Template:Did you know nominations/Jack James (rocket engineer)
- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:36, 3 January 2013 (UTC)
Jack James (rocket engineer)[edit]
- ... that in the 1960s Jack N. James was a project manager at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory for the Mariner 2 and Mariner 4 spacecraft to Venus and Mars, the first-ever successful planetary missions?
- Reviewed: First QPQ review is at Template:Did you know nominations/William Francis (civil engineer); second QPQ review is at Template:Did you know nominations/Soldier Artificer Company.
- Comment: Another article may be created in next few days to go with this one (this was Robert J. Parks). Alternative hook to include both articles is below. Could whoever deals with this nomination please check that this edit was correct? Thanks.
Created by Carcharoth (talk). Self nom at 05:34, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
There is a discrepancy between what the hook says and the article, which states "deputy program manager for planetary projects that included managing aspects of NASA's Mariner program". Deputy program manager =/= project manager, and Mariner 2 and Mariner 4 are not clearly linked in text to the work of this person; the article just states that those projects were developed around the same time, but the hook draws an unsubstantiated conclusion. Date and size are fine, but the hook needs revision (or the article, rewording some claims). Ping me on my talk for a re-review. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 15:17, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for this. I was just looking into this some more this morning. My interest in this started when I created the article Stuart Ballantine Medal and noticed the two redlinks for Jack N. James and Robert J. Parks who were jointly awarded that prize in 1967 for their work on Mariner 4 (I'm currently working on a draft article for Parks, who died last year, to be included in this hook). What I needed for both was a clear source that gives the actual titles and positions held at JPL during their careers. I had thought I had found enough on this to write the articles and a hook, but not all sources (including the obituaries for James) are clear on this (sometimes the hierarchies at JPL and within NASA, labyrinthine at the best of times, can get confusing). I've now found Jack N. James Collection, 1945-1986 and Robert J. Parks Collection, 1983-1987, which are archival record summaries from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory Library and Archives. Both those records give the entire careers of both men including the job titles they held and when, so I am now able to clarify things for both. I'll do that tonight. What is clear is that they were both managers at JPL and both worked on Mariner 2 and Mariner 4. Incidentally, an excellent account of the Mariner 2 mission, giving an idea of the range of people working on it, is here (that also makes clear that James was project manager). The 50th anniversary of Mariner 2's flyby of Venus was earlier this month, it is a pity no-one was able to bring that article to featured status - there will be a lot of spaceflight 50th anniversaries over the coming decade, several big milestones have been missed already. The one thing I'm a bit concerned about is that the NSSDC record for Mariner 2 names someone else as Project Manager (James Slattin Martin, Jr. who in fact worked on the Viking program, see also here, so I think the NSSDC page on Mariner 2 is just wrong). Though the NSSDC record for Mariner 4 does name James as Project Manager (as does the JPL picture caption of him in the White House with President Johnson. Possibly there were several levels of management, with Project Manager for each mission being one of those levels. Not sure if you have this page watchlisted, but (per the user talk page message you left me) will ping you when this is all ready for another look. Carcharoth (talk) 15:56, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- I'll wait for your ping, in the meantime, I'd suggest that if there are contradictory sources, we note this clearly with a footnote. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:39, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
- I think better sources are needed. I've found a copy of the press release from NASA on 15 August 1962, which states:
Later in the same press release it states:"Key personnel in the Mariner Project are: Fred D. Kochendorfer, Mariner Program Chief, NASA Headquarters; D. L. Forsythe, Agena Program Chief; Robert J. Parks, Planetary Program Director for JPL; J. N. James, JPL, Mariner Project Manager; W. A. Collier, JPL, Assistant Project Manager; Dan Schneiderman, JPL, Spacecraft System Manager; Friedrich Duerr. MSFC, Launch Vehicle Systems Manager; Major J. G. Albert, Mariner Launch Vehicle Director for AF33D; and H. T. Lusicin, Director for NASA Programs, Lockheed Missiles and Space Company."
Does that help clear things up at all? In terms of management levels, you clearly have program and project manager levels at JPL, and program managers at NASA Headquarters as well, both for the Mariner program as a whole and for the individual Mariner spacecraft. Carcharoth (talk) 15:36, 29 December 2012 (UTC)The integration of the scientific experiments and the generation of a number of the experiments was carried out at JPL under the direction of Dr. M. Eimer. JPL project scientist was R. C. Wyckoff and J. S. Martin was responsible for the engineering of scientific experiments."
- I think better sources are needed. I've found a copy of the press release from NASA on 15 August 1962, which states:
- I'll wait for your ping, in the meantime, I'd suggest that if there are contradictory sources, we note this clearly with a footnote. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 11:39, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
- Thanks for this. I was just looking into this some more this morning. My interest in this started when I created the article Stuart Ballantine Medal and noticed the two redlinks for Jack N. James and Robert J. Parks who were jointly awarded that prize in 1967 for their work on Mariner 4 (I'm currently working on a draft article for Parks, who died last year, to be included in this hook). What I needed for both was a clear source that gives the actual titles and positions held at JPL during their careers. I had thought I had found enough on this to write the articles and a hook, but not all sources (including the obituaries for James) are clear on this (sometimes the hierarchies at JPL and within NASA, labyrinthine at the best of times, can get confusing). I've now found Jack N. James Collection, 1945-1986 and Robert J. Parks Collection, 1983-1987, which are archival record summaries from the Jet Propulsion Laboratory Library and Archives. Both those records give the entire careers of both men including the job titles they held and when, so I am now able to clarify things for both. I'll do that tonight. What is clear is that they were both managers at JPL and both worked on Mariner 2 and Mariner 4. Incidentally, an excellent account of the Mariner 2 mission, giving an idea of the range of people working on it, is here (that also makes clear that James was project manager). The 50th anniversary of Mariner 2's flyby of Venus was earlier this month, it is a pity no-one was able to bring that article to featured status - there will be a lot of spaceflight 50th anniversaries over the coming decade, several big milestones have been missed already. The one thing I'm a bit concerned about is that the NSSDC record for Mariner 2 names someone else as Project Manager (James Slattin Martin, Jr. who in fact worked on the Viking program, see also here, so I think the NSSDC page on Mariner 2 is just wrong). Though the NSSDC record for Mariner 4 does name James as Project Manager (as does the JPL picture caption of him in the White House with President Johnson. Possibly there were several levels of management, with Project Manager for each mission being one of those levels. Not sure if you have this page watchlisted, but (per the user talk page message you left me) will ping you when this is all ready for another look. Carcharoth (talk) 15:56, 28 December 2012 (UTC)
- How about using the phrase "was one of the managers"? I think the sources are sufficient for that more generic term with both M2 and M4. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 12:01, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
- I'd be happy with that (would you need to change the hook or shall I?). James was likely the key manager, so it is downplaying his role slightly, but then again it was a team effort involving around 250 people (stated in one of the sources), so it is possible to overplay the role single individuals play in large technological projects like this. What do you think of the alternate hook below? It would need the other new article to be reviewed as well. If you don't have time to do that, let me know, and I'll nominate it separately. Carcharoth (talk) 13:53, 30 December 2012 (UTC)
ALT hook:
- ... that Robert J. Parks and Jack N. James of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory received the 1967 Stuart Ballantine Medal for their work on Mariner 4, the first spacecraft to return pictures from Mars?
- This alternate hook includes another new article (the one on Robert J. Parks), but doesn't include the mention of Mariner 2 that I was hoping for (seeing as it was this mission that had its 50th anniversary this month). However, this hook might be more palatable. On what roles exactly James and Parks played in these missions, I hope the articles now make this clear. Carcharoth (talk) 23:20, 29 December 2012 (UTC)
- This hook is good to go. If you'd like me to consider others, please propose them as ALT2 and further. Ping me on talk when you want the green tick. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:40, 31 December 2012 (UTC)
Both articles checked and good to go. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 20:41, 1 January 2013 (UTC)
