Template talk:Harvc

Harvc has parameter for author's first name but does not display it

Pinging Trappist the monk - I've been experimenting a little bit with {{harvc}} while correcting random CS1 errors. One recent edit of mine was to the Alternative medicine article and it points out to me that a couple of things could use small tweaks (in my opinion, at least). First, the template has a parameter for the chapter author's first name but doesn't show it in the reference it generates - I would think that the chapter author should have the first name shown, it's certainly possible that this would be the chapter author's only mention in the references. Also, the date output by {{harvc}} is bracketed, but the date in {{sfn}} usage is not. Shouldn't {{harvc}} have the same date output style as {{sfn}} or {{harvnb}}? As it happens, this {{harvc}} template call, reference #236, Stratten in Hahnemann (1833), is immediately before a call for Hahnemann 1833 using {{sfn}}, and the difference in output stands out due to the immediate proximity.

There were three other possible usages for {{harvc}} in that article but I chose not to use it and corrected the missing title errors in the original {{cite book}} calls by kludging {{cite journal}} instead (you can search the wikicode for "was cite book", I've used that text while commenting on the kludge). This allowed me to keep the same output as before without losing the chapter author's first name (or initials in these cases). One of these kludges also preserves a usage of |authorlink= which can't be used with {{harvc}}. Stamptrader (talk) 08:53, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

The default author list display is to be the same as {{sfn}} or any of the {{harv}} templates: up to three last names and if four then replace the fourth with et al. To display Stratten with the author's first name add |display-authors=all or |display-authors=etal as appropriate:

{{harvc |last=Stratten |first=S. |display-authors=all |chapter=Preface |in=Hahnemann |year=1833 |p=[http://books.google.com/books?id=EnEFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR3 iii]}}

et al. Preface. In Hahnemann (1833), p. iii.

|display-authors= with a number value in {{harvc}} serves the same purpose as it does in CS1/2 templates.

Although {{harvc}} can be used as you did for Stratten, it is best used as the target of an {{sfn}} or {{harv}} template and where {{harvc}} is part of the bibliography. So, if we reference Stratten from this sentence with an {{sfnp}} template, clicking on the superscript takes us to Stratten in §References and thence to Stratten and if desired Hahneman in §Bibliography.

The date format was chosen to be parenthetical because CS1 and CS2 wrap dates in parentheses. When nested with those templates in a bibliography {{harvc}} matches the surrounding style. I suppose that it is possible to extend {{harvc}} to {{harvcnb}} so that the template renders dates without parentheses. I'll think on that.

Those 'was cite book' templates can be converted to {{harvc}} which does support |author-link= and |author-mask=. I have neglected to include them in the template's documentation which I shall fix.

References

References

Bibliography

• Flexner, A.; The Carnegie Foundation for the Advancement of Teaching (CFAT) (1910). Medical Education in the United States and Canada Bulletin Number Four (The Flexner Report). Boston: D. B. Updike, Merrymount Press.
  • et al. Introduction. In Flexner Report (1910), p. viii.
• Hahnemann, S. (1833). The Homœopathic Medical Doctrine, or "Organon of the Healing Art". Translation by Devrient, C.H. Annotated by Stratten, S. Dublin: W.F. Wakeman. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)
  • et al. Preface. In Hahnemann (1833), p. iii.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:02, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification on the usage of |display-authors= and |author-link=. With those, I have used {{harvc}} to replace the {{cite journal}} kludges that were repairing the original {{cite book}} missing title errors. I have left the location of these citations as they were regarding placement in either the References section or the Bibliography. Stamptrader (talk) 06:47, 27 April 2015 (UTC)

Alias for url parameter

@Trappist the monk: when using this template, it seems natural to me to use the parameters |contribution= |contribution-url=, because that's how it works for a contribution in {{Citation}}, {{Cite book}} or {{Cite encyclopedia}}. Could you please allow this as an alias for |url=? Thanks. Peter coxhead (talk) 11:15, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

done.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 11:50, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Thanks! Impressive speed of response! Peter coxhead (talk) 16:10, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Request for translator fields

@Trappist the monk: could you add |translator-last= and |translator-first= to the module? There are works that are single volumes but have sections with different authors and translators, e.g. several shorter ancient works compiled into one volume (e.g. of such a volume here and here). –BoBoMisiu (talk) 18:16, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

I'd also appreciate a field for translator, thanks for asking BoBoMisiu. Umimmak (talk) 03:54, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Add parameters to support authoring date.

@Trappist the monk:. Currently |year= is a required parameter and is used for both the authoring year of the contribution and publication year of the |in= work. I would like the |date= parameter added to support a full date and the |publication-year= parameter for the publication year if it is different.

{{harvc |last=Wadleigh |first=C. H. |date=March 1954 |c=Growth of Plants |in=Stefferud |publication-year=1957}}

Wadleigh, C. H. (March 1954) "Growth of Plants". In Stefferud (1957).

Thanks, User-duck (talk) 22:39, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

|year= has nothing to do with an authoring year. |year= is the publication year; nothing more.

I'm not sure that adding an authoring year is a good idea. The purpose of a citation is to help the reader locate a copy of the source that the en.wiki editor consulted for our article. If you, as the editor, consulted Wadleigh in the 1957 Sefferud, that is what you should cite and 1957 is the only date that you need. If you consulted Wadleigh in a March 1954 publication of some sort, then cite that source separately from other sources that are available in Sefferud 1957.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 23:49, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. My request was based on the fact that the common cite templates have |publication-date= with this documentation: "publication-date: Date of publication when different from the date the work was written." Which implies that date or year is the authoring date.

Currently, a majority of my editing is improving references and citations to help readers locate sources. I encountered a Wikipedia article that used the date when the source was previously published in the {{sfn}} instead of the publication of the source cited. I decided to use harvc for several sources since they were chapters in the same book.

Also, "published" has become ambiguous. Journal articles are often published online much earlier than they appear in print and sometimes later. I use the publication info (date/volume/issue) of the printed version since this may help finding a copy of the journal. But this is problematic for articles that are "pre-print".

User-duck (talk) 20:49, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Additional parameters related to url=

I see this template as more of a "cite" template than a "harv" template.

Since this template supports |url=, shouldn't it support |access-date=, |url-status=, |archive-url=, |archive-date=, maybe |via=? -- User-duck (talk) 16:13, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

P.S. Personally, I prefer bracketed dates (parens). The CS1/2 templates bracket the publication date. {{sfnp}}, {{harvp}}, and others bracket the dates. I do not like suggesting this but a new template, {{harvcp}}, might be appropriate. -- User-duck (talk) 16:13, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

This template is neither a cs1|2 template nor is it a harv template but has aspects of both.

Since the primary purpose of this template is to minimize the clutter that comes with citing multiple contributions in a common work, I'm not inclined to make this template have all of that cs1|2 functionality. If those things are necessary for some particular source, use cs1|2. Yeah, you have to repeat bibliographical information but making {{harvc}} more cluttered doesn't seem (to me) beneficial. cs1|2 and {{harvc}} will never be everything to everyone.

I don't understand your postscriptum. {{harvc}} normally renders the value from |year= within parentheses so that it matches cs1|2 – same as {{sfnp}} and {{harvp}}. You can override the default with |nb=yes. cs1|2 does not allow you to override its date formatting.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 16:58, 12 September 2020 (UTC)

I think I understand: |url= and |url-access= only add icons to rendered display, no text.

Seemed logical to have all the functionality related to |url=, not just |url-access=. Kind of all or none.

—Thanks, User-duck (talk) 19:38, 20 September 2020 (UTC)

Aliases for |p= and |pp=

I think all related templates support |page= and |pages= for |p= and |pp=; shouldn't this one, too? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 08:13, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Sync display of common elements of a work

Such as front- and back-matter elements. Eg Foreword should not be quoted.

CS1:

{{cite book|contributor-last=Contributor|ref={{harvid|Author|2021}}|year=2021|contribution=Foreword|title=Title|last=Author}}

gives

Contributor (2021). Foreword. Title. By Author. {{cite book}}: |last= has generic name (help)

HARV:

{{harvc|last=Contributor|year=2021|c=Foreword|in=Author}}

gives

Contributor. Foreword. In Author (2021).

65.88.88.46 (talk) 17:01, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Fast work on that module, thanks. 68.174.121.16 (talk) 20:29, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

nb=yes

Pls also apply to |anchor-year=. 64.18.9.196 (talk) 13:41, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

The date from |anchor-year= renders in the same position as |date= or |year= in cs1|2 renderings (between the list of author names and the title) and renders in brackets to be consistent with adjacent cs1|2 renderings. |nb= is intended to make the short author-date links at the end of a {{harvc}} rendering have the same style as {{harvnb}} and {{sfn}} short author-date links.

—Trappist the monk (talk) 14:32, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Ok, but then you get inconsistent date display within the same harv short:

{{harvc|last=Contributor|anchor-year={{CURRENTYEAR}}a|c=Contribution|in=Author|year={{CURRENTYEAR}}|nb=yes}}

renders

Contributor (2024a). "Contribution". In Author 2024.

64.18.9.196 (talk) 15:00, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

To add, since the default display of {{harvc}} is compatible with the default display in CS1/2, and since the editor actively wants to/has to customize the display in any {{harv}}, it would make sense that the customization be applied uniformly. 65.88.88.68 (talk) 15:39, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

DOI parameter

Could we get a parameter for a DOI for the chapter? Chapter-level DOI identifiers are getting somewhat common and it would something useful to add. Ifly6 (talk) 17:39, 12 August 2022 (UTC)

Simple workaround:

• Smith (2001). A larger work.
• Doe, Jane. "17. A chapter with a DOI". In Smith (2001). doi:10.1000/xyz123

Michael Bednarek (talk) 02:58, 13 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! Ifly6 (talk) 05:18, 21 March 2023 (UTC)

References

Allow options without author

I propose, for special circumstances, to allow using this template without author, using the title (and volume, in case) instead. I made an example at User:Est. 2021/sandbox/citation. Thanks, Est. 2021 (talk · contribs) 20:45, 24 June 2023 (UTC)

How to add additional year-disambiguator when the main work is already year-disambig'd?

I have a multi-volume encyclopedia, where many of the volumes are released in the same year. So they are disambiguated with LC letters 'a', 'b', ... etc. Each of the volumes has contributions from several different authors, but they are not all unique within a single volume. Example:

I'd like to be able to cite {{sfn|Reynolds|1967ma}} or {{sfn|Reynolds|1967mb}}, but it results in Reynolds & 1967ma, p. 2309 and Reynolds & 1967mb, p. 2331 (with the extra "&" after the name). But the reference links work, and hovering over the {{harvnb}} references cause the {{harvc}} entries to highlight blue.

And of course, where the {{harvc}} cites are listed, I get . I'm pretty sure the year disambiguation system only assumes a single lowercase character to create a disambiguator. But how can I disambiguate multiple contributions within a work that itself already has a disambiguated year?

Markup	Renders as
{{harvnb|Reynolds|1967ma|p=2309}}; {{harvnb|Reynolds|1967mb|p=2331}}. <!-- ==References== --> {{fake heading|sub=3|References}} * {{cite book |editor-last= Morgan |editor-first= Willard D. |date= 1967b |volume= 2 |title= The Encyclopedia of Photography – The Complete Photographer: The Comprehensive Guide and Reference for All Photographers |orig-year= First published 1963 |publisher= Greystone Press |location= New York |url= https://archive.org/details/encyclopediaofph02morg/ |url-access= registration |access-date= 2022-04-11 |editor-link= Willard D. Morgan }} * {{cite book |editor-last= Morgan |editor-first= Willard D. |date= 1967m |volume= 13 |title= The Encyclopedia of Photography – The Complete Photographer: The Comprehensive Guide and Reference for All Photographers |orig-year= First published 1963 |publisher= Greystone Press |location= New York |url= https://archive.org/details/encyclopediaofph13morg/ |url-access= registration |access-date= 2022-04-11 }} ** {{harvc |last= Reynolds |first= Charles R., Jr. |year= 1967m |anchor-year= 1967ma |in= Morgan |contribution= Wayne Miller/biography |pp= 2308–2311 |nb= yes |url= https://archive.org/details/encyclopediaofph13morg/page/2308/mode/2up |url-access= registration |ignore-err=yes}} ** {{harvc |last= Reynolds |first= Charles R., Jr. |year= 1967m |anchor-year= 1967mb |in= Morgan |contribution= Lisette Model/biography |pp= 2330–2332 |nb= yes |url= https://archive.org/details/encyclopediaofph13morg/page/2330/mode/2up |url-access= registration |ignore-err=yes}}	Reynolds & 1967ma, p. 2309; Reynolds & 1967mb, p. 2331. References Morgan, Willard D., ed. (1967b) [First published 1963]. The Encyclopedia of Photography – The Complete Photographer: The Comprehensive Guide and Reference for All Photographers. Vol. 2. New York: Greystone Press. Retrieved 2022-04-11. Morgan, Willard D., ed. (1967m) [First published 1963]. The Encyclopedia of Photography – The Complete Photographer: The Comprehensive Guide and Reference for All Photographers. Vol. 13. New York: Greystone Press. Retrieved 2022-04-11. Reynolds, Charles R., Jr. (1967ma). "Wayne Miller/biography". In Morgan 1967m, pp. 2308–2311. Reynolds, Charles R., Jr. (1967mb). "Lisette Model/biography". In Morgan 1967m, pp. 2330–2332.

 — sbb (talk) 22:02, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

I guess I don't really understand why you need to keep the "m" to disambiguate Morgan 1967b from Morgan1967m in order to disambiguate two articles by Reynolds in the same volume? I don't think it would be that strange to have Reynolds (1967a) in Morgan (1967b) and Reyngolds (1967b) in Morgan (1967m) and even less strange to have both Reynolds (1967a) and (1967b) within the same volume of Morgan (1967m)? Umimmak (talk) 22:21, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Perhaps I misunderstand how to use the |anchor-year= parameter, because I believe this is exactly what it's used for. You're right though, in that there's no specific need to keep the "m" for the Reynolds references. I just tested that in my sandbox, and now I understand it clearer, and it works.

But the problem doesn't necessarily go away, when Reynolds has up to half-dozen entries per volume in a 20-volume work. It would be clearer to keep the first letter attached to the volume letter, and serialize his entries with a 2nd letter per-volume. Because when the volumes are all in the same year, the assignment of Reynolds's disambiguation letters is not necessarily in alphabetic order of the volumes; rather, it tends to be temporal as the article is written.  — sbb (talk) 23:00, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Yeah if Reynolds has more than 26 entries published in a single year I'm not sure how to do this then. Umimmak (talk) Umimmak (talk) 23:06, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Another case, that isn't hypothetical, is when the volume editor (Morgan, in this case) also authors multiple individual entries in their works. I have been just citing them directly with {{harvnb|Morgan|1967m|p=1500|loc=[https://example.com "Contribution"]}} -> Morgan 1967m, p. 1500, "Contribution". But that doesn't help to list the contribution in the list of references like the other {{harvc}} entries. Ideally I should be able to refer to multiple Morgan entries within "Morgan 1967a"–"Morgan 1967m" volumes.  — sbb (talk) 23:33, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Refer to a contribution or chapter in a larger work without multiple authors

Hello. Excuse me if this is strikingly simple. I'm trying to correct the contributor list on a previously written citation which looks like this:

• Holmes, Krys (2009). Montana: Stories of the Land. Helena, MT: Montana Historical Society Press. ISBN 978-0-9759196-3-7.
  • . ""Chapter 5"". In Holmes (2009).
  • . ""Chapter 7"". In Holmes (2009).
  • . ""Chapter 13"". In Holmes (2009).

I see that I could rewrite it using harv but I was hoping to keep the use of harvc with the chapters broken out below. I know that I could simply add |last= for each chapter, but that would lead to repeating the author's name on each line, which I'm hoping to avoid.

Is there a way to refer to chapters in a larger work without multiple authors using harvc without repeating the author's name on each line? MountainBarley (talk) 13:07, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Short citations must have author/year and usually a page/location. The standard method, as I understand it, for your situation is simply {{sfn}}:

… something needing a citation, followed by some more.

BTW, please change "Helena, MT" to "Helena, Montana". -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 13:19, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

References

Thanks for the quick reply.

The source I gave above is in the Bibliography of the page. It is cited twelve times using sfn each time with pages and locations. Each of those references don't link to the website but to the bibliography. I am guessing the previous editor did it this way as the source has the book separated into chapters on their website (no master document).

Does it make sense to get rid of the source in the bibliography and move the links up into the references using sfn as you have it in your comment above? 2605:59C8:21B6:5010:94CB:934:2655:8D16 (talk) 13:43, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I accidentally logged out while replying. That's me above. MountainBarley (talk) 13:45, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

The current arrangement of Holmes (2009) citations in the article Montana is clearly unsatisfactory. I suggest indeed that the extra three chapter entries in the "Bibliography" section be removed and, if you wish, incorporate the URL for the chapters into the {{sfn}} construct, as above. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 14:14, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to help! MountainBarley (talk) 14:36, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Discussion at Module talk:Footnotes § loc, at

 You are invited to join the discussion at Module talk:Footnotes § loc, at. Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 02:47, 4 May 2024 (UTC)