Template:Did you know nominations/Alepotrypa cave

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:11, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

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Alepotrypa cave[edit]

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Distinctive stalagmites and stalactites of the Diros caves
Distinctive stalagmites and stalactites of the Diros caves
  • ... that Neolithic burial practices at the Alepotrypa cave may be the origin for the later mythological tradition of Hades? Source: "He speculated that the ancient Greek notion of Hades, a gloomy and misty home for the dead, may have had its origins in the cave's rituals." USA Today)
    • ALT1: ... that the Alepotrypa cave is one of the largest known Neolithic burial sites in Europe? Source: "The Alepotrypa—or "foxhole"—Cave represents one of the largest Neolithic burial sites known in all of Europe." [1]
    • ALT2:... that the Alepotrypa cave may have been the origin for the later mythological tradition that the cave at Tainaron was an entrance to Hades?Source: "Though it's currently impossible to prove, the burial tradition at Alepotrypa may have survived in cultural memory, eventually becoming associated with Tainaron by the Classical period." [2]
  • Reviewed: This is my first DYK nom.

Improved to Good Article status by Seraphim System (talk). Self-nominated at 09:45, 12 February 2018 (UTC).

  • Article was promoted to GA status in the required timeframe. It's a bit on the short side for a GA, but considering the material and the sourcing, that's not much of a problem. Article is neutral, images are properly licensed, and free of close paraphrasing, As this is the nominator's first DYK nomination, a QPQ is unnecessary. Sourcing to offline sources accepted in good faith. Of the hooks, ALT0 is the best, followed by ALT2; as such, both are approved. Which hook to use is up to the promoter. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 11:56, 13 February 2018 (UTC)
  • Hi, I came by to promote this, but I don't see the ALT0 hook fact clearly stated in the article. The sentence linking to the USA Today article only talks about cultural memory. Yoninah (talk) 23:08, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Checking again the quote I provided for Alt0 does not say anything about cultural memory. Seraphim System (talk) 22:04, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Are we talking about the same thing? I see the USA Today quote in footnote 8: He speculated that the ancient Greek notion of Hades, a gloomy and misty home for the dead, may have had its origins in the cave's rituals. But the two sentences in the article which cite this source say only: Mythological tradition says there was an entrance to the underworld domain of the Greek god of death Hades at the nearby site of Tainaron, and it is possible that the cultural memory of the burial site at Alepotrypa had become associated with Tainaron by the Classical period. Anastasia Papathanasiou, co-director of the Diros excavation added that "there's no direct evidence, but we can't rule out that possibility". Where does your article mention the connection between Neolithic burial practices and the Hades myth in the article? The article instead seems to be connecting "the cultural memory of the burial site" with the Hades myth. Yoninah (talk) 22:31, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
I think it is in the lede: "Archaeologists are uncertain about the significance of a Mycenaen ossuary, which has been dated to the 2nd millennium BC and appears to have been reburied at Alepotrypa. While there is no direct evidence, it is possible that the ossuary may link Alepotrypa to Tainaron, which was regarded as the entrance to Hades in classical mythology." I agree it is a bit confusing because the ossuary is the link, and it is dated after the Neolithic. Would this be better:
ALT3: ...that archaeologists believe burial practices at the Alepotrypa Cave may have been the origin of the the later mythological tradition of Hades? Seraphim System (talk) 13:25, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
  • @Seraphim System: ALT3 sounds fine, but whatever hook you write, the fact has to appear in the article with an inline cite. There is no cite for the sentence in the lead. Yoninah (talk) 14:48, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
Oh ok, didn't think of that - let's go with Alt 3 then. It is supported by this sentence in the article "Mythological tradition says there was an entrance to the underworld domain of the Greek god of death Hades at the nearby site of Tainaron, and it is possible that the cultural memory of the burial site at Alepotrypa had become associated with Tainaron by the Classical period." which has two inline cites. I think it should be enough that it says burial site to support using "burial practices" in the hook? Seraphim System (talk) 22:22, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Sorry, all these hooks trying to make a connection between Alepotrypa and Hades are pure speculation; are attributed to one archaeologist, not "archaeologists"; and would work better with the article about Tainaron, which has the direct association with the Hades myth. (BTW I think you should add this information to the latter article.) In the meantime, I'm going ahead and approving ALT1, which is sourced in the article and goes with the image. Rest of review per Narutolovehinata5. ALT1 good to go. Yoninah (talk) 11:03, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
I disagree, it is sourced to two archaeologists, not one, that both had high-level positions on the excavation team and are experts for this topic. It has been reported by multiple reliable secondary sources. Yes, it is speculation, but it is their theory about their dig as reported by multiple secondary sources and the hook as I rewrote (...that archaeologists believe burial practices at the Alepotrypa Cave may have been the origin of the the later mythological tradition of Hades) is clear that it is speculation and it is directly supported by at least three inline citations in the article. I don't see any justification to strike a hook that is supported by multiple, independent secondary sources.Seraphim System (talk) 04:25, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
  • I think it's time for another reviewer to look at this nomination and determine if your claim for ALT3 is appropriate. Yoninah (talk) 11:58, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
Fair enough, when another reviewer picks this up - This is the first time I have tried to write a hook, and I'm open to helpful suggestions on how to phrase but I would like to keep Hades in there because it has been widely and prominently covered by multiple sources. There are at least three sources in the article that discuss this and two have it in their headlines "Portals to the Underworld" in Archaeology and "Ancient cave speaks of Hades myth". I think there should be some way to refine this so it meets the requirements for the hook. Please ping me on this thread, I have been busy and semi-active and do not want to miss comments here. Seraphim System (talk) 18:25, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

@Yoninah: Am I allowed to review ALT3, or should another user do it? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 03:52, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

ALT3 needs to be revised: the hook directly says that burial practices at the cave may have been directly linked to a belief about Hades, but looking at the article again it only implicitly makes this connection, only focusing on Tainaron. In addition, the hook says "archaeologists believe" but the article only states that the connection is a possibility and not directly confirmed; either the hook or the article needs to be rewritten to reflect this. Perhaps an alternate hook focusing on the "cultural memory" could work here too. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 09:23, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
@Narutolovehinata5: Please ping me on these so I don't miss them - the hook says archaeologists believe ... may - is there some way I could make this clearer? The hook doesn't say it is confirmed, but the way it is written is correct. When you say looking at the article again it only implicitly makes this connection, do you mean our article, or the WP:RS article? - I am happy to add Tainaron back into the hook if that would make it better. It is a hook - it's not supposed to be a detailed explanation. Tainaron was believed to be the entrance to Hades, and the archaeologists who worked at the excavation believe that Alepotrypa, which is an earlier burial site, may have predated that and served as the inspiration for it. Is the problem the hook itself or the fact that it is not stated explicitly in the article? Seraphim System (talk) 12:10, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
Hmm...I see what you mean about the text in the article. How about this: archelogists believe that the cultural memory of the Alepotrypa vave may have become associated with Tainaron by the classical era?Seraphim System (talk) 12:26, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
@Seraphim System: This proposed hook sounds a bit confusing: I thought it was the other way around, that it is the cave and not Tainaron that was a cultural memory? Pinging Yoninah for her possible input here. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 13:31, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
  • As above, I think the connection between Alepotrypa→Tainaron→Hades is tenuous at best, and that this hook idea is going nowhere. I suggest sticking with ALT1, which is sourced and will interest our archaeology fans. Yoninah (talk) 19:25, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
The hook (ALT 4) that I proposed is basically verbatim in the GA article, and it is well-sourced, WP:JDL is not a valid reason to exclude a hook. I'm also not sure if Narutolovehinata5 read the hook carefully before replying - the hook does not say that Tainaron is a cultural memory. It says archelogists believe that the cultural memory of the Alepotrypa cave may have become associated with Tainaron by the classical era? - this is sourced and basically verbatim in an article that passed GA after a thorough and careful review. It really looks like this is WP:JDL based on Yoninah's personal opinion of the archaeologists theory about Tainaron and not what the WP:RS actually say about it.Seraphim System (talk) 18:13, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Huh? Where did I say "I don't like it"? Two editors have already questioned your hook and it has been sitting on the noms page for two months. Perhaps it's time for you to WP:DROPTHESTICK and finalize an acceptable hook. Honestly, ALT1 in the image slot will garner a lot of hits. Yoninah (talk) 18:37, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
I made a minor revision to the article - the hook and the article are basically close to verbatim now. The article says:

...archaeologists working on the excavation believe it is possible that the cultural memory of the burial site at Alepotrypa had become associated with Tainaron by the Classical period.

and the proposed hook is

archelogists believe that the cultural memory of the Alepotrypa cave may have become associated with Tainaron by the classical era?.

The reason you are giving for striking it is I think the connection between Alepotrypa→Tainaron→Hades is tenuous at best - how is that anything other than WP:JDL based on a personal disagreement with the widely reported opinion of the expert archaeologists who worked on the excavation. I'm new here but I thought this review was based on whether there was an error in the hook or whether the hook is clearly stated and has an inline cite in the article. I don't think you agreeing with the WP:RS is a requirement, and it looks like the second reviewer misread the hook since his objection was I thought it was the other way around, that it is the cave and not Tainaron that was a cultural memory? - I think User:Yoninah since he has a strong non-neutral opinion about the content of the hook based on a personal disagreement with the archeologists theory should perhaps take his own advice and step back, and allow a second reviewer to continue the review process.Seraphim System (talk) 18:55, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

  • Huh? again. Why are you ABF here? Until a few days ago you were insisting that Hades had to be mentioned in the hook. That is why I questioned your Alepotrypa→Tainaron→Hades connection. Now you are proposing an ALT4 which is not labeled as such, so I missed it. Let's format it properly here:
  • ALT4: ... that archaelogists believe the cultural memory of the Alepotrypa cave may have become associated with Tainaron by the classical era?
  • Yes, the hook is verified by the source, but no, it is not hooky. Anyone (like me) who has never heard of Tainaron will not click on it.
  • I'm happy to defer to another reviewer. Yoninah (talk) 19:04, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes, the hook is verified by the source, but no, it is not hooky. - I kind of agree with this but I don't think ALT1 is "hooky" either. The best hook will have some mention of Hades - I only changed it to Tainaron because reviewers seem to be unwilling to let through a hook unless it is verbatim in the article, and I don't want to make the writing in the article less clear over a hook. I would prefer to link to Hades as well because they are the same thing and it is more "hooky" - the full sentence in the article is:
  • Mythological tradition says there was an entrance to the underworld domain of the Greek god of death Hades at the nearby site of Tainaron, and archaeologists working on the excavation believe it is possible that the cultural memory of the burial site at Alepotrypa had become associated with Tainaron by the Classical period.
  • and the hook could read archelogists believe that the cultural memory of the burial site at Alepotrypa cave may have become associated with Hades by the classical era?.

Seraphim System (talk) 19:15, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

  • ALT5 looks better, but the National Geographic source is linking the cultural memory of Alepotrypa with Tainaron. Perhaps add another word?
  • ALT5a: ... that archaeologists believe that the cultural memory of the burial site at Alepotrypa cave may have become associated with Tainaron and the entrance to Hades by the Classical era? Yoninah (talk) 19:23, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Support ALT 5a - ALT1 seems a bit boring, 5a is more interesting and hooky. Seraphim System (talk) 19:26, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@Yoninah: @Seraphim System: Hook seems a bit too long, maybe a slightly shorter hook may work; maybe linking only either one of either Tainaron or Hades would do. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:56, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
I think it is 179 characters, which is well within the 200 character limit. Seraphim System (talk) 04:18, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
@Seraphim System: It is, but it feels too busy with mentioning both Tainaron and Hades. Personally, I would prefer if it mentions Hades alone since Tainaron isn't that famous outside of big Greek history buffs. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 04:29, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
  • ALT5b: ... that archaeologists believe that the cultural memory of the burial site at Alepotrypa cave may have become associated with the mythological entrance to Hades by the Classical era? Yoninah (talk) 10:40, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
  • @Yoninah: @Seraphim System: ALT5b is almost ready and I'm ready to tentatively approve it; just a question: is the mention of the Classical era necessary? Perhaps it could just simply mention the Hades part without mentioning the Classical era? Or is that an essential part of the archaeological theory? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 15:01, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
ALT 5b works too - I think dropping "by the Classical era" would make it more hooky also. Interested readers can click on the article to find out more.Seraphim System (talk) 04:21, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Can we also drop the second that?:
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