Template:Did you know nominations/Rose Lambert

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The following discussion is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Allen3 talk 10:26, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

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Rose Lambert[edit]

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Rose Lambert

  • ... that Rose Lambert (pictured) reported that many Armenian widows and orphans saw their loved ones get "brutally" massacred before their eyes during the Adana massacres?
  • ALT1 ... that Rose Lambert (pictured) wrote about an Armenian who was "brutally massacred" after his eyes were dug out and his body was cut to pieces during the Adana massacre?

Created by Proudbolsahye (talk). Self nominated at 03:30, 4 July 2013 (UTC).

  • The hooks are poorly written and at the very least would need a copyedit, the article also needs a copyedit and strikes me as having POV issues. Also, I am uncomfortable with gruesome acts being sourced solely to offline references, since they can't be independently verified. Gatoclass (talk) 13:32, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Issues fixed. I don't see how the first hook is grammatically incorrect. Proudbolsahye (talk) 04:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Article needs better identification of some of its sources. For example, there is a reference citation to "Walker 1980", which is not identified further. More details are needed in reference citation for the book A Century of Genocide. --Orlady (talk) 06:19, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Since these references merely supplemented other sources, I guess that was an acceptable solution. However, their removal makes me wonder whether you read these sources, or if you cited them because they were cited in a source that you did read. Wikipedia advises us that reference citations should "say where you got it"; we shouldn't cite sources we didn't actually see. --Orlady (talk) 15:50, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
I've read Walker's book a while back and I have it in handy at my own home. I forgot to set up a bibliography on the page which I do with all my other articles (See: George Juskalian). Also, the century of genocide book is also online. Proudbolsahye (talk) 18:34, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Please don't bother with placing additional "talkback" templates on my talk page. I have this page watchlisted and I'm well aware of your recent changes to the article (you might notice that I have edited the article since your last edits -- that's because I was investigating the article topic due to this DYK nomination). --Orlady (talk) 21:30, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
Forgive me for that. Looking forward for your review. Proudbolsahye (talk) 17:18, 8 July 2013 (UTC)
I have struck the "DYKagain" icon you added above because that icon is supposed to be used when outstanding issues have been resolved and the review is ready to move forward, and in this case the issues previously raised have yet to be resolved. Gatoclass (talk) 17:32, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
I have discussed fixed the issues and discussed it on your talk page. You haven't responded. Since your comment some editors/admins have CE'd the article. That is why I stated that a third-party reviewer is needed. Proudbolsahye (talk) 20:38, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
Okay, well just to clarify, the nom is still under review by myself, but please show a little patience because it's going to take me a while to get back to it as I am quite busy right now. Gatoclass (talk) 11:09, 10 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Just to update the status of this nom: Both the hooks and the article need a substantial copyedit, and some statements in the article will need to be carefully checked against the sources for accuracy. I will try to get this done myself some time over the next few days (I have visitors staying over ATM so it's rather difficult), so that we can move forward with the review. Gatoclass (talk) 17:19, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I am looking forward to your review. Proudbolsahye (talk) 19:23, 12 July 2013 (UTC)
In answer to your question, yes I am still reviewing this, in fact I spent most of yesterday evening reading the whole of Lambert's book in order to gain a better perspective on the events in question. At this point, I believe the article needs a substantial amount of work and I intend to do some work on it over the next few days. Once again, my apologies for the long delay, but I had relatives staying here for three weeks, during which time I had little opportunity to edit, and I also picked up a respiratory infection from one of them which I have only just recovered from. Gatoclass (talk) 05:46, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
Understandable. Get well soon. Looking forward for your review. Proudbolsahye (talk) 05:52, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Drive-by comment (I might have another look at the article): we're not going to run a hook like that on the front page. It's way too sensationalist and two or three removes from the actual subject. Drmies (talk) 01:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Orlady, that Walker thing was interesting--I found the same thing in the main article, Adana massacre, without a book cited to go along with it. I found where it came from: it is cited exactly that way here. Well, that's water under the bridge; I don't know whose fault that was in that Adana article, which is no doubt where it was copied from in this one: very sloppily.

    I reviewed the article and made some serious tweaks, since there was too much content unrelated to the topic. As far as I'm concerned the article is fine. But we need a hook, something not so sensational. Of course this will require another reviewer... Something neutral. For instance:

  • ALT2 is... dull. Anything else? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 05:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
The article looks better after Drmies edits but I still have some concerns about it and am still working on it in user space - I hope to have the work done fairly soon. Gatoclass (talk) 07:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Gatoclass, I've patiently waited almost three months for your review. I'm afraid if I don't receive a ticker from you soon, I'll have to request another reviewer. Proudbolsahye (talk) 07:55, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
Less than 2 months according to my calendar. ;-)
After reading about Ms. Lambert, I hoped for a hook along the lines of something like "... that American missionary Rose Lambert's accounts of the 1909 Adana massacre in Armenia were an important influence on public opinion in the United States?", but unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a basis for that hook. How about this:
  • {{subst:DYKtick}} I'm not sure what Gatoclass's objections are, but this hook is fine with me. Just in case, I've "nowiki'ed" my tick. Drmies (talk) 14:52, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Note: in ALT 2 and 3 I changed "Armenia" to "Ottoman empire"--this should be uncontroversial since correct. Thank you Proudbolsahye. Drmies (talk) 17:27, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Not uncontroversial, IMO. I think it is vitally important that Armenia be mentioned (Armenia had an identity as a place even when it was governed by the Ottomans; by analogy, we wouldn't describe British India as "the British Empire"). The best way to identify both Armenia and Ottoman empire in both ALT2 and ALT3 would be "the 1909 massacre of Armenians in the Ottoman empire". --Orlady (talk) 17:50, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
  • Good point, Orlady; please change it, which should really be uncontroversial then, and let's wait and see if Gatoclass will remove the "nowikis" and move this on. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 17:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
I've nearly finished the rewrite, all I really have to do at this point is add some citations, but I'm not sure I will get this done today, if not I should get it done in the next couple of days. Gatoclass (talk) 13:02, 1 September 2013 (UTC)
BTW, ALT3 is unsuitable because Lambert does not appear to have personally witnessed any atrocities - she just reported the testimonies of survivors. Gatoclass (talk) 12:37, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

ALT4 ... that the memoirs of American missionary Rose Lambert (pictured) includes testimonies from survivors of the 1909 massacre of Armenians in the Ottoman empire? Proudbolsahye (talk) 13:13, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

That might be okay. I have deleted the word "published" however as it's redundant. I still want to add a couple more citations before giving this one the go-ahead BTW - I should be able to do that tomorrow. Gatoclass (talk) 15:02, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
  • This article is now ready for re-review. I should add that of the currently proposed hooks, only ALT2 and ALT4 are accurate and I have therefore struck the others. ALT2 looks like the best hook to me. Gatoclass (talk) 10:37, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
  • If ALT 3 is unsuitable because she wasn't an eyewitness, then ALT2 is equally unsuitable. ALT4 will work fine, I suppose. Note that I have changed "included" to "includes". But the Legacy section needs a citation still, per DYK rules, even though that could be just a formality. Drmies (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
I added to needed ref Drmies. Thanks for pointing that out. Proudbolsahye (talk) 14:16, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
I'm going to tick this off then, anticipating no objections from User:Gatoclass. ALT4 it is. Drmies (talk) 14:35, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
  • (edit conflict): I think ALT2 is okay because Lambert personally saw a number of Armenians get killed during these events. She did not however, personally witness any atrocities, which is what ALT3 says. I think ALT2 is better because it makes clear that Lambert was actually there and was a witness to the violence; ALT4 fails to get that point across. Gatoclass (talk) 14:42, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Rather than argue the toss about the existing alts any longer, I might propose an alt of my own:
  • ALT5 ... that the memoirs of American missionary Rose Lambert (pictured) document her experiences in Ottoman Turkey during the 1909 massacre of Armenians? Gatoclass (talk) 14:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
    • That's fine with me. Drmies (talk) 15:20, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
Okay, I've struck ALT4 for the deficiency noted above, we'll go with ALT5. Many thanks for your assistance on this difficult nom Drmies. I have reiterated your tick icon to emphasize that this one is ready for promotion. Gatoclass (talk) 16:00, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
No, thank you, and Orlady as well. Drmies (talk) 17:52, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
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