Talk:Torajan people

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Comments from Request for Feedback

Hi everyone. I've just made a major change of this article: Toraja, about an ethnic group in Indonesia. I found this article as only a stub [1], did some research and put my contribution in the article. However I need somebody else to review this article, as one editor is not enough to make a good article. Could somebody please give me some feedbacks? What's still missing in this article? NPOV? sources? or wording? Thanks a lot in advance. — Indon (reply) — 11:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello, Indon! I'm Hildanknight, creator of RFF. This is an excellent article, and I could not spot any problems during my brief reading of the article. I suggest you send the article for a peer review, where it will receive more extensive and specific feedback, and once the peer review is completed, nominate it for Good Article. As a member of the Good Articles WikiProject, I'd be happy for you if Toraja becomes a good article. I have to go to bed now, but hopefully one of my friends will soon drop by and give you more extensive feedback. If I have the time tomorrow, I will read the article more thoroughly and get back to you. All the best to you, both in real life and as a Wikipedian! --J.L.W.S. The Special One 14:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Hildanknight, thanks for your support. It gives me a good feeling about sending it to the peer review and GA list. Since I'm the only one who did a major contribution, I tried to put the article here first. All right, have a good night sleep, but I am waiting for your thorough and comprehensive review tomorrw ;-). — Indon (reply) — 14:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• I'll try and give it a proper look later, but it definitely needs a copyedit - it switches between past and present making it unclear whether events are historical or current. Yomangani^talk 14:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I noticed your edit, Yomangani. Thanks a lot. I admit that I have a difficulty in tenses. — Indon (reply) — 15:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

copy-pasted — Indon (reply) — 18:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Comments from Peer Review

Toraja

I found this article as a stub, did some research and expanded this article. As one editor is not enough, I need somebody else's review of this article. Any comments, suggestions, critics, even direct editing to the article, are very welcomed and I really appreciate it. Thanks a lot in advance. — Indon (reply) — 09:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Comments:

• "...as the Dutch understood that the future acceptance of Christianity by Torajans depended heavily on its policy toward the smoke-descending (death) ritual..." Why?
• Religion and social class are mentioned across many different sections, which lends itself to redundancy.

There's a lot of good information, but the prose is often fragmented and unclear, and there are some grammatical mistakes, especially as regards tense. It's sometimes unclear to me which social costums are modern, and which are traditional and no longer practiced. Having read just the first section, for example, one would think they still hold slaves. I tried to fix what I could. -- bcasterline • talk 16:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Answers:

• First of all, thanks a lot for your deep review. I need that, as English is my 2nd language. Thus you're right about the prose. I still have difficulties in tenses. I'll take a detail look again to that article and check the time, which one is traditional, obsolete and modern practices.
• About Torajan Christianity, that sentence was taken from one of the reference. I'll try to read again and fix the unclear.
• Yep, you're right again. It's sometimes difficult when their religion is used in many aspects, but I'm going to reduce the redundancy.

Again, thanks a lot bcasterline. I noticed your edit in the article and I really appreciate it. — Indon (reply) — 07:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

nice pictures. consider moving the map (currently located by the history section) to the top of the page (in the infobox). Jon513 13:56, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the review. I think the map picture is better in the History section, as the article explains about an ethnic group. So the infobox should represents the ethnic group identity and if the map is moved to the infobox, the History section will have no image. The map is suitable to describe the location of Torajan among Bugis and Makassarese, explained in the History section. — Indon (reply) — 17:17, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I what you say makes sence. But when I started reading the article my first thought were "where the hell are these people". Jon513 13:53, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

In that case, I moved the History section above. Hope that helps. — Indon (reply) — 14:02, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

it's a live-feed — Indon (reply) — 18:16, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Nominations for selected Indonesia article

Toraja

I have made some changes and I think it's a good one to be selected. Don't you think? — Indon (reply) — 11:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Support. — Indon (reply) — 11:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
• Support. Great job! -- Imoeng 20:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

it's a live-feed — Indon (reply) — 18:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Comments from Indonesia peer review

Toraja

Guys, I've made a lot of changes in this article, but this article really requires more than 1 contributor to have neutral views and also, as I'm not a native English person, I need somebody else to check grammar consistencies, as well as spelling. Any critics, suggestions and direct editing is very welcome and I really appreciate it. Thanks a lot in advance. — Indon (reply) — 04:41, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

I wish I could give suggestions and recommendations. But my english is not better than yours, so, umm, ahahahah, I'm afraid I'll make the article worse. Above all, it looks great for me. Good work! Cheers -- 10:10, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

C'mon, I've made so many grammar mistakes. Thanks that somebody corrected it. Anyway, thanks. — Indon (reply) — 11:23, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

it's a live-feed — Indon (reply) — 04:46, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Some requests

• Would like to see some pictures of Toraja people, preferablly in their traditional clothes. Can't imagine a page about an ethnic group without having some pictures of the people themselves :-)
• Would like more details about their culture - their food, clothes, art, crafts, etc.
• Could include a section listing notable Torajan people

Caniago

Oops, a lot of requests ;-)

• I wish I could find a picture of a Torajan people on the internet, released with suitable Wikipedia licenses. I don't live in Toraja, nor Indonesia and I cannot find a Torajan people here in Europe. As soon as I can find or ask one, I'll put it in this article.
• About culture, I will expand it, but I need to do some research first. Also, I'm avoiding big article for Toraja, because as soon as it is too long, people won't read it.
• Notable Torajans? Hmm... I think, I've to ask some Torajan people on the internet.

BTW, this is just an ordinary talk page. The above style I created is just because this talk page was empty. :-) — Indon (reply) — 07:17, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Failed "good article" nomination

This article failed good article nomination. This is how the article, as of September 23, 2006, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: The article is well organized, with clear sections. However, significant grammatical errors remain. I fixed those where I found them, but people should run through the text again and again to catch any others. The main problem with the article is the sometimes poorly organized paragraphs. I have included some examples I found below.

2. Factually accurate?: Everything seems accurate, and is sourced. Please consider in-line citations

3. Broad in coverage?: It seems thorough.

4. Neutral point of view?: It seems suitably NPOV.

5. Article stability? Article is moderately stable, although there is a higher level of activity than is generally considered good during a GA nomination. All current changes appear to be for the better, but they should be taken care above by the time the article is no longer on hold.

6. Images?: Images are decent, although I second the comment above that asked for pictures of the Toraja themselves.

When these issues are addressed, the article can be resubmitted for consideration. Thanks for your work so far.

I am a Good Article candidate reviewer who focuses on social sciences. Accordingly, I started to review this article. Although it is in many ways excellent, I have to fail it. I always try to provide in-depth feedback when I fail a nomination. In addition to the standard template, I have made significant grammatical changes to the article to correct frequent flaws I found. I have also posted paragraphs I found confusing or in need of more information. I have not gotten beyond the society section. I will start culture tomorrow.

In the late 19th century, the Dutch became increasingly concerned about the spread of Islam in South Sulawesi, especially among Makassarese people. They saw the animist highlanders as a pool of potential Christians. In 1909, the Association of Dutch Reformed Missionaries (GZB) began missionary work in four ways:

1. slavery was abolished, bringing peace and relative safety to the area,
2. Christianity was introduced, later used as a defence against lowland Islamic fundamentalism,
3. local taxes were applied, and
4. a line was drawn around Sa'dan area and called the Tana Toraja (or the land of Toraja) (Sandra 1998).

I am not sure how the four points supported the missionary work. Please explain.

After Indonesian independence, South Sulawesi was the host to Darul Islam, a separatist movement to make an Islamic state of Sulawesi, which killed 10,000 people, including Christian and aluk Torajans, between 1951 to 1965 (Sandra 1998). Many more Torajans were converted to Christianity and fought against the Indonesian government.

The text above seems to say that there was a surge in Moslem conversions associated with a war against the national government. It then goes on to say that there was a surge in Christian conversions because of a rebellion against the national government. Were both conversions simultaneous? Are they seperate? If so, please modify the passage to include an explanation. Also, "played host to" is probably not the best way to describe a seperatist movement.

The family seat is the tongkonan, a traditional Toraja house. Each tongkonan has its own name and this becomes the name of the village. Consanguinity is common in order to maintain a strong kinship community.

What is the "family seat" exactly? If the name of the house becomes the name of the village, does this mean that each village is one extended family? Also, please explain "consanguinity" so that the average reader will not have to click on the article to find out more.

Marriage is determined by genealogy, that is, who can marry whom (Sandra 1998).

What restrictions are imposed by genealogy?

Each Torajan village (and thus a family) was autonomous in terms of authority. In a more complex situation, in which one Toraja family could not live alone, they formed a group of 1 or more other Torajan villages. Some villages were united against the other villages in different conditions. Some villages sided with the Dutch against the lowlanders. Others fought the Dutch. Traditional animists and Christian Torajans could unite against Muslims. Yet, at another time, all Torajans (including Muslims) defended theirselves against Bugis people (Sandra 1998).

How was power shared when villages cohabitated?

Aluk is the law, religion and habit combined, and includes instructions on how to perform social life, agricultural practices, dealing with ancestral, rituals, etc.

This sentence is awkward. However, I don't know enough about the subject to try and fiddle with it.

Culture and Commercialization to come tomorrow..." --Tjss(Talk) 07:45, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Answers to your questions above:

1. I am not sure how the four points supported the missionary work. Please explain.
   • It didn't work, as it has been explained in the later paragraph that the Dutch failed to subdue Torajan's culture. The 4 items were directly quoted from (Sandra 1998).
     • My only issue is this: I just don't see the how those four items helped missionary work.
       • Maybe the four items are really misleading. I've fixed that. — Indon (reply) — 08:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)
2. The text above seems to say that there was a surge in Moslem conversions...
   • Fixed. It was because of copyedit that the meaning was changed.
     • Okay looks good.
3. What is the "family seat" exactly? If the name of the house becomes the name of the village, does this mean that each village is one extended family?
   • The family seat is the "official" place where the family is located. [2] I think it's a common term to note about some ancient/medieval practices where family holds some political or economical influences in the area.
   • Yes, each village is one extended family.
     • I am fine with the family section as it stands (see a few copy-edits), although the info I asked about would still be nice.
4. Also, please explain "consanguinity" so that the average reader will not have to click on the article to find out more.
   • Fixed.
     • Looks good.
5. What restrictions are imposed by genealogy?
   • It is uknown to me, as the literature I read does not explain further. I will try to find more about this, as soon as I find it, I'll update the text. In the meantime, this is what the literature says.
6. How was power shared when villages cohabitated?
   • Again, the detail about this is not yet known. I have to dig more about this in other literature.
7. This sentence is awkward. However, I don't know enough about the subject to try and fiddle with it.
   • It means that aluk is not only just a belief, but it governs all life of Torajans. I have fixed this sentence in the text.
     • I modified the sentence to include a link to belief system. At the end, should the comma be removed between ancestral and rituals?: Aluk is not just a belief system; it is a combination of law, religion, and habit. Aluk governs social life, agricultural practices, dealing with ancestral, rituals, etc.
       • Better. Thanks. — Indon (reply) — 08:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

About in-line citations, I used the Harvard referencing style, which is one of the 3 official WP citation styles. Could you also please read how to make an inline citations in Harvard referencing? This is what I have done in the text.

The GA criteria requires that only in-line citations be used, so I'm afraid Harvard referencing is not an option. In-line citations are footnotes. Since you already have the bibliography written up, it shouldn't be that difficult to change. For each place you need to cite something, just include the bibliography between < ref > and < /ref > tags at the end of the sentence. For example, I modified the four points on missionary work (Sandra, 1998) to use in-line citations.

We have agreed in this issue that the article has already inline citations by using Harvard citation style of inline citing. So I can assume this issue is fixed, right? — Indon (reply) — 08:38, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your thorough review, Tjss. I am going to wait your further review tomorrow. Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 09:16, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Culture and commercialization

The second type is tongkonan pekamberan, which belongs to the family group members, who have adat functionaries.

What is adat? According to the adat article, it's system of traditional Mylay law. Does this mean that the residents of the second type of house are local judges?

Yes, they can be judges or some administrative persons. Perhaps adat article is not good enough to explain about it. I've fixed this sentence in the article. — Indon (reply) — 08:43, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to run (busy weekend!) but I'll get to commercialization soon. The section on culture is generally excellent, as is most of the article. --Tjss(Talk) 17:09, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay. I'm done with my copy-edit. I hope the feedback above helps. Please consider submitting it for a GA nomination again. I have contributed too much to review it again, but I'm sure someone else will have little problem promoting this to GA status. Cheers. --Tjss(Talk) 19:11, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Tjss. You've been a great reviewer. I'm going to fix the article from your feedbacks and renominate it again. Cheers back ;-). — Indon (reply) — 19:22, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

Fixed all GA comments and citation is adapted to the majority in WP --> renomination — Indon (reply) — 23:39, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

The Article Passes

First, a congratulations. The article is well written, everything it should be. It was in-depth and covered the wide range of topics it should. There is only two things I would like you to address. Don't make me come back and take your GA away, please fix these quickly. A graph or chart displaying the rise of tourists or tourism income would be great. Note: it would be easy to contact the Indonesian tourism office and ask for year-by-year numbers of tourism income from Toraja. Then you could transpose those numbers into a graph. Its very easy to do. Your citations are here, good. The references are fine. You could flesh out the "Further Reading" section more. Otherwise, this is an excellent article. A bit more work and it is, to be honest, ready for FA nomination. I truly enjoyed reading this article. Evan^{(Salad dressing is the milk of the infidel!)} 11:04, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for reviewing this article and don't come back to get the GA away ;-), just kidding. Anyway, I can't promise any graph/chart image, as I'm far away from the ministry of tourism office, and .... lacking of images are not requirement of GA :-). Thanks again. — Indon (reply) — 11:36, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

One more suggestion

Indon, congrats on the GA status. One more suggestion - it would be great if there were a separate Wikipedia article for Tongkonan, as per Rumah Gadang. When I get some time I'll be adding some more detail to the RG article to make it more informative than just the single picture and paragraph currently there. Ideally we could eventually have one article for every traditional architectural style present in Indonesia, with an overview article listing them all. (Caniago 10:38, 29 September 2006 (UTC))

Michael, I have the same idea. I'd like to create one and I found a good source in library here, where I'm studying, but it is offline. The book is focused on Tongkonan architecture with its cultural purposes. Yes, it will be good to have each traditional Indonesian architecture as one WP article. I'll support for that. Thanks for the congrats. Cheers. — Indon (reply) — 11:01, 29 September 2006 (UTC)

FAC review

refs

• cite journal | title = Bahasa Tae' Luwu Masuki Dunia Ilmiah| journal = Palopo | publisher = JURnalCelebe | date = 2005-05-11 | url = http://www.jurnalcelebes.com/view.php?id=196&jenis=jurnal_adat%7Caccessdate = 2006-10-16
  • Journal and publisher aren't both used on cite journal. Not sure which is the journal, and which is the other? Also, the URL doesn't work. What is the language? Is there an icon at Category:Language icons?
• I linked journals and websources directly in footnotes; books need page nos.
• What is the language on Tana Toraja official website. Retrieved on October 4, 2006. Is there a language icon?
• Another language icon needed for A.C. Kruyt (1938). De West-Toradjas op Midden-Celebes. Amsterdam: Noord-Hollandsche Uitgevers-Maatschappij.
• cf. Bigalke (1981) What is Bigalke 81? The refs have Bigalke 2005 ?
• What is Nooy-Palm (1979) ? I find a 75 and an 88 ?

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:35, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

copy

• The Taraja are defined as an ethnic group, yet you refer to Taraja as a place quite often. Is this intentional, acceptable? Is Taraja shorthand for the regency "Tana Toraja"?
• Sometimes I don't get the intended meaning of a sentence, which limits copyediting. See any edit comments I've left. –Outriggr § 04:21, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Replies

Thanks for reviewing this article to both of you. I'm going to reply your concerns one-by-one here:

To Sandy

1. The Palopo's article is now inaccessible, or the page is already dead. So I removed the statement while searching for a new replacement. In fact, I added one ref. in the Language section.
2. Now I moved all citations into Notes section and left the books used as general source in the References section.
3. Language icons are now added.
4. Re. Bigalke (1981), it was a dissertation which is now a book in 2005. Another editor, Kathleen Adams herself, updated one citation to the book but I didn't realize that she hadn't replaced all. Now, Bigalke's thesis is also inaccessible and I don't have the book at hand. Thus, I replaced with other sources and copyedited a little bit to conform with the new source.
5. Re. Nooy-Palm 1979, it was my mistake. It should be 1975. It's fixed now.

To Outriggr

1. Toraja is indeed an ethnic group. The Tana Toraja is the official regency name. In the article, Toraja is used also as an adjective word for the Torajan people. I have checked the article again, and I only found one word of Toraja that should point to Toraja society.
2. I've seen your hidden comment and indeed you're right. I removed the awkward sentence.

Again, thanks. Let me know if there are other issues left. — Indon (reply) — 13:06, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Nice work — I love beautiful references :-) I think there are only three book sources lacking page numbers now: Posey 96, Sande 89, and Kruyt. Also, I couldn't add last access dates on all of the URLs, as some of them are JSTORS, and I don't have access. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:36, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

I replaced Sande with the website that displays Sande's work. I have to go to the library for Kruyt's book, and that probably will be done next Monday. And I will change Posey 96 source with other. I have access to JSTORS, I'll change the last access dates for them. — Indon (reply) — 14:55, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Now I'm feeling guilty that you're having to change book sources to web sources :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:00, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

No, actually I love being verifiable. That is my mistake not to note the page number when I read it. Thanks a lot for your help. — Indon (reply) — 15:04, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

House as microcosm

I took out this sentence:

''Tongkonan'' symbolize Toraja's [[Macrocosm and microcosm|microcosm]].<ref>cf. Kis-Jovak et al (1988), Ch. 4, Hetty Nooy-Palm, ''The house as microcosm'', p. 34.</ref>

I've to go to library to read the source again to know what this means. — Indon (reply) — 08:26, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

"related groups" info removed from infobox

For dedicated editors of this page: The "Related Groups" info was removed from all {{Infobox Ethnic group}} infoboxes. Comments may be left on the Ethnic groups talk page. Ling.Nut 17:20, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Language section

Hi Indon, As I slowly copyedit... the Language section confuses me. I'm no linguist, but I don't see any evidence that the word "denomination" is used to refer to language groups. In the table, aren't "Kalumpang" and the others simply "languages", not "denominations"? See [3] The next question becomes, which is the "ethnic Toraja" language the article refers to? Is it the one with the most speakers listed—"Torajan-Sa'dan"? –Outriggr § 01:52, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it's a bit too late to answer your question, but I agree with you. The source has been changed, so there is no denomination word in their website. Therefore, I reworded the section as it is now. And thanks a lot for reviewing this article. — Indon (reply) — 08:39, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Last minute, but...

I went to copyedit this article and found it to be in pretty good shape already. Fascinating reading, too. I fixed the few problems I found that I could address unaided. There are a couple of other things I noticed, though. As I encountered them reading along:

In "Family affiliation" it says "Each village is one extended family, the seat of which is the tongkonan, a traditional Torajan house. Each tongkonan has a name, which becomes the name of the village." But right there is a picture of a "village" showing a whole bunch of houses. The reader is puzzled.

In the same section it says that family relations are "practically signed". I can't imagine what that means. I went to change it to "effectively signed", supposing it meant "signed, as a contract", when I realized that there is nothing in the sentence that bears that kind of signing. Perhaps "are cemented"?

In "Class affiliation", we see "direct descendants of the descended person from heaven". Although I think I know what is meant by "descended person from heaven", it would be better to expand that a little, maybe something like "direct descendants of their original ancestor believed to have descended from heaven", if that is indeed what it means. In any case, "descended person from heaven" is not English, and if you decide to keep it terse and murky, make it "direct descendants of the person descended from heaven".

Same section. I changed "slaves could be owned during wars" to "slaves could be taken during wars". Is this right?

In "Religious affiliation", I made the authority of the priest "earthly" so it reads better. Is that right? Also, the only "affiliation" I see in this section is that of the priest.

Wood Carvings: I changed "goodwill" to "virtue." "Goodwill" is a wrong word here, but I can't be sure what the right one is. Also, the last paragraph is deep, abstruse and sketchy.

Funeral rites: "with the exceptions of funerals for young children, and poor, low-status adults." This phrase seems extraneous and is ungrammatical. What are their funerals an exception to?

I "lined up" the dead buffalo because you can't "line" them. Is this right, or do their bodies "line" the field?

I was surprised to learn they use "machetes" to slaughter the animals. Perhaps there is a more specific term for the edged tool they use.

Why is "gifts" in quotes?

To say that the carved cliff grave is "usually" expensive means there is a cheap way to get months of carving done. This makes the reader think.

Dance and music: The helmet sports "a buffalo horn". I'll bet you a million dollars right now it has "a pair of buffalo horns" on it.

If "the deceased is carried from a rice barn to the rante", how did he get from under the house to the rice barn where we left him?

The "Language" section is a complete mess and needs the attention of an expert. If nobody else steps in, I'll take a whack at it later.

Commercialization: What is this Regency we're just now hearing about?

What is a "tourist object"? I've never seen the term before, and it seems like a bad translation of something. If it hadn't been in quotes once, I would have changed both instances to "tourist site".

"tourist imageries have made Torajans concealing their social status." I can't figure out what this means.

Well, there you go. That's my first pass. I usually see other problems the second time through, and I'll do that in a day or two. __Milkbreath 19:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Here is a confusing line: "However, tourist imageries have made Torajans concealing their social status." Perhaps someone more knowledgeable about the subject can fix this. Paul Haymon 01:03, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe if you quote the lines completely as "However, tourist imageries have made Torajans concealing their social status. High status is not as esteemed in Tana Toraja as it once was. Many low-ranking men can declare themselves and their children nobles by gaining enough wealth through work outside the region and then marrying a noble woman.", then you'll understand. And maybe if you read the Class Affiliation subsection, then you understand that social status was one of the most important things of Toraja life. — Indon (reply) — 07:48, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

No, my dear Indon, the problem is "tourist imageries". That is a meaningless phrase in English. What is a tourist imagery? If I had been able to figure that out, I would have fixed it and "Torajans concealing" during the copyedit. I just want to get the English right so people can read this otherwise excellent article. --Milkbreath 12:59, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

My dear Milkbeath, I wrote that from an article, written by an anthropologist. It's ref #5. The source is here: [4]. Could you please read that and tell me if the lines in this article are still not correct. — Indon (reply) — 13:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I read the Rutgers article, which I admit I should have read before, but I'm kind of lazy, and I'm used to having access to the writer when I copyedit. Kathleen Adams uses the word "imagery" the way many scholarly writers use words—she slightly redefines it for the purposes of her article and expects us to keep up. Too, there is a big difference between her "touristic imagery" and our "tourist imageries"; in hers, "imagery" is a mass noun like "cattle" and can't be plural. I will go and fix the sentence in the actual article now. Please let me know if it still says what you want it to when I'm done. Also, while I have your attention, the other problems above still need fixing, too. --Milkbreath 14:09, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, that's better. I'll check the above your concerned items. — Indon (reply) — 16:04, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Sugestion from Machyak

hi indon and everyone, i don'thave a particular interest in this ethnic group and only came across it because it is today's featured article (well done all). i have a suggestion for achange, however. the sentence "By the 1990s, when tourism peaked, Toraja society had evolved significantly, from its agricultural beginnings—in which social life and customs were outgrowths of the Aluk To Dolo—into a largely Christian society." is objectionable to me for its reference to and implicit endorsement of social darwinist ideas. as a cultural anthropologist i recognise that all societies and cultures are in a constant state of change, and reject (as do most current thinkers) the supposition that cultures evolve along a continuum from 'primitive' to 'civilised', which is ultimately what the use of the word 'evolve' here implies. can i therefore suggest, to keep the article neutral and in line with current thinking on the subject that the sentence is changed to read "By the 1990s, when tourism peaked, Toraja society had changed significantly, from an agrarian model—in which social life and customs were outgrowths of the Aluk To Dolo—to a largely Christian society." thanks Machyak 03:20, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

I agree with that. I'll change it. Thanks — Indon (reply) — 07:29, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup

Sentences such as "However, tourist imageries have made Torajans concealing their social status." need cleaning up. I'd do it myself but I have to go... Rich Farmbrough, 10:03 12 August 2007 (GMT).

Yes, please do so. — Indon (reply) — 10:10, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Excellent article

I can't resist complimenting those who spent a lot of time writing this article. It's very good and definitely deserves its featured status. Basser g 14:07, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks Basser g. — Indon (reply) — 16:05, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Toraja Chinese relations

http://books.google.com/books?id=9EUn6qoAcnIC&pg=PA198&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=9i9e3j2qPCAC&pg=PA270&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=sVsAFeo1KjgC&pg=PA182&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=4mNC0FljEiQC&pg=PA19&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=WpB2rMwY4vgC&pg=PA242&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CFUQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=dH_zO-_DXPAC&pg=PA209&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CFwQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false

http://books.google.com/books?id=H0PXkzgcdRQC&pg=PA77&dq=toraja+chinese&hl=en&sa=X&ei=0dMIUcalI6bH0AGE2ICQDA&ved=0CGEQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=toraja%20chinese&f=false

Rajmaan (talk) 09:27, 18 July 2014 (UTC)

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Pronunciation

I would like to see some indication of pronunciation especially of the name Toraja. Given the ambivalent use of the letter "j" in Indonesia from the Dutch era "y" pronunciation to the modern "dj", how is the name "Toraja" pronounced? The spelling seems unchanged from the Dutch era. So is it "toradja" or "toraya"? The same would be helpful for any vernacular words/name that include the letter "j". I went through all the linked language/dialect articles - most of which are stubs - and found no help their either. Ptilinopus (talk) 20:50, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

@Ptilinopus: I'm not sure of the phonic spelling for Toraja, but "ToraJA" is pronounced the same way as in the English word for "JArring", isolating the R in "jarring". Hope this makes sense. -Jeblat (talk) 02:50, 18 April 2020 (UTC)

@Ptilinopus and Jeblat: I have an added an Indonesian IPA entry to Tana Toraja, maybe we can adopt it here. I don't know if there is an established English pronunciation. I use a final AH sound also in English, as described by Jeblat, but I could imagine that some pronounce it as rhyming with rajah (thus a final schwa). –Austronesier (talk) 17:41, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

FA sweeps

There are some discrepancies between this article and the FA criteria. Verifiability is an issue, with 19 citation needed tags in the article. Not all of the sources cited seem to be high-quality reliable sources as required by the FA criteria, for example these.[5][6][7] (t · c) buidhe 20:19, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Misrepresentation of Rappoport (2004)

This addition is supposed to be based on

• Rappoport, Dana (2004). "Ritual music and christianization in the Toraja's Highlands, Sulawesi". Ethnomusicology. 48 (3): 378–404. JSTOR 30046286.

However, much of the added text is not supported by the source:

• [The Dutch] outlawed practices such as sun-rising rituals, feasts, and funerals – They didn't. Rappoport describes on pp. 386–387 how Dutch missionaries regulated which traditional ritual practices were admissible for converts to Christianity. In the case of funeral rituals, they completely failed, but many other practices have only survived among the minority that chose not to convert.
• The Dutch also forced Toraja people into Christian schools – Again, no. Depending on which party was in power in The Hague, the Dutch were more interested in putting the people of the East Indies into taxable labor, whereas providing access to some sort of basic education to the masses was a controversial topic, including the role of missionaries in the latter agenda. But schools were indeed a vital tool for the dissemination of Christianity, and this is what Rappoport refers to when she vaguely writes that the Dutch "impos[ed] schools and Christianity".
• This continued until the Indonesian government legalized Hinduism, allowing the traditional Torjan religion to be classified as such due to its similarities – Two fatal errors here.
  • First, chronology. (Balinese) Hinduism was fully acknowledged by the state in 1962. At that very time and in the following years, Torajans rapidly turned to Christianity when they witnessed the terror inflicted by Kahar Muzakkar's Darul Islam troups in the neighboring Luwu area. This is alluded to by Rappoport when she talks about "fear of Muslim encroachment". The recognition of the traditional Aluk faith as "Hinduism" came later. It was a clever trick, exploiting the ignorance of the mostly Javanese regulators in Jakarta who thought of everything that preceded the spread of Islam in the archipelago as "Hinduism".
  • Secondly, Aluk is anything but similar to Hinduism; it is a genuinely indigenous belief system, and some aspects of its rituals must appear quite unpleasant to mainstream Hindus (such as the mass slaughter of cows and buffaloes during a funerary rite). Rappoport does not assert such a "similarity".

As a first remedy, I will remove the unsupported/distorted portions but leave the correct statements that frame them (The decline of the Torja religion began under missionary rule of the Dutch and most of the Torja had already been converted, and the traditional Torja religion is today only practiced by a small minority). But I will temporarily move them to a better position in the text.

In the long run, it would be great to have a subsection about the Christianization of the Torajans, but it should be based on sources that (unlike Rappoport) cover the topic not just in passing. – Austronesier (talk) 15:01, 4 August 2022 (UTC)