Template:Did you know nominations/Thou knowest, Lord, the secrets of our hearts (Purcell)
- The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:44, 11 April 2020 (UTC)
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Thou knowest, Lord, the secrets of our hearts (Purcell)
Henry Purcell, by John Closterman, 1695
... that Henry Purcell (pictured) composed basically two settings of Thou knowest, Lord, the secrets of our hearts, a complex one early, and a simple one for the burial of Queen Mary?Source: several
- Reviewed: Emerson Emory
- Comment: Sorry, a day late (because I was at a funeral almost all day yesterday). Sorry, such a long title that not much room is left for a hook. Sorry, the main source is offline. Sorry, even the publisher of his complete works (and many performers following) got confused about belonging or not to the Music composed for Queen Mary's burial, and the Z. numbers.
Created by Gerda Arendt (talk). Self-nominated at 15:55, 28 February 2020 (UTC).
- General eligibility:
- New enough:
- Technically no, but I'm not a stickler for this - Long enough:
| Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems |
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Hook eligibility:
- Cited:
- Interesting: - I just don't see the proposed hook as interesting to a general audience
| Image: Image is freely licensed, used in the article, and clear at 100px. |
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| QPQ: Done. |
Overall: 
I don't see this one going forward, because there's no compelling reason to waive/relax the newness standard in this case. Still a great article, just not one well suited to DYK to begin with. buidhe 16:35, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
- I don't know why a funeral in RL is no "compelling reason" for you. I really was not in the mood. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:20, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think there's much harm done in an IAR exemption in this case, since it was only a day late. With that said, I agree that the current hook as written is too technical to be interesting to a broad audience, although I think the Queen Mary part has potential. How about wordings like these then? I've written them in such a way that they avoid using the full title as the main link:
- ALT1
... that Henry Purcell wrote a chorale composition for the 1695 funeral of Queen Mary? - ALT2
... that among the funerary chorale compositions that Henry Purcell adapted from the Book of Common Prayer was one written for the 1695 funeral of Queen Mary?
- ALT1
- I think something else could be added to these, or the wordings could be tweaked further, but they could serve as good starting points for further ideas. What do you think Buidhe? Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 12:56, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry, the title has to be there. It will be recognised by many. There are several funeral sentences, and for the funeral of Queen Mary, Purcell composed only this single one, the others being by a different composer. - Please understand the difference between "chorale" - based on a chorale - and "choral" - for choir, but again, better don't pipe at all. - For me, it IS interesting that Purcell didn't set several of the part of a funeral service at all, but this one - and only this one - twice. Could you perhaps word that better? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:14, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- I don't think there's much harm done in an IAR exemption in this case, since it was only a day late. With that said, I agree that the current hook as written is too technical to be interesting to a broad audience, although I think the Queen Mary part has potential. How about wordings like these then? I've written them in such a way that they avoid using the full title as the main link:
- I don't know why a funeral in RL is no "compelling reason" for you. I really was not in the mood. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:20, 8 March 2020 (UTC)
- I'm really sorry Gerda, I was lazy and didn't read your entire comment. I still don't think that any of the proposed hooks are sufficiently interesting to a general audience, but I recognize that I may have higher standards than other people. buidhe 20:28, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- Would you have a suggestion, based on the comments? Some days I feel lack of English more than others. I find it kind of quirky that the Queen gets the simple version, and it would make me want to find out why (because he supplied a missing part to the existing work of someone else, in that one's style). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 20:39, 15 March 2020 (UTC)
- I'm very sorry Gerda, but I think at this point you need to realize that not everyone in the world is knowledgeable about classical music, and what may seem quirky to you may not seem so to reviewers or to general audiences. There are times when it seems you tend to overestimate how much the typical reader would recognize terms, names, and titles, and your comment above (which implies that audiences might know about "Thou knowest, Lord, the secrets of our hearts") is one of them. To be fair, I think many of us DYK regulars (myself included) are guilty of this, but it's something that needs to be avoided whenever possible. I would really suggest discussing with Buidhe about other possible hook wordings, those that may actually appeal not just to classical music fans, because right now it just doesn't seem that a hook about a complex and a simple would pass on DYK. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:16, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- I am surprised that you think the average user would not recognise the terms "simple" and "Queen". - I oversimplified the value the various versions have for musicologists, for that average user's sake. Sloppy version of a hook: ... that if someone speaks about TkLtsooh you have to ask which one? Want to word that? Most people think there is only one.
- ALT3:
... that Henry Purcell (pictured) set no complete Anglican burial servive to music, but one of its sentences twice, Thou knowest, Lord, the secrets of our hearts?--Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:09, 16 March 2020 (UTC)- That was not the point I made Gerda. I didn't say that average readers wouldn't know about queens: in fact, I mentioned above that a hook about the Queen Mary aspect would likely be the best option here. What I was saying was that terms like "composed basically two settings", "a complex one early" or "a simple one" wouldn't make much sense to those unfamiliar with classical music. Your ALT1 (which I've renumbered as ALT3) has the same issue: it doesn't make sense to people who don't know its context. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:50, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- I am afraid that I can't follow. My thinking: the sentence (without) will be highly familiar to everyone who knows English Anglican burial service tradition, which I assume will be many but not all, therefore I tried to explain the context, with a link. We could say that he wrote one of the many sentences for Queen Mary's funeral, but then would miss the one interesting thing: that for that purpose he composed a new one, although there was already an older one which he had polished again and again, (and therefore I said basically, because there are at least three versions of the early one). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:22, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- @Gerda Arendt: Narutolovehinata5 asked me for feedback, so may I suggest another hook?
- ALT4: ... that Henry Purcell (pictured) composed two settings of Thou knowest, Lord, the secrets of our hearts—one of which was for the burial of Queen Mary?
- ALT5: ... that Henry Purcell (pictured) composed two settings of Thou knowest, Lord, the secrets of our hearts, including a simple one for the burial of Queen Mary?
- I feel like these may appeal to a greater audience. epicgenius (talk) 16:43, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- Just passing by. My thoughts—the above two are not bad, IMO, but perhaps they still give away a bit much? What about keeping in reserve what the Queen Mary event is? Something like:
- ALT6:
... that Henry Purcell (pictured) composed two settings of Thou knowest, Lord, the secrets of our hearts, including a simple one for a most unfortunate day in Queen Mary's life?
- ALT6:
- Or something along those lines? Just an idea. Airborne84 (talk) 04:22, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- "Spare us, Lord!" - that's a quote from the text, DYK? Did you read above that the sentence is one of those recited at every Anglican burial? No secret about which kind of day, and how "in Q.M.'s life"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:59, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- My bad. Was just passing by. I did briefly scan the above discussion but must have missed it. Thanks for kindly pointing that out. But I'm new here, so I'll just move on and let you DYK veterans sort this one out. Airborne84 (talk) 22:37, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- "Spare us, Lord!" - that's a quote from the text, DYK? Did you read above that the sentence is one of those recited at every Anglican burial? No secret about which kind of day, and how "in Q.M.'s life"? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 06:59, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Just passing by. My thoughts—the above two are not bad, IMO, but perhaps they still give away a bit much? What about keeping in reserve what the Queen Mary event is? Something like:
- @Gerda Arendt: Narutolovehinata5 asked me for feedback, so may I suggest another hook?
- I am afraid that I can't follow. My thinking: the sentence (without) will be highly familiar to everyone who knows English Anglican burial service tradition, which I assume will be many but not all, therefore I tried to explain the context, with a link. We could say that he wrote one of the many sentences for Queen Mary's funeral, but then would miss the one interesting thing: that for that purpose he composed a new one, although there was already an older one which he had polished again and again, (and therefore I said basically, because there are at least three versions of the early one). --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:22, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- That was not the point I made Gerda. I didn't say that average readers wouldn't know about queens: in fact, I mentioned above that a hook about the Queen Mary aspect would likely be the best option here. What I was saying was that terms like "composed basically two settings", "a complex one early" or "a simple one" wouldn't make much sense to those unfamiliar with classical music. Your ALT1 (which I've renumbered as ALT3) has the same issue: it doesn't make sense to people who don't know its context. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 10:50, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
- I'm very sorry Gerda, but I think at this point you need to realize that not everyone in the world is knowledgeable about classical music, and what may seem quirky to you may not seem so to reviewers or to general audiences. There are times when it seems you tend to overestimate how much the typical reader would recognize terms, names, and titles, and your comment above (which implies that audiences might know about "Thou knowest, Lord, the secrets of our hearts") is one of them. To be fair, I think many of us DYK regulars (myself included) are guilty of this, but it's something that needs to be avoided whenever possible. I would really suggest discussing with Buidhe about other possible hook wordings, those that may actually appeal not just to classical music fans, because right now it just doesn't seem that a hook about a complex and a simple would pass on DYK. Narutolovehinata5 tccsdnew 00:16, 16 March 2020 (UTC)
On the other hand, perhaps I'll watch for a bit. It does seem like an interesting discussion. Perhaps I'll still yet be able to help. Airborne84 (talk) 22:49, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you for explaining, - I should have looked ;) - Anyway, I can live with ALT4 and ALT5, in case that was not clear. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:28, 26 March 2020 (UTC)
A new reviewer is needed for the remaining ALT hooks, ALT4 and ALT5; I've struck the others. I'm also proposing ALT7, which is based on ALT5, but which I think deals with the fact that Purcell revised the more complex setting a couple of times and replaces "simple" with the characterization from the article of "older" (based on "antiquated" in the source):
- ALT7: ... that of Henry Purcell's (pictured) settings of Thou knowest, Lord, the secrets of our hearts, the last was composed in an older style for the burial of Queen Mary? —BlueMoonset (talk) 21:49, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
