Talk:Yamanoue no Okura/Archive 1

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Okura's origin （The commentary by juzumaru）

"Yamanoue Okura is a Japanese" is Common Sense of the historical science. And the hypothesis "Okura is a toraijin (foreigner)" doesn't have credibility. The reason is as the following content:

  • According to "新選姓氏録(Shinsen Shojiroku)" (Newly Compiled Register of Clan Names and Titles of Nobility), Okura is a distant branch of the imperial family of Japan.（Quote the relevant part "山上朝臣 大春日朝臣同祖、天足彦国忍人命の後 右京皇別下"）Therefore, "Okura is a Japanese" is common sense. Main Japanese encyclopedias are written "Okura is Japanese." And this record is quoted in plural treatises. （Show an example 「類衆歌林」覚え書き[1] 86page 「粟田真人は、文武四年に藤原不比等と共に律令選定を命ぜられており、この頃より不比等とのつながりが窺われよう。また、新選姓氏録などから山上憶良と同族出身である事が推定されるばかりか、大宝元年には憶良と共十分なように恩われる。」)
  • Yamanoue-Okura was a Japanese low-class bureaucrat of the about 7th century. Therefore, his life not recorded in detail. The name of the Okura(憶良) is close to the Chinese style than Japanese style. Therefore, someone claims "Okura is not Japanese. He is immigration."
  • This claim has been denied by Professor Aoki Kazuo experts ancient Japanese history. According to his book (「憶良帰化人説批判（Okura-Kikajin-setsu-Hihan）[2]」, "Okura was given a title of "臣 (Omi)" from the Japanese emperor. The title of "臣" (Omi) is not given to a Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants). Therefore, Okura is not Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants).")
  • Nakanishi Susumu is the scholar who is affirmative in this hypothesis (Okura is a Kikajin (Descendants of foreign immigrants)). However, he admits that this hypothesis can not be proven. According to his description, "Okura's Son (Yamanoue-Funanushi) given a title of "朝臣 (Ason)" from the Japanese emperor. The title of "朝臣 (Ason)" is not given to a Kikajin(foreign immigration). Therefore, Okura is not Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants)." (「朝臣姓を賜った山上船主を憶良の子と推定すれば、憶良の帰化人たらぬことは紛れようもない。」（I have quoted the book written by Nakanishi Susumu "Soukoku-to-meisou Yamnoue Okura wo Megute (相剋と迷走 - 山上憶良をめぐって)" ）
  • According to American-born Japanese literature scholar Donald Keene, "Okura wrote Kanshi (Chinese style poetry). But the emotion of his poetry is not Sino-Korean, was the spirit of the Japanese." (Quote from an interview with Daniel Keene of the book NHK Daily Manyoshu [3])
  • Now, there is no treatise which quoted in the affirmative "Okura is Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants).""
  • And famous encyclopedia of Japan ("Nihon Rekishi Jinbutsu Jiten" published by The Asahi Shinbun / Heibonsha World Encyclopedia / "Dainihon Jinmei Jiten" (Dictionary of Japanese Biography) published by The Kodansha / Daijisen published by The Shogakukan / Daijirin) do not describe this hypothesis(Okura is a toraijin (foreigner)).

(This is the copy that I have explained Ross Hill in December 31, 2013. And 182.249.240.xxx was watching the talk. [4] )

To stop the edit war

To prevent the edit battle, the page of Yamaue-Okura overwrites only 182.249.240.xxx's demand. (From the 12/24/2013, I stopped editing.)

  • 182.249.240.xxx rewrite "Okura to have likely been of Immigrants to ancient Japan descent." to "Okura to have likely been of Korean descent. " [5]
  • 182.249.240.xxx erased "The Yamanoue clan was a tributary of the Kasuga clan, who is a descendant of Emperor Kōshō. " [6]

I can add evidence to TalkPage if 182.249.240.xxx calms down. --Juzumaru (talk) 11:08, 6 January 2014 (UTC)

  • Your original reading of Heian-era primary sources like the Shinsen Shojiroku is not allowed on Wikipedia. Further, can you tell me which modern printed edition you are using, and on which page exactly is Yamanoue no Okura (not just "the Yamanoue clan") is mentioned??
  • It's become increasingly clear that your "famous encyclopedias of Japan" are just the dictionary (and some encyclopedia) entries you found on Kotobank.jp, with the one that mentions the theory (MyPedia) strategically left out.
  • Other encyclopedias, like Britannica Kokusai Dai-Hyakkajiten or Nihon Koten Bungaku Daijiten give extensive coverage to it.
  • Also, every one of the secondary sources you list is either extremely old (Aoki, Nakanishi) or clearly quoted out of context (Keene was clearly only talking of the language Okura used; his A History of Japanese Literature actually accepts the toraijin theory).
  • "Okura to have likely been of Immigrants to ancient Japan descent" is not English, and it's not my responsibility to improve your grammar when the original wording was fine, and more in line with what the sources actually say, and you only want to change it because of your POV.
  • Please do not reply here again unless you are willing to actually respond to my questions.
182.249.240.10 (talk) 13:49, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Specifically, I want you to tell me:
  1. which modern scholarly sources say Okura was a tributary of the Kasuga clan,
  2. explain where you got your specific list of famous "encyclopedias" (and dictionaries) of Japan that specifically don't mention the theory, and
  3. which modern (post-1980) sources discuss Okura in detail and don't even mention the toraijin theory.
182.249.240.31 (talk) 13:56, 6 January 2014 (UTC)
Also, Juzumaru, please stop breaking up the discussion. Each new comment does not get its own section on a talk page. 182.249.240.10 (talk) 15:26, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

To 182.249.240.xxx: "Many modern scholars"

182.249.240.xxx wrote "Many modern scholars such as Susumu Nakanishi consider Okura to have likely been of Korean descent."
Can you introduce five or more scholars? （Is "Many" an exaggeration?） --Juzumaru (talk) 10:23, 8 January 2014 (UTC)
My original source (Keene) gives this as the establishment view of Okura's origins (i.e., many/most specialists accept it). He states that the theory was first established 30 years earlier by Watanabe in 1963. Nakanishi and Levy are two more. Miller (the source for the statements you initially removed from this article) is apparently another. That's five, only listing scholars mentioned previously in this discussion. Tell me though: why do I have to list scholars? I'm not saying this article should say "most scholars" or the like. Can you list two scholars who disagree? (I know there are at least two, but clearly you have not already read up on this, and you certainly can't find a source that says "the toraijin theory is a non-theory and should not be mentioned in an encyclopedia article".) 182.249.240.35 (talk) 15:19, 9 January 2014 (UTC)
182.249.240.xxx could not introduce five or more scholars. Therefore I delete "Many modern scholars". This section is completed. --Juzumaru (talk) 09:21, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
I named Watanabe, Nakanishi, Keene, Miller, Levy, Vovin. That's six! 182.249.240.33 (talk) 11:20, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
  • Watabe Kazuo's hypothesis "his name is a China style. Therefore, he is a foreigner." 「（憶良の前半生）First half of Okura」(1969：NACSIS-CAT ID :AN00265261）
    • This hypothesis has been denied by Professor Aoki Kazuo experts ancient Japanese history. According to his book (「憶良帰化人説批判（Okura-Kikajin-setsu-Hihan）[7]」, "Okura was given a title of "臣 (Omi)" from the Japanese emperor. The title of "臣" (Omi) is not given to a Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants). Therefore, Okura is not Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants).")
  • Nakanishi Susumu is the scholar who is affirmative in this hypothesis (Okura is a Kikajin (Descendants of foreign immigrants)). However, he admits that this hypothesis can not be proven. According to his description, "Okura's Son (Yamanoue-Funanushi) given a title of "朝臣 (Ason)" from the Japanese emperor. The title of "朝臣 (Ason)" is not given to a Kikajin(foreign immigration). Therefore, Okura is not Kikajin(Descendants of foreign immigrants)." (「朝臣姓を賜った山上船主を憶良の子と推定すれば、憶良の帰化人たらぬことは紛れようもない。」（"Soukoku-to-meisou Yamnoue Okura wo Megute (相剋と迷妄 - 山上憶良をめぐって)" written by Nakanishi Susumu (1965：ISSN 0389-4029)
  • According to the interview with Donald Keene, "Okura wrote Kanshi (Chinese style poetry). But the emotion of his poetry is not Sino-Korean, was the spirit of the Japanese." (Quote from an interview with Daniel Keene of the book NHK Daily Manyoshu [8]) (However, he does not declare origin of Okura.)
  • Miller -Who?
  • Levy - Who?
  • Vovin -Who?
I will add the new information there. --Juzumaru (talk) 21:10, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Why did 182.249.240.xxx erased "The Yamanoue clan was a tributary of the Kasuga clan..."

Please explain why 182.249.240.xxx continues to erase "The Yamanoue clan was a tributary of the Kasuga clan, who is a descendant of Emperor Kōshō." --Juzumaru (talk) 09:35, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Because that's not a fact. It's an opinion/fringe theory of one scholar, Mori, who almost never publishes in this field. It is oppsed by the only other source any of us have found that mentions it (Vovin), and is based on what is almost certainly a misreading of a later source (憶良 is not mentioned anywhere in the Shinsen, and names beginning with憶 are only mentioned in association with immigrants from the Korean peninsula). 182.249.240.21 (talk) 11:24, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
  • "The Yamanoue clan was a tributary of the Kasuga clan...(山上朝臣の条にはその氏が大春日朝臣と同祖...)" was quoted from "Research of Shinsen-Shojiroku"（新撰姓氏録の基礎的研究）written by Saeki Arikiyo. (This book was awarded the Japan Academy Prize (academics) in 1984. [9].)
  • Yamanoue-Ason (山上朝臣) is the Yamanoue clan. Yamanoue Okura belong to this clan. This is the fact that Nakanishi agrees.
  • "names beginning with 憶 are only mentioned in association with immigrants from the Korean peninsula" is not related to Yamanoue-Okura. I quote the "names beginning with 憶 ".「The Atobekusushinoomi clan's ancestor is 憶徳 who came from Goryeo.」「The Ishino clan's ancestor is 憶頼 who came from Baekje.」These two clans are unrelated to Okura.
  • Once again, Why did 182.249.240.xxx erased "The Yamanoue clan was a tributary of the Kasuga clan..." --Juzumaru (talk) 21:10, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

Article protected

I have just protected this article for all editing for three days to encourage dispute resolution. I'd suggest seeking input at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan and/or following the other steps at WP:DR. Please let me know if consensus on the contested issues is reached before the protection expires and I'll lift it (alternately, this can be requested at WP:RFPP. Nick-D (talk) 02:13, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

Looks like 182.249... is Hijiri88 (talk · contribs). Logging out to make problematic edits as an IP address is not allowed. See WP:SOCK. 114.164.114.173 (talk) 07:24, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Which sources should we be using?

I'm not the one who removed the Miller source. The statement attached to the Mori source doesn't belong in this article unless Mori specifically mentions OKURA (not just "the Yamanoue clan"). I am willing to discuss whether Tomioka is more relevant than the Levy source, either here or on RSN, but it should be noted that the Levy source APPEARS to be more relevant (speech given by a specialist in this area, in English, published by a major academic institution) and was already upheld by consensus at RSN before it was replaced with the Tomioka source. 182.249.240.23 (talk) 03:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC) (H88)

While searching for Mori (apparently a historian with a background in the relations between Japan and the Asian mainland in the classical period) I found this. Apparently he gave an unconvincing argument about Okura's origins, based on what seems like an unintuitive reading of Shinsen Shojiroku. The article should not be citing a lone scholar's fringe POV as fact, and it's clear that User:Juzumaru, in his constant claims that I am trying to make the article say "Okura is Korean" is engaging in gross projection. And I think we can add Vovin to the list of scholars not convinced by Juzumaru's arguments. Also, his bogus encyclopedia argument has failed too (I'll post quotations when I charge my phone, but virtually all Japanese encyclopedias cover the toraijin theory). 182.249.240.10 (talk) 09:58, 10 January 2014 (UTC)
Looks like 182.249... is Hijiri88 (talk · contribs). Logging out to make problematic edits as an IP address is not allowed. See WP:SOCK. 114.164.114.173 (talk) 07:24, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
So basically the response to a valid breakdown of the circumstances is "Yeah, well, you have an account". This ironically from an IP who clearly added this page to his WP:WATCHLIST because I edited ut in the past. Nice. 182.249.241.37 (talk) 04:53, 18 January 2014 (UTC) Hjr88

Okura toraijin (kikajin) theory

I have never said this is anything other than a theory, and have not tried to add the text "Okura is Korean"[10] (or "Okura is South Korean"![11]) to the article. This is a ridiculous straw man argument, clearly aimed at removing the whole discussion as part of some non-historical, non-literary agenda that runs contrary to the goal of Wikipedia. The theory is accepted by a great many respected literary historians (Nakanishi, Keene, Levy), and even its detractors (Aoki) see the need to go out of their way to criticize the theory. Almost no in-depth works on Okura written in the last 30 years dismiss the theory out of hand or completely ignore it. Basing an encyclopedia article's "NPOV" on a very few (old?) dictionary entries[12] on Okura that just happen not to mention the theory is patently ridiculous. 182.249.240.31 (talk) 09:08, 1 January 2014 (UTC)

Looks like 182.249... is Hijiri88 (talk · contribs). Logging out to make problematic edits as an IP address is not allowed. See WP:SOCK. 114.164.233.125 (talk) 15:00, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Origin theories as covered in encyclopedia and dictionary entries on Okura

So yeah, I went to my local university library and picked out all (or most) of the reference works that had entries devoted to Yamanoue no Okura (or "Yamanoue Okura" or "Yamanoe no Okura"), and here is what I found, arranged in roughly chronological order:

Quotations of origin-related materials from a broad range of tertiary reference works. Be warned: here be giants.

(No mention of any theories of origins.)

— (No author named), 日本と世界の人名大事典, 文学博士谷山茂編『山上憶良』 (むさし書房, 1965)


(No mention of any theories of origins.)

— 平田 (?), 日本古代史事典『山上憶良』 (朝倉書店, 1974)


斉明６(６６０)百済～天平３(７３３)

— (No author named), ブリタニ カ国際大百科事典, フランク・B・ギブニー編『山上憶良』 (ティビーエス・ブリタニカ, 1974)
(This is the same "Britannica" I quoted earlier, but in this [earlier?] edition his birthplace is given unambiguously as "Baekje" with no question mark.)


(No mention of any theories of origins, but the article puts a question mark after the 660 birth date, and specifies that the first time his name appears in the historical record is 701.)

— 川口 常孝 (????-????), Encyclopedia Genre Japonica 万有百科事典, 第6巻『山上憶良』 (小学館, 1976)


柿本人麿の祖といわれる天足彦忍人命の後斎 [(??My camera skills aren't perfect, and the image is blurry -- I think the furigana reads こうまい)] と伝えられるが、帰化人の子孫かともいわれる。

— 伊藤 博 (1925~2003), Encyclopedia Japonica, 大日本百科事典『山上憶良』 (小学館, 1983)
(It has been said that he was a こうまい?? of Ame-tarashi-hiko-oshi-hito-no-mikoto, who was an ancestor of Kakinomoto no Hitomaro, but some say he was a descendant of immigrants.)


山上氏は孝昭天皇の末とされているが、渡来人の子孫かとも疑われる。

— 中西 進 (1929- ), 旺文社百科事典[エポカ], 第17巻『山上憶良』 (旺文社, 1983)
(The Yamanoue clan was supposed to be descended from Emperor Kosho, but it's also been considered that he may have been descended from immigrants.)


なお、山上憶良を渡来系氏族の出身とする説もあるが、臣姓であるから、成立しがたいと思われる。

— 和田 萃 (1944- ), 新編 日本史辞典, 京大日本史辞典編纂会編『山上憶良』 (東京創元社, 1990)
(There are theories that he was descended from foreign immigrants, but because he had the title "Omi" these theories are unlikely to be proven.)


出自は不明。百済の渡来人とする説もあるが確かではない。

— 遠藤 宏 (1936- ), Encyclopedia Nipponica 2001 日本大百科全書, 第23巻『山上憶良』 (小学館, 1994)
(Origin unknown. Theories that he was an immigrant from Baekje are unproven.)


なお、大宝元年以前の閲歴が不明で、川島皇子の周辺にあった写経生であ ろうとか、僧侶でのちに還俗したのであろうとか、諸説を見るが、確かではない。天智朝に渡来した百済からの亡命者の子とする説も出されたが、『新撰姓氏録』右京皇別に粟田朝臣と同祖と記していることや、『続日本紀』神護景雲二年(七六八)に朝臣賜姓の記事をみる山上臣船主が近親者と考えられることなどから渡来人説 を否定する意見の方が強い。

— 稲岡 耕二 (1929- ), 國史大辭典, 第14巻『山上憶良 』 (吉川弘文館, 1997)
(The theory that he was the son of a refugee from Baekje has been proposed, but other evidence, such as that the Shinsen Shojiroku describes him as being of imperial ancestry just as the Awata clan, suggests the authors who say otherwise have the stronger case.)


山於憶良とも。 [...] 漢学の知識や特異な思想性から帰化人であったとの説 もあるが、臣姓であることから考えても疑問。

— (No author named), 日本史広辞典, 日本史広辞典編集委員会『山上憶良』 (山川出版社, 1997)
(Also called 山於憶良 [I include this because his surname being 山於 seems to negate the possibility that he was the 山上 mentioned in the Shinsen Shojiroku] [...] Because of his knowledge of Chinese studies and his unique philosophy, there are theories that he was an immigrant, but because he had the title "Omi" these theories are uncertain.)


(No mention of any theories of origins.)

— (No author named), 岩波日本史辞典, 永原慶二・石上英一編『山上憶良』 (岩波書店, 1999)


(No mention of any theories of origins, but includes Nakanishi's book "山上憶良" in the bibliography.)

— 市瀬 雅之 (19??-????), 日本古代史大辞典―旧石器時代~鎌倉幕府成立頃, 上田正昭・井上満朗編『山上憶良』 (大和書房, 2006)


百済からの渡来人憶仁の子か。

— (No author named), コンサイス日本人名 事典, 三省堂編修所編『山上憶良』 (三省堂, 2008)
(Possibly the son of Okuni, an immigrant from Baekje.)


その出自をめぐって、通説は《新撰姓氏録》によって皇別の粟田朝臣氏の一支流が居所山上を名のったというものであるが、百済系渡来人説も唱えられ、一 方その反論もあり、いまだに決着を見ない。

— 井村 哲夫 (????-????), 世界大百科事典, ??編『山上憶良』 (平凡社, 19??[I didn't write down the year, and it has apparently gone through several editions])
(Regarding his origins, the common view is that he was one of the Yamanoue who were a branch of the Awata clan who were listed as descendants of the imperial family in the Shinsen Shojiroku, but theories that he was an immigrant from Baekje have also been presented, with counterarguments on the other side as well, and there still doesn't seem to be a consensus.)


(No mention of any theories of origins, but the article was written in English and has probably gone unedited for a while, and who knows how old its original sources were?)

— (No author named), Encyclopedia Britannica (didn't get the date or the editor, but we all know it -- it's the same encyclopedia that's been cited billions of times on this site. ;-)

That's 15 reference books. (I left out the ones Juzumaru already found[13] on Kotobank.jp and the other ones I already cited[14][15], unless they said something different from what was previously stated.)

Of these 15:

  • 6 don't mention the origin theories at all, and of these 6 most are very old or (being not Japanese) likely based only on older sources, 1 specifies that nothing is known of his early life, and 1 references Nakanishi's book (which I haven't read, but, according to Levy, propounds the Nakanishi theory).
    • If we assume English Britannica is based on old sources, then of these 6, 4 are pre-1980.
  • Of the other 9, all 9 specifically cite the Nakanishi theory as a possibility, while only 2-4 specifically mention the Mori theory as an alternative.
  • Of the 2 that clearly cite the Mori theory (mentioning the Shinsen Shojiroku by name), 1 gives it as one of a few pieces of evidence why, although neither theory can be "proven", the Nakanishi theory is weak, and the other 1 gives it as the establishment view that has been attacked from all sides in recent years, with no apparent consensus.
  • Of the other 7:
    • 1 simply states "He was born in Baekje".
    • 2 mention no other possibilities and just imply that the Nakanishi theory is the most probable.
    • 1 (ironically written by Nakanishi himself) states that Okura has been considered a descendant of Emperor Kosho but some have questioned whether he might have been of foreign ancestry. (This might be referring to the Mori theory, although the imperial ancestry cited appears to be different from the Shinsen Shojiroku.)
    • 1 appears to say he may have been a cousin of Kakinomoto no Hitomaro, but gives the Nakanishi theory as just as likely. (This is probably citing the Mori theory, as Ame-tarashi-hiko-oshi-hito-no-mikoto is mentioned in both the article and the Shinsen Shojiroku passage.)
    • 2 cite the Nakanishi theory, but say it's weak because of Okura's title "Omi". This is not the same as the Mori theory.

(For convenience's sake, I'm following Vovin 2012 in referring to the theory that a young Okura fled the destruction of Baekje with his father, and its variants, as "the Nakanishi theory", and theories that Okura was a member of the Yamanoue clan, mentioned in the Shinsen Shojiroku as being of imperial descent along with the Awata clan, as the "Mori theory". Also, my analysis of the Mori theory is hindered by my only having access to free online versions of the Shinsen Shojiroku, therefore I have to trust that some bloggers got it right.)

Juzumaru's previous claim that no encyclopedia states "Okura is Korean" has actually turned out to be wrong (ブリタニカ国際大百科事典, 1st ed., simply states he was born in Korea), but I was never arguing that we should say "Okura is Korean" to begin with. It seems the idea that there was some family connection between Okura, the Awata clan and Emperor Kosho, is the second best-established theory regarding Okura's origins, as covered in general reference works. It therefore should be mentioned as one of the possibilities, but clearly should not be given as distinctly more likely than the idea that Okura originated in Baekje, which is obviously the most well-established theory.

Keene, Levy, and Vovin are apparently the only reliable secondary sources either myself or Juzumaru have consulted so far, and all of them take the Nakanishi theory as far more likely, going so far as to largely/completely ignore the Mori theory; all of Juzumaru's citations of i nterviews with Keene and very old books by Nakanishi are obvious misrepresentations, as I have already demonstrated; his claim above [16] that he has quoted the work of Saeki is misleading, as he has not indicated where Saeki specifically refers to Okura and not just "the Yamanoue clan"; Aoki is actually a scholar I first told Juzumaru about, who may be an expert in Japanese history, but not more than Nakanishi or the others, and he just happens to be the main opponent of the Nakanishi theory (according to Keene). (Above I say "myself or Juzumaru", because 114, an obvious sock, should not have his/her opinions counted, and it seems likely Mori and Tomioka are only being used as excuses to undo my edits as revenge for some -- imagined? -- slight.)

Please also note that, unlike Juzumaru, I have included all the information I could find, even if it appears to contradict me. This is because I do not have a dog in this race: I don't frankly care if Okura came from the Korean peninsula or not, and am only trying to write a neutrally-worded encyclopedia using the highest-quality sources; Juzumaru has been trying to remove all references to Korea for ... his own reasons. I think we should mention all theories covered in reliable sources, weighted appropriately, and let the reader make up their own mind; Juzumaru apparently thinks we should remove all reference to the Nakanishi theory and cite the (apparently relatively obscure) Mori theory as fact, with no further elaboration.[17][18][19]

I have presented a lot of quotations in this post. If anyone (other than Juzumaru) thinks I have misquoted or misrepresented anything, I would be all too happy to correct myself.

Cheers!

182.249.240.35 (talk) 16:20, 11 January 2014 (UTC) (H88)

Good work. There's clearly sufficient grounds for including the Baekje origin theory in the article. I think you may be overstating Keene's position a little, though (it seems to me that while Keene discusses the theory, he falls short of actually endorsing it himself). If I may suggest a wording for the section, I would go with something like: "Yamanoue's origns are the subject of debate. Many scholars, most notably Susumu Nakanishi, consider it likely that Okura was originally a refugee from the Korean kingdom of Baekje who fled to Japan as a child following the Tang dynasty's invasion in 663, pointing to his unusual first name and the presence of Baekje loanwords in his poems. Some reject this theory, however, noting that Yamanoue's kabane of Omi was not granted to those of non-Japanese origin, for example." --Cckerberos (talk) 03:12, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Keene discusses it, sympathetically, and doesn't discuss any opposing views. It's also very difficult to read the paragraph beginning "Okura's distinctive style" on p.139 as not endorsing the theory, especially in contrast to how he treats Nakanishi's theory of Princess Nukata's supposed origins in Silla (notes 76 & 82). 182.249.5.70 (talk) 13:15, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
By,which I mean I like your wording. Do you wanna do the honours or shall I? 182.249.122.27 (talk) 14:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)
Looks like 182.249... is Hijiri88 (talk · contribs). Logging out to make problematic edits as an IP address is not allowed. See WP:SOCK. 114.164.114.173 (talk) 07:22, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
The editor using the 182.249.240.xx IP addresses has already established here and at ANI that he is a registered editor unable to use his account for technical reasons. He's not intending to violate WP:SOCK and there's no reason to keep edit warring over this point. Hopefully we won't see any more and we won't have to issue blocks or semiprotect the talk page.--Cúchullain t/c 16:52, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
As the edit warring continued immediately after this warning, I've blocked 114.164.114.173 (talk · contribs · count).--Cúchullain t/c 17:03, 13 January 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, but canvassing which is done with the intention of influencing the outcome of a discussion in a particular way is considered inappropriate. See WP:CAN. 114.164.233.125 (talk) 15:00, 19 January 2014 (UTC)
I asked User:Cuchullain, an admin who has dealt with the above sock-user in the past, to look at the obvious sockpuppetry/hounding issues. He did not comment on content, nor did I ask him to. User:Cckerberos was "canvassed" on WT:JAPAN where I posted a neutrally worded request for an outside opinion, following the advice of User:Ross Hill. 182.249.241.28 (talk) 13:02, 21 January 2014 (UTC)
114.164.233.125's editing pattern suggests they are not here to improve the article or the encyclopedia. Please stop edit warring immediately. If this continues you will be blocked again.--Cúchullain t/c 14:56, 21 January 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't gonna post any more evidence as it seemed redundant, but Juzumaru's last two edits imply he's gonna come back at the end of the month. I went to a different university library and got a copy of 日本古典文学研究史大事典, a work designed specifically to cover things like academic disputes. It says the theory came under fire in the 1970s and 80s, from 歴史学者 (perhaps to say "not literary scholars" -- this would fit every single scholar Juzumaru has cited, and is actually the wording used by the 日本古典文学大事典 as well), but this controversy has mostly died down by "now"(=1997). It doesn't seem to say which side won, but ... Levy and Vovin are the only literary scholars cited here from the last five years, and they both accept the theory as the orthodox view. 182.249.122.27 (talk) 14:43, 17 January 2014 (UTC)

Summary of controversy by Juzumaru

Introduction

Yamanoue no Okura was a poet during the early Nara Period. however, his detailed career such as date of birth and death is unknown.

The user 182.249.240.xxx demanded to edit the Yamanoue no Okura as follows:

1. overwrite "Okura to have likely been of Immigrants to ancient Japan descent." to "Okura to have likely been of Korean descent. " [20]
2. Erase "The Yamanoue clan was a tributary of the Kasuga clan, who is a descendant of Emperor Kōshō. " [21]

I was opposed to 182.249.240.xxx's demand. (The reason is written to the following section.)

As a result, 182.249.240.xxx accused me to the administrator. "Juzumaru's editing is a fringe POV and the Far-right politics."[22] And He has petitioned the WP:BLOCK or WP:TBAN of Juzumaru. [23][24]

Therefore, I decided that the discussion with 182.249.240.xxx was difficult. To prevent the edit battle, I stop editing of this article. And I want Members of WikiProject Japan to succeed this dispute.

The summary of my explanation is described in the next section.

About Okura kikajin theory

Okura kikajin theory (憶良帰化人説) is a hypothesis suggested by well-known scholar of Japanese literature, Nakanishi Susumu in about 1965. Nakanishi insisted that Yamanoue no Okura was a naturalized citizen from the Baekje. his hypothesis was constructed by circumstantial evidence such as He was familiar with the Chinese culture. However his hypothesis was denied by validation based on historical facts of historians. (However, Nakanisi still clung to his hypothesis.)

I explain the chronology of this hypothesis in the next section.

supplementary explanation : Kikajin

Kikajin refers to people who came to Japan from abroad in a broad sense, but it also refers to people who became naturalized citizens of Japan from the Chinese continent via the Ryukyu Islands or the Korean Peninsula in ancient times in a limited sense.

Okura kikajin theory

  • 1965 : Nakanishi Susumu presented an article titled 'Thought and conflict about the Okura 「相剋と迷妄--山上憶良をめぐって」'[25]
    • Nakanishi He doubted as follows : "He was a lower class, but he was knowledgeable about Chinese literature. Therefore, isn't he a Kikajin ? (「卑姓の憶良のあの学殖は、どこで蓄え得たのか」) "
    • Nakanishi guessed that Okura's father was Okuni (憶仁) of Baekje's refugee (one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea). Okura and Okuni is using the same chinese characters(憶). In other words, Okura is Okuni's children.
    • At the same time, Nakanishi has pointed out the problem with this hypothesis. "Son of Okura was given the title of Ason(朝臣). This title is granted only to the descendants of the emperor. Therefore, he is not a Kikajin.（「(山上)船主を憶良の子と推測すれば、憶良の帰化人たらぬことは紛れようもない」)"
  • 1969 : Watanabe Kazuo presented an article titled 'Okura-no-Zenhansei 「憶良の前半生」"the first half of Okura's life.' [26]
    • The hypothesis of Watanabe is as follows : "The name of the Okura(憶良) is not common for the then Japanese. His name is close to the Chinese style than Japanese style. Therefore, "Okura is not Japanese. He is kikajin."
  • 1969 : Nakanishi Susumu presented an article titled 'Okura-Kikajinron 「憶良帰化人論」"Okura toraijin (kikajin) theory"'[27]
Ancestor of Yamanoue clan is Amatarashi-Hikokuni-Oshihito-no-Mikoto (足彦国押人命) Nakanishi was classified into three types of Amatarashi-Hikokuni-Oshihito-no-Mikoto's descendants (Hiko-oketsu/Hiko-kunibuku/Tagane-tsuki). Yamanoue clan has been classified as Hiko-kunibuku's descendants.
(中西は新撰姓氏録に山上朝臣が同祖とする粟田朝臣の祖先が「天足彦国押人命」と記されていることに基づいて、天足彦国押人命の後裔42氏族を古事記・日本書紀に照らして、ヒコオケツ/ヒコクニブク/タガネツキの3種類に分類した。そして、山上氏はヒコクニブクの子孫と定義した。)
Nakanishi concluded that Yamanoue clan is a tributary of Awata clan. And, Nakanishi guessed that Okura's father migrated to Omi province, and joined Yamenoue clan.
(中西は山上氏を近江甲賀に定住した粟田氏の傍流として定義し、天智・天武の医者として仕えた億仁は近江甲賀に住み、山上氏から一族に迎え入れれたと推測した。)
  • 1973 : Aoki Kazuo presented an article titled 'Okura-Kikajinron-Hihan 「憶良帰化人論批判」 "To criticize the Okura kikajin theory"」[28]
    • Aoki has denied the Nakanishi's hypothesis by using a historical fact.
1. "Okura was given a title of "臣 (Omi)" from the Japanese emperor. The title of "臣" (Omi) is not given to a Kikajin. Therefore, Okura is not Kikajin.)
2. The name of the 憶良 can be read Japanese style. (憶良 is able to read as "Ora")
3. There is no historical record "Okuni is a father of Okunra." The family name of Okuni is not 山上(Yamanoue).
4. According to "新選姓氏録(Shinsen Shojiroku)" (Newly Compiled Register of Clan Names and Titles of Nobility), "栗田朝臣：朝臣：大春日朝臣同祖。(Awata clan is "朝臣 (Ason)" class. Ancestors of this clan is Kasuga clan. of descendants of the Japanese imperial family) 山上朝臣 朝臣 同氏。(Yamanoue clan is also "朝臣 (Ason)" class. Their ancestors is the same as Awata Clan. )" In other words, Yamauchi clan is not a descendant of Kikajin.
  • 1981: Higo Ryuukai (Professor of the Faculty of literature, Meiji University) presented an article titled 'Origin of Yamanoue Okura・A supplementary sequel '「山上臣憶良の出自・補続--憶良帰化人論をめぐって」[29]
    • Higo has denied the Nakanishi's hypothesis by using a historical fact.
1. Kikajin that came from Korea do not use the name of the parent to the child's name. "憶" cannot be used for a name by parent("憶仁") and child("憶良").
2. Kikajin that came from Korea inherits an occupation. However, Okura has not inherited the occupation (Doctor) of Okuni.
3. Okuni was given an title (勤大壱) from the emperor tenmu. However, Okura does not inherit the high title. (At first, Okura was a government official without a title.)
Currently, there is no historian who supports the hypothesis of the Nakanishi.

supplementary explanation : 朝臣(Ason) / 臣(Omi)

  • In 684, 'Yakusa no Kabane' (eight official titles to be conferred upon nobles) was established by Emperor Tenmu.
    • 朝臣(Ason) ranked 2nd by the Yakusa no Kabane. The title given to the Imperial Family's distant cousin
    • 臣(Omi) ranked 6nd by the Yakusa no Kabane. This title succeeds to a title of the Japanese ancient regime. （Many clans is a branch of the Japanese imperial family.）
  • According to Shoku Nihongi (Chronicle of Japan Continued), Okura was given no title in 701. ("无位山於億良") Okura gave the title of 臣(Omi)in 714.
  • According to Shoku Nihongi (Chronicle of Japan Continued), The son of Okura (Yamanoue no Funanushi) gave the title of 朝臣(Ason) in 768.

Should we erase Shinsen Shōjiroku ?

"The Yamanoue clan was a tributary of the Kasuga clan...(山上朝臣の条にはその氏が大春日朝臣と同祖...)"
("Research of Shinsen-Shojiroku" was awarded the Japan Academy Prize (academics) in 1984. [30].)

  • 182.249.240.xxx continued erasing all reference to the Record of Shinsen Shōjiroku that "The Yamanoue no Okura was a tributary of the Kasuga clan."
  • About the reason to erase, 182.249.240.xxx answered as follows. :

Because that's not a fact. It's an opinion/fringe theory of one scholar, Mori, who almost never publishes in this field. It is oppsed by the only other source any of us have found that mentions it (Vovin), and is based on what is almost certainly a misreading of a later source (憶良 is not mentioned anywhere in the Shinsen, and names beginning with 憶 are only mentioned in association with immigrants from the Korean peninsula). 182.249.240.21 (talk) 11:24, 10 January 2014 (UTC)

  • "names beginning with 憶 " is recorded in the Shinsen-Shojiroku as follows :
    • 1.The Atobekusushinoomi clan's ancestor is 憶徳 who came from Goryeo. (出自高麗国人大兄憶徳也)
    • 2.The Ishino clan's ancestor is 憶頼 who came from Baekje. (出自百済国人近速王孫憶頼福留也)
  • These two clans are divided into 'Shoban'. The clans of 'Shoban' were clans of kikajin (people from overseas, particularly from China and Korea)
  • Yamanouchi Okura's clan are divided into 'Kōbetsu'. The clans of 'Kōbetsu' were clans descended from the Japanese imperial families.
In other words, 182.249.240.xxx's historical knowledge is a mistake. Therefore 182.249.240.xxx's demand should be rejected.

supplementary explanation : Shinsen Shōjiroku

  • Shinsen Shōjiroku is an ancient clan-name register or directory that was compiled by an order from Emperor Saga in the early Heian period.
  • For the 1182 clans that lived in Heian-kyo (the ancient capital of Japan in the current Kyoto) and the Kinai region (the five capital provinces surrounding the ancient capitals of Nara and Kyoto), "Shinsen Shojiroku" describes the origin of their family names, how the pedigrees branched and other information by classifying the clans, based on the place of origin, into Kōbetsu (皇別) (clans that branched out from the Imperial Family), Shinbetsu (神別) (clans the branched out of the Ancient powerful clan (Descendants of the God of the region)) and Shoban (諸蕃) (descendents of immigrants from Korean Peninsula, Mainland China, and other areas) to clarify their ancestors.

Conclusions

about this dispute, Steven D. Carter Department of Asian Languages Stanford University, describes the most appropriate.

"One of the most distinguished members of Otomo no Tabito's Kyushu salon was a scholar named Yamanoue no Okura. Some scholars contend that he was born on the continent to a scholarly father who emigrated to Japan and eventually became physician to several Japanese emperors. Whatever the case, Okura was raised in Japan, although with a Chinese- style education in the classics and, of course, in poetry. " ("Traditional Japanese Poetry: An Anthology" by Steven D. Carter Stanford University Press, Stanford, 199 - page44 )

Trivia

  • When Levy had translated the Man'yōshū, he knew this hypothesis.
  • Some Kikajin（foreigners）seemed to do self-expression in Japanese poetry
  • Levy thinks that this hypothesis suggests true globalization.

--Juzumaru (talk) 19:29, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

This concludes my explanation.　(2014/02/15 Update)

I will do some corrections in the future. And, I verify the thesis of Hideo Levy. (I was not found in the thesis of Donald Keene written in the Japanese which supports an Okura kikajin theory.) --Juzumaru (talk) 10:06, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

Juzumaru, this is not an article about Japanese history, it's an an article about classical Japanese literature. The two are different fields. If no scholars of "Japanese history" accept a theory but the majority of literary scholars do, that doesn't mean we shouldnt include it. Your Shinsen Shojiroku claim, on the other hand, is a fringe theory. If you touch this article before actually addressing the issues raised here, and ceasing to completely ignore me and prop up straw men, I will revert you. Also, please actually read the Keene source I cited a year ago. Its language is irrelevant, but it IS available in Japanese (ドナルド・キーン『日本文学史』). 182.249.241.7 (talk) 15:40, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
> this is not an article about Japanese history, it's an an article about classical Japanese literature.
Yamanoue no Okura is not a fictitious character. He is a real person in history.
I said this article is about literature, not history, because the two are different fields. None of the historians you have cited earned degrees in Man'yo scholarship like Nakanishi, Levy, etc. They are scholars of 日本史 (or 東洋史 or some such), NOT 日本文学. Because the scholars you cite are not specialists, none of them has ever been allowed write an encyclopedia article on the topic. And, as is covered in 日本古典文学研究史大事典's summary of the controversy noted, they have been silent on the issue since the 1980s. Specialist encyclopedias like the 日本古典文学大辞典 or 日本古典文学研究史大事典 all specify that it is 歴史学者, not 日本文学研究者, who reject(ed) the Nakanishi theory, and most general reference works, as I have already demonstrated, give it as the most likely or only theory of his origins. 182.249.240.4 (talk) 12:48, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
> Your Shinsen Shojiroku claim, on the other hand, is a fringe theory.
182.249.241.xxx has to prove "explanation of Aoki Kazuo is fringe theory."
Unlike the Nakanishi theory, Aoki's claims get virtually no coverage in reliable tertiary sources. What more proof do you need? 182.249.240.24 (talk) 13:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
> please actually read the Keene source I cited a year ago.
How many pages of that book (ドナルド・キーン『日本文学史』) do I have to read?
My Japanese version (古代・中世の篇Ⅰ) is missing, but it's primarily the second paragraph of the section discussing Okura in chapter 3 (page 139 in the English version) and note 9 in said chapter. But I already told you this much. 182.249.240.24 (talk) 13:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
And why does your "summary of the controversy" end in 1981? I've already named four specialist sources from within the last 20 years that cover the toraijin theory and basically dismiss all your claims. 182.249.241.3 (talk) 16:42, 24 January 2014 (UTC)
> And why does your "summary of the controversy" end in 1981?
It is because the verification of Nakanishi's hypothesis is completed in 1981. The evidence to prove a hypothesis of Nakanishi is not announced afterwards.
All but two of the post-1981sources that have been cited by any of us mention the theory, and virtually all of those accept it. 182.249.240.24 (talk) 13:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
> I've already named four specialist sources from within the last 20 years that cover the toraijin theory and basically dismiss all your claims.
There is no thesis of Yamanoue no Okura in the source that 182.249.241.xxx presented. As an example, 182.249.241.xxx's evidence is one paragraph of the speeches of a Japanese translator, Hideo Levy.
I don't know what you mean by "thesis" (これだけ、日本語でお願いします？), but all of them accept the theory as being about as close to a "fact" as these things can be. 182.249.240.24 (talk) 13:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
The explanation of Juzumaru is constructed by an academic treatise about Yamanoue no Okura.--Juzumaru (talk) 19:29, 1 February 2014 (UTC)
Again, your poor English may be at fault, but ... WP:NOR? ja:Wikipedia:独自研究は載せない? I think you aren't getting what Wikipedia is all about. 182.249.240.24 (talk) 13:23, 2 February 2014 (UTC)
Please note that the suggestion above was from Cckerberos, not me. I've only commented on administrator matters.--Cúchullain t/c 22:54, 3 February 2014 (UTC)

Origins -- Dwy's edit on 12:30, 8 February 2014

Should the "Origins" section include explanation on how Nakanishi argued his Okura toraijin (kikajin) theory based on Shinsen Shojiroku. Dwy (talk) 15:45, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

182.249.240.xxx has been insisting that Susumu Nakanishi's theory that Okura was born in Baekje should be presented as the majority opinion in the relevant academic field. As you can see in the discussion here, I do not agree on that, but 182.249.240.xxx has taken so uncompromising stand so I conceded to let it go for the moment. As it happened, the article relied entirely on a tertiary source for the description of Nakanishi's theory, and the information given was terribly insufficient both in quality and quantity. So I made a revision based on Nakanishi's own work, strictly adhering to what he wrote.[33] To my great surprise, however, 182.249.240.xxx reverted my edit, saying it was POV.[34] I cannot believe this because the only reason I wrote about Nakanishi theory was that 182.249.240.xxx so adamantly insisted it was the majority view. How can a majority view be POV? I have no idea at all. Maybe 182.249.240.xxx just liked the "Okura was born in Beakje" part and was not interested at all in how Nakanishi argued to come to that conclusion? I really don't know what to do.--Dwy (talk) 15:28, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Note Dwy could not possibly have been surprised that I reverted him, as I asked him numerous times on WT:JAPAN not to post that version of his text until he presented some evidence that other encyclopedias treat the Baekje origin theory as dismissively as his edit did. Nakanishi has never written that his theory is "not supported by historians". He is himself the premier historian in this field, and the theory is by far the best-established among specialists in this field, as I already demonstrated above. This is pretty consistent with how Dwy and Juzumaru have been misrepresenting and distorting sources throughout this discussion. Note also that Juzumaru and Dwy have throughout this discussion[35][36] (and most recently in the article itself[37]) been deliberately mistranslation the word rekishi-gakusha with the generic term "historians" or equivalent, where in this context rekishi-gakusha refers to political historians as opposed to literary historians who specialize in this field. Wikipedians, use your brains: neither Dwy nor Juzumaru have ever edited in the area of classical Japanese literature before, where virtually every edit I have made is in this area; all of Juzumaru and Dwy's article edits, further, work to promote a particular 21st-century political POV. 182.249.240.31 (talk) 16:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Dwy wrote a more in-depth description than what is there presently. The only thing that I would change is "is not supported by historians", and I'd replace it with "is not universally excepted" and then explain other minority views. There should be historians explicitly mentioned 182.249.240.36 (talk) 02:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)(i.e. their name). I changed 182.249.24xxx's current version for violating WP:NPOV with the word "attacked" which obviously shows that he's being defensive. I think at this point, after reviewing all this debate and all of the listed sources, that the Origins section should basically say "his origins are unknown, however the major theories are that he is of Korean ancestry or that he is of royal Japanese ancestry", and of course say more about each theory than what I just wrote. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 19:08, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I apologize if my wording was not fully NPOV. You must understand that I have been forced to be somewhat ad hoc in my editing of this article, all the while with someone in the wings calling me names and attacking me. However, I think we should ask ourselves why Dwy'first draft said "literary historians" but was changed to "literary scholars", and where it was originally rejected by "some historians" where now it is rejected by "historians". Throughout this entire discussion both Dwy and Juzumaru have been taking a very derogatory view of scholars who specialize in this area, avoiding referring to them as historians where possible and referring to Levy as an American-born Japanese "author" (obviously a reference to how, after publishing two scholarly books on the Manyoshu, he switched careers to write fiction). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 182.249.240.28 (talk) 01:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Also, please note that of 11 encyclopedias covering the origin theories, all eleven cover Nakanishi's theory, where only four mention the Shinsen Shojiroku (two others list the same theory without mentioning its source). 182.249.240.28 (talk) 01:50, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
The historian named on the opposing side should undoubtedly be Aoki Kazuo, "perhaps the most articulate opponent" (Keene 1999 : 160, note 9). However, I still think we should point out that he, like the other principal opponents of the theory, was not a specialist in this area. Of the three specialist reference works discussing the theory and its opponents (Keene, Nihon Koten-Bungaku Kenkyuu-shi Daijiten and Nihon Koten-Bungaku Daijiten) two of them specify this, and the third basically dismisses the opposing views and supports the Nakanishi theory. 182.249.240.36 (talk) 02:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
So, we all agree to write about Nakanishi’s theory. The only issue is whether we should rely on the brief summary in tertiary sources or on Nakanishi’s original work that argues the matter exhaustively in 23-pages. To me, the answer is obvious.
Nakanishi didn’t just say Okura came from Baekje. He also gave us in-depth explanation why he thought it likely, and “Shinsen Shojiroku” forms the central part of the explanation. Again, this is quite obvious to anyone who has read Nakanishi’s book directly.
I am not too crazy about writing about the “major theory” that he is of royal Japanese ancestry (as opposed to the “fact” that there exists a historical document recording a family legend to that effect) . This is a barren field that few academics ever wanted to plow, and I doubt that there is any noteworthy academic work having attempted to verify Okura’s imperial genealogy.
I am actually of the opinion that the issue of Okura’s origin belongs to the field of history, rather than literature, and I believe that is why Nakanishi (as a literary scholar lacking specialist knowledge in history) asked for the opinion of historians.
I revised my draft edit from “refuted by SOME historians” to “not supported by historians” because I thought that the revised wordings were more faithful to Nakanishi’s original statement 「帰化人の推定について史家の意見を仰いだところ「臣」たることに異議があった」.（Nakanishi Susumu (1973), “ Yamanoue no Okura”, Kawade Shobo Shinsha, p.45）
I do not remember writing"literary historians." There may be some confusion on the part of 182.249.240.xxx.
It is not me or Juzumaru who are “taking a very derogatory view of scholars who specialize in this area.” It is actually Aoki Kazuo who claimed that Nakanishi neglected the basic principles of uji/kamane system, and he was not capable of sensible genealogical analysis. （Aoki Kazuo (1973), “ Okura Kikajin-Setsu Hihan”, Manyoshu Kenkyu, vol.2, Hanawa Shobo, p.271 --Dwy (talk) 07:02, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
You seem to be a little hazy on when Nakanishi wrote what. The book you are referring to is at least the third in a line of works Nakanishi wrote discussing the theory, and he wrote it over a decade after first taking up the theory (in his article "Okura Kikajin-ron") originally proposed by Watanabe Kazuo. He is the theory's most prominent proponent, but citing him as justification for rewriting this article in a manner that implies the theory is not accepted is absurd. Neither Juzumaru nor you have cited a single source from the last 30 years that rejects the theory, but most of the sources supporting it (Keene, Miller, Levy, Vovin) are from the last 20 years.Explain this, and name at least three reputable academics who rejected this theory within the last two decades to support your explanation. So far you have only been able to cite one book by one scholar, a 40-year-old book that propounds the theory and you are misrepresenting as being critical of it? Why are you doing this? What is your motivation? Why have almost all of your article edits been to articles about geopolitical disputes between Japan and South Korea?? 182.249.240.7 (talk) 07:50, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I have to completely agree with Dwy here as he is merely making a concisely correct argument. Nakanishi did (and that is a historical fact) neglect the basic principles of Kabane. Aoki Kazuo cannot be faulted for merely voicing this very apparent fact. The way Daijiten simply dismisses the theory without providing (IMHO) sufficient justification is another argument in favour of Dwy's stand. It is for this simple reason that one cannot propose that Susumu Nakanishi's theory that Okura was born in Baekje should be presented as the majority opinion. Sonarclawz (talk) 08:13, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Which Daijiten are you talking about? The Nihon Koten Bungaku Daijiten says the theory has great explanatory power but still has problems and is not universally accepted. The Nihon Koten Bungaku Kenkyuu-shi Daijiten says the theory had its proponents and its critics, but the dispute has died down since the 1980s. Every single secondary source from the last 30 years (that has been cited here) supports the theory. It's also worth noting that Dwy apparently doesn't understand WP:PSTS. When discussing Yamanoue no Okura Nakanishi is a secondary source and the NKBKD is a tertiary source; when discussing Nakanishi Susumu (and his theory) Nakanishi is a primary source and the NKBKD is a secondary source. Additionally, Nakanishi (unlike Okura) is still alive, so by citing Nakanishi's book but changing the emphases in order to heavily imply Nakanishi said something he didn't, Dwy has effectively violated WP:BLP. 182.249.240.14 (talk) 08:50, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Okay, either I'm missing something, or something super-fishy is going on. Assuming good faith, I posted a straight response immediately above this comment. But then I started to wonder where Sonarclawz came from -- I've got all the articles in this area on my watchlist and I've never seen him edit here before. Checking his contributions I noticed the above was his first edit since May 2013, and before that he'd made five edits in June/July 2012, and all of his other 100 odd edits were in a two-week period in April 2012. How the hell did an inactive user of this level happen to return after basically two years in order to make a seemingly irrelevant comment (what does "Daijiten" refer to??) in an extremely niche area like this? 182.249.240.25 (talk) 09:59, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Just a second, IP-san. I cannot see why Dwy is not trying to imply that Nakanishi said something that he did not, for the pure sake of trying to justify that WP:BLP not just applies, but has also been violated. The dispute over the Nihon Koten Bungaku Kenkyuu-shi Daijiten may have died down after the purges conducted in 1985, and has not been heard of since the subsewuent incidents in '87, but the proposed edits are only trying to state the obvious. I am clearly referring to the Nihon Koten Bungaku Daijiten which is very justified in its approach even if it has not been accepted universally. I completely agree that Nakanishi is a secondary source, and I also understand that by virtue of this, his statements are accepted in WP as a neutral and reliable source. WP:PSTS can only apply if NKBKD is used as a secondary source in a case where Yamaoune no Okura is already being described in a primary source like the daijiten. thank you for understanding my point of view and supporting me. Sonarclawz (talk) 09:47, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I am merely responding to the RFC posted earlier. Forgive me if my knowledge of this rather complicated topic is not up to your mark. i am merely trying to assist you in finding a resolution of the topic raised. Sonarclawz (talk) 10:26, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

What purges?? The NKBKD is an encyclopedia and there is no academic dispute over it. You are trolling here, but I honestly don't blame you since the OP blatantly violated point 3 on WP:RFC: there is nothing neutral or accurate about the opening comment. This RFC should be closed and a new one opened. Actually I totally blame you for the trolling. But that's a relatively minor problem. You'll get yourself blocked for it soon. 182.249.240.33 (talk) 10:35, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
I sincerely doubt if you will find a resolution to the RFC raised if you refer to those to respond to it as trolls, and argue with them over trivialities. Sonarclawz (talk) 10:49, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Can you tell me what you think this dispute is about? None of your comments make any sense. This is why I think you are just here for a laugh and have no genuine interest in helping us resolve this dispute. 182.249.240.11 (talk) 10:54, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Please. The President of the Nara Bunka is notable enough for his thoughts to be taken seriously. And if his opinion is presented here while clearly being attributed to him - with a reliable and direct source listed - then there should be no problem at all. You see, the article is about Yamanoue no Okura, and not about Nakanishi (something that you keep forgetting when you raise WP:BLP or all things), and therefore what he writes about the poet is a reliable secondary source. You may argue that it is POV, but that is acceptable if we clearly mention that it was Nakanishi who said it. Of course, you are uncompromising as indicated by Dwy, so there is no reason why you should treat this RFC with the respect it derserves. Sonarclawz (talk) 11:10, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Japanese Wikipedia disposes of this rather lengthy debate with a single sentence: "He was said to be a member of the Kasuga clan and coming from the Awada clan, but Nakanishi has claimed he came from Baekje." This is all that needs to be said about his origin. Trying to use Wikipedia to fight out an academic debate, by including irrelevant details such as support from the Nara Bunka, is a total waste of space. Furthermore both sides of this debate are unnecessarily combative when all that is needed is a single sentence. Shii (tock) 16:30, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Shii. It's pretty obvious that no one knows where he's from, so you might as well just state that it's unknown and provide a concise summary of the various theories, and that is all. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 18:54, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
I am quite happy with the "single sentence" presented by Shii. --Dwy (talk) 22:56, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Well, a single sentence doesn't deserve its own section, but do whatever works. It's better to have more rather than less information. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 23:08, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
I like the idea of ending this dispute right now, and Shii's proposal is adequate, but using Japanese Wikipedia instead of the 22 other encyclopedias (including two specialist reference works that discuss the theory in detail) as our model is problematic, especially when virtually all the worthwhile research on Okura throughout the 1960s to 1980s was on this issue. I also think we should still mention "literary scholars such as Susumu Nakanishi" and "historians such as Kazuo Aoki". And Shii: look at the history: there is not equal blame to go around here. 182.249.240.11 (talk) 02:33, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
For the sake of compromise, would you be willing to accept a single sentence that says "He is said to come from X, a theory which has some modern support, although literary scholar Susumu Nakanishi has proposed he is actually from Baekje"? It doesn't have to imply that Nakanishi was alone in his theory. Shii (tock) 04:15, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
"literary scholar Susumu Nakanishi" → "literary scholars such as Susumu Nakanishi". We also can't use Nakanishi as (the only) source; I suggest going back to my original source, Keene, whose book is in English and is widely available, and also covers the theory and its history in detail. 182.249.240.36 (talk) 08:12, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Correction: Keene fails WP:V on the Awata clan point as, like most books written by literary scholars, it doesn't mention the Awata clan. We should use both Keene and Sekai Dai-Hyakkajiten (the only reliable source that refers to this as the 通説; I'll verify its date and author later this week). The main reason I'm opposed to relying on Nakanishi 1976 is that it probably fails V for other scholars supporting the the theory, and using a very old Japanese book that's impossible for most of our readers (all non-Japanese speakers and most Japanese speakers who don't live here) to access, when better sources are available, is a violation of WP:NONENG. 182.249.240.19 (talk) 08:48, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
The point is that Nakanishi invented the theory and other scholars referenced him. It wasn't a matter of independent proposals. Shii (tock) 15:34, 10 February 2014 (UTC)
Another reason I prefer Keene is that he correctly identifies Kazuo Watanabe as the founder of the theory, and Nakanishi as its most important proponent. Nakanishi didn't invent the theory. Also, if like Juzumaru and Dwy one takes the theory as having been rejected by historical consensusover the last 30 years, then Vovin 2012 could be considered an independent proponent who, after 30 years of silence, claimed "Okura's poems use Baekje loan words, therefore Okura was probably from Baekje". Note that I don't actually believe this to be independent: he states that the Nakanishi theory (as he calls it) is the established consensus. I'm not saying we have to include any of this in the article, just to say that while Nakanishi is the most prominent proponent, he's not the originator, nor even the only one who has presented evidence. Note also that we can't simply take your wording but replace "literary scholar Susumu Nakanishi" → "literary scholars" since with neither evidence nor specific notable scholarly the impression given the reader would be that this is an arbitrary theory rejected by most historians. 182.249.240.16 (talk) 01:59, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Also, it's not an RS, but matsuiism's blog quotes Kousei Man'you-ron (a book I don't currently have access) as saying 《憶良渡来人説は、早く土屋文明氏や井村哲夫 氏らによって提起されていたが、渡部和雄氏の 『憶良の前半生』（『解釈と観賞』昭和四四年 二月）によって改めて主張された。》 And Levy 2010 (perhaps accidentally) identifies Nakanishi 1976 as the original source for the theory. We could break down all of these "originator theories" and try to figure out which one is correct (my money's still on Keene's attribution to Watanabe 1963, and he appears to be following Aoki) and say "literay scholar X has proposed ...", or we could cite Nakanishi who is universally recognized as its most important proponent. 182.249.240.36 (talk) 02:16, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Also, Shii, can I ask where you got the idea that Nakanishi invented the theory? Could it be Dwy's incredibly inaccurate and biased opening comment in this RFC (in direct violation of point #3 in WP:RFC)? Of course it's not your responsibility to read the thousands of words in both English and Japanese on WP:ANI, ja:利用者-会話:Juzumaru, User talk:Ross Hill here and on WT:JAPAN, but we could have avoided misunderstandings like this (and Sonarclawz's one that was so far out it led me to believe he was trolling) if Dwy hadn't been so incredibly inaccurate and non-neutral in his opening comment. 182.249.240.2 (talk) 02:37, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Wow, how wrong of me to actually believe that this was nearing its end! We had almost reached consensus until you decided that it wasn't good enough. If you can't just reword the section appropriately, then I'll write it. I'm not supporting Dwy or Juzumaru in this edit war, but you've instigated this at least as much as they have. Your walls of text have more than gotten your views across. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 03:30, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
What are you talking about? Shii and I were having a friendly discussion about whether we should say "literary scholar Susumu Nakanishi" or "literary scholars such as Susumu Nakanishi". Shii seems to have got the wrong idea that Nakanishi originated the theory, but in light of the fact that he didn't, Shii's proposed wording is inappropriate. There is no edit war. 182.249.240.2 (talk) 04:10, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
For one, you could just simply mention both him and the originator, or any other scholars that remotely support the theory if it needs to be so obvious that it's widely held. His proposal was just a basic idea of what the section should say; it wasn't meant to be taken literally. You don't need his permission to reword what he said. Just rewrite the section and be done with it. The edit war between you and Dwy and Juzumaru has stopped for now, yes, but arguing any further is just a continuation of it. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 04:48, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but it looks to me more like the meat of the proposal is a comprise in which I get to name one scholar who believes the Baekje origin theory but I don't get to imply that it's the consensus among all scholars and am limited to naming only one. Otherwise the proposal does not differ in any way from my original edit, and why on earth would you expect Dwy to accept that? I may of course be misinterpreting the proposal, though, which is why I'd rather wait for Shii to respond now that I've informed him of the correct origins of the theory, than continue arguing with you over what Shii actually meant. "Several literary scholars including Watanabe, Nakanishi, Keene, Levy..." is substantially the same as "Several literary scholars including Nakanishi...", anyway. 182.249.240.17 (talk) 05:15, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
I do not really care whether "Nakanishi" or "several literary scholars", but let me point out several things. First, as Cckerberos pointed out above, Keene just discussed the theory in his book, but did not really endorse it himself. Levy said that his mentor's theory had a great impact in choosing his career as a non-Japanese writer writing in Japanese, but can this be said to be an endorsement by an expert in the relevant field? I doubt it. In Vovin's case, he just cited Nakanishi to support his borrow word theory, not the other way around. He just mentioned Nakanishi's theory but didn't discuss it in any detail. Watanabe did propose his own theory, but it does not seem to have much followers, and I doubt if he is worth mentioning here. And another thing about Watanabe is that Nakanishi reviewed Watanabe's theory in great detail in "Yamanoue no Okura" and clearly stated that his theory was established independently and on different logics from Watanabe's. It is apparent that 82.249.240.xxx is discussing Nakanishi's theory without actually reading his work and understanding what he said, which annoys me a lot.
Having said all that, I do not mind these things as long as "He was said to be a member of the Kasuga clan and coming from the Awada clan" comes first.--Dwy (talk) 16:47, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

"several literary scholars"

Not "several". I have cited two works (Keene and Vovin) that give this as the consensus view, and not a si ngle literary scholar has been found who rejects the theory. Keene just discussed the theory in his book, but did not really endorse it himself Dwy has clearly not read the book. He says that one of the main reasons Okura's reputatation has impro ved in the twentieth century is the fact that he was born outside Japan. This claim doesn't make any se nse unless we take Keene himself as accepting the theory. Levy said that his mentor's theory had a great impact in choosing his career as a non-Japanese writer writing in Japanese, but can this be said to be an endorsement by an expert in the relevant field? I doub t it. Neither has Dwy watched the YouTube video, it seemed. He was not discussing these two in association with each other. The reason he took up writing in Japanese was that an entire separate mentor figure (K?b? Abe) said he should. In a different part of the speech he discussed the Okura theory and said that Okura was probably neither?Chinese nor?Japanese. Levy wrote his doctoral dissertation on one of Oku ra's Man'y? colleagues Hitomaro, and was the most recent translator of the Man'y?sh? (including Okura's poems) into English. He is an expert in the field, and said in a lecture Okura was probably neither Chin ese nor Japanese. In Vovin's case, he just cited Nakanishi to support his borrow word theory, not the other way around.? He just mentioned Nakanishi's theory but didn't discuss it in any detail. Vovin is yet another source that treats the Baekje origin theory as the establishment view and the Awata clan theory as a fringe view. His loanword theory doesn't make sense unless Okura had some connectio n to Baekje. It is apparent that 82.249.240.xxx is discussing Nakanishi's theory without actually reading his work an d understanding what he said, which annoys me a lot. Sorry, but if two scholars independently come to the same conclusion based on separate data (and Naka nishi was not "independent" from Watanabe, as he had already read his work) then we can't say the latt er of the two was the only scholar who came to this conclusion. You are the one who has apparently re ad neither "Okura Kikajin-ron" nor "Okura Toraijin-ron"; you only read the third work as an excuse t o rewrite this article in a manner that implies Nakanishi rejected his own theory. And again: Keene (wh o does support the theory) attributes the theory first to Watanabe. Please don't criticize me for not rea ding sources you are not citing to support your claims, when you are the one making claims about my sources without having bothered to read them. 182.249.240.40 (talk) 03:56, 12 February 2014 (UTC)

This is once again getting too personal, but it appears that in any case a compromise has been reached, if I read the tit-for-tat charitably. Shii (tock) 07:33, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
Shii's proposal is appropriate. --Juzumaru (talk) 04:20, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

Dispute over

The problem involving Okura's origins has been resolved. Thank you Sturmgewehr88 and Shii for your intervention. I've introduced auto-archiving on this talk page. No need to clutter up this page with a book-length argument (a lot of which was not in English) going forward. Cheers. 182.249.50.76 (talk) 03:56, 15 February 2014 (UTC) (Hjr88)

I specifically point out mistakes of historical knowledge. Please do not hide 182.249.240.xxx's writing in a hurry. --Juzumaru (talk) 04:35, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
The Shinsen Shojiroku lists several clans of continental (Kudara, Koukuri) origin that had the title Ason. Please stop trying to continue this dispute beyond this point, and please stop altering earlier discussions in order to distort the context. 182.249.240.30 (talk) 05:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
All right. I will not update the edit. However, 182.249.240.xxx's war until the end[38], Don't hide this page until the end of 182.249.240.xxx's war. --Juzumaru (talk) 11:24, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
There is no "war". Please refrain from using hostile language such as this. Your behaviour is an entirely separate matter, and should not be discussed on this page. If you continue your previous pattern of disruptive behaviour, though, I will report you on ANI. (ヒント：韓国に関する投稿はしばらくご遠慮になって、本当の「日本史」への関心を私たちに見せてください。) 182.249.58.75 (talk) 11:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
OK. please do not hide the conversation on this page. And the talk page here [39] is calling 182.249.58.xxx. About Yamanoue-no-Okura. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Juzumaru (talk • contribs) 15:38, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome Hijiri88さん. And Juzumaru, don't worry; the argument will be archived. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 16:49, 15 February 2014 (UTC)

"descended from Emperor Kosho" or "a member of the Awata clan"

@User:Dwy Regarding this edit: as far as I can see, the Shinsen Shojiroku says that the Yamanoues had common ancestry (同祖) with the Ookasuga/Awata clans, and it states under Ookasuga clan entry that this ancestor was Emperor Kosho. The Nakanishi source I added does not mention Ookasuga or Awata, though. I didn't think my edit would be controversial, because I was only tweaking the wording to say basically the same thing, but to match what is in reliable source rather than User:Shii's translation from a poorly composed sentence on Japanese Wikipedia. Additionally, "descended from Emperor Kosho" is actually the wording User:Juzumaru originally added; he can clearly agree to it, so I figured you would too. 182.249.53.159 (talk) 08:51, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you Hijiri88, and I almost reverted Dwy's edit, but a discussion first would be better. And Dwy, I thought you agreed with Juzumaru on this point? ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 20:23, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
The core of the current consensus is to include only the essential and exclude all the unnecessary details. We agreed that the "Kasuga/Awata clan" is the essential and "descendant of Emperor Kosho" an unnecessary detail. I may agree to the inclusion of "descendant of Emperor Kosho" if properly worded, but I don't think I will ever agree to the exclusion of "Kasuga/Awata clan" because (in my opinion) it is not only what was recorded in Shinsen Shojiroku, but also the consensus view among modern scholars including Nakanishi.
As for Juzumaru's wording, I don't agree that Yamnoue clan actually "is descended from Emperor Kosho." It is a legend rather than a fact. Tradition has it that he was, but he was most likely not actually. It is something like we agree that Julius Caesar was said to have descended from Venus, but nobody believe it as a fact. --Dwy (talk) 22:50, 19 February 2014 (UTC)
Dwy, it's difficult to understand what you mean by "legend" and "tradition". When you first got involved you were referring to the Shinsen Shoujiroku as a "contemporary official record", but now it is a "legend"? The fact is that our sources all simply say common ancestry with those two clans (and with Kakinomoto no Hitomaro) through a son of Emperor Kosho. Using vague, imprecise wording and referring to topics we don't have Wikipedia articles on (the Awata clan at least seems unlikely to ever get one) is not very helpful to readers, when we could just link them to the Wikipedia article on the emperor considered to be the common ancestor of these clans. How about something like "He was considered a descendant of Emperor Kosho (also the ancestor of the Awata and Kasuga clans, as well as Kakinomoto no Hitomaro), but literary..."? 182.249.240.31 (talk) 03:49, 20 February 2014 (UTC)
And again, your opinions and what you consider to be "legends" and "facts" don't matter here. Neither do mine. All that matters is what published scholars think. 182.249.240.5 (talk) 03:52, 20 February 2014 (UTC)

It's been like 31 hours. Dwy has made two edits, three hours apart, on two other articles, but has not responded here. I'll give him a bit more time, but a couple of points should probably be noted here.

I think it's worth examining what Dwy said on this issue in the past. Since he has all along been saying that we should use the Shinsen Shojiroku as our principal source, we must first examine what this ancient text actually says.

Figure 1: Shojiroku and other relevant extracts

Here's what the Shinsen Shojiroku says about the Yamanoue clan's imperial ancestry (and the imperial ancestry of the more famous Man'yo poet who we could improve this article by wikilinking to):

Yamanoue and related clans as covered in "the only primary historical text that deals directly with the origins of the Yamanoue clan"
# Location Category Clan name Title Common ancestry notes Founder Notes Page (in Saeki 1962?)
87 Sakyo District Imperial descent Ookasuga Asomi Descended from Emperor Kosho's son Amatarashihikokunioshihito-no-mikoto 165
152 Ukyo District Imperial descent Kurita (This is possibly/probably a misprint of "Awata". The kanji 粟 and 栗 look rather similar. I included the "Awata" clan below for good measure, even though the connection to Okura seems tenuous.) Asomi Common ancestry with the Ookasuga clan Descended from Amatarashihikokunioshihito-no-mikoto Per the Nihon Shoki 178
153 Ukyo District Imperial descent Yamanoue Asomi As above Per the Nihon Shoki 178
187 Yamashiro Province Imperial descent Awata Asomi Descended from Amatarashihikokunioshihito-no-mikoto's grandon Hikokunibuku-no-mikoto 185
221 Yamato Province Imperial descent Kakinomoto Asomi Common ancestry with the Ookasuga clan Descended from Amatarashihikokunioshihito-no-mikoto 191

(Bold text means the comment is mine.)

(As an aside, the Kojiki backs up that Emperor Kosho's son Amatarashihikokunioshihito-no-mikoto was the ancestor of the Kasuga, Awata, Kakinotomoto and several other clans, though not the Yamanoue. The Nihon Shoki just says "Wani and others".)

(As another aside, the Hitomaro connection is made by Ito Haku 1983, probably the second most learned and relevant source cited in my month-long dispute with Juzumaru.)

Figure 2: Dwy quotes relating to the Shojiroku and Okura's imperial ancestry

Now let's see what Dwy thinks of the Shinsen Shojiroku:

  • Shinsen Shojiroku, an official genealogical record compiled by the order of Emperor Saga some 80 years after Okura's death, registered Yamanoue clan as branched out of the Japanese Imperial family. This is a fact that all scholars agree."(16:00, 2 February 2014)
  • Okura being a descendant of the Divinity is NOT a fact. A contemporary official record having registered his clan as a branch of the Japanese Imperial family IS.(11:10, 3 February 2014)
  • Shinsen Shojiroku is the only primary historical text that directly records the origins of the Yamanoue clan, and no sensible scholar would disregard this fact in forming an argument. That Shinsen Shojiroku gives the Yamanoue clan as being related to the Ookasuga clan and being descended from Amatarashihikokunioshihito-no-mikoto is a fact that all sensible scholars recognize, and even if we are going to cite the toraijin theory, the first and most important thing for us to recognize is this fact. It is my opinion that, even on Wikipedia, we should start by citing Shinsen Shojiroku, and only discuss the toraijin theory and its counter-arguments below.(16:12, 5 February 2014)
  • Little is known about the genealogical origins of Okura, the only extant record being Shinsen Shojiroku, which classified Yamanoue clan as "Kobetsu"(皇別), families having branched out from the Japanese imperial family, noting that the clan shares the same genealogical line with Okasuga (大春日) clan and descended from Amatarashihikokunioshihito no mikoto.(09:11, 6 February 2014)
  • I started the passage by referring to "Shinsen Shojiroku" because that was exactly what Nakanishi did when he began the chapter in his book on the genealogy of Okura's family.(16:45, 7 February 2014)
  • (Note that here Dwy claims that the reason he started the passage by referring to the Shinsen Shojiroku is that Nakanishi did, despite his previously having stated that we should be doing so, before ever having read Nakanishi's book.)
  • And there is apparently some misunderstanding about "Shinsen Shojiroku." No sensible scholars seriously argue that Okura was descended from some legendary prince who we do not believe even existed. It is mentioned only because it is the only extant primary source directly covering the subject.(08:04, 8 February 2014)
  • Aha! You've been thinking that I was trying to use Shinsen Shojiroku without reference to modern scholars. If that is your objection, I will go ahead to edit the article attributing every statement to modern scholar's[sic] work.(12:28, 8 February 2014)
  • Little is known about the genealogical origins of Okura, the only extant record being a brief description in Shinsen Shojiroku, which listed Yamanoue clan as "Kobetsu" (皇別), families having branched out from the Japanese imperial family, noting that the clan shares the same genealogical line with Okasuga (大春日) clan and descended from Amatarashihikokunioshihito no mikoto. (12:30, 8 February 2014)
  • Most scholars doubt that Emperor Kosho actually existed and nobody claims that Okura was a descendant of the imperial family now. (22:55, 18 February 2014)
  • I may agree to the inclusion of "descendant of Emperor Kosho" if properly worded, but I don't think I will ever agree to the exclusion of "Kasuga/Awata clan" because (in my opinion) it is not only what was recorded in Shinsen Shojiroku, but also the consensus view among modern scholars including Nakanishi. As for Juzumaru's wording, I don't agree that Yamnoue clan actually "is descended from Emperor Kosho." It is a legend rather than a fact. Tradition has it that he was, but he was most likely not actually. It is something like we agree that Julius Caesar was said to have descended from Venus, but nobody believe it as a fact. (22:50, 19 February 2014)

Note that before editing this article Dwy posted eight times on WT:JAPAN, and in seven of these eight posts he mentioned the Shinsen Shojiroku, numerous times claiming that "the Shinsen Shojiroku records Yamanoue as having been of imperial descent -- this is a FACT". Nowhere in any of his posts there did he claim Okura was "said to be a member of the Kasuga clan and coming from the Awata clan". This somewhat clumsy wording comes from User:Shii's translation of Japanese Wikipedia.[40] This wording makes very little sense internally, and is completely useless to readers of Wikipedia as long as we don't have articles on either of these clans. However, the traditional story that Okura's clan (the Yamanoue clan) was RELATED to the Awata and Kasuga (Ookasuga) clans (and the Kakinomoto clan) is THE SAME as the traditional story that all of these clans were descended from Amatarashihikokunioshihito-no-mikoto, the son of Emperor Kosho. The difference is that if we just say "descended from Emperor Kosho" we avoid messy wording, avoid variant names of clans that don't have articles (Ookasuga vs. Kasuga), and link our readers directly to the relevant Wikipedia article. Why does Dwy oppose this? Is it just that he thinks linking to an article that states the historical consensus that this common ancestor was a legend, will cause readers to think the toraijin theory must be correct? This may or may not be the case, but it seems to me like we should be giving our readers the relevant information in a concise manner, backed up by reliable sources (read: not Japanese Wikipedia), and not clutter up the article with obscure discussions of ancient Japanese clan names that may or may not have some relation to the subject. Saying "common ancestry with X, Y and Z clans " works, but then we are forcing the reader to look elsewhere to find out who this common ancestor was.

182.249.240.39 (talk) 11:11, 21 February 2014 (UTC)

Whether something is worth mentioning in an article is not to be judged by the existence of an Wikipedia article. We have different set of policies and guidelines like WP:V, WP:DUE, WP:NOT, etc. And I do believe that the ancient Japanese clan names are much more relevant than the obscure discussion of a mythical emperor who we do not really believe even existed.--Dwy (talk) 15:45, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Come on, that's silly. "Descended from an emperor" is immediately understandable as a statement, whereas these clans are much more obscure. Shii (tock) 15:48, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Legend or not, it still has been said that he was a descendent of the emperor. These are all just theories, but they should all be included. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 16:17, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
If you add "he is said to have descended from emperor Kosho," we will have to state who said that (i.e., Shinsen Shojiroku). This is necessary to ensure the readers to correctly understand that it is something recorded in an ancient document, but not a historical fact verified by the modern scholars. Then, if we have to present the Toraijin theory, we will also have to add the modern historians' opinions, just to be NPOV. But all this will make us go away from the current consensus that a single sentence is just enough. If you are areally suggesting we add more information, I will have to come back to my original proposal[41] (not as a goal, but a starting point, to which additions and revisions are to be made.) --Dwy (talk) 18:06, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
There is no need to lengthen the sentence, just change "He was said to be a member of the Kasuga clan and coming from the Awata clan" to "He was said to be descended from Emperor Kosho". Shii (tock) 18:12, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
That would make the sentence vague, imprecise, and misleading, as well as POV. And there are no policies or guidelines prohibiting the inclusion of information based on reliable secondary sources. We are actually encouraged to add information.--Dwy (talk) 19:02, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Vague? Naming a possible ancestor is not vague. These clans that have been extinct for a thousand years are vague, since no one knows anything about them other than that they are descended from this emperor as well. And what "POV" are you talking about? Just because it's a legend doesn't mean it shouldn't be mentioned. WP:Drop the stick Dwy. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 20:04, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Also, as shown in Hijiri88's collection of your quotes referring to Shinsen Shojiroku, you explicitly stated that it is a FACT that Okura was a descendent of the imperial family, specifically a son of Emperor Kosho. Now that we've agreed to this, you've taken the complete opposite stance just to spite us. You obviously contradict yourself from what you originally said. At this point you're just trolling. ミーラー強斗武 (talk) 20:14, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Agreed that Dwy is being unreasonable here. We need appropriate description for an English-speaking audience. Shii (tock) 23:49, 21 February 2014 (UTC)
Note that Dwy has here done exactly what I predicted he would do. Neither he nor Juzumaru are HERE to improve the article, but rather to get as close to their preferred wording (Okura was not born in South Korea, despite what Korean ultranationalists on English Wikipedia have claimed.) as possible. Note that, as I already told them, I actually agree with them that Okura was not born in South Kore and that Korean ultranationalists have posted problematic material on English Wikipedia articles; this does not mean we should let this affect how we write the article. In pursuing this goal Dwy has deliberately misrepresented a respected scholar's views in the article, and now is fighting a battle he has obviously already lost, in order to keep direct reference to the legendary emperor Kosho-tenno. It's not difficult to see why he is so keen on not mentioning any concrete specifics: he wants to use vague wording so readers will come away with the conclusion that the imperial ancestry hypothesis is not just based on unintuitive readings of ancient myths and genealogies. His next step will surely be to post another RFC and claim in his OP that Shii, Sturmgewehr and I are "violating previously established consensus". (I'm not violating AGF here. Dwy did exactly this two weeks ago.) 182.249.240.43 (talk) 02:42, 22 February 2014 (UTC)
I feel sick being called "silly", "unreasonable" and "deliberately misrepresenting a source," but I will not say much in reply here. Personal attack will not lead us anywhere and everyone can clearly see how nobly and gracefully Nakanishi acknowledged (but not agreed to) historians' objections to his theory if they just take a look at page 45 of his book "Yamanoue no Okura."
Now that 182.249.240.*** has started adding not too important trivia in the article, it is apparent that we are not in agreement as to adhering to the "single sentence." I already pointed out above that we should add some information to the current version of 182.249.240.***'s. I will take the liberty of mading the revision.--Dwy (talk) 16:13, 23 February 2014 (UTC)
Where is the trivia? I do not see it. Shii (tock) 17:38, 23 February 2014 (UTC)

About rewriting of Three Kingdoms of Korea

Hijiri88（182.249.240.xxx）rewrote "Baekje, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea" to "the Korean kingdom of Baekje ". [42] "Baekje, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea" is the historically correct term.　but, he claims in this way.

Linking to an article on Korean history seems irrelevant, but we need to mention Korea for geographical context because 99.999% of English Wikipedia readers don't know what Baekje is.

"Baekje, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea" is used in many articles in Wikipedia.[43]
"99.999% of English Wikipedia readers don't know what Baekje is." is also your personal opinion, isn't it? If you can not prove 99.999%, Back to the historically correct term("Baekje, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea"). --Juzumaru (talk) 10:26, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

(Edit conflict: See my comment in the section above.) "Baekje, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea" is unnecessary here. Just leave it out. And yes, that is my opinion. It's my opinion that was formed by growing up in an English-speaking country and interacting with thousands of English-speakers. I would estimate that less than 1% of them have ever heard of Baekje. In this context, though, all we need is the word "Korea" to give geographical context. Juzumaruさんの英語のレベルがウィキペディアの基準を満たしていないのはUser:Ross Hillをはじめ何人かが認めています。英語のニュアンスですが、「Korea＝韓国」ということはありませんよ。これは英語が足りないJuzumaruさんの勝手の思い込みです。User:Shiiも私も韓国人でもないし韓国の政治的な別目的（＝下心）を持っているわけでもありません。 If you continue your harassment of me I will report you on ANI again and this time you won't get off the hook by lying and pretending to move to Japanese Wikipedia. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 10:39, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
I agree, it is unclear why we need to explain about the Three Kingdoms here. Shii (tock) 15:18, 24 February 2014 (UTC)
According to Nakanishi, Yamanoue's father was exile in Japan by the wars of the three kingdoms. the war of the Three Kingdoms and the destruction of the motherland, had a strong influence on his poetry. Therefore I recommend this term.（山上憶良の作風は韓国の三韓時代や百済の滅亡の影響を受けているというのは中西先生の主張なのですが？）--Juzumaru (talk) 22:11, 25 February 2014 (UTC)
I'm sorry, but can you cite a source that specifically says this? As far as I recall Nakanishi's claim is that Okura and his father left Baekje for Japan when Okura was still an infant. How could these specific political circumstances in a country he didn't know have affected his poetry? I know they say that the destruction of his original homeland of Baekje had an influence on his poetry, but that's not a valid reason to include a wikilink to the article on the Three Kingdoms. Additionally "Nakanishi said so" was not the reason you originally gave ("historical accuracy"), nor have you seen it as a valid reason for anything else I've written over the past two months. Could you please tell us your actual motivation for wanting to change "Korean kingdom of Baekje" to "Baekje, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea"? Do you still actually think that myself and User:Shii are attempting to say "Okura was born in Baekje, which is South Korean"? Because that is not how I read the current sentence, it's not how Shii reads the current sentence, and it's not how any native speaker of English would read the sentence. すみませんが、Juzumaruさんの本当の目的を教えていただけますか？前回は「『Korean kingdom of Baekje』という表現は正確な史実ではない」という理由だと述べましたが、今は「中西氏によると三韓時代は憶良の作風に影響を与えた」と述べるようになったようです。しかし、あなたは２ヶ月前から「中西氏は歴史がわからない人だから彼の論文を参考にするべきではない」とばかり述べていましたよね？これらによって、Juzumaruさんが「正確な史実」やら「作風に影響を」やら言いながら、「朝鮮半島にあった王国の百済」を「三韓時代の三韓のうち一韓の百済」に書き変えようとしている本当の理由はまた別だと考えられます。この英語がまず変で読みづらいというのを別にして、本当の理由を教えてもらうまでは残念ながら記事を書き変えさせるわけにはいきません。 Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:48, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
(Sorry for being bad at English.) I think that you should just quote a proposal of Nakanishi. You do not read the writings of Nakanishi. Therefore, you do not understand my intention.
I do not have time, therefore it explains the question about me in Japanese. （please read here [44]）. 歴史用語のニュアンスですが、「Korean Kingdom ＝ Unified Silla」ということなりますよ。--Juzumaru (talk) 11:11, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I read Okura Toraijin-ron. This was the one that was in my local library. Which one do you want me to read? そして、あなたの英語が間違っているんですよ。Korean KingdomじゃなくてKorean kingdom of Baekje（つまり、朝鮮半島に位置する百済という王国）です。英語を母国語とする私に「歴史用語のニュアンスですが」など言わないでください。もう英語版ウィキペディアをご退去ください。２ヶ月前に約束したとおりに。約束を守らなかったら再びとANIに。 Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 15:44, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
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