia during Tigray People's Liberation Front regime and current spokesperson of the same Tigray People's Liberation Front that's turned into a an ethnic nationalist terrorist group after loosing power during the democratization proses of the country would ever tell less than the whole truth and nothing but the truth to its citizenry or the rest of the world, just take a look at the really beautifully track recorded of the Ethiopian Government under TPLF regime from the 1990s-2018. My goodness, I can trust the words of a heavily armed ethnic nationalist paramilitary insurgency, terrorist organization, political party, and former ruling authoritarian regime of Ethiopia. This is me being sarcastic, following along with everybody else. HOA101 (talk) 21:15, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

In the interests of transparency, it would be best to declare any different account names that you are using simultaneously for the English Wikipedia on your user talk page. BushelCandle (talk) 22:12, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

What alternative accounts are you talking about? I don't have any others, this is it. HOA101 (talk) 23:03, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for that clarification that you are not deliberately logging off and making edits anonymously (as an "IP editor") and neither are you making edits to the same articles using different user accounts.

Personally I tend to focus on the edits themselves, rather then who is making them, but some Wikipedians are not as tolerant as I in this regard.

I also understand that there are a lot of émigrés and exiles from the Horn of Africa in the greater Toronto region and that a particular pattern of spelling mistakes and timings are just as likely explained by that common heritage and current interest than by anything more nefarious.

Enjoy the coming spring! BushelCandle (talk) 06:29, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

I'm not from Canada but Horn Africans, specifically the Ethiopian and Eritrean communities in the United States and Canada are very tight-nit with each other (especially though social media) so we're bound to share a lot of commonalities in our views. HOA101 (talk) 14:44, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Of course that's true, but it seems others believed my suspicions were substantive and your denials could not be believed: see sockpuppets_of_Hoaeter, Suspected_Wikipedia_sockpuppets_of_Hoaeter and Wikipedia:Long-term_abuse/Hoaeter. BushelCandle (talk) 09:31, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

References

DMY dates and non-US English

Just because this article consistently uses non-US date formats says nothing about the flavour of English spelling it should use.

However, this article was started on 4 November 2020 and the first edit that introduced a varietal English spelling on that date used the non-US English flavour of fuelled (in US English, the verb fuel is inflected to fueled and fueling — with one l. In all other main varieties of English, it becomes fuelled and fuelling — with two l's.)

Since this article is not on a topic that has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation,
(the Commonwealth military occupation after they booted out the Italians was very ephemeral)
we should now consistently use the variety found in the first post-stub revision that introduced an identifiable variety.

Consequently, I shall now place the appropriate Varieties of English template on this page. BushelCandle (talk) 23:37, 4 April 2021 (UTC)

User:HOA101 would you explain why you think it a good idea to have TWO conflicting variety of English templates on this article ? BushelCandle (talk) 06:37, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I did that to show the varieties of English that has naturally developed in this article, which is a combination of Commonwealth English and American English in which dates are written in D-M-Y while most other things are written in the American variant. Or we can go the other way and either remove the the requirement for a specific variety of English which is not a big of a deal or switch it to Canadian English which is another compromise. HOA101 (talk) 14:36, 7 April 2021 (UTC)

That might seem reasonable to you and your fellow edit editwarriors in Toronto, but if you ever bother to click on the blue links to Wikipedia policies above that is not the way it's generally done. When no consistent English variety has been established (and this article has no strong links to a particular variety of English and, apart from the fact that there is a great interest in Horn of Africa articles in many variegated user named Wikipedia accounts in the greater Toronto area, I really can not see why we should choose the Canadian variety of English) policy states that not only should we use the flavour of English found in the first post-stub revision that introduced an identifiable variety, but we should also document that flavourby placing [ONE of the - not two!!!] appropriate Varieties of English template on this, the article's talk page. BushelCandle (talk) 08:34, April 2021 (UTC)

I wouldn't go with the first edit that introduced a single word in a specific variant. A fly-by edit could be what sets the MOS:ENGVAR. As for ties, Ethiopia uses English as the language of instruction and it seems that came from the British period. It's difficult to tell, but given the lack of influence of American English anywhere on the African continent, it's probably British English.

Not sure why Canadian English has been offered as a compromise when it's a non-sequitur in this context. And I say that both as a Canadian and a resident of the Greater Toronto Area! - Floydian ^τ _¢ 13:34, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

I can sympathise with your point about fleeting and ephemeral editors arbitrarily dictating the language flavour for years to come.

However my understanding is that is exactly what our current policy at MOS:ENGVAR dictates where there are not strong national ties to a particular flavour. Do you think I have misunderstood our current policy or are you merely opining that our policy should be changed?

If the latter, then what criteria do you suggest we use for distinguishing between "fly-by edit"s and the other varieties? BushelCandle (talk) 05:36, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

I tend to give more regard on the first paragraph of MOS:RETAIN personally, as well as the first half of the sentence you referenced earlier: "When an English variety's consistent usage has been established in an article, maintain it in the absence of consensus to the contrary. ... When no English variety has been established and discussion does not resolve the issue ..." (emphasis mine). I generally browse through the earliest significant edits and see what stuck and what didn't. That said, the date format of Month day, year was established by the initial edits of User:Cerberon-900 and numerous editors thereafter, then changed to DMY by a fly-by script edit.[1] Up until then, "fuelled" is the only source of English variation and had been there for several dozen edits. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 14:50, 10 April 2021 (UTC)

Renamed from Tigray conflict

Wasn't this named tigray conflict? What caused change? Was the war declared or something else? Bokoharamwatch (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

See Talk:Tigray_War/Archive_2#Requested_move_2_January_2021_(closed) - Floydian ^τ _¢ 19:48, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

The map is confusing!

Hello, in the territorial control map, can you make Amhara forces conbined with ENDF troops? Also, the map is updated every few months, update more often. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:248:681:25a0:211d:755c:f8fc:3d49 (talk • contribs) 02:58, 11 April 2021 (UTC)

Planning on updating the map for easier use, but I think its best Amhara is kept separate from ENDF as a lot of it is autonomous movement. Also, updating these maps are difficult, much of the information is vague and unclear. and we are all volunteers so I doubt we could have perfect updates. Flalf^Talk 13:35, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

Updating the map

Hello! It is almost May already, I think that we should add a updated map. Also, please include military engagements of this war in Current Events Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki150017281 (talk • contribs)

Requested move 22 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus Flalf^Talk 17:40, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

---

Tigray War → War in Tigray – WP:COMMONNAME, gets more hits on google search and has more frequent use in media. Flalf^Talk 13:47, 22 April 2021 (UTC)—Relisted. 2pou (talk) 15:45, 14 May 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose because Tigray War sounds more correct in my opinion Mausebru (talk) 13:57, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Tigray war, as a place name + a war sounds incorrect to a native English speaker in the most unhelpful way for me, and is not liking a name sound a better reason to oppose? Policy over preference. Flalf^Talk 14:18, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose "Name of Region" War seems to be that standard for then civil conflicts. Such as Algerian War, Rif War, or First/Second Chechen war. ReiPeixe (talk) 12:47, 9 May 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose How many of those sources are saying "War in Tigray" as the name of the war and not just saying their talking about the war in Tigray. For example I get more hits on a google search for "War in Syria" and "War in Yemen" but a lot of the articles refer to it as the Syrian/Yemeni civil war. Also, I agree, Tigray War sounds better. Sorry if I explained my argument badly. Wowzers122 (talk) 19:28, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

No, your explanation was lucid and made perfect sense to me, Wowzers122. --BushelCandle 09:15, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

You have a point, but I also think that RS never use Tigray war and do use War in Tigray, and it makes sense to adopt the name that is actually used by the media. Flalf^Talk 14:26, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. A perusal of the sources in the article reveal that there is no common name for this conflict. Therefore, we should be defaulting to some generic name, such as this article's previous title – "Tigray conflict". I am open to further "generic name" suggestions. While it is tempting for convenience purposes, Wikipedia should not make up proper names, and it is wrong for us to coin proper names like "Tigray War". — Goszei (talk) 02:01, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

I would like to remind editors of similar naming acrimonies that have taken place at Syrian civil war and 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war, which concern this exact matter: the coining of proper names not widely used in RS. — Goszei (talk) 02:05, 25 April 2021 (UTC)

@Goszei: I agree, we either revert to conflict, or we use War in Tigray. 'Tigray war' by itself is practically never used by RS. Flalf^Talk 14:25, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Comment If this page is moved to "War in Tigray", it should be made very clear that this isn't a proper name (and so should appear as "war in Tigray" where title case isn't needed). I must say that titles like "Timeline of the war in Tigray" look weird though, and so I back Tigray conflict (precedent for this naming scheme includes Metekel conflict, Kivu conflict, Ituri conflict). — Goszei (talk) 19:07, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support renaming in principle - The current title is a proper noun, which leads to the assumption that there is a conflict called the Tigray War. This doesn't appear to be the case based on reliable sources. In fact, it doesn't even seem to be referred to as a "war". A good parallel may be the Ukrainian crisis and the subsequent Annexation of Crimea by the Russian Federation. I have to agree with Goszei that either reverting to the previous title or choosing a similar generic description for the title is the ideal course of action. - Floydian ^τ _¢ 19:51, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support- I support this, because a lot of articles have names like War In Afganistan. And, it sounds better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki150017281 (talk • contribs)

• Support per the argument that we do not want to impose a proper noun on a conflict with no name that is universally used yet. The result of this discussion should in no way be construed as a consensus on the name of this conflict, and leave no prejudice to renaming this article (again) once such a name emerges in reliable sources. Mottezen (talk) 18:29, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support per existing conensus @ War in Afghanistan, War in Iraq (2013–2017), etc. happened across this discussion via an article draft - Agree re: not imposing a proper noun on a developing conflict. The sources generally use 'War in Tigray', and so should we. -- a ^{they/them | argue | contribs} 11:50, 2 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes, we know, but not many people refer thses wars, mainly the one in Iraq. Many people, including some foreign officials, refer it differently. Same as to here in Tigray. Mausebru (talk) 14:41, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose not without a date attached. There've been many wars in Tigray, this is just one of them -- 67.70.27.180 (talk) 23:10, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose Though the fighting is mostly in Tigray, there has been spill over’s so I think it’s best to for the article to remain as ‘Tigray War’.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Eritrean Withdrawal

The Eritrean Withdrawal has not been confirmed yet.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki150017281 (talk • contribs) 03:56, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Garowe Online is not an accurate and a reliable source

Garowe Online has been proven to be fake and spread nothing but fake news and there isn’t a single Somali troop/soldier fighting for ENDF in the Tigray conflict.

It wouldn’t make sense for Somalia to support when Somalia has it’s own conflict. YaBoyTPoo (talk) 06:02, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

Photo-only Tigray War article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Hello! Someone seems to have created a page called The Tigray War in photos. I do not think this is with Wikipedia policy, please delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wiki150017281 (talk • contribs) 21:13, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Battalion/Division numbers

Hello! The sidebar says that there are "42 Divisions" of Eritrean troops. "How many troops are in one division?", one may say. Another thing to add to the sidebar is the estimate of TPLF troops. If you are going to say something like "23 Battalions", say how many troops are in a battalion. --~~Hello!765678765~~ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hello!765678765 (talk • contribs) 21:43, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Introducing the belligerents

On 10 March 2021 this thread was archived here by ClueBot III but it is still relevant. Just now I've corrected again the grammar of the introduction of the belligerents. Mebden (talk) 13:34, 14 June 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2021

I would like to add information concerning the recent murder of three MSF workers during this conflict. Althehistorian (talk) 08:44, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:35, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Added.--Carneadesofcyrene (talk) 12:28, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Large TPLF advances recently

TPLF/TDF forces have recently took back Mekelle and surrounding cities, and Eritrean forces are withdrawing. We need an update to the map, also, why not merge Ethiopian forces with Amhara forces because Amhara is a region of Ethiopia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Usa1285980287 (talk • contribs) 18:09, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Lalibela captured by TDF

The historical heritage site Lalibela has just been captured by the TDF (Sources: [2], [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]. Lalibela and its surroundings should be marked as under Tigrayan control. Dabaqabad (talk) 18:09, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

Am afraid the mapper cannot follow this on a daily base. There are other locations that changed hands, for instance west of Addi Arkay... I would suggest even that for an encyclopaedia a monthly update of maps would be sufficient.Rastakwere (talk) 18:59, 6 August 2021 (UTC)

@Rastakwere: Makes sense, my apologies. Dabaqabad (talk) 00:58, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Agew/Agaw Liberation Front

I've been prowling the net to find sources for the Agew/Agaw Liberation Front. They did issue a statement on their Facebook page in response to Samantha Power's own statement on 4 August 2021 which explicitly says they are allied with the TDF. However, the only source I could find was a WordPress relaying said statement. ([8]) Since it is WordPress I'd like an opinion if anyone else feels this is a good source or not.

After the ALF released their statement Twitter analysts of the conflict have been paying more attention to them. ([9][10][11])

I feel they deserve inclusion in the infobox but I agree it needs a good source. If anybody feels WordPress will not work then I hope we can find a better source otherwise I hope we can reach a consensus on this.

Cheers. ProjectHorizons (talk) 05:56, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

I'm perfectly fine with using the WordPress source to cite the Agew Liberation Front as a belligerent in the war. Wowzers122 (talk) 07:17, 7 August 2021 (UTC)

Destroyed and Damaged Heritage Sites

Multiple heritage sites have been damaged during the war. Lalibela's occupation has been widely publicized, probably because it's a popular site with "western" powers, but other sites critical for Ethiopian history (such as Debre Damo monestary & Al-Nejashi mosque) have been destroyed or damaged.

Then, I suggest that you make a section about this and populate it.Rastakwere (talk) 06:28, 10 August 2021 (UTC)