Template talk:River Findhorn

The longest rivers of Scotland

As of today's date the List of rivers of Scotland has unsourced data which is copied into Template:River Clyde.

I looked at various stats and unsurprisingly there are differences in measurement, as acknowledged here and there in the Collins Encyclopedia of Scotland, which does not provide a comprehensive listing.

• "Source 1" is the existing unsourced list.
• "Source 2" is the Gazetteer for Scotland (2016) which is supported by the School of GeoSciences, University of Edinburgh and The Royal Scottish Geographical Society
• "Source 3" is Almanac of Scotland which states "All measurements have been recalculated using data supplied by the Scottish Environmental Prptection Agency (SEPA) and ordnance survey maps as published in August 2010. Data obtained from this page prior to September 2010 is obsolete and should not be used." It is not clear who the author(s) are.

All the below are in km.

River	Source 1 Length	Source 2 Length	Source 3 Detail	Source 3 Length
River Tay	188	191	TAY-TUMMEL-GAUR	184.9
River Clyde	176	170	Clyde	168.4
River Spey	172	160	Spey	168.6
River Tweed	156	155	Tweed	161.8
River Dee	137	154	Dee	142.7
River Don	132	131	Don	134.9
River Nith	112	112	Nith	100.8
River Findhorn	101	99	Findhorn	103.2
River Deveron	98	98	Deveron	100.2
River Annan	79	78	Annan	78.3
River Forth	105	63	Forth	135.7
River Ness	Not included	10	NESS-OICH-GARRY	108.9
River Beauly	Not included	26	BEAULY-GLASS-AFFRIC	93.4
River Conon	Not included	19	Conon	88.3
River Dee, Galloway	Not included	19	DEE-KEN-WATER OF DEUCH	88.0
River Lochy	Not included	No data	Lochy-Spean	86.9
River South Esk, Angus	Not included	79	South Esk	84.8

Complications: Source 3 notes for the Forth that measurement is to the "Firth of Forth at the easternmost point of Inch Garvie by the Forth Bridge" whereas Source 2 stops at the tidal waters near Stirling. Our article states that the river is 47km long but provides no source.

Part of the Tweed is in England, which source 3 notes but all seem to ignore for measurement purposes.

It is clear that Source 2 is not using 'from source to sea' measurements, but rather the length of the river that is called 'River x' e.g. "the Beauly River is formed by the meeting of the River Glass and the River Farrar at Struy" and ignores any upstream length. Source 3 however is explicitly from source to sea (and in the case of the Forth perhaps a bit more besides).

Lists:

• All agree that the Tay is longest.
• Source 2 has the Clyde as second longest and the Spey third, but Source 3 reveres the order.
• All agree the Tweed is 4th and the northern Dee 5th but then things get complicated with different orders depending on where the Forth lies, and the inclusion or otherwise of the Highland rivers and southern Dee provided by source 3.

Luckily Source 3 provides fairly detailed notes which help explain some matters such as the Forth/Tay comparison used. It also explains some Source 2 anomalies e.g. why have the Beauly exclude upstream tributaries but not e.g. the Findhorn, which name is not that of its headwater streams? It's a bit of a mess. To be posted at Talk:List of rivers of Scotland soon. Ben MacDui 17:00, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

Possible solution

Use Source 3, which is comprehensive and has the advantage of detailed notes that can be checked if necessary, with the exceptions identified below and indicating both river length and river + estuary length. I have also rounded up/down the fractions. The table would need an explanatory note as drafted.

Various measurements are provided for the lengths of Scottish rivers. The table below distinguished between the river alone and the river plus tidal waters, which many sources use. In all cases the distance is for the longest distance through the catchment area not just the distance of that portion of it which the named river covers excluding upstream tributaries.

River	River Length	River + Estuary Length	Notes
River Tay	155	185	The Tay-Tummel-Gaur from its source, Coirean Lochan by Stob Ghabhar, to a line from Budden Ness to Tentsmuir Point.
River Spey	168.6	168.6	The Spey is the longest stretch of river in Scotland bearing the same name throughout, though that does include Loch Insh.
River Clyde	158	168.4	The river length is measured to Dumbarton Rock, the estuary to the Firth of Clyde at Ardmore Point.
River Tweed	162	162	The lower reaches of the Tweed are in England.
River Dee, Aberdeenshire	143	143
River Forth	113	136	The river is measured to the Kincardine Bridge, the estuary to easternmost point of Inchgarvie by the Forth Bridge.
River Don	135	135
River Ness	109	109	The Ness-Oich-Garry. No account is taken of the Inverness Firth.
River Findhorn	103	103
River Nith	101	101	At low tide, the sea recedes to such an extent that the length of the river is extended by 13 kilometres (8.1 mi).
River Deveron	100	100
River Beauly	82	94	The Beauly-Glass-Affric with the estuary measured to the Kessock Bridge.
River Dee, Galloway	88	88	The Dee-Ken-Water of Deuch. At low tide, the length is extended by 2.9km.
River Conon	70	88	The estuary is measured to Invergordon Harbour/ Newhall Point.
River Lochy	87	87	The Lochy-Spean to Loch Linnhe at mouth of the River Nevis.
River South Esk, Angus	85	85
River Annan	78	78