Talk:Todor Panitsa

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Untitled[edit]

"after that he was sentenced as growed by unconscionable bargains" --translation please

Not in the category[edit]

He was born as far away from Macedonia as possible. --Laveol T 10:48, 11 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reliable sources[edit]

I tried to review recent edits introducing text sourced with content in Greek. The statements and sources looked dubious at first glance. I've requested help from an editor familiar with the matter (and fluent in Greek). His response is available here. Please, do not re-introduce the text without discussing it beforehand. Additionally, blogs are not considered reliable sources. Hence, I have removed them from the article. --Laveol T 08:09, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I also advise against misleading readers and other editors about sources. The ridiculous claim (or "claiming" as the editor put it) that Kosta Panitsa was from the region of Macedonia (given that he was born in Veliko Tarnovo) was supported with at least two sources that stated entirely different things. It seems like the editor intentionally used wording different from the original. Just a really telling example is the way the sentence Panitsa was court marshalled and executed, and action that Panitsa's followers and militant Macedonian nationalists were not going to forget turned into Panitsa's followers were militant Macedonian nationalists. Bear in mind that such distortion of sources is really depreciated. --Laveol T 08:24, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
But, as you can see, it's not a citation, but an interpretation. And it's not a misinterpretation, because it says "Panitsa's followers and militant Macedonian nationalists", not "Panitsa's followers and THE militant Macedonian nationalists", which means Panitsa's followers ARE the militant Macedonian nationalists, they are the same persons. Bobi987 Ivanov (talk) 18:28, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I really can't decide if you are generally misunderstanding the issue here or you just pretend to not understand it. How does the aforementioned statement, however you choose to interpret it, bear any reflection on the person's national/ethnic/whatever affiliation? If a militant Jihadist is a follower of Truman and his doctrine does this make Truman a militant Jihadist? --Laveol T 08:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And, one more thing. Ethnic origin has nothing to do with the territory where a person is born. Bobi987 Ivanov (talk) 18:33, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I find it particularly interesting that Bobi987 Ivanov should use the work of a notable Greek anti-communist and nationalist propagandist to support the "Macedonianness" of Panitsa, when Stavridis was actually employed and paid by the Greek government to campaign against the twin "Slavic-Communist threat" on Greek Macedonia. I mean, if you are going to use this book as a source, you do not cherry-pick what suits you and leave the rest, especially when the whole thrust of the book's argument in this section is a polemic against the KKE's and the Comintern's acceptance of the idea of an "autonomous Macedonia for the Macedonians" in the interwar period. Here's also what Stavridis has to say in page 216: "The Bulgarian government... seeing that Sandanski's successors, and Panitsa in particular did not have his [Sandanski's] leadership ability nor his education, tried to conquer the organization [IMRO] from within, enrolling many individuals dedicated to the idea of a Bulgarian conquest and annexation of Macedonia" etc, going on about the Bulgarian government providing funds and assistance to control the organization, or its accepting the autonomy of Macedonia only as a first step towards annexation, using IMRO as vehicle for its own ambitions. Ironically in the context of the present article, Stavridis then begins a discourse (cut off by the page end, but the drift is unmistakeable, it is standard Greek propaganda material on the issue) evidently aimed at refuting the existence of a "Macedonian" nation and the unalterable and fundamental "Greekness" of Macedonia... Granted, Panitsa may well have made these statements about himself being a Macedonian and not a Bulgarian, and you really don't need Stavridis as a source on what Sandanski stood for; but if you then go on to write that Stavridis "clearly stated that the IMRO fought for a united autonomous state of Macedonia, and therefore for the Macedonian nation, for its official fortification. But, above all, Stavridis concluded that the IMRO was a completely Macedonian national organization", when Stavridis denounces it as a cover for Bulgarian expansionism staffed with Bulgarian army officers, then you should better not make your sources public, because other people can read Greek too. This is blatant and deliberate misrepresentation of the source in question. Constantine ✍ 20:43, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This article is about Todor Panitsa, not Stavridis' views. I provide Panitsa's views and claims. Bobi987 Ivanov (talk) 15:39, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So where does this "above all, Stavridis concluded that" come from, exactly? You try to fortify your argument and pet POV regarding the IMRO by invoking an author who says the exact opposite. Sorry, but this is pure fabrication and you know it. Constantine ✍ 18:02, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Some Bulgarian propagandists could claim that the historian form the Oxford University, Richard J. Crampton might refer to Macedonian origin of Todor and of his father's brother, as a regional affiliation, but not ethnic. That couldn't be true, because none of them was born in the region of Macedonia. That is why I'll add the word "ethnic" in the article. Bobi987 Ivanov (talk) 16:55, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

> Some Bulgarian propagandists may have even ridiculously claimed that before 1945 the Macedonian ethnicity (or, ethno-nation) didn't exist. There are hundreds of proofs that they, the Bulgarian propagandists would be wrong. Here are 2 citation.
Macedonians mentioned as a nation near about the Greeks - THE ACTS AND MONUMENTS OF JOHN FOXE (A New and Complete Edition), 1837, George Townsend, pg. 29.,
Description of the Macedonian ethnogeographical boundaries in 15th century: — "The Macedonians are a people closely related to the Serbs (...these all prefer peaceful life, unlike the mountainous Vlachs)... Skopje is on the boundary between Dardania on the north and Macedonia on the south... And there flows the Vardar river... While the bridge of the Strymon river - near Gegligovo (the аrеа between Kumanovo and Kriva Palanka), the valley of Konopnica and Velbuzd (Kyustendil) - separates the Macedonians from the Triballi or the Bulgars. ...The boundary between the Dardanians, Tribali and the Macedonians is actually the southern border of Rascia (Serbia)... The Drin river flows out of the lake near Ohrid, a city of the Macedonians, and it separates them from the Dardanians. ...The Dinaric Mountains range separates Macedonia from Epirus, Thessaly, Volos, Acarnania, Aetolia, Boeotia and Athos, and on the other (eastern) side, the Macedonians and the Besi tribe border with the Triballi, Skordisces and the Thracians at the Pirin Mountain which ends up at the Aegean Sea. ...Struma is boundary between the Thracians and the Macedonians. ...The Greek settlements are located around the Thessalonika Bay, south from Thessalonika - the most famous city of the Macedonians." - MALO DJELO POŠTOVANOGA GOSPODINA GOSPODINA MARTINA DE SEGONIS PO NARODNOSTI KOTORANINA A PORIJEKLOM SRBINA IZ NOVOMONTA DRUKČIJE NOVOBRDA NAZVANOG PO MILOSTI BOŽJOJ EPISKOPA ULCINJSKOG PREBLAŽENOM SIKSTU IV RIMSKOM PAPI.
Besides, Isaia Mazhovski, Panitsa's contemporary, in his autobiography says that he was a Macedonian officer, obviously referring to his ethnic heritage, due to the fact that then there wasn't a Macedonian state, nor Macedonian national institutions.

"If a militant Jihadist is a follower of Truman and his doctrine does this make Truman a militant Jihadist?" - Yes, if Truman is their leader. Isaia Mazhovski, Panitsa's contemporary, in his autobiography says that he became leader of this Macedonian Committee that Macedonian nationalists constituted, and whose ideal was a free and independent Macedonian nation-state.

"Here's also what Stavridis has to say in page 216: "The Bulgarian government... seeing that Sandanski's successors, and Panitsa in particular did not have his [Sandanski's] leadership ability nor his education, tried to conquer the organization [IMRO] from within, enrolling many individuals dedicated to the idea of a Bulgarian conquest and annexation of Macedonia" etc, going on about the Bulgarian government providing funds and assistance to control the organization, or its accepting the autonomy of Macedonia only as a first step towards annexation, using IMRO as vehicle for its own ambitions."

The annotation is accepted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.126.186.106 (talk) 11:50, 19 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Laveol: Additionally, blogs are not considered reliable sources. Hence, I have removed them from the article. Annotation accepted. 79.126.226.49 (talk) 19:39, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Panitsa's ethnic Macedonian origin[edit]

Todor Panitsa was born in Oryahovo, Northern Bulgaria. This is indisputable fact. He was not from regional Macedonian origin. More, His father Nikola Panitsa was born in Veliko Tarnovo, also Northern Bulgaria, and his mother Mitanka Peltekova was born in Svishtov, as well in Northern Bulgaria. Ethnic Macedonian origin is possible for people born during 1930s, i.e. this identity was developed significantly during the second half of 1940s. Panitsa was killed in 1925. Panitsa's clan history can be traced to the mid-18th century, when hiss ancestors lived in Debelets, today also in northern Bulgaria. Source: Кой кой е сред българите ХV-ХIХ в: 501 имена от епохата на османското владичество, Илия Тодев, Издател Анубис, 2000, стр. 205. in English: Who's who among Bulgarians XV-XIX century: 501 names from the period of Ottoman rule, Iliya Todev, Publisher Anubis, 2000, p. 205. Stop vandalizing the article, please. 212.117.45.70 (talk) 13:35, 1 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's been already explained before, by the other editor -
>> And, one more thing. Ethnic origin has nothing to do with the territory where a person is born. Bobi987 Ivanov (talk) 18:33, 15 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
>>Some Bulgarian propagandists could claim that the historian form the Oxford University, Richard J. Crampton might refer to Macedonian origin of Todor and of his father's brother, as a regional affiliation, but not ethnic. That couldn't be true, because none of them was born in the region of Macedonia. That is why I'll add the word "ethnic" in the article. Bobi987 Ivanov (talk) 16:55, 16 October 2014 (UTC) Chakmak111 (talk) 19:04, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Besides, Isaia Mazhovski, Panitsa's contemporary, in his autobiography says that he was a Macedonian officer, obviously referring to his ethnic heritage, due to the fact that then there wasn't a Macedonian state, nor Macedonian national institutions. 79.126.226.49 (talk) 19:39, 2 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Can we stop with the nonsense? Crampton opinion about Macedonians is clearly explained on p. 94 in the cited above book, and it is that all Macedonians in Bulgaria felt themselves as Bulgarians. Check it. Moreover the book concerns the whole history of Bulgaria and covers a period of 1300 years. On the other hand, specialized study published by the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences tracks Panitsa's clan roots till the end of 17th century in Debelets. In the mid. of the 18th century they moved to Arbanasi and in the late 18th century to Veliko Tarnovo. Todor Panitsa's father was born in Veliko Tarnovo, and his mother Mitanka Peltekova was born in Svishtov. Panitsa himself was born in Oryahovo. All these places are in today North Bulgaria, or Moesia. There is any geographical or blood relation with Macedonia or Macedonian Slavs. Source: Архиви и документи. Родът Паница. Автор: проф. Елена Стателова, Академично издателство "Проф. Марин Дринов" София 1997. (in English: Records and documents. The clan Panitsa. Author: Prof. Elena Statelova, Academic Publishing House "Prof. Marin Drinov", Sofia, 1997.) Crampton in this case is ​​inaccurate, but this is possible, because his survey is with a much wider range, then a study of a single clan or a person. More, there is academic consensus that Macedonian nationalism is a recently developed idea:
  • "Macedonian nationalism is a new phenomenon. In the early twentieth century, there was no separate Slavic Macedonian identity" Sperling, James; Kay, Sean; Papacosma, S. Victor (2003). Limiting institutions?: the challenge of Eurasian security governance. Manchester, UK, Manchester University Press. p. 57. ISBN 978-0-7190-6605-4.
  • "The question as of whether a Macedonian nation actually existed in the mid. of 1940s when a Communist Yugoslavia decided to recognize one is difficult to answer. Some observers argue that even at this time it was doubtful whether the Slavs from Macedonia considered themselves to be a nationality separate from the Bulgarians." The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Loring M. Danforth, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-691-04356-6, pp. 65-66.
  • "Macedonian identity and language were themselves a product of federal Yugoslavia, and took shape only after 1944." Zielonka, Jan; Pravda, Alex (2001). Democratic consolidation in Eastern Europe. Oxford: Oxford University Press, p. 422. ISBN 978-0-19-924409-6.
  • "Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians... In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one." Titchener, Frances B.; Moorton, Richard F. (1999). The eye expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman antiquity. Berkeley: University of California Press, p. 259. ISBN 978-0-520-21029-5. 88.203.200.74 (talk) 08:50, 3 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Richard J. Crampton says that most, IF NOT ALL Macedonians regarded themselves as ethnically Bulgarian. That means NOT ALL Macedonians regarded themselves as ethnically Bulgarian. Chakmak111 (talk) 01:17, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe these Bulgarians, born in Ottoman Moesia, i.e. today North Bulgaria, who had Bulgarian ancestry that can be traced to at least 17th century, as Panitsa himself, regarded themselves as ethnically Macedonian, and that at a time, when such nationality did still not exist? Crampton's opinion is in accordance with the academic consensus above: "In 1945 a Macedonian national consciousness hardly existed beyond a general conviction, gained from bitter experience, that the rule from Sofia was as unpalatable as that from Belgrade. But if there was no Macedonian nation there was a Communist party of Macedonia... It was in the People's Republic of Macedonia that the modern Macedonian nation was to be born in terms of the creation of a national alphabet and rapid growth of a sense of Macedonian national identity." R. J. Crampton, The Balkans Since the Second World War, Routledge, 2014, ISBN 1317891171, p. 28. 88.203.200.74 (talk) 14:04, 6 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
1. Ethnicity / Ethnic origin does not mean nationality / national consciousness.
2. The genesis of the Macedonian nationalism is at 1860's -
Petko Rachev Slaveikov, a Bulgarian national revivalist active in Constantinople, in January 1871 publicly admitted that he had heard this ideology “as early as some ten years ago from some people in Macedonia”, which had now grown into “a thought that many would like to put into effect”. He confirmed that he had “many times” heard from them that “they were not Bulgarians but Macedonians, descendants of ancient Macedonians, or the Slavs, they had always claimed to be Macedonians, i.e. pure Slavs, while the Bulgarians are Tartars and who knows what else”. These “Macedonists” (as he called them) boldly declared before him: “We broke off from the Greeks, should we now fall under others!?” (Petko Slaveykov, “The Macedonian question”, 18. I. 1871. ; Victor Roudometof , “Nationalism,Orthodoxy and Globalization,” Greenwood Publishing Group, 2001, p. 145)
"An ethnos is formed by people who have a common origin and speak the same language. The place where the ethnos lives is called fatherland. Therefore, the Macedonians are an ethnos, and their fatherland is Macedonia." (Gjorgjija Pulevski, "Trijazicnik", 1875, pp. 49).
Temko Popov wrote in 1888: “The national spirit in Macedonia today has reached such a degree, that if Christ himself came down from heaven, could not persuade a Macedonian that he's a Bulgarian or a Serb." (see: “Граѓа за историјата на македонскиот народ “ том IV, кн. III (1888-1889), Белград 1987 год. стр. 134-136 - The Original (Народна библиотека Србије – Фонд Јована Хаџи Васиљевића, П. 413/III. 9.маја 1888); and - Ben Fawkes, "Ethnicity and ethnic conflict in the post-communist world," 2002, p. 56.)
The eventual Macedonian ethnic origin of Panitsa has nothing to do with the fact that he was born outer Macedonia. Radko Kovac (talk) 23:33, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Reverting censorship[edit]

I think, all issues are resolved here. Radko Kovac (talk) 23:31, 25 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely wrong. 88.203.200.74 (talk) 06:32, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]
They will be resolved when all sockpuppets are finally blocked. --Laveol T 07:20, 26 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Panitsa ethnic Macedonian?[edit]

How can such things be written? This man was born in Oryahovo on the banks of the Danube, grew up in Varna on the Black Sea coast, and the roots of his family on maternal and paternal line are from Tarnovo in the middle of Balkan mountains. This is nonsense. Jingiby (talk) 09:06, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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