Talk:Ur-organism

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Definition of Ur-organism[edit]

Since my suggestion of a few days ago to merge this article with the article on Last Universal Ancestor (LUCA) I have been assailed by doubts that the two terms in fact hold the same meaning. I have begun discussions at Talk:Last universal ancestor (specifically here and here) on the topic of this question but thus far we have not reached any sort of consensus as to the definition of "ur-organism."

In examining the history of this article it seems that the original definition of the term was given by Kazvorpal as "the hypothetical 'first life' species, from which all other life presumably evolved." Kazvorpal also suggests (without source) that the originator of the term was Darwin. This definition suggests that perhaps there is a difference between the ur-organism and the LUCA, however subsequent to this edit, IP-editor 60.50.197.162 modified the definition in such a way that it is strongly suggested that the terms "ur-organism" and "LUCA" are identical. Following 60.50.197.162's edit, another IP-editor, 137.205.132.170, appears to endorse this view as he modifies the suggested dates of emergence of the ur-organism to coincide with the possible dates of emergence of the LUCA. (NB - This may not serve to endorse 60.50.197.162's view so much as it serves to advance the notion that the ur-organism and the LUCA could hypothetically be the same organism.) At any rate, I am not sure how reliable 137.205.132.170's edit can be considered taking into account his history of vandalism, POV/OR edits, and WP:RS violations. Perhaps this demonstrates an inappropriate bias on my part, but it seems most likely to me that the semi-anonymous IP-edits have altered the definition from Kazvorpal's original definition erroneously.

Kazvorpal's definition of "ur-organism," however, troubles me as well. From this description I am unable to determine if the ur-organism is the first instance of life in the universe, the first instance of life on earth, or the first ancestor common to all life currently on earth. I have addressed this concern in detail here. In examining Darwin's Origin of Species and much of Descent of Man, I am unable to find any example of Darwin using the term. The scant reliable-source-material online suggests that the term "ur-organism" means the first ancestor common to all life currently on earth, however there are an overwhelming number of confusing, misleading, and unrelated webpages which employ the term in a variety of ways contradictory to this definition. We are in need of a concise and accurate definition for this term and with this definition we will be able to make an informed decision about the fate of this article.

I suggest that:

The article should be merged with the article on abiogenesis if ur-organism turns out to mean the first instance of life in the universe.
The article should be remain but be re-written with the correct definition if ur-organism means the first instance of life on earth or if it means the first ancestor common to all life currently on earth.
The article should be merged with the article on Last universal ancestor if ur-organism means the last common ancestor of all living organisms.

This issue is further complicated by the consideration that the first instance of life in the universe, and the earthly FLO, FUA, and LUA (as I define them here) could, all four, hypothetically be the same organism. I believe that this is quite unlikely, myself, but I also believe that it would be extraordinarily difficult to definitively prove either way. In any case, it might be redundant to have separate articles on all of these terms.

If anyone can provide sources to a clear definition of this term, please contribute. -Thibbs (talk) 21:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to LUCA[edit]

This Article is a Stub anyway. Let's redirect it to LUCA. Could an Admin please comment and/or perform the Merger/Redirect? The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 01:51, 30 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]