Talk:William O'Brien (trade unionist)

Ireland Mid‑importance

	Ireland portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ireland, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.IrelandWikipedia:WikiProject IrelandTemplate:WikiProject IrelandIreland articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Biography: Politics and Government

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article is supported by the politics and government work group (assessed as Low-importance).

Organized Labour Mid‑importance

	Organized Labour portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Organized Labour, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Organized Labour on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Organized LabourWikipedia:WikiProject Organized LabourTemplate:WikiProject Organized Labourorganized labour articles
Mid	This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

Socialism Low‑importance

	Socialism portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Socialism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of socialism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.SocialismWikipedia:WikiProject SocialismTemplate:WikiProject Socialismsocialism articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Blockquote re Trotsky[edit]

I assume the quote attributed to W.T. Cosgrave re Leon Trotsky is taken verbatim from the cited source, but I cannot make head nor tail of it. Who is the "he" referred to, if it is supposed to be what Cosgrave said to O'Brien? "I asked his nationality. Reply Jew." Trotsky was Russian! Everybody knew that. "They were against religion (he said that was modified). I said not by Trotsky." That isn't even English. It could mean any number of things. And so on. It sounds like a diary entry by an illiterate or a drunk. In any case why is it needed? It in no way defines O'Brien's life or career. Also, the article says that Cosgrave "notably" turned down a plea for asylum. Was it notable? Certainly, I had never heard of it before. I suggest the blockquote be removed and the paragraph be replaced by the following:

In 1930, O'Brien sought to have Leon Trotsky given asylum in Ireland, but the head of the Free State government, W. T. Cosgrave, refused to allow it.

With the existing ref: Dermot Keogh (1998). Scolaire (talk) 12:24, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. That quote always looked a little "odd" to me. The summary proposed is likely easier for reader to follow. Guliolopez (talk) 20:17, 31 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Done. --Scolaire (talk) 18:21, 2 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The X. middle initial—sourced?[edit]

What is the source of the "X." in the name. I cannot find our justification for it. Those sources that I checked in the work all just say "William O'Brien". Obits in 1968 don't add information, though they talk little about birth place.

@Spleodrach, Beestalman, and Guliolopez: for article starter and others who have played with name. — billinghurst sDrewth 02:34, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi billinghurst. In all honesty I can't remember what source I was relying upon for the article title/etc when I created it. And I am shaking my fist at "me of 15 years ago" for not adding references at the time. (Wikipedia and I had different standards then). Anyway, in terms of:

rationale, I believe that I created the article on the back of a red link that had been in place the then "William O'Brien (disambiguation)" page
sources, I believe that I was relying mainly on National Library of Ireland sources at the time (for other articles/stubs I'd been creating or extending at the time about early 20th century politics in Ireland). And, while it is a very long time ago now, I had noted that the National Library catalogue also used "William X" for O'Brien in a few catalogue entries. (Thinking about it now, however, they may have been doing this as a disambiguator themselves in their own systems...)
"official" name, I agree that there are no explicit sources which suggest he was named (by his parents) as "X" or "Xavier" or otherwise. He was named "John William". Per the sources and the census.
common name, while I think that some contemporary and other sources did use the "X", this could well have been a DAB device. To distinguish him from his contemporary in the IPP, William O'Brien.
what to do now, it seems that (whether a contemporary or technical or later DAB device) the "X" probably doesn't form part of or represent the subject's common name. And so, if a move discussion is required, I'm happy to contribute to that discussion.

(As an aside I find it interesting that, whether I made the initial "mistake", or naively compounded another editor's mistake, or misinterpreted a DAB device used in the National Library's cataloging system, I am more than a little intrigued to see how long it has lasted. And how far it has propagated since. IE: Either bucket loads of people made the same mistake as me. Or my mistake has gone unchallenged by any number of otherwise reputable sources since. Either way I'm intrigued by that....)

Anyway, happy to hear what others think about whether/what we should do. Guliolopez (talk) 09:56, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Guliolopez: Any update on this? Should the article be moved to a new title? Spleodrach (talk) 17:30, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Spleodrach. In all honesty I have no additional information. Other than noting that I've (since) seen at least a few other sources mirror the same label/title we use here, I have no update to offer. The man's given name was John William O'Brien. His common name seems to have been William O'Brien. If some sources have used an "X" to differentiate him from other contemporaries named William O'Brien, it has been inconsistent. And likely artificial. If there is consensus to move the title, perhaps to William O'Brien (trade unionist) (over the existing redirect), then such a move would have my support. Guliolopez (talk) 19:22, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I would support such a move. Spleodrach (talk) 19:27, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 5 November 2020[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 22:02, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

William X. O'Brien → William O'Brien (trade unionist) – No evidence that X was his middle initial. He was named "John William" per the sources in article and the census. The article creator isn't sure where the 'X' came from! See discussion above. Spleodrach (talk) 18:48, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Support move. Per nom, sources and discussion above. Guliolopez (talk) 20:00, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 23:28, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.