Talk:Waffen-SS foreign volunteers and conscripts

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Exemption for those conscripted after 1943[edit]

"Waffen-SS conscripts sworn in after 1943 were exempted from the judgement owing to their conscription." This seems like an important sentence, but is very vague. Does it apply everywhere? or only certain countries? Is there a SPECIFIC DATE involved? Does "after 1943" mean beginning in January, 1944. Is there a reference?

Disputing this article's accuracy[edit]

This article is certainly wrong in many ways. Here's just two examples.

1. The British Free Corps had ~1500 members? Wikipedia's own page on the BFC says it had something like 57. Why, then, is the number inflated by a factor of almost 30 on this page? 2. There was an Irish brigade of the SS with 400 members? That seems fanciful at best, but it's wrong, without doubt, to include Irish volunteers under the United Kingdom bullet. Ireland is not part of the UK.

Did you check the relevant citations for the numbers issue? Ireland isn't part of the UK, but numerous ethnic Irish live in Northern Ireland, and the Irish of the Free State volunteered in the British Army during ww2, leading to ostracisation post war Kind Regards, NotAnotherNameGuy (talk) 21:51, 7 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Serbian volunteers[edit]

Hi @Obenritter I cannot find the content supporting the participation of Serbian volunteers within the Prinz Eugen Division, All I could find on the source provided (Gilbert 242-243) was: On October 1942 the division … was 92 percent Volksdeutsche, the remaining percentage coming from Reich Germans occupying senior or technical positions maybe you meant a different page or I could also have a different edition! would you mind double checking? thank you Aeengath (talk) 13:19, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, they were ethnic Germans living in Serbia that helped form the Prinz Eugen Division. So Serbian is misleading if not a misnomer in this case if one is thinking in terms of ethnicity. However, they would have still be counted among Serbians, as it stands, geographically speaking. Actually, many of the Waffen-SS volunteers were ethnically German but of varying nationalities. This raises the question, do such persons constitute Serbians? If we're thinking along racial lines like the Nazis would have...perhaps not, but in a modern context, people of varying ethnicity stemming from Canada but fighting abroad would be labeled Canadians, right? So what you are trying to say is that because these volunteers are of German ancestry, they're not from Serbia? Maybe this whole article should be scrapped if we're using their genetic lineage as indicators of nationality. Thoughts? --Obenritter (talk) 20:42, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Obenritter It is indeed a misnomer as they were Volksdeutsche from Serbia, they also came from Croatia, Hungary, and Romania. The multi-ethnic composition of Yugoslavia adds another layer of complexity to the discussion but according to the Yugoslav census of 1931, some 21.64 percent of the Bačka's population and 20.58 percent of the Western Banat's population were "German".[2]
I agree with you that in a modern context, individuals fighting abroad would be labeled based on their nationality, but the motives behind joining the Waffen-SS, are more complex due to the ideological and ethnic motivations behind volunteering. Aeengath (talk) 11:13, 4 May 2024 (UTC) edited Aeengath (talk) 12:59, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed their motivations were very different, but I think the point is that these people were technically Serbian from a geopolitical perspective, which is why the authors imply there were "Serbian" persons serving this way. Do we then delete the Serbian Waffen-SS units from this list due them being Volksdeutsche, as I see no other way to reconcile this matter. We either accept them as people stemming from their more recent geographical home or we do not. Anyone else have any input here? --Obenritter (talk) 15:59, 4 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The majority of foreign Waffen-SS divisions consisted of individuals without recognised states (Belarusians, Ukrainians, Latvians, Estonians, Georgians, Azerbaijanis, Tatars, Cossacks, etc.) It is unclear which countries or regions this subsection is referring to, from what period and why it includes Caucasian and Turkic peoples. A clearer presentation could involve a list similar to Waffen-SS divisions by number. Volksdeutsche can be listed according to their region of origin, as this seems to be the common practice in most sources. Aeengath (talk) 05:23, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to improve the Foreign Waffen-SS units section[edit]

Following the previous conversation with @Obenritter I suggest converting the section Foreign Waffen-SS units recruited by Nazi Germany into a list/table format, as shown below. I believe this change would improve clarity and conciseness in that section of the article while also addressing inaccuracies. Aeengath (talk) 16:51, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Foreign Waffen-SS formations and foreign units under SS control[edit]

@Obenritter; @ Kierzek; @ Brigade Piron list proposal and new name for foreign units section

Designation Formation Personnel Peak size Notes
33rd Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS Charlemagne Feb 1945[1] French[2] 7,340[3] Formed from LVF, Brigade Frankreich and other French military collaborators.[3]
30th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Belarusian) Aug 1944[4] Belarusian, Polish, Russian, and Ukrainian[4] 10,000[5] Formed from Schutzmannschaft-Brigade Siegling personnel[6]
7th SS Volunteer Mountain Division Prinz Eugen March 1942[7] 92% Ethnic Germans[8] (Volksdeutsche) from the Serbian Banat, Croatia, Hungary and Romania.[9] with some Reich German cadres[10] 20,624[10]

References

  1. ^ Littlejohn 1987, p. 172.
  2. ^ Zabecki 2015, p. 709.
  3. ^ a b Littlejohn 1987, p. 170.
  4. ^ a b Rein 2011, p. 370.
  5. ^ Savin, Kyryl (23 March 2021). [1]. Deutsche Welle. Retrieved 30 October 2023.
  6. ^ Tessin & Kannapin 2000, p. 105.
  7. ^ Zakić 2017, p. 223.
  8. ^ Gilbert 2019, pp. 242–243.
  9. ^ McNab 2009, p. 220.
  10. ^ a b Zakić 2017, p. 225.

Bibliography[edit]

  • Gilbert, Adrian (2019). Waffen-SS: Hitler’s Army at War. New York: Da Capo Press. ISBN 978-0-30682-465-4.
  • Littlejohn, David (1987). Foreign Legions of the Third Reich Vol. 1 Norway, Denmark, France. Bender Publishing. ISBN 978-0-912138-17-6.
  • McNab, Chris (2009). The SS: 1923–1945. Amber Books Ltd. ISBN 978-1-906626-49-5.
  • Rein, Leonid (2011). The Kings and the Pawns: Collaboration in Byelorussia During World War II. Berghahn Books. ISBN 978-0857450432.
  • Tessin, Georg; Kannapin, Norbert (2000). Waffen-SS und Ordnungspolizei im Kriegseinsatz 1939-1945 (in German). Osnabrück: Biblio Verlag. doi:10.1080/13518040701378360. S2CID 144741225.
  • Zabecki, D.T. (2015). World War II in Europe: An Encyclopedia. Military History of the United States. Taylor & Francis. ISBN 978-1-135-81242-3.
  • Zakić, M. (2017). Ethnic Germans and National Socialism in Yugoslavia in World War II. Cambridge University Press. ISBN 978-1-107-17184-8.

Aeengath (talk) 16:58, 6 May 2024 (UTC) edited Aeengath (talk) 19:41, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Looks promising to me. Kierzek (talk) 20:14, 6 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Good idea Aeengath and better, if not more accurate representation to me as well. --Obenritter (talk) 19:03, 7 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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