Talk:UAAP Season 86 basketball tournaments

On imports and what to call and link to UP Diliman teams

User:Aeron Valderrama has been insistent on Damnatio memoriae of the term "import" in favor of "Foreign Student Athlete", and using University of the Philippines (the article is about a university system) over University of the Philippines Diliman (the actual university represented in the UAAP), both with the arguments "this is what the UAAP wants". Firstly, this is not an article naming issue, but it reeks of WP:OFFICIAL, and we don't follow "official names" unless it that name is the one that is predominantly used. See for example Czech Republic vs. Czechia, Cape Verde vs. Cabo Verde, Turkey vs. Turkiye, etc.

Now, for imports, that term is the clear winner over the neologism that is "foreign student athlete". Even Pido Jarencio used it himself in an interview (this is a translation, and we actually don't know what Jarencio said himself in Tagalog presumably, but the translation used this term). Quinito Henson used the term himself in 2022. The People's Journal used the term in 2022. This term isn't going away and we are obligated to use what the WP:RS are using, and not what is being imposed (unless they are successful).

As for "University of the Philippines", this is personal sticking point for me, but we should always use what the actual article name is. This is because we had settled on it. University of the Philippines Diliman even had an WP:RM. Using another article title in prose is of obvious defiance to the RM; if you think the article title is wrong, create another RM: maybe ask to move University of the Philippines Diliman to "University of the Philippines (university)" then "University of the Philippines to "University of the Philippines (system)"?

There's also UAAP precedent where Jun Limpot played for De La Salle Green Archers while being enrolled in De La Salle–College of Saint Benilde (this was before CSB was in the NCAA, but I'm not sure if they already had a basketball program at that time). The UAAP board ruled that since CSB had a separate set of board of trustees, then it is an entirely different institution; in UP system's case, each university is a university and not a campus. You can argue "UP Diliman represents every UP university", but the UAAP would not allow UPLB or UP Manila students to play in the UAAP. You can argue "UAAP coverage doesn't refer to UP Diliman as 'UP Diliman' but just 'UP'," which I'd concede, so I'd push for linking to University of the Philippines Diliman but pipelinking it to just "University of the Philippines". Howard the Duck (talk) 05:43, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

RE: UAAP would not allow UPLB or UP Manila students to play in the UAAP. - This is not a proven case as there was not an instance of this scenario, at least in recent years. The association actually allowed students from UE Caloocan to play in the UAAP through its softball team, and not just students from UE Manila. Though, we might argue that Caloocan and Manila are just "campuses" of UE.

RE: I'd push for linking to University of the Philippines Diliman but pipelinking it to just "University of the Philippines". - This is the best compromise. Aeron Valderrama (talk) 09:57, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

The UP Fighting Maroons were formerly based in Manila. I was actually going to ask this in the UP page on when the transfer happened. In non-sporting contexts, AFAIK, Diliman and Manila field in separate teams; I know for a fact they have separate teams in debating, for example. They even have different school newspapers.

UE Caloocan vs UE Manila: I suppose it is the same university but on a separate campus. (See for the Jun Limpot example on how the UAAP arrived at the distinction; DLSU and CSB are within one "campus" but are different juridical persons.) This is the same analogy for STI in NAASCU where they get their players from everywhere as those "branches" are merely "campuses" of one institution. The universities comprising the UP system are different because those are different universities: it's as if the difference between Adamson and NU. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:51, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

RE: "Imports" - We know that the noelogism has not yet gained traction as it is a term just being used by the association as such instance of "foreign student-athletes" no longer exists in the NCAA Philippines and IS NOT NECESSARY in other interc-collegiate or inter-university leagues or systems in the rest of the world. But, the neologism is coined in the direction of inclusvity and to remove the adverse connotation of the term in the context of AMATEUR sports, which the associaton belongs to. Aeron Valderrama (talk) 10:01, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

You admitted this yourself that it has not gained traction. Wikipedia describes and not prescribes. We're not here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. UAAP figures use this term without bias or inkling of discrimination. "Import" is universally used in basketball (and other sports) leagues of all levels. Even in barangay leagues, this is used, referring to those players from outside that barangay. The UAAP is not special and exempt. Let's not treat this as some sport of UAAP exceptionalism. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:55, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

Also, we'd have to add the term "import" on the article. At this point, it's laughable that you are doing a damnatio memoriae of North Korean proportions. You don't even permit it to be added on the article. It's not just Filipinos who read the article, and articles should be universally understood. This is way over WP:OWNership already.

Also the fact you have to add scare quotes in "foreign student-athletes" says a lot. Howard the Duck (talk) 19:24, 17 October 2023 (UTC)

I just put them in scare quotes for your benefit. Aeron Valderrama (talk) 07:26, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

Well of course you did. Are we doing a Herostratus and banning a perfectly legal and straight up English word over a euphemism? Howard the Duck (talk) 19:34, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

It's been more than a month. Are there any other arguments here aside from "Let's make an exception because it's the UAAP and we shouldn't be racist" or maybe "UAAP is amateur and 'imports' only refer to professionals" (Imports are prevalent in barangay leagues, FWIW)? Howard the Duck (talk) 01:35, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

TV women's semifinals

This was derisively bashed in social media, with the 1st games not even being aired on UAAP Varsity Channel. Here are One Sports's schedules on November 25 and November 22 and neither list the UAAP women's basketball semifinals. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:35, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

Here was UAAP Varsity Channel's November 22 schedule, and it did not list any of the women's semifinals. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:38, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

@Howard the Duck thanks for the verification, I will remove the TV params on Women's tournament. ♒️ 98TIGERIUS 🐯 13:23, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

We should probably get better sources on TV listings rather than the UAAP's official Twitter account; men's games are indisputable and most probably can be left uncited unless it's an exceptional claim (like it being aired on the main TV5 channel rather than just One Sports.

(See also WP:TWITTER: this is not exclusively UAAP alone, but involves a third party, i.e. One Sports. For TV listings, if we'd be using self-published sources, we'd have to use sources from the TV channel per se.) Howard the Duck (talk) 01:32, 26 November 2023 (UTC)