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Unfortunately Wikipedia is beginning to become more and more polarized - with adminstrators editing and weilding power with subjectivity and playing to racial sympathies. It's no use merely editing and showing sources for reasons to edit - check this page's contribution history. Mel Etitis just keeps reverting and has even got blocked for doing so.
In our discussions about changes to this page he has contantly been rude, dismissive and arrogant and has also made accusations towards me, namely that I am supposedly some anon that has accused him of being racist. I don't need to go anon to do that. After my long discussions with him over the dispute of this page, I accuse him openly. His last abusive statement that my English is lacking was completely uncalled for and will not be tolerated by me. I will be making the necessary complaints - our discussions are in the open and for everyone to read. It is suffice to say I am not alone in my views of this person.
It is a pity, beacuse we should show respect to people of his age and they should at least have amassed some wisdom to show for all their years on this planet. But I guess there always will be exceptions.
Wikipedia is coming a place where the public no longer edit, resembling some mythos of Greek admin Gods on a high Mount Olympus, who come down now and again and allow us few mortals to chip away at their point of view.
Wikipedia isn't here to re-write history.
I want to write this explanation to go with this page in the hope that if interested people come to read this page, they can get the fullest facts.
Firstly, please note that there are no sources or citations on this page. Why? Because Mel Etitis has no need for them. He has put his point of view across and won't listen to anyone who shows authority to the opposite. He can just dismiss it as irrelevant and continue to revert.
Secondly, although ALL Zeybek dance forms (be they Greek or Turkish) have a common UNIFYING charateristic form - so that whether you are in the Turkish or Greek Aegean you can immediately recognise it, Mel Etitis refuses to accept this. He promotes that the Greek Zeybek merely originates (in a very far and distant way) to the Turkish folk dance. For this reason (after someone called him up on just removing Turkish music samples of the Zeybek dance from this page) he then decided to open a new and separate page for the information found on the Internet for the Turkish Zeybek dance - merely to perpetuate his own (completely imagined) view that these are in fact two separate dances.
They are not. As with many other articles where Turkish and Greek cultures conjoin - namely folk instruments such as the baglama, food such as lokum and baklava and other folk dances such as the ciftetelli, one wonders why Mel Etitis seems so adamant on seaparating these two dances - especially when I have continously asked him to provide independent sources - and he has constantly failed to do so.
If one looks at the history of the Greek Zeybek - there are racial and nationalistic sensitivities ar play. Hellenes have for years after they gained their independence from the Ottoman Empire, tried to erase the word Turkish and Ottoman influences from their culture. While the rest of teh Balkans calls the coffee they drink Turkish, Greeks decided to coin a new term. They've done the same for kebabs, too. This is just another show of that feeling.
With that mentality then, I can open an article on some mythical subject and argue that no one may change it as now the onus is on them to bring verifiable sources before any amendment can take place.
And then (as is in the power of the Gods) when this information is pooled together - it is just dismissed as irrelevant.
Finally when you object, as is your right, you are dismissed from the mountain and communication is cut.
Administrators should not only be fair, independent and objective but promote open dialogue, too. Mel Etitis fails on all areas in my book. Deff6 00:59, 5 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In my discussion with Mel Etitis, he has already explained that he cannot substantiate his own personal belief that the two dances are so separate from each other that they require separate articles.
He then challenged me that the ONUS of proving that his personal opinion was wrong by proving it.
I am providing articles where he could not.
It is only a review but it traces the history and developement of Remebitika and the Greek Zeybek dance and it does not back YOUR OPINION that they are so distinct as to be two separate dances (and so as to require two different pages).
Note: Always when the dance is commented in English it is called the Greek Zeybek - against your OWN PERSONAL argument that two different names point to two different dances.
Note: In 1922, following the failure of Greek territorial exploits in Turkey, there began a mass exodus of refugees from Asia Minor to the Greek mainland culminating in the burning of the port of Smyrna by Turkish troops. This displacement of one million people, Greek in name but entirely Turkish in existence, had a dramatic effect on Greece both economic and cultural.
Note: Musician who labels the greek Zeybek dance as merely a Greek derivation of the Turkish Eagle Dance from the Aegean Coast of Asia Minor.
I do want to assume good faith but the only reason I can see for this user not to like to see an example of Turkish zeybek music and information of the original dance on this page is because he is editing with a personal point of view favourable to a certain group of people.
Most of the material to which you link is uncontroversial but also irrelevant.
The first link refers to the relationship between the rembetes and the Zeybeks, but what it says about the dance is: "The zembekiko (9/8) rhythm forms the basis of the male solo dance of the rebetes, and originates in Anatolian folk music." That the dance originates in Anatolian folk music isn't in dispute, and is clearly stated in this article.
All that Cline says is: "ZEYBEK - Fashioned on the Greek derivation of the Turkish Eagle Dance from the Aegean Coast of Asia Minor"; you've added the "merely". Moreover, he's describing one of his compositions that he's called "zeybek" — he's not defining the form. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 09:11, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Mel you can't read and you're a lier how you are an admin I din't know but it doesn't bode well for Wikipedia if there ar epeople like you about. I only hope (from reading all th eother discussions) that eventually everyone's negative energy towards you will cosmically emerge and remove you as soon as possible. That youth thing you brag about, is that mental too?
The sources ARE NOT IRRELEVANT - they all treat the ZEYBEK as ONE DANCE with two variations. So it disproves your point. Deff6 23:28, 1 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
dont read anything below this, it's all bullshit. The Greek Zeibekiko is in 9/4, although that is a bit misleading, because it is metrically subdivided as either 5/4 or 4/5. The 9/8 beat however is not subdivided in this manner (instead it is subdided most often as 6/3). it is a unique time signature, and cannot be danced to in the same way unless you wanted to appear to be uncontrollably hysterical, while possibly tripping over yourself, breaking a leg, and breaking your face on the floor. rebetiko is an anti-nationalistic phenomenon, anyone who wants to bring politics into this is firstly an absolute fuckwit, and secondly tarnishing a great art form. So shut up, enjoy the music, and be friendly.
Zeimbekiko is 9/4! Aptaliko which is a faster type of zeimbekiko is 9/8.
I present the rhythm with hand drum notation ; D-t---t-D---t---D-t---t-D---t---t--- .Each symbol in this case is a sixteenth therefore we have 36/16 which is 9/4!
Aptaliko is D-ttD-t-D-ttD-t-t- and is obviously played twice the speed of zeimbekiko and stressed a little differently. Aptaliko is 18/16 which is 9/8.--Zito ta xania 23:42, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I've always known zeimbekiko to be mainly 9/8, with occasional variants in 9/4. My understanding is backed up by this article from Musical Traditions No 3, Summer 1984, as well as by these: [1], [2].
Drum notation doesn't really help much; I have a few books of the music, and zeimbekikos are almost always in 9/8 (which is why I've always played them in that time). --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 10:53, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
As I told you it is a common mistake for zeimbekiko to be regarded as 9/8 and the articles you propose fall in the same rule. This happens because zeimbekiko used to be 9/8 a lot years ago since it was played twice the speed than it is played now. If you have time download the song "Το ζεϊμπέκικο της Ευδοκίας(To zeimbekiko tis Eudokias)" written by Μάνος Λοΐζος(Manos Loizos) which is a quite common zeimbekiko and I believe you can easily find it. Try to count it! You 'll see that if we count 8ths they are too slow to be 8ths...! If it is 9/8 then the 8th lasts about a second which is quite long!--Zito ta xania 21:25, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
If modern musicians play zeimbekiko slower now, then that can be said in the article — but it would be wrong to make it look as though a recent development is the simple truth about the history of the dance. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 23:00, 12 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
a Greek improvisational solo dance. Turkish people also dance zeybek or zeibeikko. If you have a sources that this dance was found by Greek people, could, please, show it ? Cheers--TuzsuzDeliBekir 20:53, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
The article is about "zeimbekiko", not "zeybek". The former comes from the latter, quite right, but they're not the same. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:13, 31 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Ohhhh, sorry for misunderstanding Mel Etitis. I thought that they were the same dance. I am interested in furtherin info. about zeimbekiko. Do you know any link of it ? Sorry again. --TuzsuzDeliBekir 07:10, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
There's no need to apologise; the Greek dance is certainly derived from the Turkish dance, which is why it has a Greek version of the same name. I don't know of a really good link, I'm afraid. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 21:23, 1 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I get so angry when I read so much bulls*t. Just exactly what is your source to say these dances are so completely different that they require separate pages? or removal of a music sample? Tuysuzbekir how can you just take what he says as is? Can't you research for yourself? Why don't you ask him what his justification is for saying they are completely different (yet originate from each other) which is an oxymoron in itself. The attack of teh Greekipedia once again. 82.145.231.144 12:24, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't say that they were completely different; on thr contrary, they're closely connected and have many similarities. If you take the time to read what people say, you might cut down your apoplectic fits. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:50, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
IT IS TEH SAME DANCE. IT IS JUST BECAUSE GREEKS HAVE MADE IT SOME KIND OF SYMBOL OF GREEK NATIONALISM (FASLEY LIKELY REMBETIKO MUSIC) THAT THIS GUY IS PLAYING TO GREEK SENSITIVITIES AND NOT ALLOWING THE INFORMATION ON THE PAGE. Where the hell is NPOV. And this guy is an administrator? The Greeks should learn that aome of their "national" dances come from international sources. 82.145.231.36 01:11, 11 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I realise that this person isn't going to listen to or understand what I say, but I'll say it for the benefit of others who might read this.
There is no hint of Greek nationalism about this; the dance isn't "the national dance", but was part of the rembetiko sub-culture, and is now one of many popular dances (changed still further from the original).
I don't understand the reference to Rembetiko; perhaps if the anon calmed down he might be more coherent.
NPoV has nothing to do with my position; that's the anon's claim. I'm concerned with accuracy.
The article clearly states that the dance has Turkish origins, and I doubt that many Greeks are unaware of that, nor of the origins of other popular dances and music.
This anon has now been blocked at two IP addresses; if he continues to make personal attacks (like the ones that other editors removed from this page; see the History if you're interested in childish outbursts of swearing) and to vandalise my talk page, he'll be blocked at more. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:31, 12 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I’m coming late to this discussion, but I might have something useful to add. According to Νίκος Χασάπης (Ρυθμοι και Ανάπτυξη Τέχνη και Τεχνική, Αθήνα 2002) there are two kinds of zeibekiko, both in 9/4. The first one is simply called ζεϊμπέκικος (zeibekikos) and goes like this:
1/8+1/4+1/8+1/4+1/4
1/8+1/4+1/8+1/4+1/4+1/4
That creates a slightly syncopated pattern of 4/4+5/4.
The other one is called ζεϊμπέκικο παλιό (old zeibekiko, if my Greek is right) and goes like this:
1/4+1/8+1/8+1/4+1/4
1/4+1/8+1/8+1/4+1/4+1/4
This is the one mentioned in the beginning of the article.
Still I feel that many zeibekikos are in 9/8, but grouped as 3/4+3/8. A good example is Στο Τραπέζι Που τα Πίνω (music by Απόστολου Καλδάρα). You can find it on the CD Τα Ζεϊμπέκικα with Στέλιος Καζαντζιδης (please forgive me if I have misspelled any Greek words or names; I’m not Greek myself). Actually, I feel that Apocalypse in 9/8 in Supper’s Ready by Genesis is a kind of zeibekiko, though I doubt that they knew much about Greek music.
I cannot understand why a Greek would edit the page to remove additions of music samples. get out of denial and move on. We know you like to think you own Wikipedia and even though most administrators do make us feel this is Greekipedia - it is just yet. 82.145.231.219 02:49, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not Greek, as a glance at my User page would have told you.
This article is about the Greek dance; the Turkish dance from which it is derived is different. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 22:14, 8 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No this article should be about BOTH of them. Like çiftetelli is dealt with and you are mistaken that they are not the same. The sound example given is a TYPE of zeybek dance called AĞIR meaning SLOW. It is just one FORM. get it? And one look at your profiles tells me your are Greek or a sympathiser - which means the same thing. Tuzsuz Bekir what are you apologising to some sorry excuse for a grease for? 82.145.231.144 12:07, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Blocked for twenty-four hours for racial abuse (the fact that it involves a childish misattribution of race is irrelevant). I suggest striongly that, if you want to come back and edit, you change your attitude. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 17:47, 10 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Zeybek is a Turkic word, a Turkic dance, apparently Zeibekkos is different, so why does the article say Zeibekkos is danced in Turkey but danced MORE and is MORE popular in Greece. What sources are there to back this POV???
p.s Zeybeks are not an ethnic group, they're mountainess warrior rebels who fought against the Greek-invasions in WW1.
Who cares? Most of these dances are derived from Byzantine Greek origins anyway. Do we bring up the constant Turkish appropriation of Byzantine culture in this respect? No. We don't.
Correct. A funny thing is that I read somewhere that bouzouki is an instrument which descents from Turkish saz, while in reality all these Turkish instruments like saz, tambur, baglama etc. are based in the Byzantine pandoura (ancient Greek pandouris). The same happens with the dances.
You don't know what the heck are you talking about ? Saz, bağlama, kopuz these are all known in all Turkic nations. From Siberia to Turkey. Yet ancient Anatolian culture doesn't belong to Greeks. Greeks belong to Greece. Just because some of them colonized Anatolia doesn't mean Greeks are natives to Anatolia. Greeks once colonized Crimea and Eygpt, do you also fake their culture like yours ?--85.100.33.205 19:03, 28 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Can you show us some ancient Turkic art depicting this type of instrument? Didnt think so... It is quite clearly Greek and not Mongolia in origin.
lute#History and evolution of the lute, komuz, saz, baglama (not the Greek one), at least the name of bouzouki is derived from Turkish.
Please take a look at this as well: [[3]]
It is not clearly Greek, more likely Anatolian. probably dating to earlier times than Hittites.
Ancient Turks were living just to the east of Caspian Sea, Anatolia is to the west of Caspian sea (close to Caspian Sea), there is not much distance between them. Ancient Greece is even closer
deniz 15:53, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Byzantine? Are you confusing them with the Eastern Romans? Have you considered the fact that empires are multi-ethnic? Please, someone, BAN ME NOW, I personally attacked the beliefs of some 19th century mind here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.9.60.181 (talk) 19:54, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Is Blue Rondo Al A Turk by Dave Brubeck an example of this rhythmically? I'm assuming it is.
No. While Blue Rondo Al A Turk is fast and is 9/8 divided 2-2-2-3, which is also commonly used in Turkish music, the Zeibekiko is usually slower and divided in different ways rhythmically, one of them is in 9/4 divided 4/4*4/5. The very clear one-two,one-two, one-two, one-two-three feel that Brubeck's composition has is completely missing from the heavy Zeibekiko.
Does the word zeybek really refer to the form of music? Shouldn't it be something like zeybekçe?--Domitius 16:00, 18 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]
zeybekçe, as a noun, would mean language of zeybeks (it can also be used as an adverb 'zeybekçe davran' (behave like zeybek), though one would prefer 'zeybek gibi davran', which is also the literal translation of 'behave like zeybek'.)
zeybek müziği, zeybek havası mean zeybek music
zeybek dansi, zeybek oyunu mean zeybek dance
zeybek normally means a zeybek (person), but it can refer to zeybek dance for instance in the following context:
I just heard a program on the ABC (Aust) about music of the first world war. It included the music of the Zembeks. They stated that the mountainous rebel fighters were a mixture of both Turks and Greeks indigenous to the region. Interesting.60.224.36.150 13:04, 21 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Why is it named after some people (according to the link at the bottom of the page) in Asia Minor?? notbale to tell of the meaning behind the name I think. I would like to know at least... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.121.247.116 (talk) 02:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
-However, in the 21st century a certain dance etiquette has evolved, seeing men either wait until the dancing man stops and then begin dancing, or standing up so the dancer gives them his place.
This has nothing to do with the 21st century.
-seeing men either wait until the dancing man stops and then begin dancing
well that is the thing that happens in an intensely personal dance, as said before.
-or standing up so the dancer gives them his place.
and that is known as rudeness, it is not special to zeibekiko dance itself.
-Women were traditionally prohibited from dancing the Zeibekiko unless they were prostitutes
This is false. It is of course a modern cliche to think so.
It is traditional more of a men-dance but women were not prohibited from dancing. First of all on the islands it is not even a men-dance.
You confuse things with the rebetico era (but even in Rebetico culture it is not so). The Zeibekiko dance is alot older and widespread than rebetico music. It is a folk dance, it exists in greek folk music (demotika).
-The dancer is surrounded by other people, who crouch on their knees while clapping for him
That is no rule.
-Throwing plates at the dancer's feet was a practice popular until the 1970's but a practice that very rarely takes place today
That was a practice very popular i in the 1960's until the 1970's in specific establishments. And this practice was not limited on Zeibekiko dance, it was a general entertainment behaviour in these establishments.
-Throwing flowers or other items that won't injure anyone (e.g. napkins) has become more common
Again in specific establishments. This is no Zeibekiko rule.
-In Greek nightclubs, flowers are sold in trays or baskets of ten to twenty pieces and are thrown en-masse on artists, singers, dancers, and other spectators. They are also used for courtship and flirting. In practice, the bill in Greek bouzoukia, especially on the best-placed tables (centre and front), is largely based on flower consumption, and can very often exceed the cost of a brand new car
Off-topic and irrelevant.
-The Zeibekiko is commonly referred to as the dance of dances
By whom?
-requiring incredible athleticism, balance, and creativity. This creativity serves to add to the mood of the Zeibekiko, one of self-expression and kinship with the sombre lyrics to which the dance is performed
Get serious!
-The origins of this dance trace themselves back to the history of when the Greek people were slaves to the Ottoman Empire for 400+ years. There are no organized steps to this dance. As mentioned earlier, it is purely improvised. It is often referred to as the drunken dance. This is because when the Greek slaves would return home after a long day of work, they would take solace in listening to music with their fellow Greeks and drinking. While inebriated, the slaves would then dance (to forget their worries). They would be off balance and their movements would seem erratic. At times, they had trouble keeping themselves standing. Hence, the fact that there are no organized steps. Though many of today's dancers do not know the full history of the dance, they are said to be immitating the movements of the drunken Greek slaves. It is a dance in their honor.
This section also needs a rewriting, I just did not have the time.
The origins of this dance trace themselves back to the history of when the Greek people were slaves to the Ottoman Empire for 400+ years. There are no organized steps to this dance. As mentioned earlier, it is purely improvised. It is often referred to as the drunken dance. This is because when the Greek slaves would return home after a long day of work, they would take solace in listening to music with their fellow Greeks and drinking. While inebriated, the slaves would then dance (to forget their worries). They would be off balance and their movements would seem erratic. At times, they had trouble keeping themselves standing. Hence, the fact that there are no organized steps. Though many of today's dancers do not know the full history of the dance, they are said to be immitating the movements of the drunken Greek slaves. It is a dance in their honor.
this is crap and you knoe it. First of all the greek people where no slaves, they where under Ottoman rule.
Second: It is NEVER referred by ANYONE as "drunken dance"....
"This is because when the Greek slaves would return home after a long day of work, they would take solace in listening to music with their fellow Greeks and drinking" C'mon! give me a break. The whole section is garbage. We are not writing a fairy tale, we write an encyclopedia article. I am reverting. If you want to discuss it do it here. If you want to write something i the article please do. But dont give me this fairy tale crap again. Yangula (talk) 20:54, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Good job Mr. Yangula. If you are going to make personal attacks, at least spell correctly. The word is know, not "knoe" as you spelled it. Perhaps you should stop going on a personal crusade and making attacks against people. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.124.104 (talk) 23:22, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yangula, what are your credentials that you call other people's posts crap? Are you an expert in the subject matter? Do you hold a degree? Did you write a book or a publised article perhaps? Please enlighten us all as to your judgments as to what is crap. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.120.124.104 (talk) 23:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I read the research paper by Nikos Politis. He is surely known in the internet community and has a respectfull opinion. But I think that Zeibekiko is a folk dance and it was not born in the twentieth century. It may not be a folk dance in most of mainland Greece, but it is a folkdance on many of the Aegean Islands and, of course, in Asia Minor (I am not sure about Thrace but it is possible).
The dance originated from the Zeybek warriors of Asia Minor and was partly introduced in Greece after the 1923 population exchanges. What do we mean with partly here?
It has been suggested that the greek Rebetiko composer Markos Vamvakaris from the island of Syros played a role of paramount importance in shaping and popularizing this musical and dance genre.
If we mean the musical genre Rebetiko, he sure has. I wouldn't say it about the dance though. By his time (his recording began 1932) Zeibekiko was allready a popular dance. This can be seen in the Greek discography.
Now about the rythmic pattern: I don't quite understand why some people (mostly westerners) call it 9/4. The pattern is 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/16 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/16 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/8 (This is one form of many, the "classic" form). It is obviously 9/8. (by the way Nikos Politis in his paper has made some major mistakes about the rhythms) Yangula (talk) 18:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to correct whatever you consider incorrect as long as you provide sources for your edits. As far as "partly" is concerned you are probably right about its ambiguity but if you read the Politis paper you will find out that he uses a similar expression (in part) without further explanations. I am not sure whether the musical and dance genre should be treated as separate entities but again feel free to change it if you find it inprecise or misleading. You are right in pointing out that the zeibekiko was well established in Greek discogrpaphy by the time Vamvakaris came to the fore but again the importance of his contribution is not my personal opinion but the view held by Politis. If you ask me the rest of the article also needs more sources because in its present state it largely consists of OR. --Giorgos Tzimas (talk) 18:22, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I believe (but can't verify as I don't read Greek well enough) that Markos describes how, in his childhood on Syros, there were what he called "dance schools" teaching how to perform zeybekiko dances. Incidentally, you'll find that if Nikos Politis says a thing in one of his papers, he does have a reliable source for it. The Real Walrus (talk) 09:36, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Some musicians have related this rhythm to a form of zeimbekiko and the Zeybek tribes.
Kamilieriko may refer to the way the dancer holds his body to somewhat resemble the camel's hump (Kamili...)
A popular rembetika song which is in the rhythyum of Kamilieriko is "ta matoklada sou lamboun" ΤΑ ΜΑΤΟΚΛΑΔΑ ΣΟΥ ΛΑΜΠΟΥΝ by Markos Bambakaris Μάρκος Βαμβακάρης . You may find examples of this the youtube website.
Hi! I removed the reference to 2003's Hydra conference, because:
Geocities were shut down by the end of 2009 (original url was: www.geocities.com/HydraGathering/programme2003.html); I was too lazy to search the webarchives
the program is available here, but does not support it's claim.
The Zeibekiko Conference (also from geocities) is a rather poor reference. I changed it to the archived version until a better reference shows up. →Alfie±Talk 23:56, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest a merge from Zeimbekiko into this article, it is very poorly written but contains some (unsourced) useful(?) information Rchard2scout (talk) 21:17, 4 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. — Bility (talk) 22:23, 7 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
good afternoon. some expainings,The zeimpekikos comes the first part of Zeus and the second from the injectors or vekos this word meaning "bread" in Herodotus as the dictionary says,after in the years of Othomany Greeks from Thrace take this name from there Its clearly that belongs in ancient Greece where Thracians later founded a colony in Asia Minor Tralleis so Its about greek ancient world and must reference it in article zeibekiko,otherwise its vandalism of Greek history and historicals will surely report all that.
Now a second observation (for God sh..) its in article of "music of Greece" , specifficly in "laiko" wherever you research on google! ,whorever writer you ask!,there is nowhere! a similar "wrong" explaination about the laiko's genre coming .Where are you people when "somebody" vandalize with that ways the wiki?>??? why you leave some vandalists free to write all these unbased lies? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.167.53.251 (talk • contribs) 13:20, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The word Zeybek occurs first in the 13th aiona.Ellines Macedonians who migrated from Thrace to Asia Minor Frygia.I action stretches from the Dardanelles to the ancient Doris with a stronger presence in the region of Smyrna (Aydin, Bursa, Mugla, Oidemisi .. .). Thracians and Phrygians have racial, linguistic and cultural affinity.
The Zeibekiko showed characteristics of social behavior,
ethymotypias, clothing, traditions, dances and teletourgikon.Gia long lived in the mountains (as the rebels) against state violence and cruelty, claiming the law of popular taxeon.Kata guerrilla was second in the body after Efe.To dress was very attentive , extremely clean, with white skin (called the Turks, the Greeks with the silver body). Fundamental values, ethics, honesty, courage, gumption, altro yismos, besaliki, charity (something like Robin Hood of the poor). The word Zeybek still mean the Turks Leventis, lad.
The word has ellinofrygiki katagogi.Zef-Bekos ex = Zeus Zeus (symbolizing the spirit)
Vekos or Bekos by Herodotus and the bread symbolizes the body.
Whatever else are by TURKS NATIONALISTS AND FAKE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.92.242.152 (talk) 13:10, 3 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The name of the dance derives from the Zeibek who were Greek warriors of Asia minor.It say it clearly : Babiniotis, Georgios (1998). "ζεϊμπέκικος". Lexiko tis Neas Ellinikis Glossas. Athens: Kentro Lexikologias. p. 709. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.64.45.206 (talk) 14:02, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
(1) Babioniotis speaks not of "Greek warriors" but of warriors who were islamized descendants of Greeks. But whatever they were, (2) it is not relevant to this article (we have sourced coverage of Zeibeks at the Zeibeks article); (3) it's not reliably sourced. Babiniotis is a competent source on the etymologies of words, but he is not an authority on the history of these ethnicities and tribes. For that purpose, we'd have to cite proper historians. Fut.Perf.☼ 15:03, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly. To call the Zeybeks "Greeks" after they had been Muslims for centuries is wrong. "zeybek" is a term for an irregular warrior, along the lines of the bashi-bouzouks or the cetes. The most detailed account in Greek, Οι ζεϊμπέκοι της Μικράς Ασίας, mentions the "possible" descent from Thracians and Phrygians along other theories. Going from this τo the unequivocal assertion that "they were Greek warriors" is a long way... Whatever their ancestors were ten generations before matters as little as whether a modern Greek has Albanians, Slavs or Germans in his family tree. Read whatever Greek account you want from the 19th and 20th centuries and you will find them as brigands, preying on the Christian Greek population. They certainly did not perceive themselves as Greeks... Constantine ✍ 15:33, 3 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]
So Babiniotis concede that,zeibeks were warriors who were islamized descendants of Greeks too (Ζειμπεκιδες - ηταν απογονοι Ελληνων).So this is a good opportunity to be mentioned. (By the way you forgot to mention that Greek tree is also pure too,according to recognised universities dna and genetic sciences and studies,by American union since 1960 till today,an answer to the previous M.r.) - User talk:94.69.228.164 08:43, 1 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
If zeybeks are greek then how come there were no zeybek dances during byzantine empire? the zeybeks were predominantly from yoruk or turkmen origin. it might be so that some zeybeks could have been greeks, because the zeybek dances still exist in greece, but the dance came to greece via the population exchange of greeks to greece.
In any case you are free to call your own zeibekiko what you want, but you cannot conclude that the zeybek warriors themselfs were islamised greeks.
and this article is about the dance zeibekiko, not about the warriors itself. so the article should not be put out of context.
I was going to revert your change because it becomes obvious that it has no value to the article itself, leaving to guess about your intentions which to my opinion are not neutral. Kelmahir (talk) 15:42, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The majority of people didnt understand what you wrote so I'll try to make it more clear. The Zeibekiko is clearly a folk dance and a Greek creating by Greeks of Asia minor (SEE Greek refuges,too). Its the same dance like rebetiko, chasapiko and many other Greek dances, creatings of the Greeks. So it would be difficult and high dubious ,to reference a dance Greek; if its not a GREEK MADE.what a hell; - Otherwise zeibeks were officialy descedants of Greeks who were living in Prussa, Aidini and then moved in Asia Minor, where its obviously that turks kept only the name (zeybek). The majority of people worldwide, doesnt know this turkish dance, which is only just a copy of the name from the Hieratic ancient dance, that Greeks from ancient Thrace transferred there, and brought back as refugees to Greece in 1922. (its like the pontian lyra).(Even me,I just found out the previous week that is in use,or exist a dance in Turkey with this name(?) ) I qhote the 2 strong following examples from two dances, both. There is no similarity with the wellknown worldwide by Greek diaspora ancient Greek dance zeibekiko of 9/8 (τα λεγόμενα εννέα όγδοα, ήταν η μελωδία που χόρευαν οι ιέρειες του θεού Διόνυσου και εκστασιάζονταν,επισης δεν έχει καμια σχεση με τον τουρκικo..., είναι ιερατικός χορός. - page,275), and if someone claims that there is 1% a similarity between the following examples then maybe should be in need of some mental cares of deaf ailments: There is the copy-name dance zeybek and this is an example of knowable zeibekiko. Maybe why some profess that zeibekiko hardly danced. So passing the years its difficult to accept some people in their mind, that whatever act like in their instruments and baptize modern turkish, in fact is Greek culture (with a general reflect to byzantine music). (I must add also, for this article, that zeibekiko come from Zeus (+bread-bekos)) In turkish language for zeibekikos or zeibek there is NO meaning, in severe rationale neither in simple grammar. So if someone chance it it will be mentioned with original references,this time.the dance of Greeks who immigrated to Asia Minor from Thrace. These immigrants, called zeibekfli or zeibektdes Also,regarding the history edit I see no turks (Ips) that not accept the Greek origin of the dance, except a few foreigners and some extraneous with these issues, local users...[4] -Roins (talk) 16:27, 25 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Dear Kelmahir and Roins, I don't think it's productive to try to debate the origin of the Zeibekiko dance from first principles in this way. Wikipedia is not a general discussion forum. What is needed is neutral WP:Reliable sources, ideally third-party. --Macrakis (talk) 13:44, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I just placed a section for the truth of the origin of zeibekiko, because there is no other way, based on WP:Reliable sources. --Roins (talk) 13:55, 27 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Εχει δικιο ο παραπανω κι ενας κουφος θα καταλαβαινε την διαφορα μεταξυ Ζειμπεκικου και κλεμενου. Αν ειναι σωστοι ας βαλουν ενα ακουστικο sample στο αρθρο Zeybek, να βλεπει κ ο κοσμος την ομοιοτητα με τον Ελληνικο ζειμπεκικο, θα γελαει κ ο καθε πικραμενος χα χα!(τα λεμε) --Futurecomeon (talk) 23:05, 30 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I have finally again removed the reference the pseudo-etymology related to "Zeus" and "bekos". We were seemingly saying that this claim was something from "old folklore" or a "folk etymology" – but that contextualization itself is WP:OR and we don't know if it's true. This idea could have come from anywhere, and it's actually unlikely that it's a genuine folk tradition itself. What we had in terms of sources was just two random amateur writers asserting the etymological claim as true: one 1950s travel writer by name of Peter Mayne, writing in Cornhill Magazine; and one person by the name of Katia Savrami writing in a journal called "Dance Studies", who currently is a dance scholar with a Ph.D. at a Greek university but apparently wrote this when she was still an undergraduate student (she's calling herself an "aspiring dance researcher" in the article, and the article was published two years before she earned her M.A. [5]). Neither of the two is a reliable source about the matter at hand, etymology; only an academic linguist or historian could be. Nor does either of the two sources offer the kind of critical contextualization that we would need in order to be able to competently talk about this claim as being a folk tradition or whatever else. If we don't know where this idea comes from, and in the absence of anything indicating that it's anything more than abjectly speculative amateurish folk-etymology of the worst kind, it's better not to talk about it at all. Fut.Perf.☼ 11:52, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hello my friend, sources can be proven reliable, with a third source. An independent third source is the source that describes a subject, without any interest associated with it. According to wipipedia rule this happen not to overlook the role of primary sources of an article, but it will ensure that the section can be written with an independent and neutral view with this use. University press (magazines, books, sites, etc.) or a National Magazine and locally valid and recognized document etc can be refered according the rules.
This had also ensued from a documented discussion between us and had achieved by consesus, documented by other users, too. So I re-added --Dactarianou (talk) 15:25, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Can you show me that discussion? I don't remember it. In any case, I don't believe any of us ever checked the reliability of those two sources in the way I did just now. I just demonstrated why they are both unreliable; you haven't responded to that. What other sources do you propose? Fut.Perf.☼ 15:35, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Another one book depending on the folk-etymology about this dance. Edits from the documented discussion that had achieved and archived for a long time before. A documented work can be referred according to WP. even it is a pseydohistoric view. The source Many authors. "Ζεϊμπέκικος". Pandect: The World of Greek Dance also proove it as folk-etymology.
If the connection between the words folk-etymology and pseudohistory pose the problem can be replaced depending on the desiderata. --Dactarianou (talk) 15:48, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
What I can see now is that we had a discussion on my talkpage (archived at thread 1thread 2) in mid-2012. In this discussion I raised pretty much the same objections as now, and I'm afraid to say your responses show that there was a considerable degree of difficulty of communication between us due to your command of English – just like then, I'm still finding it difficult to figure out what you are trying to say, and I very much suspect you aren't understanding everything I'm saying. In any case, our discussion certainly didn't end in a consensus between us. I may have failed to follow up on your last proposal, but I certainly wasn't agreeing with it, and so I am re-raising my old objections now. The problem remains the same: the sources we have aren't reliable sources with respect to the domain in question, so we can't use them to simply support the claim as if taking it at face value, while at the same time we have nothing to support the necessary hedging/contextualization (as pseudo-etymology), so we can't critically discuss the claim without committing WP:OR either. In the last discussion you hinted that the claim might go back to Scarlatos Byzantios (quite plausible; he was certainly fond of making up stuff like this), but even if we had an exact citable ref for that it would still not solve the basic problem. As for the "pandect" website [6], I'm not actually seeing anything it says about it; where does it? Fut.Perf.☼ 16:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Material from reliable non-academic sources may also be used, especially when it occurs in respected mainstream publications. Other reliable sources include university-level textbooks, books published by respected publishing houses, magazines, journals, major newspapers. Electronic media may also be used, subject to the same criteria. Ι just reffer what the W:P supports. So why it has to be received a very-well known folkloric suggestion? Primary Sources: Another one book depending on the folk-etymology, plus the Many authors. "Ζεϊμπέκικος". Pandect: The World of Greek DanceΟ Πλάτων δίνει την "φιλοσοφία" του χορού με την περιγραφή των στάσεων και των κινήσεών του. Οι χορευτές έμοιαζαν να επιτίθενται σ' έναν εχθρό με τόξο και βέλη, ακόντιο και κάθε είδους χτυπήματα, όπως "γέρνοντας πλάγια" (έκπνευσις), "υποχωρώντας" (ύπεξις), "πηδώντας" (εκπήδησις), "σκύβωντας" (ταπείνωσις).Ο Baud-Bovy στο δοκίμιο για το ελληνικό δημοτικό τραγούδι γράφει: "Ο Ζεϊμπέκικος είναι χορός σε 9/8. Επειδή όμως η χρονική του αγωγή είναι πιο αργή γράφεται συνήθως 9/4.Ο Σίμων Καρράς γράφει: "Οι Καρσιλαμάδες και τα Ζεϊμπέκικα είναι παράδοσις όχι ανατολίτικη αλλά τούτων των νησιών (Μυτιλήνη-Χίο) και των απέναντι μικρασιατικών παραλίων όπου κατοικούσε η παλαιά μη-τουρκική φυλή των Ζεϊμπέκων. Κληρονομιά αρχαιοελληνική και ρυθμική και χορευτική αφού το ρυθμικό τους σχήμα των 9 χρόνων διαφαίνεται στης λεσβίας Σαπφούς τις ωδές απ' την αρχαία εποχή.
Translate: Plato gives the "philosophy" of dance to describe the attitudes and movements. The dancers seemed to be attacking an enemy with bow and arrows, spear and all kinds of hits, such as "tilting sideways" (ekpnefsis), "receding" (ypexis), "jumping" (ekpidisis), "skyvontas" (humiliation)The Baud-Bovy in the essay on the Greek folk song writes: "The Zeimpekikos is dancing on 9/8. However, since the time of action is slower usually written nine quarters.Simon Karras writes : "Heritage and ancient rhythmic and dance after the rhythmic pattern of nine years appears Joined lesbian Sappho the odes from ancient times.
What we can see here is too many references about the origin of this dance, such as folk etymology, or such as main theory. --Dactarianou (talk) 17:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Where in all of this is anything said about the "Zeus"/"bekos" claim? Fut.Perf.☼ 17:21, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
We focuses on the argument of "ancient Greek dances".
Dance Studies Volume 16, Centre for Dance Studies, 1989. and
^ The Cornhill Magazine, Volume 169, 1957. are enough for W:P (books published by publishing houses, magazines, journals, major newspapers and media can be include), who defend the view of "Zeus"/"bekos" claim.
(Also in Hellenic Music from another one respective author, also include it.) --Dactarianou (talk) 18:08, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You didn't answer my question. Why did you quote that "pandect" website and the "Cultural Guide" book, if they both are not actually saying anything about the etymology? Are you just employing smokescreen tactics? And the "hellenic-arts.com" website is again just some guy's self-published website and utterly useless as a source – there is not the slightest hint that this self-styled "musicologist" has any credible authority in matters of etymology. As for the Cornhill Magazine and the "Dance Studies" volume, no, they are not enough to count as reliable sources, and I explained to you why in my very first posting above. Next time you post here, please make more of an effort at understanding and addressing the points I make; otherwise this conversation will be pointless. Fut.Perf.☼ 18:23, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
W:P supports this tactick for example to be referenced this version of that books. Who can prohibited it? where so much the better because this version (the extra origin of the word) it is plus widespread in people; and the most important, sources does not affect the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view. So where is the problem if someone adds another one permissible extra view?
On "pandect" I quote this source because it complots on the extra opinion with our subject, throughout the origin... "antiquity of the dance" as a general view.
- For the other example "hellenic-arts.com" wiki policies supports: These opinions can be acceptable and used as sources if the writers are professionals. Of course I'll add to that, the whole thing is viewing from the eyes of folklores and the tradition of people.
--Dactarianou (talk) 20:59, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
...this is one more hardly-understandable "answer" that does not adress the points made by FPS...--Phso2 (talk) 22:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but I'll have to ask you to do something to improve your English before you attempt to discuss this or similar topics again. It is not possible to have a coherent discussion with you like this. I'll be reverting your edits; my arguments above stand and have still not been properly addressed. Fut.Perf.☼ 21:58, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
So, we got two sources that they are recipients by the wiki-policies (Dance Studies Volume 16, Centre for Dance Studies, 1989. and
^ The Cornhill Magazine, Volume 169, 1957.#see also Wikipedia:Verifiability). I think I became understandable. Also in Hellenic Music from another one respective author, is appearing the folkloric view. Why you reverted please a very well confirmed opinion when it is not affected on the Wikipedia:Neutral point of view? What is the problem?--Dactarianou (talk) 22:23, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
First, the reference needs to actually support the claim you make. Second, it needs be a reliable source in the relevant field. I don't know who Vaggelis Papageorgiou (the author of the Hellenic Music website) is; but I doubt he is an expert in etymology. (He may well be quoting a folk etymology he has read or heard somewhere.) - Mike Rosoft (talk) 18:02, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
A phrasing like "A folk etymology derives the name of the dance from ..." (without any further analysis) might be acceptable, but I don't think it's really needed in the article. (How widespread is the belief in this etymology, and what sources do you have for that claim?) - Mike Rosoft (talk) 18:13, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
There are still several problems. One is that the term "folk etymology" is actually being mis-used here (in the technical linguistic sense, a folk etymology is something considerably more specific than simply a (false) etymology proposed by popular belief). Then, even if we had a proper and acceptable term for what to call such a "popular" pseudo-etymology, it would still be OR to call it that – and quite probably wrong too, because we have some indication that the origin of this etymology claim may have been Scarlatos Byzantios, which would certainly not make it "folk" (but rather a product of learned fancy speculation). Fut.Perf.☼ 20:32, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but it is not prohibited a reference on a secondary theory when there is no problem with Neutral point. And yes, it is very much widespreed as a folkloric hypothesis today to claim that there is non failure as fact. I agree with Mike Rosoft to refered as phrasing like "A folk etymology derives the name of the dance from ...". --Dactarianou (talk) 21:11, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, since there is no controversy, I' m restoring the alternative folkloric perception for the name of the dance, by adding the above phrasing. --Dactarianou (talk) 18:09, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
About these recent reverts [7]: the same still applies as discussed above. The "bekos" claim is such a transparently ludicrous piece of pseudo-etymology it falls under the heading of exceptional claims that require exceptionally good sources. The science that deals with etymologies is linguistics; hence, only a reputable academic publication by a competent linguist will count as a source here. Babiniotis, author of Lexiko tis neas ellinikis glossas, is something of an authority on Modern Greek lexicography and generally a decent source when it comes to etymologies. In contrast, Mr Kalogeropoulos, author of Lexiko tis ellinikis mousikis, may no doubt be an expert on Greek music, but that doesn't mean he knows anything about the way names are transmitted from language to language and from generation to generation, which is what historical linguistics deals with. Fut.Perf.☼ 21:29, 26 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Semi-protected edit request on 21 November 2015[edit]
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Zeibekiko (Greek: Ζεϊμπέκικο) is a Greek folk dance which follows the Byzantine rhythmic pattern of 9/4[1] or else 9/8. it is most commonly broken down as: Genglund (talk) 18:43, 21 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Adding that there rhythmic derives from the byzantine rhythm of 9/8.
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Stabila711 (talk) 06:50, 22 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]
References
^Kilpatrick, David. "Ethnomusicology", Vol. 6, No. 3, Canadian Issue (Sep., 1972), p. 577.
Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. — Bility (talk) 22:23, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. --Stabila711 (talk) 06:50, 22 November 2015 (UTC)
![[3]](http://www.historyforkids.org/learn/westasia/art/pictures/hittitemusic.jpg){kind=link}