Talk:U.S. Route 9 in New York/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Historical notes

From 1925-1927 Automobile Blue Book route guides and maps

  • Early 1920s: Corresponds mainly to routing of old "Highway 6" from NYC to Rouses Point. Differences from current US 9 are:
    • Hwy 6 used current NY-32 from Albany to Mechanicville, NY-67 to Maltaville; Current US 9 from Albany to Maltaville was unnumbered prior to 1925.
    • Hwy 6 used current NY-9N from Elizabethtown to Keeseville; Current US 9 from Elizabethtown to Keeseville was unnumbered.
    • Hwy 6 used current NY-9B from Coopersville to Rouses Point; Current US 9 was unnumbered.
  • 1926-1927: Designation of US-9, US-9W and US-9E. US-9 from Waterford to Canadian border; US-9E follows path of old Hwy 6 from NYC to Rensselaer, then along then unnumbered road to Waterford (now numbered as US 4). Hwy 6 from Albany to Waterford became the northern end of US-9W (now NY-32).
    • Current Albany to Maltaville section (previously unnumbered) known as NY-9C. Designation lasted until 1930.
    • Elizabethtown to Keeseville on current routing by this time. Old Hwy 6 in this area (now NY-9N) became another US-9W (not the same as the more well-known, southern US-9W)
    • US-9 at this time still used current NY-9B but the designation now ends at the Canadian border where old PQ-9 begins.
  • 1931: By this time, except for northern terminus, US-9 basically the same route as it is today.
  • Late 1940s: Northern terminus moved to Champlain

Questions

Did the US 9E/US 9W split really start at Glens Falls? The maps in the 1926 and 1927 Blue Book indicate that when New York signed its US Highways, the split occured in Waterford. Does anyone know if 9E and 9W were actually signed to Glens Falls? Maybe Glens Falls was the original plan but never fully implemented? --Polaron | Talk 01:40, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Potential segments in route description

  • New York City
  • Westchester County line-Croton Expy
  • Croton Expy
  • Peekskill-Albany
  • Albany-Glens Falls
  • Adirondack Park
  • Northern edge of park to Canada

Some of these could probably be extended in one direction or the other. Thoughts? --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 20:55, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm doing it this way:
  • Hudson Valley
    • New York City
    • Westchester
    • Peekskill to Poughkeepsie (this segment is a marked break from what comes before and after as it moves inland and becomes a four-lane divided highway between I-84 and POK)
    • Poughkeepsie to Albany (a lot of territory to cover, but really little difference in the road)
  • North Country
    • Albany to Lake George (the northern limit of what I'd consider the Albany area in terms of the road
    • The Adirondack Park (between Lake George and Keeseville there is much less civilization but oh! the scenery)
    • Plattsburgh and Lake Champlain to Canada
Daniel Case 06:29, 19 February 2007 (UTC)

US 9E

The U.S. Route 9E article needs to be merged into this one. Can someone that has a good working knowledge of US 9's history perform the merge and add the 9E and 109 browse rows to the infobox? --TMF Let's Go Mets - Stats 18:20, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I've simply redirected here since most of the content is already in the history section. I still have not found any sources that indicate that 9E was in fact signed (as opposed to planned) to Glens Falls. --Polaron | Talk 19:55, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Photo request

I have gotten this article up as far as I can for the time being. I am adding it to my watchlist and putting the maintained tag up here.

Now that I'm done with the written improvements I wanted to make to this article, I have put up a request for photos here. Some we absolutely should have; others would be nice.

Article needs:

  • The Peekskill circle. I will see if I can get one next time I'm in the vicinity (which isn't often, alas)
    • Passed by today, but it was late and getting too dark and cloudy for good photography. You can shoot this one in its entirety from the road from Bear Mountain Parkway; however you'll have to park at one of the businesses on the circle and walk up — a road extremely ill-advised for pedestrian travel. But if I let that stop me, I wouldn't have half the pictures I have here. Daniel Case 05:30, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
      • It's technically the Annesville Circle. You could get a satellite view form http://www1.nysgis.state.ny.us/MainMap.cfm. How does government-owned imagery available to the public for free jive with the copyright policy? Triskele Jim 14:38, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
        • They replied to my query: "You can download and use the aerial photographs for any purpose as they are not copyrighted. The only thing we ask is that you acknowledge the NYS GIS Clearinghouse as your source. The acknowledgment should be printed directly on the map where practical. If it is not practical to print the acknowledgment on the map, it can be provided on another page. Simple wording can be used like NYS Aerial Photography used with permission from the NYS Office of CSCIC."Triskele Jim 12:20, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
        • Hmm. Most of that state stuff comes from the USGS anyway, so it's PD and usable (we've used one to show the general lay of the land around Slide Mountain). Let me check the source to make sure it's acknowledged as such there, and maybe later I'll put in.

          Of course, I prefer road-level shots of circles (as that is how most people encounter them), especially this one where you can see the signage and it's possible to see almost all the circle from a slight elevation. But a sat image would do until I can get that one.

Daniel Case 14:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

            • UPDATE: I got this picture last weekend. It's not as hard to get as I thought ... there's a boat put-in area on the southwest corner of the circle, and you can walk from there up to the Jan Peeck Bridge (yes, it has a name, so saith the historical marker on the south of the circle), and shoot away from the safety of the walkway.

              It'll be a while before I can upload it, though, since I have quite a few ahead of it in my personal queue. Daniel Case 00:48, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

            • It is now in the article. Daniel Case 05:36, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
  • The Dunn Memorial Bridge. Working on this with User:Fwgoebel, who lives in the area. Got it!
  • A stretch in the Adirondacks that shows both the scenic and lonely aspect of Route 9. Something where you can see a good bit of road ahead and some scenery. With no other traffic and preferably no development visible.
  • The final cul-de-sac. Not technically part of Route 9, but it once was, and is thus important to the history of Route 9. Plus I like the idea of showing, visually, where you'd end up if you took "Born to Run" literally. "Sprung from cages ...", indeed.

Article could use, but doesn't necessarily need:

  • Inwood. To show all the Spanish-English ad signs referred to in the text, and one of the US 9 shields along the street there. I go there frequently enough, actually, and might be able to get this one. Done today. Actually, the best Spanish ads are found in Hudson Heights, but the Dyckman Street intersection lends itself best to photography. Daniel Case 05:27, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
  • A stretch in Columbia County where it's nice and picturesque. The fields and orchards referred to. A nice little stretch of road, in warm weather of course, surrounding by blue skies and green fields. Something that tells us why people spend lots of money on second homes in the area.
    • Actually, based on driving this southbound two days ago (admittedly, not the direction of description, to say nothing of trying to make this call on a cloudy, cold spring evening in dusk and twilight), I see two places to get this sort of picture. One is where the road goes between a nice white farmhouse and red barn a little bit north of Red Hook; the other is just south of Hudson and the cement plant where there are two red barns on one side, and woods on the other, at a slight dip in the road. Daniel Case 17:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
      • I have the former one now, although with the bumper crop of images I have been able to take this summer, it may be a while till I am able to add it. Daniel Case 16:21, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
      • I have finally added it. Daniel Case 17:00, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
  • A stretch along Lake Champlain. Road, water and a good view.

*Latham Circle. Not what it once was, but still might be a nice complement to Peekskill.

    • Given that I have seen it now, I doubt you could take a good picture of it, save from a helicopter above. Daniel Case 22:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

*The former stub end of the Dunn Bridge to put in the history section for the Crosstown Arterial. Have this but haven't put in yet. Daniel Case 05:31, 23 March 2007 (UTC) OK, did that a while ago. Daniel Case 17:24, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

  • Plattsburgh City Hall now that that contradictorily-copyrighted one is gone. Daniel Case 22:49, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Just my suggestions. Daniel Case 06:39, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

This is going better than I expected. I also added a picture of 9 as Broadway underneath the subway line in the Bronx (I intend to go back to that spot at some point in time and take a picture nearby where there's a 9 shield alongside the road). And since I mention it in the text, can we get a pic of that junction with 448 where there are four very big signs telling yout to bear left to stay on 9 north? I love that. Daniel Case 20:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

I have that last one now. Easier done if you just take a picture of two of the signs. Daniel Case 03:22, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
In article now. Daniel Case 20:25, 26 October 2007 (UTC)


Question about Photo
The photo captioned Croton Expressway doesn't look like it's the Croton Expressway. The photo has streetlights, and the Croton Expressway has almost no streetlights. The photo looks more like Poughkeepsie, heading northbound just north of the South Ave. / Academy St. interchange. (See the bird's eye view on msn.com.) --Usroadman (talk) 21:51, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

There are streetlights around the exits. The hills in the background look to me like the ones north of Peekskill.

Granted, it came from someone on Flickr so I can't verify it precisely, but I'm comfortable saying it's Croton. Worse comes to worse, I can always go down there in warm weather and take one myself. Daniel Case (talk) 04:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Actually, given the context it's in on Flickr, you might be right. That hill in the back looks like it might be in Highland. Oh well, I'll just move the picture and take one of the Croton Expressway myself later. Daniel Case (talk) 04:26, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

GA in the future?

I believe this article would be a good GA candidate if some of the language were toned down a bit and made more WP:NPOV-compliant. With more references, perhaps it could even pass a FAC. —Scott5114↗ 17:38, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

We're working on it — actually, my current concern is that I feel more references may be needed. But could you be helpful and point to some examples of what you're referring to?

Funny you should mention this today, too, as I just got back from a trip to Albany with my son in which we returned via Route 9 all the way to Poughkeepsie, which should help give that section more local detail. Daniel Case 02:19, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Saratoga Springs' picturesque downtown...all favorites with tourists in-season...a tricky four-way intersection...things like that. Also, I was a bit surprised by the use of inland referring to distance from the Hudson River. —Scott5114↗ 20:38, 7 April 2007 (UTC)
OK, not a problem to fix those (or find a source calling downtown Saratoga Springs "picturesque", which it is, as you'd expect from a longtime old-money summer resort). As for "inland", consider that the Hudson below Troy (not coincidentally, the navigable portion) is not really a river so much as an estuary, like an extremely long version of Delaware Bay. It's a wide river at Albany and a very wide river down where I live, reaching almost 3 miles (5 km) at Haverstraw Bay. Henry Hudson thought it might be a strait, and in the lower valley where crossings come at least 20-30 miles apart and require that you pay a toll it indeed feels like something you are "inland" of. I describe the village where I live as "12 miles inland" from Newburgh, and no one has ever batted an eye. Daniel Case 21:51, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Roundabouts vs traffic circles

The northerly intersections with NY 9H and NY 67 are properly referred to as modern roundabouts, not traffic circles. See https://www.nysdot.gov/portal/page/portal/main/roundabouts.

Triskele Jim 20:18, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, but what do the people who live near it call it? Daniel Case 21:27, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

OK, this article uses roundabout for that junction. It stays in (CTTOI, the article would be an excellent source). Daniel Case 21:59, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Notes for GA reviewers

I would call this a partial self-nom. Besides myself, I extend credit to User:TwinsMetsFan, coordinator of the New York State highways project, for his work on formatting the junction table and the notes, and User:Polaron for the history section. I wrote the route description and either took or found most of the photos.

It is, as the tags above note, a onetime selected article of the project. I honestly feel, and I believe my coeditors would agree, that it's the best one in the project at this point. We hope you will see it as meriting that little green disc with the plus sign (and yes, I do think that with some more improvements it can be a featured article).

To address some possible concerns:

Length: Yes, it's long as measured by raw byte-count. But remember also that WP:SIZE says that tables and references don't count. And using the quick-and-dirty method of measurement of actual text suggested there, I came up with about 32-33K of actual text, well within the guidelines, once you exclude the junction table and the footnotes.

Lack of map: As noted above. The editor who created the main map of U.S. Route 9 has indicated he will be back from wikibreak soon, and I will see if he can take the time to create a state version of the map.

Any other issues, let me know. Daniel Case 04:51, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

GA

I've passed this article because the overall reliability, state, and clarity of the writing is good. There are still some things that need some improvement on, though:

  • Let's get some more references like map links into the route description.
  • Try finding historical maps to supplement the history, if NYSDOT provides them though.
  • As nominated, this article may be a bit long. It could be helpful if the route and junction/exit lists be moved into a new article, and have an overview of the route here. The history could also be split off as well, unless if it stays short as it is now. Everything else right now can stay.
  • If a map is really that urgent, we can submit a request to the MTF request page, and 25or6to4 will likely do the map.

Those are my tips for this article's future. V60 干什么？ · VDemolitions · VRoads (路) 07:10, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

PoJo article for future reference

http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/BUSINESS05/602260341 About the economic potential and effect of Route 9 in Dutchess County south of Poughkeepsie. Daniel Case (talk) 15:42, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:U.S. Route 9 in New York/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

This review is part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force/Sweeps, a project devoted to re-reviewing Good Articles listed before August 26, 2007.

  1. Is it reasonably well written?
    A. Prose quality:
    Examples include "The nature of the Adirondack Park becomes apparent once Lake George is past", "allowing a commercial-vehicle-accessible means of travel", and "US 9 has had as many as 16 suffixed routes" among others.
    B. MoS compliance:
    Introduction is too short, see WP:LEAD for more info.
  2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?
    A. References to sources:
    B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:
    Numerous unsourced claims within the route description include "Conspicuous Spanish-language advertising testifies to the heavy Latin American immigrant population in the area" and "Villa Lewaro, the home of the first African-American millionaire".
    C. No original research:
    Unsourced statements may contain original research.
  3. Is it broad in its coverage?
    A. Major aspects:
    B. Focused:
    Route description could be trimmed, lots of detail here, some of these details might be unnecessary.
  4. Is it neutral?
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. Is it stable?
    No edit wars, etc:
  6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?
    A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:
    B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:
  7. Overall:
    Pass or Fail:
    After careful consideration, I am de-listing this article. Normally I would offer a seven-day period to make improvements, but in this case I think an immediate de-listing is warranted. --ErgoSum•talk•trib 18:20, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Extension at north end

Looking at the north end on Bing Bird's Eye, it would seem more recent photos than Google's have been used and ... the road has been extended a couple of hundred feet beyond the cul-de-sac to end in a parking area, about 400 feet south of the border, for some sort of facility that has been built (again) since the Google photos were taken. Anybody with any better info on this? Should we amend the article appropriately? Daniel Case (talk) 04:34, 28 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't think it's that significant, especially if the extension wasn't the DOT's doing. If there were print sources that discussed the new facility and/or the extension, I'd give it some thought, but at this moment I don't think it's worth mentioning. (And if the last sentence of the RD is now an issue, I'd just reword it so it has no mention of how far the end is from the border. Saying the end is "within view" of the border is sufficient enough IMO.) – TMF 06:56, 30 October 2010 (UTC)
Well, the extension doesn't appear to be gated off, so that part of the road can no longer be called a cul-de-sac. It would seem from the current view that the parking lot is now the end of the road, so I'll just make the "within view" change. (Of course, having some field inspection would help). Daniel Case (talk) 14:37, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Untitled comments

I am proposing to streamline the route description. We need to keep most of the historic landmarks in it, but alot of the detail can be cut out. Any objections? PointsofNoReturn (talk) 01:17, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Why? The RD is surprisingly good (I'd never actually looked at it before today). Someone new to the wiki could stand to take a few tips from US 9's route description as how to do it right. –Fredddie™ 01:33, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
It needs minor work, some citations missing and the such, but not that much work. Second, you're really a rookie editor, you need to take time to adapt. However, my suggestion is you work in another state than NY, because there are more articles to practice on, such as CT or MA. Mitch32(Any fool can make a rule, And any fool will mind it.) 02:54, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
The only reason I'm suggesting this is because the previous reassesment of the article thought it was too long. I personally like it though.

PointsofNoReturn (talk) 17:17, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Citing photographs

Is it possible to use google maps to cite photographs by using the street view function? If so, it could solve a lot of problems. Of course, I'm not sure if the google maps street view can be used for the photographs already taken. Any thoughts? On a side not, are photographs of "our own work" acceptable sources? PointsofNoReturn (talk) 22:24, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

I have done that in some other articles, although you have to add a note to the {{cite map}} telling people to use street view.

Yes, images we create ourselves are acceptable sources as long as they are not meant to be proofs of original research. See WP:OI. Daniel Case (talk) 00:31, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

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