Talk:Timothy Dalton/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Nationality

Born to an ENGLISH father and to an American mother of English and Italian decent. My cards are on him being English, not Welsh. He lived in Wales for the first 3 years of his life only because his parents moved there to escape the bombings closer to London. He was English educated as well. This is precisely why Wikipedia should be banned, far too many people letting their own nationalistic fervour out not to mention a harbour for misinformation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.66.131.51 (talk) 11:00, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Born to an English father and to an AMERICAN mother as well! Nationalistic fervour or not, he is also an American citizen by birth, and has always retained his American citizenship (this came in handy for him, as he was able to work in films in both U.K. and the U.S. without any problems related to getting a working visa). He presently resides most of the time in the U.S., but since I have no knowledge of him actually making any comments about his citizenship, I have not added him as an 'American actor' or anything else, but you could do so, and be correct. (75.69.241.91 (talk) 04:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC))
Quote:"My cards are on him being English" Oh! Your cards are? Well then, I guess that trumps actual facts and reality. "Nationalistic fervour" has nothing to do with this (although it seems to be it plays a pivotal part in your angry sounding post.) And just what "misinformation" are you writing about? He is a dual citizen of the United Kingdom and of the

United States of America. He was born in Wales to non Welsh parents.(24.62.126.170 (talk) 21:05, 18 April 2010 (UTC))

Well yes. The article labels him as Welsh. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.147.109.182 (talk) 21:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Birth year: 1946

Dalton was born in 1946. Theres a lot of misinformation on this on the Internet (including IMDb) that claims 1944, but it is wrong. See CommanderBond.net, Dalton's authorised website, The Ian Fleming Foundation, MI6.co.uk, Universal Exports, The James Bond International Fan Club, The BBC. I can go on and on here. K1Bond007 04:25, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm not completely convinced. We're only going by which websites say what - nothing exactly concrete. I suspect that 1944 may indeed be correct, as a lot of actors aren't completely honest about their age.--Fallout boy 12:04, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
Dalton did fudge his age. He claimed 1944, but he was born in 1946. I'm sorry, but I doubt the people that known Dalton best are wrong here. K1Bond007 19:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

1944 sounds more believable as that would make him 42 in "The Living Daylights" and 44 in "Licence to Kill", but then Dalton was a heavy smoker which may have caused him to look older. I would be surprised if the well-respected Internet Movie Database got it wrong. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.93.21.72 (talk • contribs) .

IMDb is wrong all the time. The information on that site can be added by anyone just like Wikipedia. IMDb just has a check in place so that blatant vandalism never happens. Case and point: [1], IMDb lists Michaël Youn as being in Casino Royale. He's not in the film. It also obviously lists Sebastien Foucan twice for two different spellings of his character's name. K1Bond007 20:30, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

IMDb is not "just like Wikipedia". Their information is reviewed and requires sourcing before addition. As for Michaël Youn, he isn't in the credits.--Fallout boy 03:57, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
You mean like the sources I just gave you? Anyone can add information, but yeah you're right it gets reviewed, but that doesn't mean the reviewer knows anything either. Don't begin to think that IMDb is infallible. When I made that point about Youn, they were listing him. They also previously listed Michael Giacchino as the composer for the same film a while back and didn't even list Paul Haggis who has been known since 2005 until maybe a couple weeks ago. Look at IMDb: "Staff members gauge the validity of contributed data based on the past reliability of the contributor, as none are themselves experts in all of the significantly varied areas of film history to know what is valid themselves. Given the volume of submissions and the number of volunteers who submit information, it's little wonder that errors abound." -- Even in this interview Dalton claims he was 15 or 16 in 1962. You do the maths. K1Bond007 06:46, 19 April 2006 (UTC)
I never meant to imply that I thought IMDb is infallible, but of all the databases I use I almost never see birthdates there that I am certain are wrong. I checked on of the bonus features on The Living Daylights, and he said in an interview that he thought he was too young at 24 in 1968 to play James Bond. As for Pierce, as far as I can tell 1953 is correct, it even says that on his official site (that doesn't make it an undisputable fact, by lying about his age on such a visible place is unlikely).--Fallout boy 23:27, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for clearing up the Dalton age controversy. There have been many celebrities who have knocked a year off their age (Bing Crosby, Charlton Heston etc), but it makes you wonder why somebody would add two years on!

Because the misinformation about Dalton's birth year seems to be extremely pervasive around the Internet (and, I have noted, it has been incorrectly cited in places elsewhere on Wikipedia), I thought it was worth including the briefest of notes, in the main body of the article, not just in the footnote. Your mileage may vary. --A user.

I have just scanned the birth indexes for England and Wales and his birth does not appear anywhere. This means he was either not registered or was not born in England or Wales! --Anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.105.95.150 (talk) 09:32, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

Marital status

I am not sure how to source something that is simply background information and probably shouldn't be included in the actual article; but, as someone recently added "wife" to "Oksana Grigorieva," which I edited out, I thought I would put down here the sourcing for the information that Dalton is not married to her. Source of information is a 24 February 2007 interview with him (Daniel Craig doesn't know what he's in for, by Rebecca Hardy) in the London Daily Mail, which says: "Despite reports to the contrary, Dalton remains unmarried." I think that should settle it. 24.58.169.119 02:55, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Endured?

I changed the line "endured the task of playing Rhett Butler" to simply "played Rhett Butler". Dalton was paid five million dollars for that assignment, so it was hardly a matter of endurance, regardless of the reviews.

Licence To Kill revenue losses

Would it be possible for the person who stated that Licence to Kill had lost $22 to cite their source. Allow me to stress that I've read such an article somewhere before so I'm not disputing the validity of the statement. Isn't it odd, however, that a film that cost $36m and grossed $156m at the theatrical box-office made a loss of $22m. Even when you consider that a studio only recovers 40-50% of box office takings (which, in LTK's case, would be $70m-$80m) its still preposterous to think that only $14m of that found its way back to the studio. Even if it did, you can hardly blame Timothy Dalton - its not his fault that only $14m of a $156m+ gross ends up in the hands of the financiers.

The Living Daylights cost $30m and grossed $191m. So, again, how could that make a loss? Given that the Dalton bond films actually grossed a better percentage of their budget than the Brosnan films (ie $191m is over 6 time of $30m - no Brosnan film has grossed 6 times its budget), I find it hard to believe that the Dalton films made losses and the Brosnan ones didn't.

As I said, I've read such assertions before. I just find it very hard to believe. Does anyone else? In light of my argument, wouldn't it be possible for the article to dispute the assertions made? Dar2020 00:01, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Opinions vs. facts

Re the following line in the text: Film critics and fans of Fleming's original novels welcomed a more serious interpretation after more than a decade of Moore's approach.[8] Do we really need (a) an opinion here which is hard to factually quantify, and moreover, to (b) have it be sourced to someone's fan site? Personally speaking, I welcomed it too, but that's just my opinion, and not quantifiable and doesn't belong in the article, in my opinion. Will seek further feedback on this here before going ahead and trimming it. 24.58.169.119 03:10, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Opinions should not be found in an ecyclopedia. But it happens. Refering to fan sites is a big no no.--Puppy Zwolle (Puppy) 20:19, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Ascending desending lists

Maybe my lack of knowlwedge but it look weird that the filmography and the theater work listing do not follow the same template. Shouldn't both be the same order: starting with the oldest work and ending with the newest?--Puppy Zwolle (Puppy) 20:16, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Nationality

Part Italian?

in many sites, there is written he is part Italian, but I don't know if it's true or not...

Welsh AND English?

Gah. Sorry all, I've just made a change and only after pressing save did I notice the HTML comment (out of place at the top of the infobox) about Englishness. But, having apologised, I actually think it's much better to just say "Welsh-born British" because "Welsh-born English" is inherently confusing. – Kieran T (talk | contribs) 16:38, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention that he's an American as well, through his mother. ProhibitOnions (T) 17:28, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
He's a British citizen, as such, he can freely live in Wales or England, so it's a bit strange to call him Welsh-born English. What if he decided to move back to Wales? He'd stop being English? Regardless, why not just say he's a British actor who was born in Wales? Oh, and his mother was an American, but he isn't. -24.149.193.49 (talk) 18:09, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Quote:" Oh, and his mother was an American, but he isn't" Yes he is American. He is an American citizen by birth. Where are you getting the idea that he is not an American citizen, given that facts don't support that? He was not raised as an American, nor did he grow up in America, but he is a citizen and always has been. Again, where are you getting your "information"? (24.62.126.170 (talk) 21:09, 18 April 2010 (UTC))

If Dalton was born in Wales and spent the first four years of his life there that makes him Welsh, whether he thinks of himself as Welsh or not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.145.240.148 (talk) 23:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Some people will think the fact that Timothy Dalton was born in Wales and spent the first half-decade of his life in that country makes him Welsh. Others will think the fact that he moved to England before his fourth birthday means he must have become English by the time he reached adulthood. You could make a perfectly reasonable argument either way. There is no absolute rule that governs these things. Like Timothy Dalton, Monty Python’s Terry Jones was born in Colwyn Bay. Although he moved to England aged four-and-half, he has always felt “100% Welsh”. Tony Blair, on the other hand, was born in Scotland and only moved to England when he went to university aged 18: yet he has publicly stated that he regards himself as English.
In the eyes of the law, there is no such thing as English, Welsh, Scottish or Northern Irish nationality – only British citizenship. If Dalton had been an international-class footballer, he would have been eligible to play for Wales (land of his birth), England (land of his father) or the U.S.A. (land of his mother). Ryan Giggs, on the other hand, although he moved to England aged seven and speaks with a Manchester accent, was not eligible to play for England because neither he, his parents, nor any of his grandparents were born there. As far as international football is concerned, living in England from a young age and speaking with an English accent has not made Giggs an Englishman any more than living his entire life up to the age of 16 in Wales except for being born in Chester has made Michael Owen a Welshman.
The point is, there are no objective criteria for determining how Welsh or English someone with Timothy Dalton’s background really is. Any judgement made on the matter would be a subjective opinion and Wikipedia Policy absoloutely forbids personal opinions being presented in articles as if they were facts. Stating that Dalton is "a Welsh actor" or "an English actor" in the introduction is definitely presenting an opinion as if it were an indisputable fact.
The only fact that we know about Timothy Dalton’s nationality is that he is legally a British citizen. I think the most sensible solution is to give Dalton his legal nationality in the intro and leave the reader to make up their own mind about how English or Welsh he is according to the facts presented in the main text. In other words, we should stick to presenting the facts: not try to tell the reader what to think about them.
Conval 11:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
He's obviously British, as he was born in Britain. It just so happens that he was born in Wales. So he's Welsh AND British. I suppose he's Welsh, English AND American, too. Could someone please change the opening blurb to reflect his Britishness. Peesemould (talk) 20:30, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Quote:"The only fact that we know about Timothy Dalton’s nationality is that he is legally a British citizen."

How is that the "only fact" when we know that he is an American citizen by birth through his mother?

Quote:"the most sensible solution is to give Dalton his legal nationality in the intro"

By that token you should note that he is American as well (which I don't actually think should be noted unless Dalton himself comments on it). I don't believe Conval deals with facts. (24.62.126.170 (talk) 03:26, 2 July 2010 (UTC))

He seems to think he's Welsh!

The online version of an article from Prevue Magazine in 1987, “Introducing Timothy Dalton" by Glenn Fuller, contains the following quotation from Timothy:
"Richard Burton was Welsh; Tom Jones is Welsh, and we Welshmen like to think of ourselves as heroes - on screen and off!"
This article is to be found at http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Film/7518/Bond_Eng/Bond_Eng.htm There are several other articles before it on the page, so you have to scroll well down in order to get to it.
Flonto 18:27, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Website unavailable

Mr. Dalton's official website, linked in the Infobox, has now been unavailable for at least a couple of months. If it does not re-appear within a reasonable time-period, it will have to be deleted from this article. 81.145.242.119 (talk) 12:31, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

The picture of him in License to kill

Okay, some asshole got rid of his picture. That is total nonsense and someone needs to do something about it. Footballfan190 (talk) 08:19, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Image

Can someone add a free image of Dalton available in Commons? David Pro (talk) 13:48, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I've proposed this image to be copied to Commons given that in Commons there aren't pics of him. David Pro (talk) 14:08, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Mainly theatre actor

Sincere apologies if I am doing this wrong, but the section on "Early Life and Career" confuses me. It states (beginning of second paragraph) that Dalton took time off in 1971 and did mostly theatre work thereafter until 1978, the single exception being the 1975 film "Permission to Kill". However, Dalton had a pivotal role as Henry Stuart, Lord Darnley, in the 1972 film "Mary, Queen of Scots", and is better remembered in that role than for the 1975 work. Thank you for your kind review. Ellendare (talk) 20:59, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

If it is wrong, please fix it. And if you would be so kind, add a reference or two for it. IP4240207xx (talk) 03:02, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Doctor Who?

As the page stands now, Timothy is listed as being the next in line for playing the role of the Master on Doctor Who. Does anyone have a source for this? The BBC is notoriously tight lipped about casting for this series, so I would be skeptical that they would declare something like this so far in advance. Still, if there is a reliable source for this I'd love to see it. Monkey Bounce (talk) 22:34, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

As seen in a screencap from RTD's leaving video, Timothy Dalton is dressed in Time Lord apparel alongside David Tennant and current Master (probably until the New Year's episode), John Simm: io9. 80.177.217.162 (talk) 15:45, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Interview source

This is a fan site that apparently lists and references several interviews. If someone can find and cite the interviews at their original source, they'd make several great additions to this article and the corresponding Bond movie articles. ZeaLitY [ DREAM - REFLECT ] 21:09, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Welsh not English

timothy dalton is welsh not engish he was born in colwyn bay wales so he is not english. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.183.140.16 (talk) 10:52, 27 July 2009 (UTC)

Already under discussion further up the page. magnius (talk) 11:04, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
Dalton considers himself to be a Welshman. [2] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.21.238.157 (talk) 18:51, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

Dalton over Brosnan facts

Can someone verify the details regarding the choice of Dalton over Brosnan in 1986? I'm sure it different. As I recall, it was not NBC that forced Brosnan to rescind the offer to take over James Bond role, rather, it was Broccoli that withdrew it. Remington Steele was initially slated for cancellation in 1986 by NBC and Brosnan was free to take the Bond role which he initially did. But his contract with NBC stipulated that if Remington Steele was renewed, Brosnan would be required to film a minimum 17 episodes. When NBC heard that Brosnan accepted the Bond role, it then reversed its decision and re-instated Remington Steele believing Brosnan's new image would boost the show's ratings. NBC was willing to accommodate EON to ensure Brosnan completed the next Bond film before returning to finish his commitment to Remington Steele. Broccoli was opposed to this idea as he felt Brosnan return to TV would hurt his new image as Bond. NBC and EON negotiated at length but when no agreeable solution could be found, Broccoli dumped Brosnan and went with Dalton. That's how I recall the events. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Almcneilcan (talk • contribs) 03:51, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Here's a link to a bio outlining what I recalled http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0000112/bio —Preceding unsigned comment added by Almcneilcan (talk • contribs) 04:01, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Infobox

Although Dalton's role as Bond is very well-known, is the infobox detailing him as the 4th Bond really necessary? He is notable for much more than just the Bond films and I think the infobox may place undue emphasis on that role. Nev1 (talk) 18:50, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Pictures

Seen as there are no pictures of him on this, can we not use the one of him as Alexei Volkoff, seen as that's relatively recent and is on the "Alexei Volkoff" page? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.13.123.102 (talk) 12:15, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

British

Calling him welsh just because he was born there, is ridiculous. He spent most of his life in England, therefore he is culturally English, as well as having an English father. The best description would be British actor, or 'British actor of Film and television, born in Wales'.Voucherman (talk) 12:25, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

From discussion higher up this page there seems to have been verifiable evidence that he identifies as Welsh (as well as, obviously, being born in Wales). Unfortunately those sites are now dead. Is there any other evidence to that effect? Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:42, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Articles like this are ruined by nationalists, despite where he was born clearly being nothing more than an accident of birth (no Welsh parents, family moved back to England as soon as work there was finished, went to primary and secondary school in England, not lived in Wales since etc), and no references they repeatedly try and describe Dalton as being Welsh. If you go through the edit history over the past few years, you will find there is an inteview that is no longer online (possibly from a now defunct official website) where he described himself as an English actor, but was predictable soon removed. Slightly more reliable than some jokey quote from the bloody 80's. This behaviour is similar to Irish editors who regularly target articles on English subjects with Irish connection putting fake birth details. 92.5.56.37 (talk) 15:00, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Please read WP:NPA - comment on the edits, not the editors. He is certainly British by citizenship (as well as US apparently, per discussion above). He apparently also has self-identified as Welsh, though we don't seem to have a current source for that. We apparently don't have any evidence that he identifies, or has identified, as English. Basically, anything other than "British" needs sources in which he defines himself as one nationality or another (or, quite conceivably, both). Ghmyrtle (talk) 15:42, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Birth Place

I have corrected the birth place to Chesterfield. There are no birth records for a Timothy or Tim Dalton in 1946 anywhere in England or Wales. However, there is a Peter Dalton (clearly his birth name wasn't Timothy, but Peter which has been incorrectly been used as his middle name) who's birth was recorded in 1946 in Chesterfield, Derbyshire where he grew up. Moneysuch8 (talk) 16:20, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Nationality

To the rather dreary IP editor who changes this every day, please understand the following, if your Cro-Magnon brain can cope with this: Dalton is not Welsh. Being born in Wales doesn't make him Welsh, just like Christian Bale. It's rather tedious having to revert you constantly, but I'll keep on doing it until I get the article locked down to IP editors, which isn't a step I really want to take. You're an embarrassment to your nation. - SchroCat (^ • @) 19:42, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Just so this sinks in, please read the following carefully. It is from Dalton's own website: "TIMOTHY DALTON, born in 1944 at Colwyn Bay, North Wales, is a British stage, film and TV actor." Please note the word British, not Welsh, or English, or Outer Mongolian, but British. - SchroCat (^ • @) 19:54, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

As we now know, the website is a fan site, not Dalton's own. If we have a choice between "British" or "Welsh", I favour "British" - the facts I set out below support this designation. The tipping point for me is that Dalton's father is English and his mother is Irish-Italian-American. I hardly think anyone can have genuine ties to a country when he moved away at age four. Further, we don't discuss the French-Canadian novelist Saul Bellow, Sex and the City's British star Kim Cattrall or the Panamanian senator and 2008 U.S. Presidential candidate John McCain. An interview (unknown date) says, "Although born in Wales, he is quick to point out that he is mixture of Italian, Irish and English. His father moved the family to Manchester in the late 40's." This online interview in the 13 November 1994 "The Post and Courier" (Parade Magazine) says on page 24, "Timothy Dalton was born in Wales, but points out, I'm not Welsh. I'm an odd mix - Italian, British, Irish." So British he is. (Unfortunately the article claims that he was born in 1944.) Despite this, Dalton was quoted in 1987 as saying, "Richard Burton was Welsh; Tom Jones is Welsh, and we Welshmen like to think of ourselves as heroes - on screen and off!" ("Introducing Timothy Dalton", by Glenn Fuller, Prevue Magazine 1987) WikiQuote identifies him as a "Welsh-born British actor of stage and screen." - Fanthrillers (talk) 21:41, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
British = from the Island of Great Britain. There NO one can argue against that. --Τασουλα (talk) 21:39, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Post Bond career

Please add to the end of the section Post Bond career.

One of Timothy Dalton's most recent roles was a voice-acting role on the recent Tinkerbell movie simply titled Secret of the Wings, where he starred as Lord Milori, ruler of the Winter Forest &, though few knew it, on-time boyfriend of Pixie Hollow's Queen Clarion until the day he disregarded the danger & crossed the border where the too-warm weather broke his wing. This led to Queen Clarion declaring that no fairy should be allowed to cross the border, and Lord Milori agreed to enforce it. Sonicking2004 (talk) 18:05, 26 March 2013 (UTC)

Not done: we don't even try and list all Dalton's works here, so adding another voiceover seems redundant. We do have the article Timothy Dalton on stage and screen which deos list all his roles, and the Tinkerbell film is already listed there. - SchroCat (talk) 20:36, 26 March 2013 (UTC)
Agree per SchroCat. - Fantr (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

I'd want to know how to fix a cite note on Rebecca Hardy article in Dalton reference list. The note states need to include the retrieval or access date for inclusion in reference which the date is May 19, 2012 but I'm having trouble figuring out how to fix correctly. The access date is in the edit notes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LadyDragon42 (talk • contribs) 06:50, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi DL, All sorted. As its a newspaper with a dated article, it doesn't need an Access date on there, which should only be used for online sources. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 08:34, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Mother's background

Internet sources usually describe his mother (born Dorothy Scholes) as an American of Italian and Irish descent. Is there any evidence that this is true, or that Dalton himself has ever said so? The claims all seem to copy each other, and it's unclear where this statement originated from. All Hallow's Wraith (talk) 00:45, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Year of birth and father's surname

Two different discussions exist:

Several sources claim that his father's name is Peter Dalton Leggett, born 16 September 1916 in Chorlton Lancashire. Leggett appears to be the family name, Dalton a middle name. (His parents were Albert Joseph Leggett and Amelia Vokes Hodgkiss.) Peter Dalton Leggett married Dorothy Scholes in Manchester Lancashire, June 1941.

The following British birth records exist:

  • Leggett Timothy L D 1946 Aled Denbighshire
  • Leggett Annabelle D 1949 Aled Denbighshire
  • Leggett Stephen W 1952 Aled Denbighshire

The mother's maiden name for all three is "Scholes".

Aled, Denbighshire and Colwyn Bay are all close together in North Wales.

A 1970 interview says Dalton is 24. Despite what the wiki article claims, timothydalton.info appears to be a fan site, not an official site. - Fanthrillers (talk) 00:48, 17 July 2012 (UTC)

Interestingly, The Lion in Winter souvenir press book (1968) says "As a newcomer to films, Timothy Dalton may need an introduction, but probably not for long. Only 22, he is already regarded as one of the freshest young talents in the talent-rich British theatre." - Fanthrillers (talk) 23:54, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
So obviously Timothy Dalton was born in 1946! So why don't the moderators change it to 1946 instead of leaving it as a debate? This is ridiculous. Why not just unlock the article so people can get things done?--174.102.42.226 (talk) 22:34, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
We can't change it to 1946 because reliable sources exist claiming he was born in 1944. We won't unlock the article because it will lead to needless edit wars, primarily by IP editors who never seem to follow the rules. - Fantr (talk) 00:17, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

It is 1946 I think. I say this because he was 22 when the Bond producers for OHMSS were scouting for a new Bond in 1968 and he turned it down for being too young.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:18, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

The problem is that Dalton has fudged the issue himself. We have a number of reliable sources that point to both dates and we can't select one over the other. This is a slightly messy solution, but is does satisfy the BLP requirements and covers us against edit warring from IPs etc. - SchroCat (talk) 17:31, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

This is a similar case to Dolph Lundgren who has also fudged his birthdate on occasions and it's 1957 not 1959. All the evidence points to Dalton's birthdate being 1946, not 1944. I think it's best dealt with with a footnote. He was definitely 22 at the time of the Bond scouting otherwise Schrod if you insist on keeping this as it is you'll have to change all of your other Bond articles which mention Dalton was only 22 at the time of the casting :-]. Most sources state 1946 and they're correct. I think the best way to deal with this is assume the Bond producers are correct and that he was 22 when he turned down Bond in 1968 and run with 1946 but add a footnote saying that Dalton and several sources have claimed 1944 too. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:34, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

There's a massive amount say 1944 too, and we really don't have a clue which is correct! As to the others main articles - James Bond filmography#Timothy Dalton: 1986–94 has both ages in there, because we just can't be sure which is correct. - SchroCat (talk) 17:43, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Strong evidence points to 1946 though doesn't it given that he was reported to be 22 in 1968 when he turned down Bond. If not a removal of 1944, perhaps a footnote at least stating he was reportedly 22 when he turned down Bond in 1968? The article states he left school in 1964, seriously who leaves school at 20? He did say in a 1987 interview though ""Originally I did not want to take over from Sean Connery. He was far too good, he was wonderful. I was about 24 or 25, which is too young. But when you've seen Bond from the beginning, you don't take over from Sean Connery." I don't know why he would claim to be older than he really was! OK, given that he claimed to be 24 or 25 at the time.♦ Dr. Blofeld 17:46, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, it's all a problem: the records are not entirely clear, and he's clouded the argument himself with what he's said (although that could just be down to a faulty memory). - SchroCat (talk) 18:03, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Meh, he caused the messy problem so his article should reflect it. It's pretty embarrassing though for an encyclopedia on a living person as famous as Dalton to not have the year confirmed but it isn't our fault, it's his! Perhaps somebody should try to contact Dalton?♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:09, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

If he had an internet site I've have dropped him a line to get him to flag it up on an official website, but he doesn't even stetch to that! - SchroCat (talk) 18:18, 23 December 2013 (UTC)
Since Dalton said he was 24 in 1968 he must have been born in 1944. A 22-year-old would never have been considered to play James Bond. (92.11.196.197 (talk) 16:13, 1 June 2014 (UTC))
He's also given indications of other dates too, so it's not really enough to accept that one interview as the absolute truth. As to the Bond issue, there is no reason why they wouldn't have considered him (no more than not considering a 24 year old), and it's not enough evidence to go against the number of reliable sources that we have. With no single definitive date, we have to reflect what the reliable sources say, and they give two dates: we only exist to reflect the reliable sources, not establish "truth", and that's what we've done here. - SchroCat (talk) 16:26, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Can't Wikipedia simply go by birth records? He was born in Wales which means he has to be in the England & Wales Birth Index, the microfiche of which can be viewed in the local history section of many large libraries. The Index gives the surname, forename, middle initials, mother's maiden name and registration district that the birth was recorded in. If it's correct that his father was Peter Leggett and his mother Dorothy Scholes, then there's only one Timothy in the whole of the 1940s that matches, and that's the one born in 1946 as offered by the member, Fanthrillers, above. Colwyn Bay was a sub-district of Aled in 1946. I can only assume people who are saying it's impossible to know his age don't know this index exists and that it can be seen by the public. The only two ways that the 1946 entry can't be him is if his parents aren't Peter and Dorothy, or his real name isn't Timothy. Does anyone know either of these two things to be true? Analog Kid (talk) 20:48, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

See the top of this thread as to why the records are confused, and look at the two previous threads too. Because there is confusion, we go with the reliable sources with the two dates. — SchroCat (talk) 20:57, 7 September 2014 (UTC)
I've looked at the previous two threads. The first one goes on and on about the IMDb, the only time it mentions the Birth Index is right at the end when someone says they can't find him anywhere. Well that's true, they won't if they look under the name Timothy Dalton. That's why he must have been born with a different name. The second thread postulates that he's the Peter Dalton born in Chesterfield, 1946, seemingly based off the fact that he grew up in Derbyshire. Let's examine that. The mother's maiden name on that entry is Kidger, so for that to be him, his parents would have to be Herbert Dalton and Emily Kidger (the only Dalton-Kidger marriage). Note that this birth was registered in the third quarter, July to September, which would be unusual for someone born in March, unless his parents were willing to pay the late registration fine. So are Timothy's parents Herbert and Emily?
There shouldn't really be confusion. Birth records trump fansites or even the IMDb as an information resource (or should do). Even actors themselves aren't necessarily 100% reliable as they could lie about their age or simply misremember something from a long time ago. That's why we go to official records, made at the time. Analog Kid (talk) 15:13, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
There shouldn't confusion, but there is. The official records are not clear, so we rely on the secondary sources, which have both dates. There's also WP:PSTS to consider, which stresses "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources". Until there is more clarity on this than there is at present, the situation really shouldn't be changed, especially based on the questionable primary sources in this case. - SchroCat (talk) 15:30, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Could you explain why official records are thought of as not clear? I'm not trying to be difficult or a troll, I'm simply trying to understand where the confusion/problem is stemming from. Do we know who Timothy's parents are? If not, then I would agree that there's a big question-mark. If we do, then finding any children of those parents is relatively easy. Analog Kid (talk) 16:04, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
As I have already explained, it's partly because the official records are not clear. The opening paragraph of this thread by Fantr makes that rather clear. Secondly, Wikipedia will always prefer secondary sources to primary, and those sources show two dates: we don't just pick one because we prefer the look of it. - SchroCat (talk) 16:09, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Again, please don't take this the wrong way. Yes, I know that you said that they're not clear, but I did ask why that determination was made. I ask because the opening message in this thread does not make that case. If Timothy's parents are who Fanthrillers said they are, then the 1946 entry is him. It's not a matter of picking one we prefer the look of, as there have been no other Leggett-Scholes marriages in England or Wales to confuse the issue. If this information about his parents names is uncertain though, then I would agree with the position you've outlined.
As regards secondary sources over primary ones, I'm afraid I don't get it. Secondary documents are open to the author's interpreretation which can be subjective. Aren't primary documents more reliable, hence the name? Analog Kid (talk) 17:03, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
No, primary sources are no way near more reliable. As I've already intend out to you, you need to read WP:PSTS which states "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources and, to a lesser extent, on tertiary sources and primary sources", as using primary sources comes a bit too close to WP:OR when there is no clarity. There is also the very strong WP:BLP policy that we need to adhere to, which ensures we rely on secondary sources. See WP:BLPPRIMARY. – SchroCat (talk) 17:15, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Why is there considered to be no clarity though? That's what I don't understand and no-one is explaining it. Why are documents produced by the General Register Office considered unreliable by Wikipedia, if that is indeed the case? I've been a family historian for ten years and found them to be very reliable. So what's given them the bad reputation on this site?
I'm sorry to be a bother on this, I'm just fussy about knowing the reasons why something is, rather than 'it is because it is'. Please don't be offended. Analog Kid (talk) 17:53, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
As an aside to this, I've noticed other pages on this site where the GRO records are cited as proof of birthyear. Is it a case that they shouldn't be and it just hasn't been noticed (and therefore deleted) on those pages? Analog Kid (talk) 17:58, 9 September 2014 (UTC)
Another aside (apologies for the bad etiquette of replying to myself): I've looked at the WP:NOR page and it says under Policy, "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." Anyone can look at the GRO records and determine what they mean, it doesn't need specialised knowledge, it just lists facts. Year, quarter, name, mother's maiden name, district of registration. Nothing difficult there, so it should be acceptable. However I'll wait for your response to my first reply above. There may be some reason I'm not aware of as to why it's not. Analog Kid (talk) 18:09, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not the GRO records per se, it's all primary sources. The reason is all explained in the links to the policies that I've already given you. What you need to appreciate is that our BRD policy pretty much trumps all other policies. In Dalton's case the connection isn't clear cut, so this makes it a problem. Added to that, if we have to use other sources to explain why the surname isn't Dalton, then we fail WP:SYNTHESIS. End of the day, we need cast iron sources for living people, and this will only come from secondary sources; with two dates from the reliable sources, that's what we show. Above all else we go for Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth, and that is doubly true for living people. – SchroCat (talk) 20:15, 9 September 2014 (UTC)

It does seem astonishing that this article can't include a definitive date of birth for a well-known contemporary British actor. Is there any other example of a famous living person from a developed country where Wikipedia editors have decided that a reliable age can't be determined? I understand Wikipedia's rules about primary sources and original research (or at least I acknowledge that they exist), but a date of birth shouldn't be a grey area which is open to interpretation, bias or point of view; it's just a simple fact, one of the simplest there can be. Surely these rules weren't intended to prevent a common-sense analysis of the UK's official birth records? It would be helpful to those of us who don't understand the problem to see a list of the evidence for and against each of the two dates, presented in simple terms. Eric Blatant (talk) 21:33, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

Bare links that need some attention

The following bare links need to be filled in by hand:

http://www.mi6.co.uk/sections/articles/bond_17_elements.php3?t=&s= Processing error (Fetching error)

http://www.mi6.co.uk/sections/articles/ge_roadtoproduction.php3 Processing error (Fetching error)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/news/latest/090728_news_o4 Processing error (HTTP Error: 404)

Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 01:47, 13 December 2015 (UTC)

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