Talk:Wolfdog/Archive 1

Archive 1

Numerous Changes

This entry was not neutral. I've attempted to make it more so, but believe more work than I can do right now is needed. I hope this at least starts the process. I made a lot of changes - if you are a previous contrtibutor to this article please help move it forward, rather than getting irked - my goal is simply to improve and all entries are works-in-progress that evolve, my changes as much as any. Since I made large changes I've included notes on some:

Added some section headers.

Wolfdogs need not be fertile - not part of the definition. However, they usually are (or always? I found no references to infertility in wolfdogs in a search). This is implied by the following mention of multiple generations of hybrids and since I think most people would assume fertility I believe this is not needed.

Removed single sentence paragraph about frequent crossing proving same species... not a contested fact & circular logic: can have fertile offspring therefore same species (which means can have fertile offspring).

I've also tried to add sources for information on each side of the issue, though I think a bit more is needed on the underlying issues surrounding wolves (not hybrids) that have contributed to the debate - maybe just a link to the wolf or wolf hunting controversy.

Removed paragraph on claims they are less stable and predictable than dogs: These claims are commonly made, and probably deserve mention, but not in this manner since the reasons given are not supported by references or explanation, and at least the second one is obviously lacking: the issues with behavior stem from "the treatment the animals receive, since pure wolves and pure dogs are generally bred in more strictly regulated conditions than wolfdogs, and are logically subjected to more standard correct treatment"... Dogs are in NO way bred in "regulated conditions," not even "controlled" conditions unless you include those bred intentionally by fanciers like pure-bred breeders - by far the largest amount are accidental breedings of the offspring of accidental breedings and so on. According to what I leared in order to edit this the wolves used to create wolfdogs have been bred for numerous generations by people and are very very rarely taken from the wild. However, prior to those generations, leading back 10-100 years (a guess based on what I read, not a stated fact), they were wild and had no controls on breeding at all. Once in captivity they are likely bred according to convenience and availability, not intentional manipulation of desirable traits (I could be wrong about that part as I don't know any wolf breeders). Secondly, the "treatment [wolfdogs] receive" is a totally different issue than breeding. Similarly the 'standardness' and/or 'correctness' wolfdogs are subjected to is not "logically" based on how strictly regulated their breeding conditions are (even if the first half were valid). Ok, that was confusing, but just refer to the original - not that it is that clear.

History: Removed contentious part about subspecies (wolf or dog) of mother - what does it matter? May be of interest to some but far outside the scope of this article at present or anytime soon. Changed unjustified claim that accidental crossings of wild wolves and domestic dogs were a "routine hazard" into statement that it appears to have happened multiple times early in the history of domestic dogs and may have continued to some degree since, but that modern wolfdogs are almost exclusively the result of intentional crossings with captive wolves. Removed "not to trust a wolf that is half a dog" because it is an unsourced quote, doesn't fit here, and is stated as fact when it is one side of the debate above.

The Volkosob: Does this belong here? As there are not recognized different subspecies of wolf-dog hybrids this is most likely predominantly a regional differencece. It does not fit with the rest of the article, which focuses on the creature in a broad sense. More importantly, there is no source for the information and I have been unable to find any through any searches. Did not remove it yet - any consensus? Not sure if the need for more information in general justifies including this.

The "External Links" section: Wolfdog Breeder link just linked to a breeder's site, which only had a few pictures and no information. "The Wolfdog" online book link is dead. Czecho-Slovak Wolfdog site is another breeder's site, and includes significant information that is completely at odds from ALL the other sites I've looked at while starting to clean this up (much more is needed). For example, it states that wolfdogs are not demanding and do just fine in apartments. Every other site I looked at, both those for and against owning them as pets, state that wolfdogs are extremely demanding and not for everyone and that they need a LOT of space. A number of the pro-pet sites warned against false claims by people trying to make a quick buck by making false claims in order to sell more. Therefore I don't feel that this commercial site contributes to a NPOV. Bigdoglover 12:37, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

The Volkosob is a valid subject because it is notable, and not just of regional interest. I have seen published and television reports about them, although they were a few years ago and are hard to find right now. Wikipedia articles can be specific as well as general, in the context of the title subject. If there are other specific breeds of wolfdog, they can be included as well. The Volkosob just happened to be one breed that was memorable enough for someone to think of and include. Coyoty 19:02, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Broken reference

Both sides of the controversy agree, however, that wolfdogs require care and an environment different from either wolves or dogs.

from the article was cited with this

Wild Spirit Wolf Sanctuary Wolfdog FAQ

which is a broken link. Now, it is uncited. Keesiewonder 01:53, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

"Hebridean wolfdogs" cite

The passage isn't about whether you can buy hybrid breeds in the U.K. or anywhere else. It's about recognizing that those notable organizations support legislation. It doesn't mean that the legislation banning all wolfdog breeds exists. In other words, it's topically irrelevant. But more importantly, do not add external links to your personal website as a reference. This is clearly a violation of Wikipedia's guidelines governing conflict of interest editing. If you cannot refrain from spamming this article with links to your personal website, it is best to not edit this article at all. VanTucky ^Talk 22:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Re-write

Just to inform users here, I'm in the process of re-writing this article. The re-write is present on my userpage.

Improvements include the new referencing system present on the wolf and dhole articles, and a greater focus on wild specimens. As the keeping of wolfdogs as pets is a relatively new trend, I think it best to give their presence in a wild state precedence.

Suggestions are welcome.Mariomassone (talk) 14:54, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I disagree that a focus on wild specimens is more appropriate. Just because something is relatively new or current doesn't mean it should be downscaled in favor of older natural history. Both topics should be given equal weight. Taking a look at your draft on your userpage, I like what I see though. The section order and composition makes a lot more sense. The only things I'd change are minor stylistic or reference issues (such as that refs should always go outside punctuation, not in the middle of a sentence). Steven Walling 16:58, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I also disagree that a focus on wild specimens is more appropriate. Dlabtot (talk) 23:13, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

"An Overview of a Controversial Animal"

Twelve of the Thirty seven references comes from an eightteen year old article that has since been disproven. Any time some adds an updated reference it is removed. This is a very biased and untrue article. http://exoticpets.about.com/cs/wolfdogs/a/wolfdogs.htm http://www.inetdesign.com/coalition/ http://www.inetdesign.com/wolfdunn/whate/whate1.html http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/17038/is_a_wolf_hybrid_right_for_you.html

Disproven by what reliable published opinion? That article is from a very reliable source, and most of the books out there that could alternatively be used are written by wolf-dog advocates and owners. None of the links you provided meet Wikipedia's standards for reliability of source material. VanTucky 05:48, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

http://www.saveclyde.com/images/Wolf%20Hybrid%20Report8-23-99doc.pdf, the department of agriculture

http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/wolfdog.htm, which has a number of cited (and more recent) sources, this article (An Overview of a Controversial Animal) has sources as far back as 1972. This is a reliable source according to wikipedia? Articles over 30 years old. We knew little of wolves and almost nothing of the very rare wolfdogs at that time.

Robert A. Willems works for the usda, those in agriculture have long disliked the wolf and wolfdogs, most in the acrigulture business view them as threat. Mr. Willems is a biased man who put together every anti wolf article he could find (even if it meant going back 30 years) notice he had no positive articles about wolves. this is a man with an agenda. you say "most of the books out there that could alternatively be used are written by wolf-dog advocates and owners". you dont accept work from advocates yet accept work done by opponents? Also is there a more reliable source than owners of these animals? I wouldnt let someone without kids teach me how to raise mine. Would you get relationship advice from someone not married? lets be realistic take down all biased sources or allow both biased sides on this article.

You seem to be missing a huge point: all of those pro-wolfdog sources are how-to guides, not scientifically accurate and peer-reviewed works. Wikipedia is not a how-to guide or a provider of advice. It's a reference work. If you want advice on keeping wolfdogs, this isn't the place for you, and using sources that are advice guides is equally inappropriate for an encyclopedia. VanTucky 21:27, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be missing a huge point: THIS IS A BIASED ARTICLE. written by a biased man. like i said, take down all biased sources or allow both biased sides on this article. I dont know why you attempted to change the subject. The last two links listed over 25 doctors and scientist, yet these scientists statements are not not scientifically accurate? THIS IS A BIASED ARTICLE.

The problem is it's now biased in the other direction, and reads like it was written almost entirely by wolfdog owners and breeders. Oh, guess what? It was written, as it stands, almost entirely by wolfdog owners and breeders. A large amount of this article's content should be deleted as unsourced twaddle. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 13:19, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Frequently sterile

A great enough percentage of "wolfdogs" are sterile that some experts consider them equivalent to mules, with all taxonomic consequences of such a true hybrid classification. This Article and related Articles should reflect this. I have read this, but I'll keep looking for where I read it so we can cite. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 19:28, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Outdated Information

Under subsection "Breed-Specific Legislation", it is stated that Alberta prohibits the ownership of wolfdogs.

http://www.srd.alberta.ca/FishWildlife/FishWildlifeRegulations/WildlifeAsPets.aspx Under the subsection/ question: "Do I need a permit to own a hybrid of a wolf and a dog", The information provided states that you can keep a wolfdog in Alberta without a permit

"No. Alberta’s legislation does not prohibit a person from owning a hybrid of a wolf and a dog. Under provincial law, wolves are classified as furbearing animals and so cannot be kept as pets, but wolf/dog crosses can be legally possessed without special permits. Before getting a wolf/dog cross, contact your municipal office as local bylaws may place restrictions on owning such pets."

It should be noted that some municipalities in Alberta may prohibit wolfdogs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.99.100.3 (talk) 18:09, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

Level 2 header

On November 12 the level 2 header ==History== was deleted. On January 31 Slambot turned the level 3s under that into level 2s, making the sections look a tad odd. I request that Slambot's edit be undone (it is the most current), and that the result at ===Prehistoric wolfdogs=== be replaced with

==History==
===Prehistoric wolfdogs===

please, and thank you. 71.234.215.133 (talk) 21:49, 2 February 2013 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for the nice bit of wiki-sleuthing. Adrian J. Hunter^{(talk•contribs)} 07:10, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Misc. opinions

i believe that all species of dogs (coyotes, foxes, dingos, wolves, domestic dogs etc.) are dogs. To be specific enough to explain their species should be determined with extensive research. though different dog species can be related i'm not sure that all dogs are 100% wolf, only that wolves are 100% dog. and because i own a full blooded artic wolf and she is as sweet as sweet can be i strongly believe that behavior is a product of the DOG'S environment. Wolf2me (talk) 18:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)Wolf2meWolf2me (talk) 18:57, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

To a great part it is, that's true. E.g. a dog, who is not socialized to humans early in its life, can become just as shy as a wolf. And that's no theory, it's proven.--Inugami-bargho (talk) 11:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Science has proven in multiple research that genetics is the source of wolf aggression and behavior, not environment. http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2011/03/taming-wild-animals/ratliff-text/2 http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0006584 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.138.209.218 (talk) 10:28, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

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"Temperament and behavior" section bias

The entire "Temperament and behavior" section, and especially its "Aggression" subsection, are clearly biased and were added by fanciers of the breed, without reliable sources for a long string of defensive question-begging assertions, which have actually been contradicted by other sources. More than one wolfdog breeder has said that most people who think they want a wolfdog really want a regular dog that looks wolfish, because they can't handle a wolfdog, for the same reasons that people who think they want a Bengal cat do not want an F1 or F2 hybrid, but rather a 7/8ths housecat that has virtually nothing of the Asian leopard cat genetics left but the spotted coat, and even then might be better off with an Egyptian Mau. This pro-wolfdog bias runs through the entire article, but is especially noticeable in this section. It's just defensive, defensive, defensive as if all concerns ever raised by anyone about wolfdogs are crazy nonsense, which they are not. — SMcCandlish   Talk⇒ ɖ∘¿¤þ   Contrib. 13:13, 30 November 2012 (UTC)

Yet again, I am now a member, and I know much about wolves and dogs and am in training to be a vet. I just wanted to praise this article, because I think that the entire part of how the woldog breed fanciers are biased is so true. I also wanted to add on about the temperament and body language, because I actually talked to a man who breeds wolfdogs (with the appropriate licenses, of course), face-to-face and learned part of this from him. If you have a wolfdog with over 50% wolf blood in it, it will not wag it's tail or hold it high over it's back hardly at all. Because it has so much wolf blood influence, it will instead hold it's tail straight down and almost never wag it. If your dog has Alpha-wolf blood, it will most likely hold it's head extremely high and frequently assert itself as Alpha. Sometimes, an Alpha-blood wolfdog will feel challenged, and if it continues to feel so, it may attack to defend it's rank as Alpha, resulting in the owner thinking that he/she bought an aggressive dog, when it's not aggressive at all. It's simply behaving naturally. If your wolfdog has Omega or other low-ranking wolf blood in it, it will still hold it's tail straight down, but if you even speak too harshly to it, it will either tuck it's tail inbetween it's legs and hold it's head low while it's eyes grow bigger, or something else which I will explain in a moment. If the first thing described happens, your wolfdog doesn't understand why you are basically yelling at it, and could cause bottled up emotions that could be released suddenly in agression, therefore making people think that they have gotten an agressive dog when it's really the owner. The second thing that could happen is that when you speak harshly to an Omega-blood wolf, it will recoil and flinch, cowering slightly, but then it thinks you are challenging it, therefore it could attack in a hurry to defend itself, again resulting in the owner thinking that it bought an aggressive pet (when really, they shouldn't be house pets in the first place). If you are going to own a wolfdog, I suggest making sure you have the proper size land for your wolfdog to run and express themselves, as well as researching and making sure you understand the way their mind works, so that you can have a strong bond with your wolf. Again, I hope this helps and makes people see from my point of view and to understand the wolf more, so that there isn't many more cases where people think that they bought an aggressive dog when they didn't, because I can assure you that there is an amazingly sweet wolf hiding inside, waiting for you to understand it. There's a ghost haunting you.~Ri_-_Writen by Ash~Ash (talk) 18:28, 7 April 2014 (UTC)— Preceding ERily-yAsh comment added by 24.88.232.168 (talk) 17:09, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

The dewclaw argument

Wolves with an extra toe on their hind legs are the products of cross-mating between wolves and domestic dogs, scientists in Italy have confirmed.

They found grey wolves (Canis lupus) with dewclaws had unique dog alleles - variant forms of a gene - suggesting the extra toes did not arise through spontaneous mutations but through hybridisation with dogs.

"I've done wolf tracking in North America, Italy and elsewhere and until now I never found an animal with a dewclaw. We are taught in school that wolves have only four claws on the back leg," co-author Dr Paolo Ciucci, of the Universita di Roma "La Spaienza", told BBC News Online. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3602741.stm

I fail to see how any of this contradicts the statement. 83.187.226.145 11:51, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

"However, it is unlikely that all hybrids have dewclaws. There may be other signs of hybridisation not currently known." - from the article.

Obviously it's not an absolute indicator of hybrids. The article means that the presence of a dewclaw indicates that it is not a pure wolf. But hybrids may or may not have them. VanTucky ^(talk) 03:48, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

Well then, let's make that clear then. I think it is an important point. 83.187.226.145 13:17, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

As posted in the "Black wolves = wolf dogs?" discussion, I am now a member, and I know much about wolves and dogs and am in training to be a vet. First, I would like to point out that I have never heard of any kind of animal that has dewclaws on it's back paws. I know from experience that cats, dogs, and even rabbits, have dewclaws on their front paws, and purebred dogs get their dewclaws amputated, so to speak, when they are puppies so that they have no damage to them later on and so that they look better when being shown. But, as I have just explained, I have never heard of an animal having dewclaws on it's back paws. I hope this helps resolve this argument and makes people see more from my point of vision and makes them try to understand that not everything unnatural in wolves is from dogs. There's a ghost haunting you.~Ri_-_Writen by Ash~Ash (talk) 18:31, 7 April 2014 (UTC)— Preceding ERily-yAsh comment added by 24.88.232.168 (talk) 16:32, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Black wolves = wolf-dogs?

Like stated in the article, the black coat color "migrated" from the wolves to the dogs and wasn't wiped out due to natural selection but seems to be favoured by it (according to the original scientific article). Therefore, the wolves still have those genes from the dogs. Therefore, wouldn't they arguably be wolf-dogs?--Inugami-bargho (talk) 08:39, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps, but I would think that the dog content is so small they could be legally considered wolves. 24.85.47.37 (talk) 19:12, 3 February 2010 (UTC)Griffin

Nevertheless, they originate from wolf-dogs, and thus are valid for this article.Mariomassone (talk) 19:14, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

There seems to be a problem with the word "migrated". It's unclear. Also, it should be in the "wolfdogs in the wild" section, not the domesticated wolfdog section. Chrisrus (talk) 07:46, 18 December 2010 (UTC)

The dog content could be millenia old if the black mutation has spread evenly through subarctic wolf population, according to the references. I would not feel comfortable with a definitive statement that only this mutation has been preserved, as it is one that figuratively slaps you in the face with "look stupid, the whole wolf's black!" and it seems a very unlikely happenstance for a single random trait to be one that arguably could not be more obvious, if the whole dog genome was mixed in. I humbly point out this gene codes for a disease resistance factor, the references don't know if this or the color is the reason for the mutation being beneficial. Domesticated dogs are more densely populated and contact each other more than wolf packs, logically other anti-disease mutations that cannot be seen may have been retained. Or any useful dog trait, like totally non-socialized feral dogs' shyness of humans. If anyone runs across any research on this please add it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.252.254.140 (talk) 07:35, 3 December 2012 (UTC)

I am now a member, and I know much about dogs and wolves and am in training to be a vet. I don't think that the black pelt gene "migrated" into the wolf from dogs at all. I would say that it instead was a mutation by natural selection that appeared suddenly in wolves, and is now growing more common through wolves that have that gene mating with other wolves who have the same gene and the pups ending up with two of the black pelt genes, therefore making them black-pelted instead of the usual grey, red, or white pelts. I hope more people will see from my point of vision and try to understand that not everything that happens unnaturally in wolves comes from the dog. There's a ghost haunting you.~Ri_-_Writen by Ash~Ash (talk) 18:31, 7 April 2014 (UTC)— Preceding ERily-yAsh comment added by 24.88.232.168 (talk) 16:25, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Wolf--German Shepherd mixes

I'd just like to comment on this section, because, though it may be accurate, I learned from a man who breeds wolves and wolfdogs (with the appropriate licenses, of course) that you should actually never cross wolves and German Shepherds, because those mixes are actually prone to Hip Dysplasia (like German Shepherds in general), more attitude issues (such as too much overbearing-ness and too much aggression to strangers because they want to protect the ones close to them), and just more-than-usual aggression in the first place, because of the natural traits of German Shepherds and wolves being mixed together. I just wanted to say that, and hope that maybe something can be added to the article about that. There's a ghost haunting you.~Ri_-_Writen by Ash~Ash (talk) 18:22, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

What about in South Asia?

There is a statue of a wolf outside the Lahore Museum dedicated to John Lockwood Kipling. I asked a security guard if the wolves in the stories by his son Rudyard Kipling that we had in Wolf Cubs were actually wolfdogs. The answer was, "Yes, of course. Didn't you know that?" Masalai (talk) 02:52, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

The wolves in Rudyard Kipling's "Jungle Book" which wolf cubs is based on were the Indian Wolf species (Canis lupus pallipes). I would hardly think that a museum security guard can be considered a reliable authority on wolf dogs in any case. Mediatech492 (talk) 15:29, 25 August 2014 (UTC)

Response to Wolfdogs in the Wild

In the Wolfdogs in the wild section you include that extensive DNA analysis has provided evidence that dog-wolf hybridization is actually a rare occurrence. Knowing this it might be of help to include information about introgression of gray wolves genes between other subspecies such as The Eastern Wolf or The Great Lakes Boreal Wolf. Include sources and or studies that provide background information explaining introgression of genes and continued hybridization of more common mixed species prevalent to your article. Understanding the reasons behind hybridization of two subspecies of wolves might further shed light on why it is rare for a wild wolf to breed with a domestic dog. I would also argue that more information about how a growth in wolf-dog populations could hinder the survival of European Wolf populations should be included. What other evidence can you find to support this claim?

Eberly.52 (talk) 00:44, 2 October 2014 (UTC)Gage Eberly

External links modified

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Famous wolfdogs

maby there could be a famous wolf dog section which includes diefenabker from due south —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.110.241.187 (talk • contribs)

The Problem with this is that the dog mentioned above appears to be a purebred Husky. Therefore that spread of misinformation on what he is would only confuse readers of this Wiki. Shin Kairi (talk) 21:09, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

How it is related to wolves

The wolfdog have been related to wolves. It takes its place by crossing between a German Shepherd and a wolf]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elise Butler (talk • contribs) 02:27, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Problems

Wolf-Dog-Hybrids [1] Sciencia58 (talk) 22:23, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

What is your point? You've provided a link to what we call "Just Some Website", which itself provides no sources, and an almost laughably one-sided narrative. Why? Do you have some comment to make that might improve this encyclopedia article? Dlabtot (talk) 00:24, 21 August 2017 (UTC)

contradicts saarloos wolfdog page

saarloos wolfdog page indicates an initial crossbreeding with gray wolf, while this article says mackenzie valley wolf. not sure what to use for a source for this to make the change? can I use commercial websites description of dog breeds? I put the template up to indicate the contradiction. Goddamit why can't I stop using the word indicate? Gabriel syme (talk) 14:38, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing this out. Which subspecies was used, and how do we know? Chrisrus (talk) 15:45, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Well, the Mackenzie wolf is only found in northwestern north america, but the article states that he got it from rotterdam zoo, which I suppose could have had an imported specimen? The Saarloos article needs more sourcing and when I did a quick scan of online sources I found they often contradicted eachother. Not quite sure how to proceed, I'm new to editing.Gabriel syme (talk) 16:53, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

I've edited both pages to say that it was either a female Mackenzie or female European, I know it is not an ideal solution, but it stops the pages from contradicting each other..Cdjp1 (talk) 07:22, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

Cleanup

This article, besides contradicting itself, contains no information specifically verified. A complete reqwrite may be necessary, but the article is small enough that existing information (after verification) just needs reworking.Daemon8666 15:58, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Can we remove the cleanup tags now? I've not personally edited the article, but there are lots of citations and everything seems high quality. It seems a shame to have the cleanup tags when the article doesn't seem to deserve them :) DE 13:07, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Why is the Controversy section at the top? Seems that it is not the most important factual part of the article. I'll go ahead and change this if I don't get any feedback. Phasmatisnox 03:01, 9 February 2007 (UTC)"

Lupo Italiano" section contains awkward wording. Second sentence can be completely replaced by noting that the breed was of a female wolf and a male dog.

There is a spacing issue in the Aggression section: "Implanted behavior can affect innate behavior.The socialization of each "

Signed and dated here for archive purposes only. William Harris • (talk) • 10:10, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Unclear statement

I was reading the article, and found this line:

"The Shikoku (dog) is an example of a wolfdog breed that has ever been subject to these rules."

Maybe I'm just stupid (good chance), but it doesn't make sense. Is "ever" a typo, and it should say never? Or is it just giving an example of a dog breed effected by rules regarding wolfdogs?

I know this is probably a very stupid question. It just looks a bit odd to me.

Signed and dated here for archive purposes only. William Harris • (talk) • 10:10, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Shikokus as wolfdogs?

A citation should be given for the claim that shikokus are more closely related to wolves. On the Shikoku page, at least in the past, I believe there was a consensus that the claim was unfounded, yet somebody kept inserting the claim after it would be removed. The problem persisted for a while, but no satisfactory sources were ever provided to back-up calling the dog a wolf-hybrid. It seems to me that those who think it's a wolf hybrid are hazarding a guess based on its appearance. Please, one way or another, deal with this!

Signed and dated here for archive purposes only. William Harris • (talk) • 10:10, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Domestication section

Domestication

Ancient Mexico

Evidence for prehistoric domesticated wolfdogs in the Americas dates back at least 10,000 years while fossil evidence in Europe points to their use in hunting mammoths.

In 2010, experts announced that they had found the remains of many wolf-dogs that had been kept by the warrior class of the Teotihuacan civilization in Mexico's central valley about two thousands years ago, and that, in light of this evidence, the animal commonly found depicted in the art of that culture and which had been thought to be a strange dog or coyote were likely instead wolf-dogs.

No mention has been made of the Finnish Lapphund and similar Saami breeds which show a cross with wolf in DNA. Seems to fit in here. Here is a reference link 2601:9:3A00:D4:6D61:22B0:6481:3198 (talk) 19:41, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

England

Wolf-dog hybrids, as illustrated in The Menageries: Quadrupeds Described and Drawn from Living Subjects by W. Ogilby, 1829

The first record of a wolf and dog breeding in Great Britain comes from the year 1766 when what is thought was a male wolf had mated with a Pomeranian, which resulted in a litter of nine pups.

Wolfdogs were occasionally purchased by English noblemen, who viewed them as a scientific curiosity. Wolfdogs were popular exhibits in British menageries and zoos.

As well as this, in Act III, Scene I of Macbeth, Macbeth makes reference to "demi-wolves" as in the catalogue of dogs. Macbeth was written, to the best of my knowledge in 1606, suggesting an established tradition of breeding and keeping wolf hybrids in the early 17th Century and possibly earlier.109.78.32.32 (talk) 15:08, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

The Saarlooswolfhound

A Saarlooswolfhound

In terms of intentional breeding efforts, the first documented wolfdog breed, the Saarlooswolfhond, did not begin to be developed until the 1920s. Hybrids were used as experimental attack dogs in South Africa under apartheid. These hybrids were bred from German Shepherds and wolves from the Urals. The first of these hybrids was a male born in 1978 named Jungle, who remained in service until 1989.

Signed and dated here for archive purposes only. William Harris • (talk) • 10:10, 11 May 2018 (UTC)

Black Wolves

Genetic research has shown that black-furred wolves owe their colouration to a mutation that first arose in domestic dogs

Genetic research from the Stanford University School of Medicine and the University of California, Los Angeles revealed that wolves with black pelts owe their distinctive coloration to a mutation that first arose in domestic dogs.

Again, I disagree. You can see the "Black wolves = wolf dogs?" Page for my reasoning on this topic. (The last paragraph) ((This is not based off of any research of mine, but this is just my opinion.)) There's a ghost haunting you.~Ri_-_Writen by Ash~Ash (talk) 13:00, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

References

Wolf-dog hybrid?

Despite various authors - including the US Dept of Agriculture back in 1994 - referring to a wolf-dog cross as a "hybrid", it is not. You cannot cross lupus with lupus to form a hybrid; the grey wolf and the dog are the same species. The 1994 reference was written before MSW3 in 2005, which classified the dog as lupus - I propose that the name and the reference be removed. William Harris • (talk) • 08:20, 8 July 2018 (UTC)