Talk:William Hillcourt/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Sources

I tried to include only information on which sources agree. For that reason I left out, for instance, why he came to America. If the Nelson Block article linked is in fact by Nelson R. Block, it would be reputable, but I don't have back issues of "The Journal of Scouting History" to check that. The other link given is widely quoted, but differs from the Block article in several respects.

The only paper biography I know of is in Thomson Gale's Contemporary Authors: Biography series. I'll check that the next time I'm at the Library if nobody has before then.

CCraig 13:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

I've done some research on Hillcourt, and will look at my notes. Rlevse 14:13, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Wood Badge Dates

I didn't notice you had changed the dates before. The 1936 date was the first Wood Badge course, sort of. It was an experimental course (not by Hillcourt) that was pretty much exactly the course offered at Gilwell Park but it didn't take well with an American audience. The first official BSA course was the 1948 one run by Hillcourt. CCraig 13:45, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Ya, I know. I simply goofed the first time. Rlevse 13:48, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Info issues

Conflicts I've found:

  • article says 11 when he got the handbook, my info says 10
  • article says 1926 when he came to USA, my info says 1925
  • my info says he came to USA to be a reporter to cover the first US Jambo, managed to get hired by BSA and stayed. What's the other version. Rlevse 00:07, 19 January 2006 (UTC)


I actually had two references on both when he got the handbook and when he came to the US, the one I trust more agrees with you on both. (I started writing the article with the other one) The stories I have on why he came over was:

  1. to be a reporter covering the first US Jamboree
  2. he was trying to travel the world and visit various scouting organizations and the US was his first stop where he got a job with a summer camp in New York

The problem with #1 is that the first World Jamboree in the US was in 1965 and I can't find any info of a National Jamboree before the first official jamboree in 1937, which doesn't match up with the timeline. There was one scheduled in 1935 that was cancelled because of a polio epidemic, but even if he was sent to cover that, it would still be a decade to late for him to have been here in time to have written the first Handbook for Patrol Leaders. #2 makes some sense, but it comes from an internet copy of what claims to be reprint of a 1993 issue of the "Journal of Scouting History". (The trusseel link on the article page) From all accounts I've heard that Journal is quite reputable, so if it is a reprint it would be about as reliable as we're likely to find, but as it is I can't even authenticate that it's actually a reprint. CCraig 02:51, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

You are correct about the first Jambo in 1935, I'll change my notes. My guess is #2 is fairly accurate. Do you want to add it in the article? Also, do you have dates on when these various writings were published? And are you sure he's the only 5-beader? I've heard otherwise, but can't prove it.Rlevse 03:04, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The Journal should have been published in 1993. My guess would be issue #2 (since that was dedicated to Hillcourt). As to him being the only 5-beader, it was in my Wood Badge course notes and is also stated on Mike Walton's Wood Badge info page. I'll check around and roundtables and such and see if I can come up with a copy of the journal. CCraig 13:36, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

The course info on that page is way out of date. As for BSA 5-beaders, we'll have to see if corroborating info comes up.Rlevse 13:47, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Why he came to America. As I recall from reading what Nelson Brock has written, Hillcourt was doing a 'world tour' after having graduated from college in Denmark (as a pharmasist sp?). He had been working at the Danish scout office as a writter/editor for their magazine(s). He was thus asked to check out other scout associations and report back to the Danish scout leaders. I have to assume he didn't have a lot of money, so he was doing odd jobs along the trip to pay for this. Hence his working for the BSA, getting hurt, etc. and staying. --Emb021 15:57, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Attention tag

Here's one user's input on this article as of 23 July 2006: "The article on Bill Hillcourt has several unwarranted statements of opinion. While Hillcourt certainly had a profound influence on Scouting, most of it was through his authorship of early handbooks, which is mentioned but not really discussed in detail. The article says that his influence on BSA was second only to B-P's, which is very sweet, but ignores the contributions of James E. West, Ernest Thompson Seton, Daniel Carter Beard and many others. I wonder whether the writer has not gotten too caught up in the topic." Rlevse 14:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)(not my input, I just posted it)

Death

The article doesn't say where he died or was buried. --evrik 17:51, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

Now it does. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:23, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Article name

The article name should be William Hillcourt. Green Bar Bill is already a redirect here. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:27, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Done. I never liked that either. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:25, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Eagle Scout

Anyone have a date for Eagle? The DESA list shows 1918, but he did not arrive in the U.S. until 1926.[1] --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:05, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

1918 is, I think, the date of his Danish Knight-Scout. I'll look for his US Eagle date. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:45, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
1917 per http://www.trussel.com/prehist/crump/hillcour.htm for KnightSCout. I'll fix the DESA page. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:53, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

FA comments and other questions

"says that he was influential, but the article doesn't explain why. All that is does is offer a laundry list of his achievements. Why is he so important to the scouting movement? Is his influence still felt today?"

Upon reflection, I have to agree. Hillcourt's first major influence was on the patrol method. We need to illustrate how the BSA operated before Hillcourt, how he changed it and how he sustained those changes. This includes patrol and troop leadership and Wood Badge.

Some other questions:

  • Did Hillcourt have any influence on summer camp operations in the change from council "gang" camping to troop camping?
  • What is the 'Green Bar Bill' Hillcourt Trust?

--— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 14:58, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

== References ==

"It was 1926 and Bill Hillcourt was a "Cub Reporter" for his Copenhagen newspaper. Bill talked his Editor into sending him to the U.S. for its first National Jamboree -- after all, Bill was a Journalist who was also one of Lord Baden-Powell's Scouts."

I keep seeing copies of this page on the web. The first jamboree was scheduled for 1935 and held in 1937. There are other issues as well. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 19:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, we won't use T125 (the year could be a typo for 1936 too). At any rate, much of this info is easily replaced with other, better refs. — Rlevse • Talk • 19:29, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
The woodbadge.org ref is a copy of the same thing. This is fluff and has a number of inaccuracies. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 23:24, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
True, for the most part, but that 5-bead part seems to be the only place we're using it, so that piece seems accurate, so I added a Johnny Walker ref, which has a good reputation. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:34, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
Good. --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 03:18, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I find these refs to be questionable:

  • which led to his nickname "Green Bar Bill"."Chuck May Scoutmaster's Minute". The International Scouter. Retrieved 2008-02-15.
  • Many Scouters, including Hillcourt, chafed at the new program, exclaiming that the BSA had taken the "outing out of Scouting"."Kudu Posts". Scouter Network. Retrieved 2008-02-18."Troutmaster Posts". Scouter Network. Retrieved 2008-02-18.</ref>

--— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 12:03, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Remove them and find replacements if possible. — Rlevse • Talk • 13:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the two Scouting articles already cited as refs in the Article mention the "criticism of the new program changes" in the early 1970s which de-emphasized traditional outdoor skills in favor of an urban emphasis as giving rise to Hillcourt's "coming out of retirement" to write the 9th edition of the handbook. Also, that his green bar Bill moniker came from the Patrol Leader emblem. I'd be happy to work that into the article if you'd like. JGHowes talk - 03:17, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Fire away, use the most reliable refs possible. Just because it's an FA doesn't mean we can't make it even better! — Rlevse • Talk • 03:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Proposal to remove date-autoformatting

Dear fellow contributors

MOSNUM no longer encourages date autoformatting, having evolved over the past year or so from the mandatory to the optional after much discussion there and elsewhere of the disadvantages of the system. Related to this, MOSNUM prescribes rules for the raw formatting, irrespective of whether or not dates are autoformatted. MOSLINK and CONTEXT are consistent with this.

There are at least six disadvantages in using date-autoformatting, which I've capped here:

Disadvantages of date-autoformatting


  • (1) In-house only
  • (a) It works only for the WP "elite".
  • (b) To our readers out there, it displays all-too-common inconsistencies in raw formatting in bright-blue underlined text, yet conceals them from WPians who are logged in and have chosen preferences.
  • (c) It causes visitors to query why dates are bright-blue and underlined.
  • (2) Avoids what are merely trivial differences
  • (a) It is trivial whether the order is day–month or month–day. It is more trivial than color/colour and realise/realize, yet our consistency-within-article policy on spelling (WP:ENGVAR) has worked very well. English-speakers readily recognise both date formats; all dates after our signatures are international, and no one objects.
  • (3) Colour-clutter: the bright-blue underlining of all dates
  • (a) It dilutes the impact of high-value links.
  • (b) It makes the text slightly harder to read.
  • (c) It doesn't improve the appearance of the page.
  • (4) Typos and misunderstood coding
  • (a) There's a disappointing error-rate in keying in the auto-function; not bracketing the year, and enclosing the whole date in one set of brackets, are examples.
  • (b) Once autoformatting is removed, mixtures of US and international formats are revealed in display mode, where they are much easier for WPians to pick up than in edit mode; so is the use of the wrong format in country-related articles.
  • (c) Many WPians don't understand date-autoformatting—in particular, how if differs from ordinary linking; often it's applied simply because it's part of the furniture.
  • (5) Edit-mode clutter
  • (a) It's more work to enter an autoformatted date, and it doesn't make the edit-mode text any easier to read for subsequent editors.
  • (6) Limited application
  • (a) It's incompatible with date ranges ("January 3–9, 1998", or "3–9 January 1998", and "February–April 2006") and slashed dates ("the night of May 21/22", or "... 21/22 May").
  • (b) By policy, we avoid date autoformatting in such places as quotations; the removal of autoformatting avoids this inconsistency.

Removal has generally been met with positive responses by editors. I'm seeking feedback about this proposal to remove it from the main text (using a script) in about a week's time on a trial basis/ The original input formatting would be seen by all WPians, not just the huge number of visitors; it would be plain, unobtrusive text, which would give greater prominence to the high-value links. Tony (talk) 09:08, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Eagle Scout (2)

The BSA has finally published the DESA list.[2] It still shows Hillcourt's Eagle date as 1918. Since he did not arrive in the U.S. until 1926, it is difficult to reconcile these dates. My best guess is that the BSA equated Knight-Scout with Eagle. I suggest that we remove the statement that he earned Eagle and add a note to the DESA statement that the Eagle date is ambiguous.

BSA sources show that Hillcourt earned Eagle Scout in 1918 (the year he earned Knight-Scout), but he did not arrive in the U.S. until 1926.

--—— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 09:24, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

Good catch. I know the the custodian of Hillcourt's estate. I've emailed him and asked him to clarify this and a few other things. He usually responds within a few days. I'll let you know. — Rlevse • Talk • 12:58, 18 October 2008 (UTC)

This can not be verified. There is a Eagle medal in Hillcourt's estate but it is not known if he earned it as an adult (which was possible back in those days) or he acquired it by some other means. As the BSA DESA list shows his 1918 Knight Scout date, it SEEMS they recognized that as the equivalent of Eagle and bestowed DESA upon him in that regard. We just can't be certain. I tried to clarify this in the article just now but if you can improve it, have at it. — Rlevse • Talk • 21:32, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Green Bar Bill: The Story of William Hillcourt

The 2009 reprint of Baden-Powell: Two Lives of a Hero includes “Green Bar Bill: The Story of William Hillcourt” by Nelson R. Block. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:54, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

His work in the 70's

The article covers the facts about his work in the 70's but I think that current wording is an understatement. He was a prominent guide in BSA's recovery from its failed experiment earlier in that decade. North8000 (talk) 23:37, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes he was, he came out of retirement to rewrite the handbook, and I think at his own expense. Be bold and beef this up. — Rlevse • Talk • 23:38, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
I'll do that. Everyone, feel free to revert me on this without hesitation. North8000 (talk) 23:57, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

A strong case can be made that rather than being "a prominent guide in BSA's recovery from its failed experiment", Hillcourt was in fact the major *cause* of this failure. See, for example:

http://www.whitestag.org/history/history.html

I understand the the mythology around this man is probably unstoppable, but to those of us who lived through this period and worked so hard to make the Improved Scouting Program a success, the memory of the vitriol with which he attacked these efforts at reform and the extent to which he used the power of his reputation to kill it is still painful to recall. This article really needs a more balanced treatment, or at least an acknowledgement that there is another side to this story.

Thankyou

I enjoyed reading this information about such an interesting character. Amandajm (talk) 08:49, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Glad you enjoyed it. He is very interesting. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:00, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Boy's Life/Scouting

Since all Boy's Life and some Scouting editions are now online, I have been browsing through them for bit of information. I will browse this some more and work pertinent material in later. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 11:43, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

The BSA?

Why does every time BSA is mentioned, does it get discussed as a collective group instead of as a singular organization? Pluralizing it into a group seems kindof odd. Sadads (talk) 13:20, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Would you clarify that please? The article uses BSA's as a possessive, but I do not see any plural uses. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 13:47, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

To the Main Editors

What a great article on what a great subject! And what a lot of good hard work! North8000 (talk) 23:46, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

Youth of the Americas Award

There are a few sources that I can't consider reliable that state that Bill received the Youth of the Americas Award (the online sources spell it as Youth Of The American). ---— Gadget850 (Ed) talk 23:29, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Order of the Arrow

None of the photos of show Hillcourt with a lodge flap; surely he was in the OA? --— Gadget850 (Ed) talk - 17:32, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

As I recall he was a member of Unami Lodge. I'll see if I have a picture. Hillcourt was present at the Treasure Island celebration for Unami's 75th on August 6, 1990. It was also his 90th Birthday. He shared stories with those in attendance at the evening campfire. An incredible time. --Jdurbach (talk) 05:17, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
Nelson says he was a VIgil, from Unami. Made Vigil about 1970s-80s. — Rlevse • Talk • 11:05, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

I met Bill in 1993 where he was kind enough to sign my Vigil Certificate. He put a triangle and numeral one under his signature as well as "Unami". At the time he wore an Unami flap. He spoke about his "boss" in the BSA program department E Urner Goodman, founder of the OA. I got the impression he became an Arrowman as Scoutmaster of the nationally chartered Troop 1. I can't imagine Goodman not insuring his participation in the Order by that time. Jmarsh48 (talk) 17:23, 22 October 2014 (UTC)

The "Lodge Flap" wasn't an official uniform component until 1954. The two older photos of him are from his work with the National BSA, and it is generally considered poor form to wear one lodge flap at the exclusion of other lodges when working at that level. Take any photo of Wayne Brock in uniform. While he's wearing the Square Knot of the DSA, he doesn't wear a Lodge Flap. While not a national policy, per se, I can definitely see the benefit of this tradition. Achowat (talk) 08:00, 24 October 2014 (UTC)

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