Talk:Transition from Ming to Qing/Archive 3
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I propose to revamp the material chronologically
All other war articles do not group sections by topic but rather put events chronologically in the year they happened after events progressed.
I propose that these sections like marriage and composition of the army be split up and mixed with the other material amready in the article. There would be no marriage section or rape section but things will be put in order the year they happened. If there was a marriage after a battle it is mentioned after the battle. If there was raping of kidnapped women it is mentioned after the battle and who fought and won the battle.
A third party user should actually do the edits.
This is only a preliminary example but the sections would look like these.Opasney (talk) 17:43, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
-Nurhaci's invasion of Liaodong-
In 1618 Han General Li Yongfang surrenders Fushun after an offer from Nurhaci and is married to Nurhaci's granddaughter and he and his soldiers are placed in the Banners.
Nurhaci conducts marriage alliances with the Khorchin Mongols. Khorchin Mongols are put into the Banners.
In 1626 Nurhaci dies after the battle of Ningyuan.
-Hong Taiji's campaigns-
In 1627 Hong Taiji invades Korea.
Han artillerymen defect to Hongtaiji and bring their cannons to the Later Jin and are placed in the Banners.
In 1631 Hong Taiji won the Battle of Dalinghe against Ming forts with the help of Han Banner artillery. Han Bannermen are called ujen coohai because of the battle.
In 1632 after Dalinghe Prince Yoto proposes marriage of defected Ming officials to daughters of Later Jin Beile and ministers and defected Ming soldiers to Han widows. Hong Taiji orders 1,000 women married to defectors.
In 1633 Han Generals Kong Youde, Geng Zhongming and their soldiers defect to the Qing and are put in the Banners. Shang Kexi defects to the Qing and is placed in the Banners. Shang Kexi and Geng Zhongming's sons are married to Aisin Gioro princesses.
In 1635 Chahar Mongol Ligdan Khan is defeated and dies. Ligdan Khan's son Ejei is married to an Aisin Gioro princess
In 1636 Hong Taiji declares the Qing dynasty and creates three seperate ethnic Eight Banners, Manchu, Mongol and Hanjun.
In 1636 Hong Taiji invades Korea.
People were captured when Pi island was raided.
-Dorgon's invasion of the Ming after Shanhai pass-
In 1644 Li Zicheng overthrew the Ming and takes the capital Beijing.
Wu Sangui defects to the Qing at Shanhai pass. His son Wu Yingxiong is married to an Aisin Gioro princess Princess Jianning. They are put into the Eight Banners. Wu Sangui and Dorgon defeat Li Zicheng and women get raped.
Most former Ming officials and soldiers in northern China defect to the Qing.
-Conquest of the southern Ming-
The second capital Nanjing is mostly peacefully taken after capitulating.
In 1645 Yangzhou is sacked for refusing to surrender after Han banner cannons bring down its walls and its people get massacred and women get kidnapped and raped by Han Banner and Manchu bannermen.
Haoge's archer assassinates Zhang Xianzhong in Sichuan who had 10 men with him after a defector Liu Jinzhong leads Haoge straight to his camp. Haoge leaves a defected Ming official and Green Standard Army soldiers to pacify Sichuan.
In 1648 a report to the Qing emperor states that 75% of the Eight Banners are Han.
Han Banner Generals like Kong Youde and Shang Kexi lead the conquest of southern China from southern Ming loyalists. Most of the soldiers in the armies which conquer southern Ming are Han with small Manchu detachments in the rear only used in battle if they are losing the battle.
Han Bannerman Meng Qiaofang conquers Gansu from Mi Layin and Ding Guodong.
In 1650 Han Banner general Shang Kexi leads mostly Han Bannermen to sack and massacre the people of Guangzhou after defeating Ming loyalists.
In 1662 Wu Sangui executes the Yongli Emperor after conquering Yunnan.
-Three Feudatories-
Three feudatories led by Wu Sangui, Shang Zhixin and Geng Jingzhong revolt. Most Han Green Standard army and Han Bannermen stay loyal to the Qing
Chahar Mongols led by Ligdan Khan's great grandsons revolt. Most other Mongols stay loyal to the Qing.
The Qing mobilize mostly 400,000 Han Green Standard Army, and smaller numbers of Han bannermen and Manchu bannermen to defeat the three feudatories. Rape of captured women happens.
Han Banner garrisons across important provincial cities like Guangzhou, Fuzhou and Zhenjiang are established.
-Post war-
In 1735 Qianlong demobilizes the Han Bannermen in the provincial garrisons in Guangzhou, Fuzhou, Zhenjiang and replaced them with Manchu bannermen. Han Bannermen in Beijing and Liaodong are exempted from demobilization.
Your above materials were still subjective, and you literally removed all my contributions and the part of bride taking. I have reiterated multiple times the difference between raping and bride taking, and you do not seem to have listened. I tried to have a normal discussion but all you just did is to revert my contributions and insert your own in another way. Thor's Axe (talk) 22:15, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Also about Shunzhi Emperor's policy: the current description of the policy wrongly gives only part of the original policy. Their was not a sexual duality applied to officers and Manchu males can marry the Han Chinese women related to an officer freely. It also does not restrict the marriage between Manchu men and civilian Han women. This part should be added to complete the policy. Thor's Axe (talk) 22:44, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
Wikipedia is not a historical book the records things chronically. What you did also bewilders the contributions from other editors and did not describe events in a logical and informative way, and failed to show the whole event in a way that is easy to understand. There are obviously many parts above highly improper:
- What Qainlong did to Han banner men should not be relevant.
- You omitted the two military campaign of Qing in 1636 and 1643, when they successfully reached central China, captured large amount of people (mostly women), and defeated a large number of Ming troops. It also indirectly resulted in the death of Yuan Chonghuan.
- While I agree raping might have happened, the large number of females captured and taken back to Manchuria were absolutely not just forced into sex for once. They became concubines or wives, and part of a Manchu family. Simply claiming they were raped was inaccurate.
- Your description of the role of Manchu troops as monitor and reserve force made a little sense. However it was wrong to claim Han generals lead the war. You should go back to the historical materials, and then you will see the highest ranked commanders were Manchus, and Kong, Shang, Wu were under their command. For instance Ajige was offered the title "征南大将军" (the general to conquer the south).
- Details of the death of Zhang Xianzhong need not be present.
- When you describe the military operations of Shang and other Han banner men, you should make it clear they were backed up, accompanied by and monitored by Manchu banner men.
Thor's Axe (talk) 22:15, 2 October 2018 (UTC)
- Yuan Chonghuan was executed after the 1629 raid on Beijing and four towns were captured in that raid, Yongping, Luanzhou, Qianan, Zunhua which led to several defections by Ming officers in Yongping. Han Bannerman Fan Wencheng and his cannons defended Daankou from the Ming in the same year as the raid and Fan was stationed to hold Zunhua during the raid on Beijing. The former Ming officer Meng Qiaofang from Yongping defected to the Later Jin along with Yang Shengyuan and Yang Wenkui after personally meeting Hong Taiji when Yangping was captured. Hong Taiji returned to Mukden and left Amin in charge of the four towns but Zu Dashou recaptured Luanzhuan, defeated Amin who then started massacring and raping the civilians in the other three towns and then abandoned them.
- Over half the battles starting from the conquest of Liaodong to 1683 were not mentioned here and need to be written. In the conquest of Pi Island the Qing won the battle after Han General Kong Youde and his Han bannermen landed on the east side of the island and distracted the entire Ming army on the island to come to his side allowing Ajige and Manchu bannermen to sneak in on the other side and overrun the garrisons and Shen Shikui. Pi island was originally commanded by Mao Wenlong and Shang, Geng and Kong were all Mao's former officers who defected to the Later Jin after his execution by Yuan Chonghuan. Shen Shikui's nephew Shen Zhixiang then defected to the Qing and fought against Li Zicheng.
- In Nurhaci's early invasion of Liaodong, Li Yongfang and his soldiers played a critical role in the capture of Liaoyang city by turning former Ming cannon on Ming positions.
- After Wu Sangui defected and Beijing was taken, the amount of Ming defectors swelled Qing ranks in northern China so the majority of Dodo's forces by the time he approached Yangzhou were former Ming soldiers with a minority of Han and Manchu bannermen. Big sections of the southern Ming army defected and there was little opposition in Nanjing. Gao Jie's 138,000 and Liu Liangwuo's 100,000 Han soldiers defected to Dodo. Ming defectors Ma Degong and Tian Xiong turned the southern Ming Emperor over to the Qing and were made Han bannermen. Ma Degong was sent south with his soldiers to fight against the Zheng family and he ordered massive pillaging and raping in Xiamen.
- Raping and pillaging were well established as a weapon against people who refused to surrender. Nurhaci said his soldiers would not rape in Fushun if the city voluntarily surrendered and Li Yongfang joined the Later Jin in his letter to Li Yongfang. It was a policy to make people give up.
- Dorothy Yin-yee Ko in her book Toward a Social History of Women in Seventeenth Century China uses the word rape for incidents of women being taken captive and taken as concubines during the war.
- Tong Yangxing's ethnicity is disputed. Some of his descendants claimed to be Jurchens who settled in Liaodong and assimilated into Han but other relatives like Tong Bunian denied this and claimed to be Han who came from the south. He also married an Aisin Gioro princess after defecting like Li Yongfang. Tong Bunian and Tong Yangxing were distant relatives according to Tong Guoqi.
- They did not differentiate between men, women and livestock in the major raids. The Manchus also raided for men to become booi and aha of Bannermen to farm at the estates of the Eight Banner princes in Mukden. Han taken as prisoners in the three feudatories campaign were sent to Mukden to farm crops at the Banner lords farms.
- Hong Taiji directed raids against the native people of the Amur in 1640 and captured 3,154 men, 2,713 women and 1,819 children. Those were placed in fishing and hunting banners for the Qing to give furs. The Russians raided there in 1652 and captured 361 Daur women and children.
Opasney (talk) 23:36, 3 October 2018 (UTC)
I do not see the usage of the statements above. They have not been verified aside, I do not see how they might affect the conclusions I draw. I will, once again, make clear about the changes I want to make:
- While raping might be raping in the war, it does not affect the end result, which is the large portion of Han Chinese women captured becoming wives and concubines of Manchu banner men.
- In the few military operations quoted above, the majority of captives were women and children. For instance in Pi island, among the captives there were 356 sailers, but totally 3116 women and children. ("水手三百五十六名, 妇女幼稚三千一百一十六口"). This is recorded in Qing Tai Zong Shi Lu, chapter 34.
- The Shun Zhi's policy should be fully presented. The current text does not include the part about the marriage between Han women and Manchu men. This is important because Han women faced less restrictions in the intermarriage. Which can be verified in Shuo Wang's work about Xiu Nu system.
- The ethnic background of the 1000 couples following Yoto's proposal is still in dispute. The lack of evidence ought to be mentioned and Yoto's proposal should be included.
- About the chronicle order: I do not see the necessity to reorganise the article to a large degree like that. You need consensus from other edits too.
- About the other battles: I acknowledge that it is your right to insert materials if you can properly verify your claims with reliable sources and no personal interpretations. However there are numerous battles occurred in the whole event and you need consensus to first decide which ones to include. I am not likely to participate in that part. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Thor's Axe (talk • contribs) 05:09, 4 October 2018 (UTC) Thor's Axe (talk) 04:20, 5 October 2018 (UTC)
Arbitrary break
@Opasney: This discussion got a little bit derailed, do you want to start it back up and describe how you propose to re-order information? Simonm223 (talk) 15:07, 9 October 2018 (UTC)