Talk:Wind power/Archive 7

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improvements to wind power article

I've been trying to improve this article but I'm being hindered by bird lover User:Elmidae, and professor User:DMacks. I think we can make this article better by working together and reconciling our differences rather than resorting to personal attacks. Brian Everlasting (talk) 00:31, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

Your "improvements" have uniformly been tendentious [1] verging on plain misleading [2] and laced with a generous measure of grammatical havoc [3]. You are either trolling or lacking the competence to edit this article. Further disruptive edits will be reported. --Elmidae (talk · contribs) 05:42, 11 July 2018 (UTC)

this article needs serious updating

With the rapid growth of wind energy and the dramatic cost reductions, the charts need updating.

--Patbahn (talk) 02:07, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

This article still needs serious updating. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Patbahn (talk • contribs) 05:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Yeah, The math equations Are not displaying properly site wide for some reason. Sam.L (123e443) 123e443 (talk) 19:56, 9 April 2021 (UTC)

Then Be Bold and update it! Why complain instead of doing something to remedy the problem? :) - Adolphus79 (talk) 19:06, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

I'm noting that the cost discussion is out of date. I haven't taken time to properly research an update. For example, the "total installed costs for onshore wind power" is for four years ago. The 2017 value of $1477 per kW may be $1350 per kW in 2020 according to https://www.windpowermonthly.com/article/1671659/energy-cost-analysis-2020-wind-ready-zero-subsidy-future "the average installed cost is now around $1,350/kW" BostonGarden (talk) 17:31, 27 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 July 2021

In the article, the following is claimed: "Wind farms are typically built in wild and rural areas, which can lead to "industrialization of the countryside".[1] A report by the Mountaineering Council of Scotland concluded that wind farms harmed tourism in areas known for natural landscapes and panoramic views.[2]"

I suggest adding the following directly after this.

A study by Christoph Alfken and Tom Broekel for German municipalities adds some support for this, however, finds only marginal negative effects of wind turbines on tourism numbers. Using spatial econometrics, they calculated that a 1% increase in the installed wind turbine capacity tends to reduce the local overnight occupancy rate (number of tourist arrivals divided by the number of guest beds in a municipality) by 0.01%. [3] TomBroekel (talk) 08:08, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: It appears you may be related to that study. If you have a COI with regards to a source you shouldn't be working to have it added to articles. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:54, 28 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 August 2021

In the 5th paragraph of the section "environmental effect" please replace the sentence "There are also reports of higher bird and bat mortality at wind turbines as there are around other artificial structures" with the following section from the article wind turbine 

Thousands of birds, including rare species, have been killed by the blades of wind turbines,[4] though wind turbines contribute relatively insignificantly to anthropogenic avian mortality. Wind farms and nuclear power stations are responsible for between 0.3 and 0.4 bird deaths per gigawatt-hour (GWh) of electricity while fossil fueled power stations are responsible for about 5.2 fatalities per GWh. In 2009, for every bird killed by a wind turbine in the US, nearly 500,000 were killed by cats and another 500,000 by buildings.[5] In comparison, conventional coal fired generators contribute significantly more to bird mortality, by incineration when caught in updrafts of smoke stacks and by poisoning with emissions byproducts (including particulates and heavy metals downwind of flue gases).

Also after the sentence "Habitat loss and habitat fragmentation are the greatest impacts of wind farms on wildlife" please add the following sentence from article Wind turbine 

 but can be mitigated if proper monitoring and mitigation strategies are implemented.[6]

Thank you! 152.57.18.103 (talk) 13:03, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done Alduin2000 (talk) 16:44, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference Szarka was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Gordon, Dr. David. Wind farms and tourism in Scotland. Mountaineering Council of Scotland. November 2017. p.3
  3. ^ Broekel, T. and Alfken, C. (2015) Gone with the wind? The impact of wind turbines on tourism demand
  4. ^ Hosansky, David (April 1, 2011). "Wind Power: Is wind energy good for the environment?". CQ Researcher.
  5. ^ Sovacool, B. K. (2013). "The avian benefits of wind energy: A 2009 update". Renewable Energy. 49: 19–24. doi:10.1016/j.renene.2012.01.074.
  6. ^ Parisé, J.; Walker, T. R. (2017). "Industrial wind turbine post-construction bird and bat monitoring: A policy framework for Canada". Journal of Environmental Management. 201: 252–259. doi:10.1016/j.jenvman.2017.06.052. PMID 28672197.

Cumulative wind capacity in 2019, Spain (2019)

Although the installed power is fairly correct (25,224 MW), the percentage representing the total amount cumulative installed is around 24%, not the 3.9% as written. {cite web |url=https://www.ree.es/es/datos/generacion/potencia-instalada} Figuerai (talk) 13:30, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

That percentage refers to the share of the total wind power installed capacity in the world. --Ita140188 (talk) 00:54, 1 October 2021 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Wind power/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

I think this article needs to be updated so it continues to meet the "broad in coverage" and "summary style" criteria. It would be good if this could be done in such a way as to make it both clearer to the reader and easier for other editors to keep up to date.

You probably have lots of ideas how to do this but here are a few from me (I may add more later):

Reduce the number of written numbers which change frequently either by deleting them if they are in more detailed articles or by graphing them so the reader can understand better

There is only one para and one diagram on interaction/comparison with solar power - needs a bit more

Change pie charts to another form as 10 slices is too many

Remove lists of wind farms as there are now standalone list articles

Needs more on future expansion - probably with links to "Wind power in country X" articles

Remove country specific stuff unless it is illustrating a global point e.g. "Collection and transmission network" needs to be globalized

World wind speed map needs to go further offshore

Some sections which have a corresponding "main article" should be in more "summary style" for example "Environmental effects".

I hope one of you will have time to update this important article Chidgk1 (talk) 17:50, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

There were a few minor edits - thanks - but not nearly enough - so I have delisted. Chidgk1 (talk) 15:21, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

habitat loss in lead

Should we remove ", which can lead to "industrialization of the countryside"[5] and habitat loss.[4]" from the lead because:

1) Most new European wind power is far offshore I think - cite 5 seems re Europe mainly

2) Offshore windpower creates habitat with foundations as far as I know. So there ought to be studies cited in the body text estimating whether there is a net loss or gain of habitat I think. After that it could be summarized in the lead if significant

Chidgk1 (talk) 18:39, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Asarlaí OK I accept your point that the sentence refers to onshore. But is habitat loss significant compared to other causes of habitat loss? Chidgk1 (talk) 11:36, 23 November 2021 (UTC)

By all means, delete any reference to blatant existing & future ruination of scenery, both inland and looking out from ocean shores (30+ mile visibility offsets are often impractical). It's all about selling these huge machines as "green" when they're clearly industrial & invasive. Wind turbines also show no real evidence of flattening the global CO2 curve (fossil fuels build them, plus Jevons paradox when people think they can waste "clean" electricity). https://falseprogress.home.blog/2016/08/29/wind-turbines-desecrate-nature/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.25.214.24 (talk) 00:18, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

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Should the "Impact on environment and landscape" section be moved to lead of main article and excerpted back here?

That would have the advantage it would be less work to keep up to date I guess - for example I might trim it slightly and add a couple of sentences specifically about offshore Chidgk1 (talk) 10:53, 20 October 2022 (UTC)

I disagree. I don't see anything in the section that needs constantly updated? I also disagree that the section needs trimmed. It's already one of the shortest in the article and is concise, relevant and well-sourced. So it's already a snippet of the main article, which is much longer. ~Asarlaí 13:47, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Ah I did not mean to make it shorter in the long run but to trim a bit to add new info. Originally the info was in 3 places but I recently combined the lead of the main article with Environmental_impact_of_electricity_generation#Wind_power As offshore wind power is growing so fast nowadays I feel the emphasis should be a little more on the offshore to keep it relevant - for example presumably there will be research on whether floating is more environmentally friendly than concrete-based which can first be detailed in the body of the main article and then summarized in the lead. So I think it would be good for those kind of updates to automatically come through here. Chidgk1 (talk) 15:10, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
I welcome more info being added, but I don't think info needs to be removed first - the numbers could be trimmed however. Offshore wind power might be growing, but the article says there is much more on-land wind power right now, so we should focus slightly more on that. ~Asarlaí 08:55, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Anyone else got an opinion for or against excerpting? Chidgk1 (talk) 13:05, 21 October 2022 (UTC)

Asarlaí Not sure if your "I disagree" above is about excerpting or changing the content. I just noticed the content is also in Wind_farm#Impact_on_environment_and_landscape - so are you and others now in favor or opposed to excerpting? Chidgk1 (talk) 06:52, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

I see from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere?target=Environmental+impact+of+wind+power&namespace=&hidelinks=1&hideredirs=1 that Johnfos did the first of the 4 excerpts back in 2011 - anyone else got any thoughts on whether it should also be excerpted here? Chidgk1 (talk) 15:08, 26 October 2022 (UTC)

moved to the lead of the main article and excerpted back here - as the lead of the main article is now excerpted to 5 articles including this one it should be easier to keep up to date there rather than in the 5 articles Chidgk1 (talk) 13:54, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Hello Pyrrho the Skipper - above is the discussion - would you like me to explain in more detail? Chidgk1 (talk) 20:23, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Okay thanks. I don't see a consensus for your cuts, though? Pyrrho the Skipper (talk) 20:59, 3 November 2022 (UTC)
I don't intend to cut anything - the idea is to avoid having to do future updates in so many different places. Chidgk1 (talk) 10:05, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
I think we should stop using excerpts for mainspace pages. It's generally bad practice and lowers the quality of articles. So I am definitely against this change --Ita140188 (talk) 08:23, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
I am guessing that way back in the 2000s (perhaps before the "excerpt" template was created) an enthusiastic editor duplicated this info in several places.
The excerpting of this info was started back in 2011 by @Johnfos and I think he did right. I am not sure how many duplications of the info there were in his time but when I started not long ago there were 5 or 6. Now it is down to 2 as far as I know.
I find it tedious to try and keep the info up to date in 2 different places and I suspect future editors will too. So I feel that this excerpt would increase the quality of the articles as I and hopefully others will be more motivated to keep the info up to date. For example I added a sentence about underwater noise to the lead of the main article and I am not sure I can be bothered to repeat that edit here or keep them both up to date in future. Chidgk1 (talk) 10:18, 4 November 2022 (UTC)
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