Talk:Whitewashing in film

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References to use[edit]

References to use. Erik (talk | contrib) (ping me) 21:25, 17 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

"References to use"?
'user :Erik', are you the Wikipedia Thought Police? Do we need you to tell the rest of the community which sources to use on a subject that is inevitably contentious?
Some might consider sources like 'The Guardian' and 'BBC' to be biased.92.28.16.157 (talk) 19:43, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All sources are biased because there is no such thing as an impartial human 2406:E002:5FF1:C501:244B:C6AE:1A3B:CC42 (talk) 21:27, 11 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Dutch-Jewish actor Michiel Huisman plays a Turkish lieutenant."[edit]

which one is supposed to be the non-white one?

IDK where you're from, or what standards you're judging from, but in countries like Canada, Turks are considered "Asian" and thus, people of colour. If there are reliable sources calling his casting "whitewashing", then I don't see why it can't be added. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 11:13, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Jewish people have their ethnic and genetic roots in the Middle East, while ancestry in the Republic of Turkey is largely from Southern Europe. You can read about this elsewhere on Wikipedia (Jewish roots, Turkish roots). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:197:900:93C0:F19B:2DE5:538A:FD63 (talk) 17:16, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Some very tenuous "examples"[edit]

Some of the alleged examples of whitewashing are extremely tenuous, e.g.:

  • "Nightflyers" is only very loosely based on the original novella and most of the characters differ from the (short) original story.
  • In "Avengers: Age of Ultron" the characters Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver were originally white and only portrayed as Romani in some later media, which is even stated in the reference.
  • The character Raiden in "Mortal Kombat" is a not even human, let alone Japanese.

There are a plenty of compelling examples of whitewashing in media and including these dubious references undermines the validity of this list.

I also noticed “Stonewall” was included. People argue that the writer is erasing the history of the Stonewall riots by writing a story centered on a gay white man’s experiences. Without even speaking on that, the first sentence of this article says whitewashing is the practice of casting white actors in the roles of characters of color in film. The controversy with “Stonewall” isn’t about casting, it’s about the story and history being altered. However, the situation can also be described as whitewashing. The term is used to describe racism in many aspects of life, beyond film and I suggest we clarify that 11times (talk) 10:16, 28 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Follow the cited sources and take your grievances up with those writers. 173.220.120.66 (talk) 22:12, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@11times - If you have an issue, you can take it up with the authors of the reliable sources cited. Scarlett Johansson played a cyborg in Ghost in the Shell, and apparently, the Japanese were indifferent to her casting. But for American/Western audiences, there are reliable sources saying that she, a "white" woman, can't play an "Asian" character and that her casting is "whitewashing". Never mind the fact that Asians of European descent, or what Americans call "white" people exist.
Natalie Portman playing an "Asian" character is cited as an example of "whitewashing", even though she herself is an Asian woman as Israel is a (West) Asian country. The book described her "Asian" character[1] as having features like "high cheekbones" and other typical ethnic East Asian features, which do not represent all Asian peoples (I.E - "yellowface" or "yellow people"/"yellow Asiatics" doesn't mean every Asian person). Some Asians can have blue eyes, others have Afro-textured hair. Some can have pale white skin, others are shades of brown skin or black skin, and again, because of colonialism/cultural contact, millions of Asians have European ancestry. Heck, most of Russia is geographically Asian. Many Israelis have Euro-Jewish ancestry, and other Asian countries like India, Singapore, Vietnam, China (including Hong Kong and Macau), the Philippines, etc have European-descended populations aka "white" people.
So if the casting of Johansson or Portman are included, then why not Raiden and other sourced examples? Clear Looking Glass (talk) 11:25, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I too have noticed this list is artificially padded out with very tenuous "examples". One of the examples is the 2015 film Aloha, which is an original film and not even based on a book, so how can it be whitewashing? The assumption seems to be that because Hawaii is only 30% white, it's whitewashing Hawaii to have a film about white Hawaiians. But that makes no sense, that's like saying that because the US is only 13% black, any film with a black cast is blackwashing the US.

This article also seems to confuse country with race. A Beautiful Mind is listed as an example of whitewashing because Jennifer Connelly plays Alicia Nash, born in El Salvador. Just because you're born in El Salvador doesn't mean you're not white. There is such a thing as white Hispanic. Same goes for Argo, Tony Mendez was born in the US of Mexican, Italian and French heritage. Are we supposed to assume that because he's half-Mexican, he's not white? Look at pictures of him, he looked white to me. RustlingLeaves (talk) 00:44, 3 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This article also seems to confuse country with race. Then @RustlingLeaves - what constitutes a "race" and "whitewashing"? Many East Asians have "white" skin, and are certainly different from other "browner" people like most South or Southeast Asians. Yet the Disney character Mulan had reliably sourced controversy for a redesign that made her skin "too white" or "light". Ironically, the actress cast to play live-action Mulan, Liu Yifei, has a very "white" skin tone and no one complained about that. Also, Salma Hayek is noted in the article, and she has been open about the lack of roles she received following her initial move to America and the racism she experienced in Hollywood because she's Hispanic/Latina. Are we supposed to deny the racism she experienced because you don't consider Hispanics to be a "race"? Reliable sources have labelled the casting of non-Salvadoran Jennifer Connelly to play a Salvadoran as "whitewashing" whether you like it or not.[2] And regardless of your opinion, reliable sources have talked about "whitewashing" in relation to the casting of Ben Affleck to play Tony Mendez.
Following your logic, every example listing claiming an "Asian" character was "whitewashed" might as well be removed because Asia is a continent filled with peoples of all races and skin colours, not a "race". Yet American society and many reliable sources act like no Asian can be "white", because apparently, European ancestry, light skin, blue eyes and blonde hair are non-existent in a region of 50+ countries and over 4 BILLION people.
One of the examples claims Natalie Portman playing a character who was said to be "Asian"[3] counts as "whitewashing" because Portman is "white" and not "Asian". Yet Israel (where Portman is from) is a West Asian country and West Asia is included in various organizations pertaining Asia, like participating in the Asian Games (though Israel hasn't been able to particle since the 1970s for security/political reasons). Furthermore, the source cited paints a rather racist depiction of Asian people, with the "Asian" character Portman played being described as having "high cheekbones" (and other stereotypically "Mongoloid" or East Asian features) as signs of her "strong Asian heritage". South Asians exist, and they tend to have features that go against every "Asian" stereotype in the United States. Like high-bridged noses, round eyes, dark brown skin, etc. And in America, many South Asians would rather identify as "Brown" or "Brown Asian".[4]
Aside from Brown Asians existing, Afro-Asians exist, and there are native Asian populations who don't have African ancestry but are considered black; Negritos of Southeast Asia exist and "Negrito" literally means "Little Black People". The Sentinelese people of South Asia could pass better as natives of Africa than being a native/typical South Asian.[5] East Asians historically being described as "Yellow" people and White Asians exist, meaning you can be both "White" AND Asian... if being "white" means having European ancestry. Because otherwise, many East Asians have white/light skin. Scarlett Johansson faced a ton of backlash for playing an "Asian" (Japanese) anime character, even though there are naturally blonde Asians who look "white" (does the blonde Uyghur noted in the ethnic page look "white", "Yellow", "Mongoloid", or what to you?[6]) and most of Russia (Johansson is of part-Russian/Ashkenazi Jewish descent) is geographically in Asia.
China recognizes Ethnic Russians as one of their 55 recognized minorities, and they form European ethnic minorities in various East Asian and Central Asian countries. If a Chinese person of Russian descent plays a "Chinese" character, would we have to include them in this article? What about Chinese-born Rene Rivkin? He's Asian, Chinese-born to a Russian-Jewish family and grew up in Shanghai.
Many Israelis are of European Jewish descent, Anglo-Indians exist (like Vivien Leigh, who had Anglo-Saxon or "White" appearance), around 2% of Macau identifies their ethnicity as Portuguese, almost 1% of Hong Kongers identify as being "White", and the Philippines has a Spanish Filipino minority no different than "White" people in Mexico existing. Should Filipino businessman Jaime Augusto Zobel de Ayala, who was born in the Philippines to a wealthy family of Spanish descent for several centuries, not call himself "Asian" or "Filipino"? Clear Looking Glass (talk) 10:47, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Tony Mendez did NOT look white, which was why he was so effective as an operative. He could pass as various ethnicities in places like South Asia and the Middle East. 173.220.120.66 (talk) 22:10, 21 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The character in Aloha is of Chinese and native Hawaiian descent. This is explicitly stated in the film. There is nothing tenuous whatsoever about that case.
Tony Mendez looks like Edward James Olmos or Cheech Marin. A picture of him is shown at the end of the film and looks nothing at all like Ben Affleck. Alicia Nash was also rather ethnic-looking and pictures of her look far more like Salma Hayek than Jennifer Connelly. 173.220.139.50 (talk) 19:19, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The article is clearly written from a U.S. perspective that’s very ignorant about Latin America and the Middle East. But it used to be much more anti-Semitic, before other users insisted on changes. A large proportion of the examples involved biblical characters, objecting to their depiction by “white” actors. Then, other entries would object to casting of Jewish or Arab actors, labeling them “white.” The entire thing was premised on the erasure of Semitic, especially Jewish, identity. A heads-I-win, tails-you-lose approach to portray both the depiction and participation of Semitic people in media as a problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.182.86.87 (talk) 19:51, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I mean, the definition of "whiteness" used in the article and sources clearly has an American/Western-centric meaning. And if a reliable source determines that something is "whitewashing", then I see no reason for why it can't be added to the page.
In the entertainment industries of India, I have seen complaints that white-skinned/upper class Indians dominate Indian cinema, including roles in Southern India, where many Southern Indians are darker-skinned, or have black skin (seen Indian comments use that exact wording). Would that count as "whitewashing"? I guess not since Indians by Western standards are considered "non-white" and thus, beyond the scope of the page. Whether they're the darker-skinned Southern Indian Tamils, as well as the dark-skinned Sentinelese tribe, or the lighter-skinned Northern Indians who may have green/blue eyes (Salman Rushdie).
You can find similar discrimination in other non-Western entertainment industries, where "whiteness" simply means having "white/light skin", not like Western definitions of "whiteness" which lean towards European appearance/ancestry. Likewise, roles often have preference for whiter-skinned actors, even if the character may be intended to be darker-skinned. Clear Looking Glass (talk) 12:04, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If your references are mostly from India, you might not appreciate the full context for this specific issue as it relates to the Middle East. Jewish and other Levantine people (Lebanese, Palestinians, Syrians, etc) are common targets of conspiracy theories that claim they are not authentic or indigenous inhabits of their home region. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:197:900:93C0:F19B:2DE5:538A:FD63 (talk) 17:22, 29 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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