Talk:Vrishni heroes

Starting the article

Balarama on left, Krishna holding the Govardhana

Vrsni viras in a Hindu temple

@Ms Sarah Welch: I keep seeing this "Five Vrishni Heroes" story popping up, so I went ahead with a stub, but I don't have much information or background on the subject. I thought you might... Help welcome! पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 07:31, 14 December 2019 (UTC)

@पाटलिपुत्र: After presenting the Luders theory, further on page 213, Quintanilla explains her doubts. She mentions Sanskrit found in the inscription (the early Jain language was not Sanskrit) and then states the ancient Mora torso could either be Jaina or Bhagavata. In the contemporary context, the Vrsni viras remain an active part of Hindu folklore and temple iconography. The Mahabalipuram Krishna mandapam features both Balarama and Krishna. Some Vaishnava temples show them together inside the sanctum. Onam, the Hindu festival in Kerala, for example, celebrates Balarama and Krishna together every year. Etc etc. Contemporary Jainism and Jain temples do not give them the same significance. A more balanced version would mention the plausible ancient Jaina-Hindu overlap and the Bhagavata theories. Plus, we should mention their contemporary significance. All citing the sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:48, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi @Ms Sarah Welch:. Thank you for the interesting discussion. I do not dispute the importance of the Vrishni heroes in Hinduism, but their origin is much less certain. Lüders seems to have quite a strong argument for the Jain attribution, reinforced by the overwhelming Jain presence in Mathura around that time. Quintanilla only concedes that the Sanskrit language, rather than hybrid Pali-Sanskrit, may possibly point to a more Brahmanical authorship, but that's also very hypothetical. And she clearly says that the Vrishnis may well have been cross-sectarian, like the Yakshas, and may have had nothing to do at all with Vaisnava theology as a conclusion. Overall, I like the way Upinder Singh presents the Vrishni heroes in a neutral fashion: "Five heroes (pancha-viras) worshipped by the Vrishnis of the Mathura area" in Singh, Upinder (2008). A History of Ancient and Early Medieval India: From the Stone Age to the 12th Century. Pearson Education India. p. 436-438. ISBN 978-81-317-1120-0.. It is historically accurate and does not "highjack" the Vrishni heroes with a Vishnaite attribution, which seems to have been a later phenomenon. Anyway the introduction remains very strongly tilted torward the Vishnaite attribution, which comes immediately after the 2-lines Upinder Singh-like neutral introductory sentence, thus giving proper reverence to the Vishnaite phenomenon. Thank you for the images by the way! पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 17:36, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Best to state both in the lead: the cross-sectarian (Jain-Vaishnava) and the Bhagavata. Improves the NPOV. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 17:45, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Your introduction as it stands [1] makes it sound as if "the Vrishnis near Mathura in 3rd-century BCE were worshipping a group of five legendary heroes of the Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism." That's very different from what the sources are saying. Also, I don't think that the "cross-sectarian" attribution mentioned by Quintanilla should necessarily be reduced to "Jain-Hinduism", as local heroe worship for example is also clearly described as a possibility. पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 18:08, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

I do not see Luders primary research as widely accepted and mainstream. We can mention his theory in the main article, but for the lead and the main summary, we need to stick to the secondary sources such as Quintanilla's analysis of Luders and her comments. I do not see the local hero – outside of Bhagavata and/or Jaina – as the majority or significant minority view of the mainstream scholars. Vrsni viras are generally seen by scholars as related to Vaishnavism. But, if you can find and provide additional sources with page numbers, I will review them and reconsider. Is this clearer:

The Vrishni heroes (IAST: Vṛṣṇi Viras),[6] also referred to as Pancha-viras (IAST: Pañcavīras),[6] are a group of five legendary heroes in Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism.[6][7][8] The earliest worship of the heroes is attestable in the clan of the Vrishnis near Mathura by about 3rd-century BCE.[1][6][9] Their ancient worship has been variously proposed as either a cross-sectarian (Jainism–Hinduism) tradition or the Bhagavata tradition (Hinduism).[10]

I am open to alternates. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:45, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

We have to maintain historical veracity and avoid some unfounded suggestion that "Vishnaite deities were worshipped since the 3rd century BCE by the Vrishnis". Per Upinder Singh (p.436) "The history of Vishnuism involved the gradual coming together of the initially independent cults of various deities such as Narayana, Vasudeva Krishna, Shri, and Lakshmi. The importance given to Vishnu seems to have been a later development...". And of course, even besides the question of Vaishnavism, there are multiple theories about the nature of the Vrishni heroes. In keeping with Quintanilla, Rosenfield and Upinder Singh, and to develop from your proposal we could say something like:

The Vrishni heroes (IAST: Vṛṣṇi Viras),[6] also referred to as Pancha-viras (IAST: Pañcavīras),[6] were a group of five legendary heroes whose earliest worship is attestable in the clan of the Vrishnis near Mathura by about 3rd-century BCE.[1][6][9] Their ancient worship has been variously described as either cross-sectarian, Jain, Vishnaite, or the devotion to local historical heroes.[10] They are an important component of the Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism.[6][7][8]

Although for the lead I prefer something more straighforward where we just say that the Vrishni worshipped these heroes, and that they became very important in Vaishnavism [2].

The "local hero" interpretation appears in Upinder Singh: "It is possible that the core legends that were eventually associated with Vasudeva Krishna grew around a historical figure belonging to the Vrishni clan" (p.436), and according to Rosenfield, the five heroes of the Vrishnis may have been ancient historical rulers in the region of Mathura, and Vasudeva and Krishna "may well have been kings of this dynasty as well" (pp 151-152) पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 19:34, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

Vishnaite is not the common scholarly term, Vaishnava and Vaishnavism are. Nowhere is the article stating "Vishnaite deities were worshipped since the 3rd century BCE by the Vrishnis". I sense you want to make sure that no sentence can be carelessly misinterpreted that way. Please note the subtitle on that p.436: "The Formation of Vaishnava Pantheon", with the first para discussing the Vedas. In other words, the context is Vaishnavism. It is fringe-y to de-link Vrsni viras (Krishna, Baladeva etc) from contemporary Vaishnavism. Upinder Singh and others are merely saying that the legends may have been about real heroic human beings in Indian history. How is the following:

"The Vrishni heroes (IAST: Vṛṣṇi Viras),[6] also referred to as Pancha-viras (IAST: Pañcavīras),[6] are a group of five legendary, deified heroes who are found in the literature and archaeological sites of ancient India.[11] Their earliest worship is attestable in the clan of the Vrishnis near Mathura by about 3rd-century BCE.[1][6][9] This worship has been variously proposed as either a cross-sectarian (Jainism–Hinduism) tradition or the Bhagavata tradition (Hinduism).[10] Legends are associated with these deified heroes, some of which may be based on real, historical heroes of the Vrishni clan.[12] They and their legends – particularly of Krishna and Balarama – have been an important part of the Vaishnava tradition of Hinduism.[6][7][8]

Let me check on the 3rd century BCE – or should it be 5th century BCE – a bit more (see page 119–120 of Flood, e.g.). Should we merge this article into Vrishni? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 21:37, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

OK with this last version. Sounds like 4th century BCE would be OK, given Flood, but we'll have to present his arguments in the body of the article. Vrishni is normally an article about the ethnical group (coins, maps etc..., just like Yaudheya for example), whereas the "Vrishni heroes" is about a small team of deifed heroes who happen to belong to this ethnicity and form a major religious phenomenon of their own, so I don't think a merge would be appropriate or necessary. Thanks! पाटलिपुत्र Pat (talk) 05:51, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

I will update the lead para shortly. We should add a summary Vrishni heroes section to that Vrishni article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 09:42, 16 December 2019 (UTC)